116 | How To Stay Focused and Motivated Through Rewrites (Pick A Pony)

Diving back into your work after a round of notes can feel overwhelming, especially when we get thoughtful notes that can feel contradictory. How can we possibly incorporate every suggestion into our next draft? Spoiler alert: you can't. Instead, focusing on one ELEMENT of your rewrite can be the ticket to moving forward. Keep it simple; pick a pony.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey, welcome to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. 

Meg: We are professional screenwriters. We've worked together as a team and separately. We've worked on studio and indie films, live action and animation, from my work on Inside Out and Captain Marvel. 

Lorien: To my work in Pixar's story department on Up, Brave, and Inside Out.

We are here to share our insights on the craft of screenwriting and also the life. How to not only survive the ups and downs, but thrive. We want to help you become the best screenwriter you can be, and to reassure you that you are not alone on this journey. 

Hi everyone, welcome back to the Screenwriting Life. 

Meg: I have been especially excited to talk about our topic today. It's a topic that I'm going to call, what I made up, called Pick a Pony. 

Lorien: We are going to be focusing on specific elements in our writing when we revise. And being able to narrow our focus onto those so that we can be homed in on what the rewrite purpose is. Is that right, Meg? 

Meg: Close enough. 

Lorien: Close enough. Why don't you say what it is? 

Meg: No, that's totally right. I'm just teasing. No, I'm just teasing. You have to get disciplined when you're going to rewrite. That's what I want to talk about. You got to pick your pony. You can't jump off halfway through the race and go on to a different pony. Okay. 

So, but first we're going to be talking about our weeks or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. Lorien, how was your Emmy week? 

Lorien: It was so awesome. I mean, getting nominated for an Emmy is like kind of surreal and really cool. And, but it didn't really sink into what it was until it was like the day of, and I like got my hair done with my daughter. She got her hair done. We got our makeup done. It was very cute. You know, you wear a fancy dress that I got from Rent the Runway, by the way, because let's be realistic about buying a really fancy dress and then never wearing it again. Well, for me, that was the practical decision I had to make. I splurged on hair and makeup, which I'm glad I did, but going to the Emmy ceremony, it felt real. Like I didn't know what it was because it was the first children's and family Emmy awards. And so I kind of didn't know what I was going to expect, but like everyone was so fancy and it was like a real awards. And I got to see everyone from tab time, which was so awesome.

It was like "the gang 's all back together!" And we were seated like smack in the middle, like the front three rows of the orchestra. So I was right there for everything. And what was so cool was getting to see like how award shows work when you're there, as opposed to what you're seeing on TV, it was really fun. It was really well produced show. You know, Lawrence Fishburne gave LeVar Burton the Lifetime Achievement Award for his work on Reading Rainbow. And I was sitting right next to Sesame Street crowd, you know, they won in my category. And I was like, well, losing to Sesame Street is not the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I think that's pretty extraordinary. It was really cool. 

And I got to talk to people and everyone there was just so excited. I mean, probably because I was so excited. I had no chill, like, "this is so awesome. What are you here for?" And then people will be like, "I'm here for this show!" I'm like, "I've never heard of that!" And they're like, "I've never heard of your show either! Hurray!" It was just really fun and very cool. And I got my picture taken on the red carpet, and I got to see some people that I haven't seen in a while that were also nominated, and that was really cool, people from Pixar. But yeah, it was really cool. 

And so I wasn't going to drink at all because I had to drive my car home afterwards, but I was like, okay, I'll have like a little bit of champagne at the very beginning. So I take two sips fall over a little bit and accidentally throw my drink all over Jack McBrayer's feet. So he was the host that evening, and I was like, okay, so I'm not going to drink anymore. Like it's a bad... it's a sign. And yeah, it was really fun. My daughter got to meet the actresses from The Babysitter’s Club, and she saw the actress who played Andy Mack. So, she played with the young girl who won for her role in Punky Brewster, the remake, and like these kids are just out there playing in these, like, ridiculously fancy party dresses. It was really cute. 

I had such a great time. It was really... I'm having a hard time with my fraud syndrome because I was nominated for an Emmy for a series I ran, and I was at the Emmy's. And so now it's like, “Oh, wait, maybe I do know what I'm doing a little bit.”

Meg: You didn't just run that series. You didn't just run that series. I'm sorry. I understand what you have to say, but I don't, you did not just run that series. You created that series. That is yours. I'm sorry, but you are the creator of that series. Maybe not the concept, but. 

Lorien: Anyway. 

Meg: Okay. 

Lorien: But it was really... getting that external validation was really powerful. And yes, right like they're complicated and all the things right but. You know, I struggle a lot with external validation and having the confidence come within, but I got to say getting nominated for a fancy award really is some external validation that really does kick your fraud syndrome in the ass.

So I'm riding on this high. It's been a couple of days. We'll see how long it lasts. 

Meg: But I'm so glad you're enjoying it because this is the good part. This is the good part. 

Lorien: So fun. I wore flats, so I was comfortable. Like it was really fun. Like I just, the whole thing was so fun. I mean, of course my daughter had a huge blood sugar crash right before we left. She had a big blood sugar crash right when we got there. It was like, all right, we'll just deal with it. Drink your juice. Let's go. You know, it's just part of life too, right? Even that stuff didn't bum me out too much, but oh no. I mean, Meg, you were at the Oscars. You were nominated for an Oscar, and you've won other awards. It's like. It's so crazy. It's cool and amazing and surreal and fun, right? 

