148 | Jodie Foster on Building Truthful Characters

Despite being a multiple Academy Award winner, celebrated producer, and feature/TV director, Jodie Foster is still aiming for a singular goal: to tell truthful stories. On today's show, we discuss how Jodie processes her work, how she collaborates with others, and what Robert De Niro taught her on the set of Taxi Driver.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Meg LeFauve: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien McKenna: And I'm Lorien McKenna.

Meg LeFauve: Today, we are thrilled to be chatting with Jodie Foster.

Lorien McKenna: Jodie is an award winning actor and filmmaker who has worked on all sides of our business, in front of and behind the camera, as a producer, an executive, and director in both features and TV for nearly five decades.

Meg LeFauve: Jodie and I worked together for many years when I was an exec at her production company, Egg Pictures. Pretty much everything I know about storytelling, I learned from Jodie. So for me, it's particularly exciting to have her on the show today. And for you all to get direct line to her wisdom. So Jodie, thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Jodie Foster: Wow. My pleasure. Yeah. This is a perfect way to spend a Tuesday. I love it.

Lorien McKenna: Yes. Welcome. But before we get started, we're going to be diving into our weeks on what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. So Meg, how was your week?

Meg LeFauve: I'm going first this week. Okay. Well, my week, and I know that both of you have had this experience:

I'm at the end of a project, and it's that period of, I'm not gonna say mourning, because it's alive and going, like, it's not like it died. But I'm no longer going with it, as writers often are, you, you step off, and into production it goes, and, but it is a process, it's still an emotional process of trying to get back to your regular life, and yet, I still have to get a next project, and I, I have a next project because I need health insurance.

And I, but I don't, I'm tired, and I need to process this baby being grown before I start going up the next mountain, which just looks really steep. I think because I'm tired. And then all that family stuff, that during this intense work, you just kind of put over there and all those doctor's appointments and all that stuff that you promised your kids that you're like, yes, as soon as this job's over, we are doing that.

Well, here it is. It's all here. And really, my kid will take no excuse anymore about what I'm doing because that job's over and I'm just like, “Oh my gosh, who am I?” It's just a process. I'm in the process. Let's not call it mourning. What are we going to call it? I know. I don't know what this is. I don't even know what this is.

So I don't know.

Lorien McKenna: It feels like Sisyphus to me. You're like in the bottom of that pit, rolling it up. Am I going to get to the top? Roll it up a different way.

Meg LeFauve: I don't know, Jodie, you're right. Jodie, you have projects end. As everything, as an actress, they're going to go on into edit. As a director, eventually the premiere comes.

Jodie Foster: Well, I just, I actually, I'm sort of in the same boat. I just finished a project and I was in Iceland for six months, which was extraordinary. There is this really amazing sweet spot that happens where it's. It basically starts at the beginning of the wrap party and it goes through the wrap party to the point that you're in the car on the way to the plane.

You're packing, you're in the, on the way to the plane, you get on the plane, you eat the peanuts. It's just this perfect sigh of presence, I think, where you feel like I did something really hard, but it's over and I don't have to do it. And. I don't have to worry about anything in the future because I just finished this really hard thing.

And then it's just this sweet spot of perfection. And then real life comes and real life is great. You know, you're back to tacos and you're back to picking up the dog poop outside and all the things that you sort of missed while you were gone. But the little anxiety creeps in of like, you know, what am I without my next thing and I can't believe I didn't attend to that task that I kept thinking I was going to attend to while I was gone.

So, and then that moment kind of disappears. So, I really like to try to stay in that, that little piece of perfection from the wrap party to getting off the plane at LAX and try to remember that feeling of Having done something really hard, and the grind is over and you don't have to go back to it, but you can still keep all the beauty of all the relationships that you've just come from, and all those memories sort of alive for that moment.

Yeah.

Meg LeFauve: That's really true. It's about, I need to also remember the accomplishment. You know, that a lot has been accomplished. I have accomplished a lot on this project.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, and it's hard to celebrate until it's over, right? You can't celebrate until it's over. So even, I mean, I did manage to celebrate a lot when I was younger.

When I was in my 20s, I could definitely celebrate before it was over. I mean, I would night with people and stuff, but somehow... I got this weird vigilance as I got over where I was like, I can't let my hair down because I've still got to learn that monologue or I still have, you know, scene 42 to do and I can't really let it down until I finally crossed off all the boxes on the, on the Staples calendar.

And and I just wish I could get that feeling to last longer, because I know it's all about perspective. I wish I could get that feeling to last longer, but it only lasts from basically the wrap party until I get off the planet.

Meg LeFauve: And I'm definitely in the hyper-vigilance. It's almost like the hyper-vigilance of the project has now just transferred over to, I have 700 emails in my inbox and I must have zero.

I must have zero. Like that's what I'm doing now. What am I doing? Anyways, sorry. Okay, Jodie, how was your week? Well, we've kind of started to talk about it because are you in the sweet spot still?

Jodie Foster: Well, no. You know, I was all week because I have been someplace amazing that's beautiful and extraordinary.

But, you know, there's a, there was a lot of fish and potatoes and beets. And you, you long for really dumb things that you're just used to. You long to the things that you're used to that six months ago, I'm sure I was bored by. But right now, it just, I'm just in that like, “Oh my god, avocados are amazing!”

Or I'm so glad I get to go to the gym again! Or just, you know, things that six months ago were sort of what I was trying to escape from. And now this circular creative process means I just want to get back to it. So, I'm like appreciating everything this week. Like I had, I had, You know, I had sushi for the first time in a long time.

I was like, “Oh my God, this was amazing.” Like everything, basically everything is amazing.

Meg LeFauve: You're like Rip Van Winkle, like woken up and come back to your life. Amazing. Lorien, how was your week?

Lorien McKenna: Good. I continue in this sort of process of trying to figure out work life balance and how working from home being a writer and a mother and you know, it's real mushy for me.

