153 | Is My Script Ready To Send To Producers? (ft. Ted Hope)

You finally get the meeting, make the connection, and a bigshot producer is excited to read your script. But you panic. Is it good enough? Is it READY? Today, award-winning independent film producer Ted Hope walks us through those always complicated questions, and answers TONS more along the way.

FOR MORE: https://tedhope.substack.com

TRANSCRIPT

Meg LeFauve: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the screenwriting life. I'm Meg LaFauve

Lorien McKenna: and I'm Lorian McKenna and welcome to part one of our two part conversation with celebrated indie film producer, Ted Hope. Today, we'll be talking about indie film development, but stay tuned for our part two dropping next week, where we'll be chatting about the state of the business and indie production.

Meg LeFauve: Ted is an award winning producer who is recognized as one of the most important champions of independent film in our business. Ted is co founder of Good Machine, This Is That, and Double Hope Films. His credits include The Ice Storm, The Brothers Macmillan, American Splendor, In the Bedroom, and Happiness.

Lorien McKenna: He parlayed his independent producing experience into launching and co running movies for Amazon Studios, but has now moved back into the indie space, maintaining a first look deal with the studio. His most recent production, Cassandro, directed by Roger Ross Williams and starring Gail Garcia Bernal, comes out this fall from Amazon Studios.

Meg LeFauve: Hey, Ted, welcome to the show. I'm so honored to have you here.

Ted Hope: Thank you, Meg. Thank you, Lauren. I

Meg LeFauve: was lucky enough years and years ago to be a mentor at the Sundance Producers Lab. And I of course had heard of Ted Hope. I was admired from afar, but to sit at a table and watch his mind work and work on story.

And specifically for this episode today was truly amazing and astounding, and I loved it. And so I was so thrilled, Ted, when you agreed to be on the

Ted Hope: show. I think that was the first Sundance creative producers.

Meg LeFauve: It was. It was the very first one. That's how long ago. Yes, it was the very first one. I

Ted Hope: also had financing falling apart on a movie while we were doing it.

Meg LeFauve: Why wouldn't you remember that burned into your mind? Okay. So first, before we get into talking with Ted, we're going to do our segment adventures in screenwriting or what happened this week. And Ted has agreed to join. So Laurie and start us off. How was your week? It was good.

Lorien McKenna: I I was have been thinking about how lucky I am to get to be a part of this podcast and get to talk to these amazing people and how much inspiration and challenge I get from all of these writers and creators and directors and producers that we talked to on a recent episode.

We talked about. It's not that I don't have to write. It's that I get to write. And so I've been really trying to start my day with that so that I don't feel the, Oh my God, I have so much to do and write. When am I going to find time to write? It's more Oh, I get to do all these things. And then I get to write sort of carving out the time in that way and one of the things that I missed since the pandemic is just being able to drive, because that's when a lot of creative stuff sort of starts to bang around in my head.

I recently had the opportunity to take a very long drive and I came up with two Hello everyone. Ideas for new TV pilots that I'm going to write and both are very exciting to me. But because I had that long drive where I got to sort of like ruminate and sit around and roll with it, I didn't, I didn't give myself the opportunity to be like, Oh no, I can't do that.

It's too complicated. It's too dumb. I got to go do the next thing. So I think part of it for me is I get to write, but I also get to carve out those spaces So I can walk or drive where I'm alone and I get that blue sky internal. Rattling around in my own head kind of place because that's so fun and I feel cheated of that in a big part because of the pandemic because I wasn't driving back and forth all over, you know, the West side and the valley and all that stuff.

So I'm trying to be not optimistic because that's not my jam, but I think it's generous with myself and my creative process. So that's where I am right now.

Meg LeFauve: Awesome.

Lorien McKenna: Awesome. And we'll see how long that lasts. Okay. Time stamp it. Let's see what happens next, Ted. How was your week?