Meg: It's funny though because like you and I walked on the red carpet beaming and smiling really wide and giggling and just having the best time and then the actors come and they don't smile and they just stare smokily at the camera like, "I'm just so bored, I'm just so bored," right? And you're like," oh my god, have fun!" Until you see the pictures and then you're like, oh, oh, right. Oh, right. That actually looks a lot better. 

Lorien: I actually, I'm not sad that I can't find the pictures because I was doing the like smiley, and then I did a whole starfish pose right through my arms and my leg. So that picture exists somewhere and I hope it never makes it out.

Meg: Ok TSL listeners, find it, post it on Facebook: starfish pose on the red carpet! 

Lorien: Or I do hope it makes out, because that is exactly like a physical manifestation of how it felt to be there. I made the photographer laugh. Like, anyway, it was so much fun. It was great too, because the shows there, some of them, most of them, all of them were so good. You know, Sweet Tooth and Heartstopper won a bunch of stuff and Babysitter's Club, you know, Babysitter's Club was the final category. It won 'Best Teen, Outstanding Teen show,' I think. And it was the showrunner and then all the, it was just a big group of women up on stage and she called it out. And it was just like, what a great way to end this show, right? Just these beaming, talented, you know, gorgeous people up on stage, you know, sort of getting to showcase their show. It was really cool. 

Meg: So cool. 

Lorien: So apologies if you're listening and you were there and I didn't call it your show. Your show is also awesome. Yeah. But anyway, so Meg, how was your week?

Meg: I am probably at the opposite end of that stick. And it's not a bad week, not the opposite in terms of good or bad, just in terms of granular trenches, writing up to your elbows in it, kind of literally like, what the hell am I doing? I don't know. I talk a lot in the show about emerging writers, especially when they're doing rewrites, they're not blowing it up enough. They're not starting with clean documents. They're not re outlining, re carding, which I still believe, you know, do that for five drafts at least, I still believe that. Sometimes in your project, you also get to the point where it's starting to solidify now, but that doesn't mean you still don't have big notes that have to start being worked in more surgical ways in more, so you're still getting tons of notes, but it's holding.

But you still have to track these larger things and deal with organizing disparate notes. And you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's a time that you have to be even more inventive. In terms of you're in a confined space now, like blue sky go crazy. What could be this? It could be that! Like, that's super fun. But then this other stage comes in. I don't know how many drafts, five, how many drafts? I don't know. 10 drafts in, I have no idea where you're like, okay, pieces are holding and I have to get super surgical. And what is the solution to this right here that answers six questions? Like it can't just answer one. No, it has to answer six of these notes. And it has to be entertaining and it has to fit with everything else. And I can't just throw something in because that thing I just threw in will hit later. And so you're trying to get really surgical not in every scene. Some scenes are completely blowing up, but sometimes you have to see the ripples back and forth of what you're doing, and you have to hold it all in your head as you're doing it. Especially if you are working with a director or a producer you know, or you're in a TV room. Things are being talked and thrown out, and you've gotta hold it all in your head as you're trying to come up with these ideas.

So, my brain is tired. I go home at night and stare at the walls and just, it's really tiring. It's really physically tiring. It's so stupid because you're just sitting there, but the brain power, I'm not getting skinny either. Damn it. Why does not the brain power take the fat too? I don't understand it, but. 

Lorien: You need the fat. We need the fat to feed our brain. Carbs feed our brain. It's science. 

Jeff: I love that. 

Lorien: It's science. 

Meg: It's science. I do. Yes. I wish I was taking more of it, but it doesn't work though. When you're also eating cookies out of stress, they kind of, you know, it doesn't really... but it just discipline and it can be overwhelming in terms of that tracking in your head and tearing.

So I'm kind of going back to what I've done in the past, on Inside Out, and I've actually done on every movie I've worked on, I think, where I just start charting. Okay, given all of that, given these are the solutions that are on the table, let's just do a chart, like, like for Inside Out 1, let's say, okay, here's Joy, every sequence she's in, and what is happening to her character. Okay, what's the main relationship? Okay, it's Joy and Sadness in the first movie. And you remember this, Lorien, and then I tracked Joy and Sadness' relationship through the whole movie. And so I track different things to make sure they're evolving and Joy's staying active in that case. So that's kind of where I am now is trying to get it out of my head and out of these kinds of notes, documents and into actually a chart of, can I see the ripples back and forth?

And the last thing, which is in its own work, it's just, it's creative and yet using your left logic brain at the same time. And then I guess the last thing I'd say is I had this experience where I was up at Pixar this past week and I had a moment of, you know, I was tired in a good tired, it's kind of like after a great workout where you're like, okay, good work today, but I'm tired. And I was walking through the atrium and I thought, "holy shit, I'm at Pixar," which is ridiculous. I've been there so many times, but I was just like, "Oh my God, I'm at Pixar. I'm a writer at Pixar. Holy shit.” And it just was this reminder. When I was a producer and decided to become a writer or—forget that, when I came to Hollywood and was an assistant at an agency, I never in a million trillion years would have imagined that I would be walking through the atrium of Pixar as a Pixar writer in a billion years. And it just reminded me that the universe can dream a lot bigger than you can. And sometimes it's just allowing it to happen and taking those risks and putting in the work because it needs to know you're committed. Crazy things can happen. 