But this weekend, my husband went out of town. So it was just my daughter and me alone. And yeah, It was this great opportunity to focus and, and be intentional about the time I spent with her. Of course, it was a weekend. I still had a couple of work meetings, pitch stuff, you know, I had to stop, but it was very much about communicating so clearly to her since my husband isn't here to like hang out with her.

So it was like, I have a meeting from 10 to 11:30. I'm going to go down to my basement and I will come up. And then I had to stay to that because I didn't have the backup. And it was just this, it just felt so clear to me. And then when I was with her, I was with her. I wasn't thinking about projects or things going on.

And I have so rarely felt that. So it felt like very, I felt really revitalized by that. And like, now I'm thinking like, how can I bring that intentionality when my husband is here? Right. And that even when I'm in the flow and doing something and she comes down to my office and ask me a question that somehow I can turn off what I'm doing and then engage with her instead of like, ah, get out of here.

I'm busy. You know that that sort of thing because I feel like I'm doing that with her when I'm working. And then when I'm with her, I do the same thing with work that comes like more email. So I'm this is a constant struggle for me. I don't know that I'll ever really achieve greatness in this place. But this weekend I felt really great.

Not in control, but like connected to myself in a way that felt really good and satisfying. So I'm trying to figure out how to reclaim that feeling, you know, with my husband, maybe with people I'm interacting with, you know, I'll continue to let everybody know how it goes, which is always a wild ride of, “Here's how I fucked up this week on what I was intending to do. But and I felt like it was just really, it was a gift to spend that time with my daughter because we're always so busy.

Meg LeFauve: But I tried that this weekend too, because my husband's away, except I have a teenage boy.

Lorien McKenna: Mine’s an 11 year old girl.

Meg LeFauve: It's a little different when the testosterone is on. I'm just like, God, why are you so mean? Like, I just asked you what you want for dinner. What?

Lorien McKenna: I don't know.

Meg LeFauve: It's just boys. Okay. Okay. Let's get on to the good stuff. Let's start asking Jodie some questions.

Jodie Foster: I like all of this. The creative process is like, I think it takes a whole lifetime.

I mean, you know, the work life balance and the creative process. Like how, how do I show up whether it's at my desk or on set? And how do I be the most open, creative person I can possibly be and come up with ideas, and have faith that I'm going to come up with ideas, and not be filled with anxiety that I won't?

And you know, how do I do all those things? And I don't think, first of all, I don't think we ever resolve that, but I do think that you kind of need to turn 60 or something. It's some of it is just about being young. I think when you're young, it's really hard to have faith. It's really hard to feel like you're on the right path.

It's really hard to balance things and allow your instincts to take over. And, to have a plan, and know that the plan is probably a good plan until the next plan that's better comes along. I mean, all those things, you don't, I don't know. You just don't have faith in yourself until you get old enough to not care anymore.

Meg LeFauve: it's trusting yourself too, right? Like you, what you just said about, you have to trust that when you show up. It will come even if you're full of anxiety about that. It won't come.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, there's that there are other art forms, writing other art forms that are a little less clear but acting is really clear because a you're basically using yourself your face your body, and they say action and like, you don't have any time.

You just have to, it just has to happen. And if it doesn't happen, it sucks. And if it did happen, it's great. And there's nothing you can do about it. So it is it's the minor bird for a creative process of figuring out whether you're in the right space. And I love working with younger people because they bring all that excitement to the table, but I also watch them torture themselves.

I just watched them like. You know, hang their head after they've done a scene. I think that you do that, just the torture, how you torture yourself creatively as a young person.

Lorien McKenna: I think that's really helpful. I did that thing that way. Let's move on to the next thing because bringing the ways that you were maybe not as great as you thought you were bringing it to the next thing is what hurts the next thing. So you're like this trail of overthinking that's just polluting everything you're doing.

But you do have to learn how to be like, “Okay, okay. That happened this way.” And, and then you move on. I mean, that's what you're talking about, right? If I understand you correctly, I'm just trying to like, “okay, how can I do more of that? How can I compartmentalize?”

Jodie Foster: Yeah. And how do you do it without experience? Like years of experience? I don't know. I'm sure people do.

I'm sure there were people who were born, you know, that just go, I'm here and now I'm perfect. I can, I'm just good enough and I'm just going to show up and see what happens. Like, I don't even know if I want to know those people as young, young know it alls.

Lorien McKenna (laughs): We've all met those guys. We've met them.

Jodie Foster: Yeah.

I was definitely not that way. And on my last show, it was just so much fun watching the young, younger people come to the table and feeling like. Oh man, I don't have the energy to work that hard. You guys are really working hard. I don't know if I can, you know, I don't have that energy anymore. I think I have faith that I did it before a bunch of times and I'm pretty sure I'm going to come up with something when I get there.

Wisdom, I think that's called. Maybe. Yeah.

Meg LeFauve: So Jodie, when I worked with you, you said something that I've carried with me forever. You would say, what's the big, beautiful idea in here that if I wanted as a producer your exec to bring you a project, that was the first thing we had to talk about.

What is the big, beautiful idea? Can you talk a little bit about that? Do you still use that phrase or think about that? How are you approaching as a, as a director and an actor? I mean,

Jodie Foster: Yeah, it's it's basically, you know, how do you find the personal connection between the what you're, you know, the piece of art that you're trying to make and you and the lived life.

And when you find that you will be moved. And when you are moved, you will make something that has the possibility - I'm not saying it's great - but it has the possibility of greatness because it's true. And you know, as I always say, like, I only ask myself one question over and over and over again, whether it's as an actor or as a director.

I mean, all I ask is, is it true? You know, is it true that he would wear that blue hat? Like, Is it true that he would walk in that door and turn on the light or would he not turn on the light? You know, all of those questions really, it's almost like, with an optician - when you go to the optical place and they look at your eyes and they just say, you know, is it better or is it worse?

Is it better or is it worse? You know, if you just keep asking yourself that question, is it true or is it not true? Then you will find yourself making a personal movie that has a connection to a big idea, an idea that in some ways is larger than you because it lives inside you and you don't 100% understand it.