Ted Hope: Well, first, just like getting to hear that and react to it is so interesting to me, you know, and on a couple of bases, you know, I run a free at a pretty high volume of projects and it's me and the, the creative team, whether that's a writer director or, you know, separate writer and directors.

One of the things that, that I find as an indie producer, I, I'm not going to solve any problem with money. I'm only going to solve it with passion and insight. And everything is an exercise in building trust and confidence is how long. You have to plan for right. You know that, like I remember sitting down when I first went into Amazon and saying I wanted to allocate a minimum of three years for development of each of my projects.

And on the series side they were saying, but we only allocate six months. Why does it take you so damn long. Right. And I, I think in some of it is like I get one shot to get it right. I want to get it, get it right. How do you structure for that long term effect? Because when I think through my, my week, I had three writers three separate projects make like nice jumps.

Like in the, in the race to complete the, the, the, the, where we were like, and these have been ongoing for well, each of these projects are well over a year, closing in on minimum of two years on it and done several times previously, but then wow, things are firing again and like a new headway. It occurs and and I always try to think through how can we as collaborators engineer that process to get to that jump?

And certainly some of it is the quiet time of pondering. I find it interesting like how we, we inadvertently structure that drive time. I, I do miss my, that I don't miss much having, having had a job that I had to go to, but I actually do miss my drive time. I, I take regular walks. I take regular walks without headphones.

I live in the West side in Santa Monica and, you know, like today was interesting. It seemed like dad's day to walk the dog or the baby. All the dogs and babies are being writ, walked by their dogs. But I actually look at people to see if they have headphones because I actually think the writers don't have headphones, right?

I get great joy I write a, a newsletter on Substack, Hope for Film. My wife write, writes a, a newsletter on Substack, Question of Peace, where both wouldn't call ourselves writers. But we love doing this and we both look forward to it. And one of my problems is I know how I work and so I have to do a really rigid cutoff line.

I only get to write Between eight and nine, I am right, except for the weekends. I can write. And so I love that time. And so, it's yes, I know I should be exercising, you know, during that time. It's a great time. And I, but I, but a lot of times when I had just a start of an idea. I use that writing time to kind of that walk that that time that writing time as walking time to essentially outline what I'm going to say, right, you know, so I was like, okay, I'm going to walk for it for 45 minutes, and I should be able to produce 15.

You know, headings 15 subjects that I'm going to touch upon during that time. And I'm pondering, I'm looking at the blue sky. I'm looking at the dads or the moms walking the dogs or the babies. And you know, I'm, I'm just, just keeping my head open and it's the most refreshing thing that I get, you know, I love both New York and L.

A. I was energized by the kind of random access inspiration you get in New York of just walking on the streets. You know, I see more people in half a second in New York City than I'll see on my entire 45 minute walk, you know, on the west side here. But. I don't get like the, you know, I might be firing on all synapses, but I won't get the in depth thought to kind of solve it.

And I think that in much the same way of my minor creative practice of, you know, writing a newsletter versus the longer term collaboration I have with the writers. Finding those ways to kind of structure the, the breakthrough, the aha, right. Is such a big part of the process that even, you know, I think I'm 35 plus years in on this now, like I'm still on, I'm finding new prompts, new methods to do it.

New successes and new failures and like that's every week and precisely like hearing like the joy of the two ideas from you like I get to hear that idea of the person that is been stilted or blocked, you know, thinking they're coming to the end. All of a sudden say that that. And occasionally they say, God, thank you for being here with me through this process and doing it because you don't get much of that structure.

Our industry hasn't structured that as, you know, whatever you want to call the producer in that equation is the, the, the sounding board, the, the. The person that pokes and provokes, you know, whatever it is that we do let's think this out. We don't have much room to just ponder and wonder. Yes, we don't.

And

Meg LeFauve: even when we do, like me, I suddenly start to avoid it because my week is basically taking walks very much in tune with you. And I have a new podcast I am listening to because I'm trying to avoid my writing. So I'm not pondering and looking at the trees. I'm actually just trying to listen to somebody else's world.