 I just had one of those wonderful moments of waking up to getting my nose out of the foxhole, or the tree not right and being like, "Oh, right, this is pretty awesome. And I there's incredibly talented, interesting people around me, and we laughed until we cried today." it was kind of, it was a nice moment and re-energized me.

But I just want to say to everybody starting out, if you put the work in and you put your nose to the grindstone, and you push yourself into the lava, and all the stuff we talk about, and do the work you can't imagine where you're going to end up, you might end up on the carpet of the Emmys. So, I think that's let the universe dream for you. You do the work. 

Lorien: Oh, I just wanted to say I, I think that's such great advice, but also think back to what you wanted and who you believe you could be when you were a kid. When I was in high school, I knew I was gonna win an Oscar. For acting, of course, but like I could see myself at an award show winning something for being creative, and then I lost it. I lost the belief that I was going to be able to do that just because of all the noise and the trauma and then the jobs and the work and the grind. And so I think back to who you thought you were going to be when you were some age as a kid, like what's that version of yourself connect back into that and who that person was. I mean, that always helps for me. Who did I imagine I was going to be before I lost faith in that imagining. 

Meg: Yeah, I was 10 when I wrote my first short story and wanted to send it to the teen magazine because I just wanted to tell stories and reach people with my stories. But then I gave it up because it was too hard, and what did I have to say? And I have no stories and I was too scared and many other reasons. But it did. It was a little seed that was planted as a beacon long ago. So it's really great advice, and how it's going to happen. You said being an actor, that may not be where the universe takes you. It may be in a preschool TV show, which is reaching children, which is incredibly powerful and sacred work. So you just, you don't know what it's going to look like. But it's really important to pick your beacon and set your sails towards what you want, because this town will tell you what you want and take you different directions.

It's something you have to do a lot, remind yourself, okay. What do I, what is it that I want? Where do I want to be? Where am I giving my life energy? So Jeff, I think you have some reviews. 

Jeff: Yeah. You know, as always we are so grateful to our TSL community. The reason we do it is for all of you. So. One of the best ways that you can talk back to us and help grow our show is by writing us a five-star review on Apple podcasts.

It's a fun chance for us to connect with you and see your beautiful writing, but it's also a chance to bump our show up in the algorithm, which helps more people find the show, which is, of course, why we started the show was to create a community and help as many people as possible. So help us help you help us help you by writing an Apple podcast review.

I'm going to start with this review from second son, first draft who says "love the lava. Very grateful to have found this podcast at this point in my life, you all have inspired me to write my very first screenplay, which is the story of how my parents met and there's plenty of lava to navigate." Ooh, I want to read that or see it on the screen, rather. "I'm wrapping up the first draft now and eager to share it with the world. Thank you for everything that you do for the writing community." Very exciting. 

Meg: That's awesome. 

Jeff: Neo Jurassic says "easily the best screenwriting podcast out there. This podcast is easily my favorite among the many regarding screenwriting and easily in my top 10 podcasts overall. I haven't yet found one as well rounded, focused, holistic, and precise as this one. Intellectually or emotionally, this show is incredibly accessible to anyone with even a passing interest in screenwriting. It's a wonderful review. It's like hitting all the goals that we kind of set out for this show. So thank you."

And then, finally, SFX Christina says "great podcast. I'm not a writer, but I am a creative in the film industry and have found this podcast very helpful in expanding my knowledge of how the industry works and understanding of the creative process recommend for any creative looking to expand their understanding of the film industry and the process of storytelling."

That's really cool. The thing I love about that is yes, we are a screenwriting podcast, but we do kind of try to create a tone and a feel that could be helpful for any creatives. So to hear, I'm assuming this person works in special effects, her username. And I'm assuming it's her cause the name is Christina. So I'm guessing that this is an SFX specialist in our business. So first of all, I love a female special effects person. That's very cool. And you're just one of many who listens to the show, who might not be a writer or not be a writer yet, but we love you all. 

Meg: Yeah. I would love for people who aren't screenwriters or TV writers to give us a review because I you're walking up and talking to me about it. I've had novelists talk to me about it and playwrights and animators and graphic novelists and I do that is our goal is to talk about creativity and the life of an artist. And I do think the craft of storytelling can translate into many different mediums. So if you're out there and you're listening and you're listening for a different discipline, let us know. It's really fun. 

Lorien: To that, Meg, you said earlier in 'adventures in screenwriting' where you chart a character and their development. And when I was in the art department on Brave, they make color scripts for the movie. So like each sequence has a certain feel and we would do time of day charts and weather charts sort of tracking. How the movie feels in the background like sort of every aspect of it to support the story, and that is something you can do to break it down if the if you get sort of distracted by the plot. And you're like, this is what happens instead of this is how my character is turning, you can look at it as weather or colors or feelings somehow that describe how that you can articulate perhaps, if you're not quite there. Because sometimes I look at something I'm like, I don't know what the turn is in the scene, but if I can figure out like what the turn is. Like how it makes me feel like a movie scene that I can relate to like, "Oh, this is what it's like," or a color or the weather or something that can also be something that can help you sort of look at the thing as a big picture. You can look at these color scripts in the art of books, or I'm sure they have them online, but it's what is the tone or mood, the feeling of the movie, in just a slightly different bigger picture way.