I guess that's what I'm always looking for, certainly as a director and even as an actor, in order to work on screenplays and, you know, come up with ideas for the character is trying to make those, that personal connection and saying, is there one overarching idea that every time that I think about it, it, it stops my breath.

What is that in the show? Because we are here to serve that. That's what the movie is here to serve. Whether it's the language of props or the language of production design, the language of acting, all of us are here to serve one big beautiful idea and we bring our various languages in order to, to, to achieve that.

Lorien McKenna: Can you talk a little bit about, I love that idea, is it true? And so many of us have great ideas and we ask ourselves questions like that. In the execution, if you can't quite get it there, what's your process around that?

Jodie Foster: You know, I guess. you try to find something else that's true, right? I guess you move on to the next thing.

If you're like, wow, this is just, I'm not feeling it. This is not working. You know, that's where the more simple question, I can be a very heady person that I'm very intellectual and I'm really good at writing book reports and, you know, all that kind of thing…a very intellectual approach. But at the end of the day, I have to ask myself that question as a director, as an actor, does it play or does it not play?

You know, does it work or does it not work? And it's a really simple question, you know, when you're looking at an image, and you're a camera operator and you're looking at an image and you're watching the actors. That's the question that you ask yourself. You know, does it play? And you can sit around and talk about why it doesn't play and try and figure out why it doesn't play, but you're better off saying, okay, well, what does play?

And why is it playing? And how can we, you know, how can we move? And there's, because there's got to be a reason. If it doesn't feel truthful, and you know, it's not coming across, it's not communicating what you're hoping, you sort of have to open up your eyes a little wider and say, well, you know, what's over there?

Maybe that, maybe that'll do it. You know, you start opening up the box of hypotheticals. You know, what if, what if she didn't have a husband? What if she wasn't married? You know, what if she, what if her dad was dead? What if he's, you know, I often come into this thing where I'm trying to make a character work, and trying to make a character work, and there's just something false about it, and it's not working, and strangely, sometimes I get very busy by just killing them off, being like, well, what if, what if he didn't exist?

What would happen then? So you, come up with these hypotheticals in order to help, hopefully, get you to the place where you can suddenly see the truth of the scene or the movie or the play.

Meg LeFauve: When you're a director taking it on and you're kind of trying to bring that big, beautiful idea, truth or, you know, the way you described it, kind of that centering or rudder for every department. To articulate it into words, you know? When I was at Pixar or Disney, and you're going through all the development, even if you got a word, we would just stick that word on the wall. Is that something that you can articulate and that's why you take it on as a director? Or do you ever go through the process of trying to find the articulation of something that you feel?

Jodie Foster: Well, yeah, that's our job. We're always articulating. We're always communicating something that's internal, something that's emotional, something that's physical. You know, the way a, composer has to explain why he's choosing the violin, why he's choosing the trombone. And I find that process, I love that process.

There's nothing I love more than talking about things that are. Somewhat unexplainable, you know, that shouldn't that that can't be really understood by language and to try to find parameters sort of language parameters in order to communicate to people and different people, whether they're actors or whether they're technicians, you know, they respond to different things.

And I can always get better at that. I'm not as good at that as, as, as I would hope to try to respond to different performers and say, Oh, this person is, you know, needs this type of language in order to get to that place or this person, I have to approach them a certain way. It's That's like a lifelong pursuit of understanding how to speak to people so that they can live up to their best potential.

Cause I can't do it for them. I'm here just to inspire them, you know, inspire them and say you know, I can say the train is leaving the station at eight and I want it to arrive by 9:30, but I can't tell them how to drive there. They have to find that themselves.

Meg LeFauve: And when you're building a character I don't know if you remember this, but when we worked together, you said to me once that when you built a character, you often started with shame and fear because the character was, all the behaviors were trying to protect them from that.

Can you talk a little bit about how you, okay, you've gotten this part, you've taken it, now you need to build this character? Or even when you're a director and you're in development with a writer and you're building characters that way.

Jodie Foster: Right, yeah. I think that's a really good, I don't want to say it's a starting space, but it's a good, it's a good place to get to at some point.

To figure out what it is that the character's trying to hide from the other people. What it is that they're ashamed of that they haven't been able to express in their lives for fear of being rejected or for fear. Of feeling like a failure or, you know, the even larger question that comes out of that is: what is it that they're acting on that they don't even understand that they're acting on, you know? What historical parts of their life, what historical wounds are affecting the present moment that they're having in relationship with these other characters or in the choices that they're making.

I just saw a great, this great show BEEF, I'm sure which you guys have seen and really enjoying just. I was really enjoying watching that to see characters who are intelligent people, but who are reacting from old historical wounds that they don't understand, and they can't control themselves. And to watch them do that as a pattern over and over and over again, I mean, I find that really fascinating.

So these are all the discussions like that you get into in that room, whether it's that rehearsal room. Or whether it's your hotel room inside your head, because I don't usually bore other people with this kind of thing just asking myself that question, you know, what is it that the character is trying to do?

Trying desperately to not have other people see and what is it about them that they're ashamed of that they're trying to actively work against. I think that that can be very revealing. And I try to get very specific about those things because. You know, I don't want to present the audience with a huge soup of ideas that have a thousand ingredients.

I want to be specific about the breadcrumbs. And I can feel all the hundred ingredients in my own body, but I want to be specific with the audience so that the audience can. And, you know, in, into it in a way that doesn't feel just too random.

Lorien McKenna: You've talked a lot about experience and your wisdom. When did you come to this conclusion? Like, was it as an actor? Like, when, when did this happen for you? What was that moment of aha?

Jodie Foster: Well, this is, this is not the answer that you want to hear, which is that, look, I didn't choose to be an actor.

I was a little kid. I was three years old and I, it was the family business and I went on auditions, because…I don't know, I just kind of fell into it. And I liked doing things well. So I liked listening to direction. And then when somebody would say, move your foot in that direction, and I would do it, they would say that was good.