And I'm listening to, julia Louis Dreyfus's new podcast called Wiser, where she's interviewing women in their 70s, mostly in their 80s and even beyond about what they learned about life. And the two takeaways I have for me personally was Jane Fonda talked about no as a complete sentence. And I was like, all right, yes, I do not as a woman have to explain in a million different ways why I'm saying no to that.

And because, you know, I say this to my son, you know, if you say yes to somebody else, you're saying no to you because you're giving that time away. And sometimes that's appropriate and sometimes it is not. And the other one was Isabel Allende, who of course her hour and a half was amazing. But her and Julia had this whole riff on.

If you're creating, you have to love it. You have to be in it and love it. And you can't wait to get there. And you're so passionate about it. And she was like, and if you're not, then don't do it. And I was like, Oh, I literally was like, Oh shit. As

Lorien McKenna: a writer for hire. That's always a little tricky, right? I

Meg LeFauve: don't, I very rarely feel like I can't wait.

Like I just, that's just not me. I find it. And I know there are. Other very well known writers who talk about it as torture. I'm in that camp over there until it isn't. And I know that like sometimes it is my fear. It's the buildup. It's that it doesn't work. You know, like Ted, like you were talking about and you haven't had that breakthrough or you're starting.

Starting is always the most hard for me. I just can't get into the pool. I do not in real life jump into cold pools. I don't. I go down the steps very slowly. Little bit, little bit, little bit. That's unfortunately. How I do, I do this. So, I mean, it was also just a good reminder. That's how people's processes are either.

What we're doing and I are talking about on here each week. You have your own process, and it's good to hear that Isabel loves, she's not passionate, she's not sitting down to write, I think that's spectacular. It's not me, and that's okay, and that we're all gonna do our own process, and I'm getting so in judgment about my process that I'm not doing anything.

So, I just need to take a break, I needed to take this mental break. I will start tiptoeing back down into the water until I find the passion and the enthusiasm and why I agreed to do the project to begin with. So one more

Lorien McKenna: thing about this, listening to you talk I realized that my process is very much binge.

Right. There'll be nothing. And I'll think, Oh my God, I have no more ideas. I'm the worst. I can't think of anything. And then all of a sudden I get the idea that I love and I keep forgetting that every single time that that that fallow period is necessary somehow. I and I forget. So right now I'm super energized and excited and I'm going to go dive in straight into the deep end of the freezing cold pool.

But most of the time I don't even go to the pool. So it's sort of like, how do I. I'm

Meg LeFauve: really not that. Yeah, it is. My process is nothing and procrastination and then worry and judgment about it or just full in binge. And by the way, I eat cookies the same. I either no cookies or I eat all the cookies. It's just how my brain works.

And it was Ted. Ted's what podcast did I say? I

Ted Hope: was coming on, but it's so interesting to me, you know, because I think like on one hand, you've, you've defined Indie. Right? I don't indie is a difficult term, not my favorite. phrase, you know, but I would, I think what it actually encompasses for most people is passion and love, driven by passion and love, you know, akin to the French amateur, doing it, not professional, doing it for love.

And that's kind of really the dividing line of professional screenwriting and indie screenwriting, right? That but. I think a big practice for everybody always is the broadening of our love, right? Like, how do we find the things that, that we enjoy that excite us in smaller and smaller details and start to start to feel like the, the secret alphabets that they start to put together, right?

Like the connections that are, that are there. And that is such a fun process. There's a great show up in New York at the Morgan library. I'm not going to get the artist's name, right? American female artists. I think of Armenian background. And it's called something like uncommon denominator. And she had the curators of the library pick some articles that they loved that had never been exhibited.

And then with her work and other things that she liked, she put together a connection. It's one long sentence, the whole exhibit. And it kind of shows the kind of ready made nature of art. It shows common inputs. It shows how, you know, art and conspiracy is often about like filling in the blanks that really are not there.