Meg: Yeah, absolutely. That's really a cool way to think about it. I try to look at the chart as, you know, what's changing here, what action are they taking, what behavior, what choice were they given and what choice did they make. Especially for the main character, so that they're driving the movie and you can see if they're active or not. If everyone, If in every sequence, you're watching them listen, watch, you know, respond to what someone else did. You can quickly see, oh, first of all, no actor's going to want to do it. But most, more importantly, they're just an inactive main character. 

Lorien: So I think this relates to the topic a little bit, like picking a pony, right? So, I'm wondering if we can, as an example to what you're talking about with breaking it down, can we pick, like, a scene from inside out? And, like, sort of, how would you do that? How would you break it down? Because there's the plot, there's what happens, there's the choice that the character makes.

Meg: In terms of my charting? Yeah, like what is that I would just put--it's super easy. I mean, it's not brain surgery. I actually was asked to do this when I work for Jodie Foster, because we were given a script that she was interested in, but she felt like her character, as an actor, she was feeling that her character was not evolving and was repeating. And as an actress, she doesn't want to repeat in a scene what she's already explored in a different scene. And she felt her character wasn't active enough. So she said to me, take this script and chart it in one column. Just tell me the action of the scene what's happening. And then tell me what's happening to my character, what choices is she making, how is she feeling, whatever is the predominant thing in that scene for my character.

And you could just see it like a flat line going through the script that she wasn't, now, it's not to say, it's not black and white. There were moments of hills and valleys, but, you know, for her, for an actor, it had to be everything. What is happening? What am I playing in the scene? If it's the same thing, I just played two scenes ago. And if it is too simple, I just played two scenes ago, why? Did I not learn my lesson? You'd have to give a reason to the actress of, why are you playing the same want exactly at the same situation, the same character moment that you just played?

And again, I'm not saying that can't happen, but you better know why. So, yeah, I did it with Joy and Sadness because the main relationship is also super important. Is it evolving or is it just repeating itself over, and over what? And it can be sometimes, especially in a relationship, it can be small and it may not be even something that audience is catching right away, but you know, as the creator, like, and sometimes it's large, like in Inside Out, I would just chart where is Joy learning her thematic lesson from Sadness, you know, so there's super obvious ones like when Bing Bong loses his rocket, you know, and Sadness sits down and basically does what my preschool taught me to do with my children, which is don't tell them how they feel and don't fix it. Just mirror back to them what they're feeling so that they learn to self, first of all, learn what their emotions are. They're allowed to have them. They're healthy. And they can learn to regulate this. And part of learning self-emotional regulation is just that you are allowed to have your feelings. So Sadness sits down and says, "you lost your wagon, and you loved your wagon," just repeating what he has already said and just feeling it and being empathetic with him.

And Joy's kind of at first like, "Oh my God, don't sit down. We got to go. Why are you doing that? Let's just fix it." Right? Because her way didn't work. Like she tried to get Bing Bong going and it didn't work. So now Sadness is walking in and she's witnessing Sadness do it. And I think there's a little moment. Sometimes I forget what's actually in the movie and what we had in Borders. I don't know if that ever happens to you, Lorien, but. 

Lorien: Oh, yeah. 

Meg: There's a little moment where Sadness is like- 

Lorien: I still don't know what Up is about. I still don't know what Up is about because I watched it for four years. So I was like, wait, that's the version that we...?.

Meg: I know, right? 

Lorien: Yeah, that works. 

Meg: So in the scene, Joy goes from, "Oh my God, please don't do that. You're being annoying. That's going to take forever." To witnessing: it worked. It got him going. It made him feel seen, let him cry. And now he's moving on and doing what we need him to do to take us forward. And there's a moment where she's like, huh. What did you do? And then she just gets distracted and is like, "Oh my God, let's move on." Because she's not learned her lesson yet. It's just a piece. You know, so it's as soon as it's very small things like in like we were tracking it and I realized, "oh, in abstract thought it has to be Sadness who has the answer to get out of here," right? So that's a small moment, like Sadness has the key to get them out of abstract thought, or it's a bigger moment where in the train and they realize, "Hey, we have the same favorite memory. How is that possible? And we're so different from each other." So it's just tracking that relationship and how it's helping her shift, her perception of Sadness. And then you have to track Sadness too, because she has her own little claiming arc, right? So she's not going to be in every scene shifting, maybe the way that joy or that relationship is, but she is shifting and it's a lot to keep in your mind and sometimes when you get in a church, it's a lot easier to see.

Lorien: I love a chart. Big fan. 

Meg: I love a good chart. 

Lorien: Color coding. I love a good chart. 

Jeff: This seems closely tied to character pulls too, right Meg? Because if you know your character starting and ending, it gives you at least the vision to build the tent around it, sort of. 

Meg: Yeah, I know she's going to start here and believe this, and by the end she's going to have a completely different 180, because she's a transformative character, idea of herself, the world, what she did to create this whole thing by her mistaken belief, which we have to believe as the audience too, or you don't have The catharsis with them, of course. So yeah, the polls start to form it. Yeah. 