And I liked that. So I became an actor through being a good technician. And I really thought that's really what making movies was when the, you know, was accommodating a camera and knowing about lenses. And, oh, if you know, I do this particular gesture on this line, this will help the director. So I grew up really, really being fascinated by the technique of making films, because I loved movies, and I loved TV, and I loved all that.

And otherwise I didn't ask myself any questions, because honestly the one direction that I got as a kid was, be natural, be yourself. And so I thought, Oh, well, I guess that's what acting is. I guess I just have to be myself. So I would be natural and be myself. And then somewhere around 10 or 11, I thought this is a really dumb job. I thought, you know, note to self, don't do this when you grow up.

But then at 12, I did TAXI DRIVER with Robert De Niro and he kind of took me aside before we started shooting and kept doing these rehearsals with me where we rehearsed the lines over and over again. And I found this process incredibly boring and I couldn't imagine why we had to keep rehearsing these lines over and over again at different coffee shops.

And then he threw some improvisation at me once we knew all the dialogue by heart. He threw some improvisation at me and I suddenly understood what it was to build a character. I guess, I guess it had never occurred to me before that I was gonna have to do anything more than just be natural. And I was just giddy.

I can't remember coming home and going to the Essex House Hotel and coming up in the elevator and just, you know, seeing my mom and just being completely giddy because I couldn't believe how I had made this discovery that acting was building a character and that I had not been giving enough of myself.

And that's why it had been, it had seemed unchallenging to me. And then in fact, there was everything satisfying about the job. I just hadn't brought enough of myself to the picture. I did understand that I, I understood that as a young person that there was a craft to it. And and I guess that continued for a while.

But I still somewhere in the back of my mind thought that it, it would just never was going to be a satisfying enough job. And that eventually I was going to do something else and hopefully something that had to do with films. And I guess as the years go on, I have moments where I have these eureka moments where I go, “Oh wow, this is really, this is, yes, this is who I am and this is what I do.”

But a lot of the time it is balancing my love of the technical art of filmmaking and an appreciation of instinct. So, balancing intention and allowing, you know, balancing those two things.

Lorien McKenna: Thank you for telling that story. I got chills and I got a little emotional and teary because it's how I felt when I finally was like, I'm going to do this.

I'm going to devote myself a hundred percent to writing and making that choice. Every single day. It’s a challenge sometimes. And I just, it's a, such a joy to hear you talk about it in that way, because like, yes, it's about discovery and I have to give myself to it over to it, but to myself, right. It's a commitment to feeling good, you know, and, and powerful and interesting and engaged in my own life.

So thank you for that. And after this, after we're done, I'm going to go have a good cry, but I'm going to keep it together for the rest of this and then later I'll go have a big weep session. I don't have any chips in the house, but you know, I'll make do.

Meg LeFauve: I also think what you're talking about is very much applies to writing and the act of writing because it is, you have to have that intentionality. Right? I'm sitting down here to have this intention. I think the story's going to go this way. This is what I think it is. And then, but be able to be spontaneous.

And it's moving. And it's changing today. And I don't even know why we're going down there. And I'm on a deadline. I cannot have it changed today. But it's changing. And if you resist it sometimes, you do get that kind of flatness that starts to come in. Because it's thought through. It's an intellectual version of your story.

I was just working with a young writer yesterday and I could see it. I could see the moment her brain went “Yeah, we're not going down that road” and just went off the other direction. It was just a gentle process with her to have her see it. You know, to have her see the truth that you talk about coming through and trying to come up into the script. And the bravery it takes we call that on this show, it can feel like lava sometimes. That, “is that, is that true?” can feel like fire, it can feel…make you feel very, very vulnerable.

But that is also what you taught me, Jodie, in working with you, that that's the richness, that's, that's where the human condition is, is down in that stuff. And I'm not talking tone now. It could be funny, it could be scary, it could be Martians, it could be anything. But that truth you talk abou. It's amazing to hear it.

Jodie Foster: It’s the pot at the end of the rainbow that we keep, you know, going through all the boring stuff to get to, you know, and enduring the bad coffee and the throwing away the white pieces of paper and all of that. All the, the tough grind of it all in order to get to those little tiny bits of gold.

But you know, the hardest thing with writing is that you guys are alone. You know, you're alone for a lot of the time. And so much of the creative process that I'm used to happens as…you know, you show the photographic paper to oxygen and stuff happens, stuff happens because some person that you're working with asked you a question or the person that you're working with isn't good at.

Or can't bring this one part of the character because it doesn't feel true to them. Or they had some idea about a funny hat they were going to wear and suddenly everything has to change because it comes into contact with other human beings. And of course, as a director, this happens 140,000 times a day because other factors, whether it's the weather, whether it's the schedule, all of it impacts on some idea you had in your hotel room all by yourself.

And that, that is the challenge also for all of us at working with writer/directors because they come up with something in their hotel room and they think it's perfect and it's just amazing and they live with it for months and months at a time. And then they come onto a movie set and they are unwilling to understand that the whole beauty of it is that it's all going to change the second that it comes into interaction with other people.

Meg LeFauve: Yes. The writer in me is like, “Oh, but it happens in animation all the time.” All the storyboard artists working and, and that's what’s constant.

Lorien McKenna: That’s I love so much about, you know, working at Pixar and TV. Right? You, you get to, you bring a script. You're like, it's perfect. It's approved. Let's go. And then all these people start asking you questions.

Is this really the prop? Is this what I'm wearing? I can't say this line in this way. This, you know, it's not true. And so that was the fun of it. You know, sitting on set rewriting was a little challenging, you know, every day, but that's the fun of it. So you're right. Sitting alone. I find that part, the hardest part, sitting alone and writing.

I like the. The noise of other people's thoughts and voices and stuff.

Jodie Foster: Yeah. That is the beautiful thing about being a writer is that you can when you're all by yourself in your hotel room, you can inhabit all these other voices. And these other people come in and say bullshit. Erase that. Delete that immediately.