One creates art and the other thing creates some sort of wild, you know, theory that doesn't probably have much to do with the real world. But they, they operate in that when we see two things, we want to understand how they fit together, right? You know, and that gives birth to a lot. The more that we find that we cherish in different little ways from objects to people, to places, to processes along the way, the longer we can have that spark that helps us dive in.

I, you know, I have to sometimes, I've worked so hard to develop my, Breath that sometimes I have to push these other things down because I'm faced not with one wormhole, a rabbit hole, but 20 in front of me at the same time. It's just ah, what am I, what am

Lorien McKenna: I going to decide? I feel seen. I feel seen by this wormhole analogy.

I'm getting a little, I'm losing my breath right now. Just thinking about

Meg LeFauve: it. So Ted, let's say you've got these wormholes in front of you, which are probably personal, but also professional in terms of the different projects that you have and what's working, what's not. I'd love to just take you, take it through you know, what, why, why would you choose a project as a producer?

And then. Developing that project, you know, there's the vision of the filmmaker but there's also your input and getting them past their blind spots. So, can you take us to those, through those two steps for you

Ted Hope: in the development process? The, the first part of selecting to sign on for a project, you know, is really like how your own radar or pattern recognition works at assessing somebody's devotion to reach the finish, right?

Like, how do you. I talk with other producers quite a bit that, you know, how do you recognize particularly when they might be more of a neophyte or somebody transit oftentimes when you work in the indie realm, somebody who's been successful one aspect or certain types of story wants to try something else and they bring it to you.

And sometimes there are reasons why they haven't ventured out of that safe space to, to more of an experiment, experimentation realm. So the first thing is are they actually someone with a completion urge? Right? I'm trying to figure that, that out and what is their own energy to it? Because I know that it will always take longer than what they suspect.

The common thing, often for me. Is somebody telling me, okay, just for the sake, it's January. We want to shoot by the end of the year. We know we're not done yet in the script. Will you help us get it, get us there and find the financing and package it Ted. And when I say yes. I'm already in. I'm not saying I'm adding two years to the process, but I know that's really going to be the case.

And so I'm trying to understand that they're there. And because of it, that next piece is like, am I going to enjoy my time with this person having drinks and coffee and dinners and zooms and meetings? Are they going to be someone that that I feel are enriching my life? Yeah. Right. And that I feel good about being with as a person, right.

Which isn't to say that I work with a handful of difficult people. I don't shy away from difficult people. I find I love somebody that is rigid on making the best thing they can possibly make. And that generally makes them. Difficult, quote unquote along the way, but I do want to feel good about them as somebody I spend time with and how they think and what their values are and all of that.

So like, how do I assess that?

Meg LeFauve: And have you also at this point? Obviously, if you're gotten to the point of having a drink with them or to, to assess if you click and if this is going to work as a partnership, you must have had some spark towards that material, right? Is there something inside the script for our writers that you as a producer are looking for in the storytelling?

Ted Hope: Well, there, there is, but both. You know, if I'm saying like, let's just say, I feel like it's going to take me three years in development and two years to get it made, right. I have to think that I'm going to still be sparking with ideas through those five years time, right? Like there, there isn't a place to stop.

And any of it, the writing, the filmmaking, the finessing, the positioning. So I want to have. New ideas on a constant basis, and I have to feel that this material has that. Well, I'm somebody that that loves complexity. I recognize that most nuance nuance and particularly in the film. Itself and what you present is going to be lost on most people that most people because the speed of which stories unfold in the sensory overload of cinema aren't going to be looking for all the same clues that I am.

I've had to learn that really the hard way. I will always lean towards nuance and then you just kind of recognize at a certain point the audience isn't seeing the same difference between this scene and that scene. They equate them. They're not challenging it and you can't chase that. But that nuance and complexity is what's going to keep me being strong.