Lorien: This is about earning it, right? This is what we're talking about, earning it, that every little scene adds up the movement. I think about Scrooge, where Scrooge starts and where Scrooge ends are such massively opposing polls. But we're with him on that journey. So we believe it by the time he gets there. He's been scared. He's been, you know, remodeled, you know, the past, present, future, all the, everybody knows the story, but like we're earning he's earning the catharsis, so we feel like, oh, that's believable. If a ghost visited me and did those things, I might change that much too, you know, so it's maybe, probably not you know, in terms of like the charting that like each moment matters and he doesn't repeat. 

Meg: You can get lost in the fun of it like, oh, this seems so funny or the entertainment or the "Oh my God," the plot twist. And I'm not saying all of that is important. It's super important, but it's not the base of it. It's not going to hold the building up. You're right. Like if that character isn't shifting and I don't know why we're in this scene. And if I don't want what they want in the scene, you're really dead in the water. You're just dead in the water. As much as you don't relate to Scrooge, you can relate to "yeah, I don't want these ghosts scaring the shit out of me." Like, I get it. I don't want it either. Like I get it, like I'm with 

him in his want. 

Lorien: The wish fulfillment though is getting to go, like he gets to go see his past, right. There's wish fulfillment in it that you're like, want him to go to the it's such an interesting structure. Anyway. I love Scrooge stories though. I'll watch every single adaptation ever. So I love them. 

Meg: Pick a pony topic. Let me just, okay. I call it, pick a pony. I don't even know where it came from. It just came out of my mouth one day. It comes from teaching. It comes from doing consults. It comes from, I just did this lab at Hedgebrook in which we talked about it a lot. And it can come when you're in the room with the director or a co-writer or a producer or in a TV room and TV slightly different, I would think. But in terms of features where especially if you're with other people, a director, a producer in animation, there'd be a head of story, whoever, whatever, you kind of, at some point, as you're churning up all the different solutions to your rewrite, you could do this, you could do that. And you're putting things on the table at some point, you have to say, okay, we've got all this, all these solutions on the table. We've had fun, right? Blue sky in this and what could, what it could be, but now you got to pick something. Because not all of these things are going to work together, they're just not, right? 

So sometimes, and when I'm working with somebody, it would just be "okay in your next draft, you and I are going to start talking and I want you to start picking things so that I know how to help you and how to get you to that," cause if you're not picking, we're gonna do it unconsciously, right? I'm gonna think we're doing something that we're not doing. Or I find that people don't want to pick because they want it all. Number one, you want it all. Or number two, it's scary to pick because guess what? It's harder. It's just harder.

If you cannot throw any tone in that you want, if you can't shift main characters in the middle of your movie, if you can't change, you have a bazillion relationships for me to follow, meaning you're just throwing shit in all the time, it's harder. It's much, much harder to say, "okay, I'm going to pick a pony in terms of genre." What genre are you doing? Okay. Or I'm going to pick a pony in terms of tone. How? Okay. It's a comedy. Okay. That's not, we're not at tone yet. That's just too broad. What kind of comedy, right? Are we doing Cohen brothers comedy? Are we doing Adam Sandler comedy? Like what? Start giving me tone references. Okay, that's the comedy we're doing. 

One that I find is really gets wiggly is main relationship. What is the main, what is the core relationship of this movie? I am not saying that you can have a million relationships. You can do Avengers, right? But if there is a core relationship to Avengers, there's a main core relationship that is rooting and anchoring that down. And so many times in early drafts, we're just shifting around and trying to figure it out. And it surprises us often. Shoot, I don't even think I thought this was the main relationship, but it turns out that's the prize and what I'm trying to save, and it's the kid standing next to her, that is actually the main relationship. And you don't know that until you pick the wrong one as your pony, and you're outlining it or just beat sheeting it, and following that relationship and realizing, oh, that just petered out. Because when I get to this part of the story, that isn't the main relationship, right? It's this person. And so then you go back.

Okay, pick the other pony. Be cheated out. Just do really big movements of that relationship, and the story is prismed through that main relationship. What's that movie? And they're all different movies, right? Really, they are. And it just helps me so much when I'm working with writers to know those things.

And it can get very complicated when it's a true story because people will start to say, well, all these things did happen. How do I pick a pony? And I'm like, well, I'm not looking for a documentary, right? I'm looking for your artistic vision and story using this real-life experience or thing that happened as the paint.

So you really got to pick a pony if it's a real-life thing. Like, even if you've been researching a real-life woman and you find out somebody else is doing the same woman, I'm like, "well, they're going to have different ponies because you're different people." But, and if they're just doing quote unquote her life, that's not it either. So it really gets important. It gets really important for ensembles. Super important 

Lorien: Can I ask a question about that? When you say pick a pony. So let's say I'm working on an Eleanor Roosevelt movie. And so are you. And I really want to investigate her later years, right, like the last 10 years of her life. And you want to investigate like the first years when she was in the White House. Is that what you mean, pick a pony when you're doing something? 

Meg: That's going to be, that's going to be the first, biggest, broadest choice, right? To me, that's more the race. What race are you running? I'm going to run the race here in her, this part of her life. And you're going to run the race over here. They're different races, right? But now what pony are you picking? Like, what if we were both doing Eleanor Roosevelt in her later life? 

Lorien: And I want to write about regret.

Meg: Right? Okay. So the theme is starting to tell me, and what's the main relationship of your movie about regret?

Lorien: Her best friend, who's dead.

Meg: So you're going to follow the relationship with her best friend and explore the theme of regret. We're not quite at a theme yet. What do you have to say about regret is really the theme, but we're picking ponies. We're getting there closer.