Lorien McKenna: Oh, it's like you can hear my inner voice. That's exactly what she says. “That's bullshit. Erase it.”

Jodie Foster: I just worked with a writer/director, Isa Lopez who I think might be my favorite director I've ever worked with. It's really has been my favorite experience. The TRUE DETECTIVE experience.

She really loved the process of throwing things away and saying, well, what could be better? And now that we're in the room and we see that the ice is melting in this particular direction, you know, how do we, what else can we come up with?

And I think I could watch her getting giddy over that process. And yes, sometimes it was painful because she had, you know, slogged over something and now here we were throwing the trash. But hopefully the actors don't do it in order to, or even the technicians don't do it in order to just achieve power.

Or for the wrong reasons. To get control or to hear the sound of their own voice or, you know…I think my character would wear a motorcycle jacket because they're cool. Hopefully the intentions, we're all driving in the same direction, you know, and hopefully there’s centeredness that starts playing a part in, you know, the decision making.

That, those are all the things that you have to sort of weigh.

Meg LeFauve: In terms of driving in the same direction, does that come back to that big beautiful idea? Is there discussions with the director, writer/director, about her intention of that thematic, you know, and that that's really what is the centering piece, right?

Jodie Foster: Yeah. And always coming back to that.

And, and I do believe because I make personal films and this is also something amazing is, you know, we think our big beautiful idea is one thing, but I promise you by the time that you're in the cutting room, you realize that it has morphed into something more specific that is more beautiful and that was inside you that you hadn't entirely fully reckoned with that didn't really come out until you finished the process.

It's, you know, kind of like the baby got born and then you realized that they walked and talked a certain way and that that was more true than the first ideas that you had, the first intentions that you had.

Meg LeFauve: I know this might be unlikely, but do you have any examples of those kinds of ideas for our, especially our emerging writers who are starting this path?

Like when we say big, beautiful idea, what it is that we mean, you know, because a lot of them might be like, you know, Love is true, or like those kind of you know, Hallmark card, that's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about an emotional insight into the human condition. I'm just trying to think of an example we could give them.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, I mean, gosh, I probably have a hundred million, so I'm going to try and find one that's specific. I mean, NELL, you were a part of that process as well, or at least, you know, you were around that process. NELL was a play, and the play was a beautiful play, but we worked with a different writer, and suddenly it turned into a lot of different things, and there were a lot of ideas that came through.

It was many years of working on that and I guess I always thought of NELL as I, I guess I, I always thought of it as, and everybody else thought of it as as this person who was independent and was really I don't want to say a wild child because that was, that's probably misleading. But that she was so beautiful because she could be alone and could live, could live in the moment and that she didn't need society.

And we, we kind of operated on that principle and then somehow towards the end of the development process of we're moving into the movie, I realized like, “Oh my gosh, it's exactly the opposite.” The man in the story is attracted to this idea of, you know, who is a person who can exist on their own doesn't need people.

I want to find out who that person is. And what he ends up finding is somebody, we don't realize it until the end of the movie, but who is entirely and completely defined by another person, in this case, who was her twin, but who happens to have died. And so she was entirely in relationship with another person and does not know how to be alone at all.

But the person's just not around anymore. So she concocts the person. And pretends that the person is there because there's no other way for her to to be in the world. She wouldn't be able to live if she didn't, if she didn't have even the phantom of that person with her. And I thought that was such an interesting idea for the film and, and we operated on that idea.

And then, gosh, and then when I finished the movie, I realized... Wow, I wanted to make a movie about all of these things, but I realized that I had kind of done that in my whole life where I had continually just created new relationships because I couldn't be alone. And I would just put somebody in that seat.

I just kept putting someone in that seat. And I'd be like, Oh, you're good here you sit in that seat because I can't be alone. And I found people that. Left me alone a lot so that I could pretend I was alone, but there was still somebody sitting in the seat. So there was a sort of interesting revelation about making a movie that I thought was about learning how to be alone, and it actually ended up being.

Being a movie about learning how to be in real relationships.

Lorien McKenna: Meg, I have a question for you. Did you just cry all the time when you were, when you guys were together?

Jodie Foster: We laughed a lot! You laughed a lot.

Lorien McKenna: I'm sure, but like, I don't know, I'm really affected by listening to you talk. I feel so emotional. It's just, I feel like you're speaking to my humanity in a way that I'm finding, not surprising, but like, I'm moved.

Meg LeFauve: It is. It is. And and it was. That's why it, I told you that everything I know about storytelling, I learned from Jodie. Are you listening? I mean, the depth of understanding.

Now listen, I will be honest and tell you when you had to go pitch to her, because she's so smart there it was. I wasn't afraid of her. I was afraid of not, you know, did I, am I, like I would start that overthinking process, right? And then you would have to be like, no. It's like all I can bring her is what I love and why I love it and why I think she might love it, and do you love it? I think this is such a cool idea, and I don't even know where it goes. It's only in half the script, but isn't this cool?

And she'd be like, oh my god, that's cool. Or she'd be like, no, I don't get it. And that was, you know, like, you could get intellectual up in your head about anybody who's as insightful and amazing as Jodie.

But it also teaches you to be to constantly, is it true, go back to yourself, I also learned that from her, in terms of those relationships. So I'm talking to you like you're not even here, Jodie.

Jodie Foster: I mean, look, we come up with these ways creatively, we come up with creative paths because, because they work, right?

You're like, okay, how do I make a movie that is... Moving. Okay, how do we do that? Oh, I know, let's come up with something that's moving, and then we make a movie about it. Right? So, you, you learn through experience of, and as an actor, I really feel lucky that I, that I don't think I had much of an actor's personality, but I got forced to be an actor as a young person, and man, I had to come up with ways of finding how things are moving, because if I didn't, I would suck.