I think everyone I know would agree like the two hardest bits of the process is reading new drafts. And watching new cuts, that's really, really hard to come in with beginners eyes with full heart and soul and see it for the first time. Every time you turn the page or, you know, turn off the lights to watch, you know, how do you, how do you keep that alive?

I have a whole host of themes that, that attract me. Right. And, you know, like I, I do believe that as a professional, not the amateur side from the heart as a professional, I always need to speed up my recognition processes, the ways which I know, again, recognize, that this is right for me, and I'm going to do a good job.

And I, you know, that's factored in. With for me to do a good job. I'm all I always have to be learning. I always have to be experimenting. So I'm looking at the material in whatever pass I received it in and asking myself what's it going to look like when we start to unpack it and go deeper and deeper and deeper?

Right? So, so it has

Meg LeFauve: to have that richness and complexity or you're going to run out of steam pretty quickly. So these are not black and white. Ideas or thematics, they're complex and no one answer,

Ted Hope: I would think. And they're ongoing. There's a that I don't think most people I would even argue should know, but I think most people don't know in those early drafts of the script yet.

What really are all the themes that generally speaking, when I read a script and I try to do my, my process and dive, I'll come up with somewhere between 15 and 30 themes that we can look at. For the movie that we are working to try to to structure and I don't think we have to get it down to one mind you like no do I think it's an A and a B, I would be much more inclined say ABCD and E, but we're not going to really be storytelling probably the latter three, we're going to be that's going to be more within the aesthetic of what we're doing.

And it's for only those that are the deep Fans, but those deep fans that's going to give a project it's long life right along the way, but to then think like what what happened for me, to jump into a parenthetical rabbit hole. Was I, I always had a very story character theme related development process.

I had partners that were also committed to that in the development. We, we balanced each other well, and we would work the script from that. And I kind of looked at that always is what producers do, right. You know, try to make sure that what the intent of the author. And that can be multiple people is, is landing on the page, helping to develop expectations for, for the audience and can ultimately be tracked.

We can say, this is where we think the audience is. When I started collaborating as an executive with many producers, I found that incredibly lacking. Right. That the producers and not necessarily because by, by their own design were often lacking at that kind of deep knowledge and understanding of the script.

And they were frequently weren't even interested in developing it. Right. And I, I felt like I always like one of the problems to solve as I see in the film business is how to lift the good into the great, great. IE genius, I think, is always there. There are those that are going to do it right. And then those that are going to do it maybe one or two times, there are those that are going to do it 15 times, but that's a set group and frankly, they don't really need too much of my help.

Right. But there's an ever expanding group of folks who actually are really good, who can deliver that C plus B minus B, maybe even B plus thing, but we haven't developed the processes to get them there. And that's where I think a team effort often exists to bring it to that next step. How do we do that?

And I find it interesting that as you know, a industrialized cultural community. Enterprise. We haven't tried to get those refinement processes in place to lift things up. And so that's what I when I went back to independent producing really wanted to do with my projects. How do we put the time in to make it from what's already really good into that much better?

And the challenge of that, I think, is that We are such a results oriented, such a speed oriented accomplishment oriented. Industry and culture that if you speak openly about the amount of time that's required, you know and who that's really for, because it's still film in the film industry, I think, is still generally one that's focused on concept.

We go to see what we already think we want and know, right? As opposed to just the execution of it. And so there's a argument, particularly in corporate halls that, you know, you don't have to hit that fine target, far better to aim for the thing that has a big, easy. You know, goal in mind. And if you deliver 80%, you basically get the same audience as if you delivered 95%.

But the type of work I love that shows, you know, humanity, and the specificity of that individual and their lived experience within it. Requires that incredible refinement, right? And the beauty of it when it's delivered is I think it lasts across time, right? It has, it's not disposable, which is what I feel a lot of it is.

So how do we develop the processes for indie film for that, which is driven by passion to bring out that specificity in a way that still lands and then gives the, the, the work, the legs to live for eternity. That's, that to me is like a good question for everybody. Yeah.