I'm going to pick her end of her life and talk about a marriage and what is a marriage. And her friend's gonna be in it, and all that stuff that you're gonna do is gonna be in it, but it's going to be very different. 

Lorien: Because I want to write about friendship. 

Meg: And I want to write about this marriage, and how the hell did it survive both of them being so powerful, so strong, under such pressure, world events. So many things, like I have so many questions about the marriage and I'm so curious about it, right? I think the end of her, that part of her life really explores it and all the facets. But again, I'm not at a theme yet, but I'm picking a pony. It's going to be him, right? That doesn't mean there's not a thread with her friend that's affecting the marriage prism.

There's not an affair. There is not her secretary who was with her whole life. All of those people are in it. But the core spine of it, the pony we're on is the marriage. You know, like if you look at there's an old movie that I love that Fred Schepisi did that Meryl Streep and Sam Neil are in.

It's an Australian dingo. Got my Baby. What's that called? 

Lorien: One called maybe "The Dingo Ate Your Baby." Isn't that one? 

Meg: My baby movie? Which, sorry, I don't mean to be flippant about that horrible experience that those people had, but it was a true life experience. But you start to realize, oh, this is about the marriage. That can the marriage survive this. The doubts of what happened and blah, blah, blah. So, that's what, that's the pony we're picking, right? Like, it's just so important for an ensemble, right? Because a lot of people think they're doing an ensemble, but the more I talk to them, I'm like, "oh, you're doing a movie about friendship. And it's these two women." Yes, all the guys are there and all the stuff in the careers and the blah, blah, blah is there. But really, what happens if the focus of this is these two women. 

First of all, now we're gonna get much better actresses. Because they don't have a quarter of a part. They know they're the core of it. They know that it's structuring around them. They know it. Trust me, they know it. Versus, I'm one of ten people, right? And even The Glass Onion, which is crazy all over the place plot wise. There's a million characters. I'm not going to tell you anything because I won't give it away. It's super fun. It's just super fun. It's just really fun. There's plot twists and, you know, it's Ed Norton, right? He's so great, you know, and they're also great. There's such great actors and you're having so much fun, but there is a core relationship. 

Now, because it's one of these mysteries. It's a bit hidden, the core relationship, but that's okay. The writer knows it's there. That's all I need to be. You know what I mean? It's not like you're going to in the first five pages, announce it with neon lights. I don't care. You need to know it though, if I was developing with you, I'd be like, "Oh, that's the main relationship. I get it. Okay. That's why this whole thing is going to spin this way."

 So the main relationship to me is a really important choice. Again, just for a version, half the time I'm working with people who I'm just like, "Hey, pick a pony for this version." Now, Andrew would say to us at Pixar, "it's an exercise." Right. So just don't freak out about it. Do this exercise.

Meg: And, you know, when he would give us different things to do, I'm saying the same thing, pick a pony for three days and just see what happens. And does it spark, does it start to have heat and fire and ideas are popping? It's probably a good pony. If it gets really weighted and heavy, you just don't care.

And it doesn't feel like avoidance that you don't care. Careful, be very careful. Sometimes it's starting to burn. So your brain's like, this is boring. But if it truly is just not of interest, you're probably got the wrong pony, even though your brain told you that is what would sell, and your brain told you that's what people are going to be interested in. And your brain told you all kinds of things, but when it doesn't matter, right, it doesn't matter. Cause a lot of times when you get notes, this can get very confusing because they're actually picking ponies for you sometimes. And you're like, "Oh, that's so exciting. And that's a pony. And I can ride that right through this story and that'll work." and then you go to write it and you're like, yeah, I don't know how to do this. And then you start throwing all your shit in again, because you don't want to ride that pony. 

So suddenly you're like, "but there's this really great little side story over here with her kid. And let's just put that pony in and let's put this pony in with her friend." And suddenly you're back to mush. Right. And that just tells you, Oh, that's really interesting to know that did not. That point, he couldn't ride the race. So even though it was a great note and a great idea, it didn't work for you. So stop, go back. I mean, you've got to really ride it all the way to the end. Beat sheet it out to the end. Cause maybe something in the end will click and you'll realize, Oh, I didn't even understand this relationship. Now I do once I got to the end. 

So that's kind of what I mean by pick a pony for versions. Cause I think people also think, Oh, I'm going to write one draft, three drafts, five drafts. And I'm like, no, you're writing versions, like, write a version to get that base and that core of why people go to the movie for a relationship. So what relationship am I going to love so much? And it'll change. It'll just change. 

Lorien: This was really coming up for me when I was adapting a book because the book is first person narrative. And it's not structured like a movie. It's not act one, act two, act three. It's incidents. And there's all these amazing things that happen and that the character does. And I had to figure out what the main relationship was. I had to create some moments in that because it wasn't quite there in the story that I wanted to tell. I had to pick a very specific point, the main relationship in it, but also like what I wanted to write about specifically with all these incidents with this story. And I didn't want to end it like the book ended. Like I had to do that, too. So I had to earn that and change things, but it was really hard because I love this character's voice. I love all the little things that happen. So it was like, "Oh, but I'm In order to do this, I have to not have that really cool scene where she volunteers for medical experiments," you know, it's like, but it wasn't serving the larger story I was trying to tell. And that was really hard. Sort of going through and picking and then changing and giving her dialogue to other people in order to make a scene work like that stuff was hard. 