So I had to be like, “okay, what moves me quick? I gotta, I gotta find it because otherwise I'm just going to be bad.” I don't really know how to act without truth. I, the only, the only thing I know how to do is be truthful. I don't really know how to do anything else. So I had to find stuff really quickly. There was an exercise that I did that really, I really felt came, came in handy that I did for for masterclass which was.

You know, let's just say we're all we're going to today we're going to come up with a really moving short. Okay, and it's it's going to be a 20 minute short. All right, what are we going to make it about you tell me a story, you know, you tell me a story from your life. That keeps haunting you and keeps coming back to you and talk to me about that moment just about that moment just one moment and the moment can last 20 seconds, but just talk to me about that moment.

And then then then we're going to go off in different tangents, but we're going to create a we're going to create a scene and script. Around that feeling and then we're going to come up with plot and then we're going to come up with backstory. Let's do it the opposite way. Let's start with the feeling and then mushroom out and talk about how, what are the parameters and the structures and the form in order to get there.

And that to me is like a really, that's another thing I ask people to do sometimes is go to a movie that makes you mad because you didn't like it and then ask yourself. Okay, now you're the writer/director, what would you do to save this movie and to make this movie reflect you and to reflect all the things that you want to say about your life?

And it's a good exercise to go back in and say, Oh, you know, what I really hated about this movie was it was this big, epic, dumb sci fi film, but it was supposed to be about, you know, his quest for asking questions about loneliness. Okay, well, what would you do? Well, first of all, I take away the sci fi thing, and I turn it into a two hander.

Okay, well, who are the two people? Like, you just keep asking yourself questions, and then suddenly you've turned, you've turned something that you hated passionately because it betrayed you, and you've made changes to turn it you because it's very much you.

Meg LeFauve: I saw a movie this weekend and I'm doing that. There you go.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: So much of what we're talking about is so valuable because it's a reminder that the creative process is so fluid, and it's about flexibility and openness. But is it ever the job of a writer in development to stand on a laurel that they really believe in about the project?

You know, we talk about that hill to die on. And having worked with so many writers in development, how do we do that elegantly, as writers, when we're working with a brilliant producer, but we really believe something should stay or stand as it's changing in development?

Jodie Foster: Oh, well, I have ideas about that. I mean, I, yeah, I encounter that all the time.

You know, sometimes, look, what, what moves me as a, as a one person, something else totally different may move someone else, and I am here to serve the script, and I'm here to serve the director. So, as an, as an actor, I'm here to serve the writer, the writer and the director. So, I have to really listen and say, what is it about that idea?

Okay. So tell me, why is that? Why do you, you know, and really interrogate it and say, okay, all right. I get that. Maybe there is a negotiation. There's a midway point, which is, you know, I can't have her coming on horseback because that just feels phony. But I like the idea that she's close to nature and you have a response to that nature thing.

Okay, is there another animal? What's the other animal? Do you feel that same way about pigs? Why would, you know, you're creating it together. So you can, you can keep one eye, you can keep the, the, the big beautiful idea, but also still kind of surgically be able to Kind of take away some of the distractions of the shaft that may be hindering the actor's performances or maybe even hindering being able to communicate effectively to the audience.

Meg LeFauve: Jodie, the other thing that you taught me that I use all the time is…we had a young writer come in and I warned her you were going to ask this question, so she should have been more prepared. And you said, “why this antagonist, like of all the people that could come into her life, why is this the person that's going to crack her open or transform her? Why this antagonist for this protagonist?”

And it's such a great clarifying back to that big, beautiful idea. Why this antagonist? Is that something that you still believe? You know, it was a while ago when we talked about it.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, I mean, I'm always, as a director, and, you know, ostensibly as a writer, even though I don't write very often, I need to have every one of those characters be a reflection of some part of me.

So I'm often, the person that I work on the most is the antagonist and you know, the quote unquote “bad guy,” you know, because I need to find that bad guy in me. And I need to know why he or she did it. I need to know where it comes from. I need to know how their mother treated them. They have a point of view and it really, everybody has a point of view, but very importantly, the antagonist has a point of view and you can't understand the protagonist, of course, until you understand why that what the antagonist is doing in the, in the movie.

I mean, you know, that it's a little bit different for television sometimes because television can be circular. And it's just about experiencing environments sometimes, but a movie is a short story. It's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And everything is meaningful. If there's a prop that's highlighted in the script, it better be meaningful.

And if the character has a line, ultimately it needs to If it's not meaningful for the big idea of the movie, cut it out. If it just sounds cute, or sounds pretty, or is amusing, cut it out. Because it really needs to serve the big story. So, yeah, there's no such thing as not having an answer to a question in a movie, as a director.

You know, as a filmmaker, when somebody asks you a question, you either have the answer, or you say, wow, I don't have the answer to that. Isn't that interesting? That's interesting. Okay. Well, let's keep going and let's see why that is. Yeah, you have, you have to have an answer for that. It can't just be the bad guy's bad because I needed a bad guy.

Meg LeFauve: And Jeff, you had a question talking, speaking about TV directing and creation. You had a question about that.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Well, I've loved your entree into television. I think ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK is one of the best TV shows of the last decade. And I love your work on Amazon too.

But I'm curious…as someone who just was incubated in film, was there any conversation you had with yourself about trying television and moving over? Because truthfully, I feel like ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK is sort of on, like, the early side of the prestige television wave. Like, was this a conversation you were having with yourself at all before you made the move?

Jodie Foster: Well, I was excited about cable and television and streaming and all that stuff. But I also recognize my place as a director. You are not the creator and you're not the person making those decisions. So basically the director is there, you know, entirely to serve the creator's vision. And that was, you know, really fun for me to do that on Orange is New Black and on House of Cards and, you know, to work with these amazing creative voices.

I know my place though. And at the end of the day they have the right to recut you. And they make the final decision on casting and they've probably already worked with the production designer on the sets before you get there. So your level of responsibility is very different.

You're, you're there to serve as a member of the team. And I, I love that as long as I can make my own movies, I really love being able to serve in television.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Speaking of your own movies, is it okay if I quickly ask about MONEY MONSTER?

Jodie Foster: Sure.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: Because I love that movie. And one of the things I really like about it, and I think it's true of a lot of your work, is it's filled with a big, beautiful idea, right?

And it's thematically rich and it's challenging. It's about the capitalist industrial complex, but it's still a popcorn thriller. And you know, I'm still going to go and have a great time. And I re-watched it last night and I was like, gosh, this movie's fun. I'm on the edge of my seat and I'm still being fed these important ideas.

Can you talk about that as a writer? Because I feel like, especially on early drafts, sometimes all we're doing is the big beautiful idea and we forget that we're telling a story.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, that movie, I have a lot of it's a bittersweet movie for me, right? Because I don't you know, some movies you'll leave and you'll feel like, yep, I left everything on screen that I wanted to say and everything was exactly how it was intended.

And that, that was definitely not true with that movie. I mean, that is what happens when you make a studio film that costs more than the normal movie with big stars. There are different demands on you and there's different fights that you fight.

So I don't know that that film is the most reflective of who I am, but the ideas in it for sure are things that that were really in my soul, you know, about men and failure. About ow men, it's almost like they have this primordial failure nugget that's sitting in their body and that tortures them their whole lives.

You know, what if I'm a failure? What happens if I'm a failure? And a lot of that is in the eyes of women. Whether it's their mother, whether it's their girlfriend that there's a kind of hurt that they carry with them that can propel them to violence. And can propel them to misogyny and can propel them to cheat and lie and steal because they don't want to be a failure in their eyes or in the eyes of women.

So that was really, that was at the core of that movie for me and I thought that was very interesting to have those three male characters each of them completely different. So you know, the host played by George Clooney and you the guy who comes to take him hostage, Jack O'Connell and the antagonist and all of them are reacting from the same kind of very male phenomenon.

Yeah. You know, I did want to, I did want to make a mainstream movie. I felt like you could do both. I really wanted to do both. And I also. I like to make a movie about deep things, but I also like it to be fun, and I like to see the comedy in it, because that's a reflection of who I am, I'm not like a particularly dark person, I'm kind of like a, you know, a witty, language based, funny person, so I have to have both I, you know, not everybody liked the film, so it's hard for me you know, I can't really have a perspective about that, cause I, I know a lot of people were disappointed, in the tone, really. That, you know, there was a lot of comedy and it was also a thriller and there was a lot of pressure for it to be one or the other. And I tried to keep both, but, you know, I tried, I'm not sure I, I achieved it.

Meg LeFauve: I think you did.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I love that movie. I like it for that reason. I feel like it's aged very well in that way. I know it's not my place to talk about why the movie's good or not good, but I really, really like that movie.

Jodie Foster: Topically, it aged really well, but unfortunately at the time, I think people didn't really appreciate that, right? There was this scourge of people who were saying like, I am, I'm a white guy, and I am aggrieved and all of these, you know, the, the, the financial world have, I feel manipulated.

I feel like heck, like I can't get ahead. I feel like it's unfair. And this was before, just before Trump. So I felt like there was. You know, there was a lot of stuff of the undercurrent of America that was in the film that I think people at the time didn't, hadn't quite gotten yet. So I do feel like it was a tiny bit, maybe like six months to a year ahead of its time and that perhaps if it had come out a year later, people would have understood that there was stuff to be looked at in that arena in the financial world.

Meg LeFauve: And yet, because you're you, you also present all of those people as human beings. It's flawed, messed up human beings, but they're human beings, they're not monsters, necessarily. Or it's like, what makes a monster, I guess.

Jodie Foster: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, that's, that's what I'm always looking for.

And I was really hoping, you know, with George, because George Clooney is somebody that people really respond to, and they love him. And they just have this, like, happy feeling when he walks in the room. And he is a total asshole in the film. I mean, he's just a complete schmuck of an asshole who takes credit for things he didn't do.

Who is, you know, he's...doesn't acknowledge the woman that is behind him that does everything, he he's starstruck, he's sexist, you know, he's all these things and we hopefully do watch him change through the course of the movie, not change and turn into a hero. He changes because he acknowledges that he fucked up and he messed up people's lives and he becomes a human being.

So, that's what I was hoping for. I don't know if I got there. We'll see. I have not seen the movie since the last time it came out of the out of the mix.

Meg LeFauve: Jodie, maybe this is too open ended, but you know, a lot of people who listen to this podcast confront the anxiety of the creative process.

Yeah. And I think they use it as an excuse to say, well, that, that means I'm not talented or that means I'm not really a writer or that means, you know, and it's a lot of our show is about, no, that, that means you are an artist.

Can you talk a little bit about the anxiety of the creative process for you?

And I know we'd spoken beginning a little bit about as you age, it shifts and changes, but it does seem to always be part of the process, like it just seems to be an element of it.

Jodie Foster: Yeah. Yeah. Thank God that you're anxious and don't think you have all the answers. You know, I think it is a part of the process.

I think if you're, if you create something and you think it's just perfect, just the way it is, and it's just extraordinary, and everybody should just, you know, lie down and and pray in front of it you're bound to make it really terrible. You're just bound to make it terrible, people.

Part of the humility is part of what makes great art is continually questioning yourself and, you know, wondering whether it's good enough, wondering if you're good enough, wondering if the truth is true enough.

I think that's an essential part of the process and that humanity is what allows you to have relationships with people and those relationships are what allows you to have good creative partnerships.

Lorien McKenna: I really respond to the, is it true enough? Because I can overthink and beat myself up. And then I ask the question, am I making it different or better?

But I think asking, is this true is a much more powerful barometer of why I'm making the change or why I feel like making the change, what I'm changing it to. So I think it's a real gift. So thank you for that. Cause I think that will make me feel more curious rather than falling apart and overthinking.

Meg LeFauve: Yes. It's igniting curiosity.