Meg: Well, it takes incredible discipline. It is incredible discipline to be able to do it, and I think writers who have been through this enough have got that as a tool in their toolbox of that discipline of, "no, I'm just, I got to stay on this line. I got to stay here and see where it goes." Like I said, sometimes it'll work and sometimes it won't, sometimes it'll explode. You just don't know. But that's the discipline of trying it right. And maybe be cheating it out and then doing some random writing with them to see what kind of sparks you get. 

I mean, I will say that I really prefer, even though it's much more work for me, I do prefer labs where we're doing homework versus I love a lab where I get to talk to somebody for two hours and give them notes. It's worthwhile to get a lot of different notes, but it's deeper work to know, okay, now you picked a pony, go do this for your homework. And I found when the last lab I did, for some of the writers, it immediately challenged some, and some immediately fell in, ducks to water, just dependent on where they were at their story, and they were going, but then a couple of, you know, a couple of them, I started to suspect, wait, you're going backwards now that there is safety in the chaos.

That discipline that I'm talking about can be so hard that your brain is like, no. I'm not going to do that. I miss my stuff. What you said, Lorien. Like, I miss that scene where she does this. And then you've got to parse out, okay, wait a minute. Is there fear in here? Of this pony, that it's going to bring you to lava? It's going to expose something that actually, if that's what the story is, you need to expose it. Or is it just not your story? And it was notes that were given. And the only way you find that out is you do it and you get really honest with yourself about it. But I really like that. 

Jeff: Self-sabotage is one of those, too. Sorry to interrupt.

Meg: No, that's good. Yeah. 

Jeff: You know, people will get on the pony that they know is going to crash into the wall so that they can tell themselves they're not a writer. 

Meg: Yes, don't do that either. But you know what? I can't tell you how many ponies have crashed and turned out not even to be ponies at all. That's just part of it. 

Lorien: So I feel like I have to tell this story now. When I was about three years old, four years old, we lived on a little farm, and I had two ponies. T pony was a little Shetland pony and Spice. So T pony was a sweetheart. I loved her. She would eat grapes out of my hand. I'd ride her bareback around the little paddock yard. Always knew when I rode the T pony, I was going to have a great little day. When I got on Spice that asshole horse pony was a brown horse and she just bucked me off would chase after me. One time she backed me up against like one of those poles like a rebar and like scraped me up against it. I love T pony, but I always was trying to ride Spice. I was always trying to get her to do what I wanted her to do, and she never ever would. Cause she had this crazy mind of her own and sometimes, you know, just listening to talk, I feel like, "Oh, I can write T pony. I know what that ride's going to be," but I know if I write on Spice, she's not going to do what I want to do. If I pick that pony, it's going to be this wild ride. She's going to throw me into the barbed wire and bite my hand, and it's going to be painful. I'm going to be scratched and bruised and trampled, but it's a much better story than I got him a little pony and I rode around and I got off. 

Meg: Well, and often those horses, when you finally do become friends, there's no loyal, there's no more loyal, right. There is fire in this choice of pick a pony, and it does start to illuminate the shorts, you know, the shortcomings of your story or what you've been avoiding by throwing all this stuff in there.

And a lot of it is intellectual. Well, I need that in there for the trailer moment. And I need that in because somebody told me that's what's sellable. And I need that because I need it to be an indie film, and I needed to be daring, and crazy, and risky, and like nothing that's ever been seen before. No one's ever said that to me, but you know what I mean? That there's a whole other spectrum. Sometimes it's all about what will sell. And sometimes it's all about what is kind of authentically indie, right. Which can also be as big a dodge as what will sell in my opinion, because I've done it. So, yeah, it's a simple concept but we decided to give it a whole show because it's a powerful thing to do, and it will happen and it's a hard thing to do, and it's a disciplined thing to do.

 It's funny because, like, when we hear pitches, I really think what you're telling them right up the bat is what pony you're on and what race we're in, right? We're in this kind of genre. It's this kind of tone. And it's about a woman who does this and meets this guy. And like, what are we starting to do? We're starting to say, okay, we're in this race. We're on this pony. We're going that direction. This is the main relationship. That's really what they need to know where the hell we are, right? What race are we in and what pony are we on so that they can hear the story and get it. So. And this is what we do on the Patreon with our workshop, because sometimes you just have to hear it be done, and you can start to hear, it's a really kind of weird brain thing, because you're going to think you know what I'm talking about, but until you do it, you kind of don't.

So you have to take it to your work. I'm going to say this right now, everything we talk about on this podcast, be it me and Lorien, be it with Jeff and what he's experienced, be it with our guests: if you don't take it and apply it to your work, even just as an exercise for an hour, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't change your brain and you won't fully grok it. You won't fully deeply get it until you do it. And I can't believe that I'm still at this late stage of my life doing things where I'm like light bulbs going off. And I'm like, Jesus, how did I write that? And not know that? Jesus! Like literally I was literally like the other day, like, "Oh man, this thing we've been working, on this strand, that's not going to work." Like it's just part of that, of the process of blindness. Blindness is part of the process. And you just have to start making choices and be disciplined in order to start to see it. 

Lorien: Which just sounds hard, Meg. "Make choices, be disciplined, do the work." 