Jodie Foster: Yeah, and look, you know, when you're working with actors, you know, sometimes there are things that bug them. A line bugs them. A blocking bugs them. Or a piece of clothing that they were asked to wear in the script bugs them. And you can't just cast it aside and say, well, that doesn't matter because it's right for what I plant.

You have to listen to that, you know, and say, okay, all right, I get that. Well, A, why, and B, what's the alternative that's going to allow all the other pieces to come together too? But also listen to yourself, because things bug you too. And sometimes you can't solve it in that moment. You know, that's the hard thing.

You can, you can look at a, you've, you've written 10 pages and you're like, oh, this bugs me, but I don't know why you just have to keep going. And eventually down the line, whether it's a year or six months or a week things will happen and you'll figure it out. And you can't possibly have all the answers in that moment.

All you can have are your feelings about it. And then you can park the answers and say, like, I'm going to figure out the answer later. I'm just going to acknowledge that I have a feeling about it. I'm going to write it down and come back later.

Meg LeFauve: Amazing. Jodie, we always, thank you so much for being here.

We always end the episode asking the same three questions. What brings you the most joy in your creative process of being a director and or actor?

Jodie Foster: You know, what's crazy is….

You do this thing that's hard, but you do it with these people. You do it with 125 people. And we are all there in the middle of the night in the freezing cold with our, you know, dumb REI outfits on. And hot pads on our shoes. And we're not, you know, the boom guy's not holding a boom because that's all he ever wanted to do was hold a stick. You know, he's holding it because he wants to be a part of something meaningful. And when you're there with all those people, you're creating this meaningful thing in a context with a group like a summer camp. And it's a once…it only happens once. That moment only happens once and you can't recreate that context.

You know, Iñárritu said to me, a whole bunch of people got a thing and he got an award and he said, “what's crazy about this award…is that it's like me and my wife made love and she got pregnant and we had a baby and now everybody's going like congratulations. You made this amazing baby” and he's like, “I didn't do anything.”

“I just had sex with my wife and yes, that was a great moment and it was amazing and truthful and beautiful.” But like, “I'm not responsible for what came out of this moment of truth.” And I guess that's what I like the most about the creative process.

Lorien McKenna: Okay. The second question is what pisses you off about your life as a creative?

Jodie Foster: Well, you know, you're probably I'm gonna try and give me a pep talk and tell me I shouldn't feel this way, but no, never feel really mad at myself and really like, it doesn't go away that I feel that I was given all of these amazing opportunities that I was either too lazy to pursue, or I didn't do it, I was just too busy doing something else that didn't end up even being fulfilling.

I watched all of these opportunities that were given to me. And I don't even know why they were given to me. They were given to me because, who knows? Maybe they were given to me because I had, you know, white skin or blonde hair or I had a great education or a whole bunch of privileges. But I still look back on them now and think like, why didn't I do that thing?

Why didn't I call that guy back? Or, you know, he offered for me to do this thing and I didn't do it. And I do feel like sometimes like I didn't live up to the promise that my mom had for me or that I had for myself, that I know that's crazy because I did a lot of stuff. But, I'm still tortured by the, by all the promise that I didn't fulfill.

Meg LeFauve: We say yet. Of course, I would talk you out of that, but there's still a yet.

Lorien McKenna: That really resonates. I think as you get older and you start to catalog all the missed things because you, I mean for me, this is not a pep talk, but like I didn't know it was an opportunity at the time. I wasn't ready to take it on.

Like, why didn't I call that guy back? At the time, I thought he was just calling me. As a pity or who even is that like three years later, I'm like, Oh, my God, I just realized who that is and what that meant. And, you know, so it's part of it is, I just didn't know, or I wasn't ready, or I would have failed anyway, so part of it is that, but then, you know, I am on this journey of, “you know.”

I'm on a journey. Yeah. So not to talk you out of it, but like just in my own experience, I think probably a lot of our listeners to like some of it's just ignorance. We just didn't know.

Jodie Foster: Yeah. And look, those opportunities get less and less as you get older, you know, there aren't as many people out there.

Who wanted to discover the great young, whatever, right? So you, you turn a certain age and there are, there isn't a platter full of donuts that are being passed to you all the time.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: And the last question we have, Jodie, is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self - and you started your career so young, this will be an interesting answer I'm sure, for you - but what advice would you give that Jodie?

Jodie Foster: Yeah, I don't know if that it's so much about career. I think it was more about personality. I think that I could say no and that I had the freedom to decide what I wanted to do. Like this new generation of young people have an understanding of that, that they can say no, that they can say that feels uncomfortable or I don't want to in my heart or that isn't my instinct.

I guess I thought as a woman in the 60s growing up, I thought I had to make everybody feel good and I had to make men not feel bad and I had to say yes to things that I didn't want to do.

And I just wish I knew that I had a choice.

Meg LeFauve: Jodie, thank you so much for being here. It was as spectacular as I anticipated knowing you. Yeah. Just your incredible intelligence and depth of humanity.

Jodie Foster: Well, there's nothing I love more than talking about making movies and talking about the creative process. There's nothing I want, I love more.

And I wish that it was a full time job and I could actually get paid for it. That would be awesome. I said, I want to be a professional, like an opinion person where you call them up on the phone and it's like, 500 an hour, and you just give your opinion.

Lorien McKenna: I think you just invented that job. Congratulations. You're the official opinion person of Hollywood. There you go.

Meg LeFauve: All right, Jodie. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Jodie Foster: My pleasure. Love seeing you, Meg. I can't wait to hear about everything.

Lorien McKenna: Thank you so much to Jodie Foster for joining us on today's show. TRUE DETECTIVE will be coming out in the fall on HBO.

Meg LeFauve: If you haven't yet, come on over to the Facebook group. There's a wonderful community over there ready to help and support your creative process. And I mean that, I know it sounds like a tagline, but I mean it. There is, we are having incredible conversations over there. People are asking questions, so come on over and join us.

Lorien McKenna: Thank you so much to Jeff and Savanna for producing. And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.