Meg: It's super rewarding. I wish I could bring my writers on here right now because watching them get it and through, go through homework and some start to doubt and some change ponies and all kinds of stuff happened. But I'm telling you, they got a lot out of it because they, the discipline, it took them and they were working, like we'd work in the morning and then they'd go and write or vice versa. I can remember now. You know, it really did help them get writing at a deeper level, right? This discipline. Yes, it's harder, but it's so rewarding. It's so rewarding. 

Jeff: One thing I like to think about is, and I might be stealing this from John August, but he's a pretty smart guy. So I feel fine lifting that from him. 

Meg: Now we have to give him a quarter. Okay. Go ahead. 

Jeff: Friend of the show, John August, who gave a listen to his episode. It's great. But he talks about how, as a writer, you're making a contract with your audience. So when you write your first act, you're sort of teaching your audience what your film is, and you're shaking their hand and saying, "this is what the film is." And of course you'll surprise them and there'll be twists, but the overall essence of what you're showing the audience, your movie, you have to deliver on. 

So if you switch ponies mid film, not only are you disservicing your own work and your own theme, but you're kind of cheating your audience out of what you promised them, the contract you made with them. And I've been watching some big studio movies lately that have had some pony picking problems. And it's kind of frustrating when all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, like what movie am I watching now?" So I just think like, even to honor the audience. With the promise you make them at the beginning, you want to be kind of on rails. 

Meg: Well, it's fun. You know, just to speak to this, like pick a pony two doesn't mean simple. Like you don't have to have a simple story. Like I do think "everything all at once?" That's not the full title of the movie. Everything, Everywhere, All at Once. Was that right? 

Jeff: That's right. 

Meg: They picked a pony. Now, one of the ponies they picked was chaos. But they had to stay on that. Like, it's not like chaos, simple movie. They are choosing things. They're choosing main relationships. They're choosing. And as crazy often the different places they can go, rocks are talking, like they can go off it, but they're always coming back to what they're promising the audience, right? And what the pony that they're picking.

So I'm not at all trying to say simplistic. It's a very different thing. It's about discipline. And I agree a lot of the movies are starting to me service so many relationships that I don't know about which one I'm supposed to care about anymore. Like, they're trying to do so many different relationships that I don't know what's the center one. Again, it doesn't mean you can't have a lot of relationships, have as many as you want! But what's the center relationship that ultimately the character is learning through and that I care about at the end of this movie?

I understand how it happens. These movies are so big, and they have so many things to do. There are so many things to lift. I can see how it can happen but and they're still good movies, by the way, I don't even want to say they're not good movies, I just don't think they're as fully satisfying as they could be if they had picked a pony underneath about what relationship ultimately is about.

Jeff: Meg did say that like Andrew or people at Pixar would like pick one word, and like that would be like your beacon as you worked on whatever? 

Meg: Well, early and early. When you're early, sometimes we'll pick a word and put it on the wall. And they did that at Disney too. And it depends on the team. Sometimes the directors don't want to, it depends on the director, or what show you're on, but. It just helps to pick a word and put it on the wall. Now that's not the theme yet. That's the bucket that the theme is in. But it helps us all go, "yes. It's the pony that we're going to pick." We're all going to go towards that thing. 

Lorien: So, Javi was on the show, and I reached out to him after I was about to start Tab Time. I'm like, I need advice. Give me showrunner advice. And he was like, "pick an image. It's a guiding image for the show that everything will come back to that." And I thought about it a lot. And I picked a big bowl of fruit for Tab Time because it's recognizable. Kids know what it is. Parents know what it is. It's sweet, healthy, colorful. It's the things I wanted the show to mean. And so every decision I made was around, is this the big bowl of fruit? The set, Tab's dress, the tone, everything about it. For me, it was that big bowl of fruit because of what it meant. 

So that for me was me picking a pony about what the whole show was going to be, because it was more than a word for me. It was like that visual, the vibrancy, the color, what fruit means, you know, like I hate bananas, but I still put them in the bowl, you know, cause someone else might like bananas. And that's sort of what the show is about. You know, it's like, you get to like whatever you like. So, that was like a moment for me that unlocked the show where I was like, "ah, I picked." You know, I have another show where I picked an image that I'm not quite, I'm not quite sold on. So it's kind of a little harder for me.

Meg: Do an exercise for a couple hours, pick a different one and see what happens.

Lorien: I have to figure out what that is, and I'm working on a new project I'm really excited about, it's an adaptation, and I'm like, okay what's that image for me? Like, what is it? Is it a word? Is it an image? Like, what, a photo? Like, whatever it is like the thing that guides, everything has to come back to that. So, for me, that's the first pony I have to pick, because all the other work needs to come back to check in with that. 

Meg: Yeah, that's cool. 

Lorien: I pick Spice. I pick the mean brown pony. 

Meg: Pick Spice. Let it beat you up a little bit.

Lorien: I pick Spice. 

Meg: Well, that's pick a pony thanks so much everyone for listening. If you haven't joined we'd highly recommend the Facebook our Facebook group. It's a beautiful place to meet other writers and find additional support outside of the show.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing, and pick Spice!

Jeff: Thanks for tuning in to The Screenwriting Life. We love our community and we want to get to know you even better. Join our Facebook group at facebook.com/thescreenwritinglife or email us at thescreenwritinglife@gmail.com to have your question considered for the show. You can also suggest topics by emailing us there.

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