Lorien McKenna: So I do not have the answer to that, but I was really intrigued by your idea of completion urge and that that's what you're looking for in a writer. So what are, you know, that's, okay, do I want to spend time with this person? Do they have completion urge? Are they going to get the work done? Are they going to communicate with me about what their blocks are and all that?

What kinds of questions are you asking a writer who say brings you that B script? Like it's in there. You can see it. So like you sit down with them after you've read their script. Tell us about that conversation.

Ted Hope: Well, I think it begins with, with kind of, you know, let's say those 15 things that I've kind of warmed to and when I've read the script, all these different things that I think that can be explored.

I'm going to talk about what those themes are, right? And I'm going to have it as a conversation, right? That's a long conversation, right? That I would argue that's probably six to eight hours of discussion, right? And you can't tell somebody I want to have A preliminary conversation with you for eight hours, , I have to say.

Lorien McKenna: That sounds dreamy. Yeah. Someone reads my script, does all this work, and pulls all these things that maybe I don't even know I'm aware of. 'cause that happens too. And then you wanna talk to me about my script and my work and my journey with this project and possibly as a whole writer and creative for all day.

I mean, I hope there are snacks, but yes, that, that's like a dream kind of, yes. So I, I mean, I would love it. Maybe other writers wouldn't, but that would be very exciting. What I'd be looking for, for the writer's perspective is what have you, how are you seeing this project in a way that maybe I didn't see, but also challenging me in terms of things that you notice in terms of Okay, structurally, maybe there's something's broken here and you're not fully pushing through this one theme here, like working through my blocks.

Is that something you do?

Ted Hope: Well, yes, but interesting on how you, you raise it because I feel that You know, we are, we, we, we made a determination determination as a industry and a culture that foregrounded for lack of a better term, storytelling. Right. Plot first. Right. And then, you know, a lot of times people say that Indy is character specific and, and driven second.

Right, but the question of the thematic, right? And then the structure and form are way in the back, right? And I actually like to move that stuff forward because I think we make wrong choices in the end. If we don't understand where we wanna, you know, head to and drive to. So, and I think that there is, you know, both a logic.

But also an impulse and something that is the lack of a better term more mystical right where we have a feeling like I love what you said that, you know, Jane fund is no is a is a full sentence full conversation I would I would say that it took me as somebody who likes to. Cry and poke and unravel and try to put back it.

It took, you know, it was a long time in my career before someone said Ted. I know the answer to this and it believe me like my eyes are actually starting to water just saying this but believe me when I say like it is my driving force of why I want to make this movie. And if I tell it to you and I share it to you, it's going to unravel.

And so I'm going to ask you. Not to ask me about that again, trust me that it's there and know that it's a driving piece because that puzzle, that thing that is driving me forward is in every detail of what I'm telling and you're going to feel it, right? And your mystery as to what it is, you know, like it's germane to me personally, but the mystery of what that is and why we care so much about something, right?

Which is, you know, generally love and loss and, you know, and hopes and dreams. We all will feel, we will all feel that, but the expression of it, Ted, I'm not, I don't have to share. And I, I accept that often. Like when I begin a process, I set, you know, like it's so important that one, it's a safe space and you can share anything, you know, that it's between us.

And two, you have to also say that I've got this now. I'm like, because I, I've done these processes that, you know, literally are probably close to 40 plus hours of time. And at other times with people, you're five hours in and they're like, I'm ready to go. And I don't need any more of this.

Meg LeFauve: Well, because your brain does start to fry after a while.

If I have an eight hour conversation, I wouldn't be able to do it. I'd be like, okay, let's do. Two hours and then break and then come back tomorrow and I have to process

Ted Hope: I mean, I can't even do that. I know like I spread it out. It's got to be spread out hours maximum.

Lorien McKenna: See, I'm all like, let's get in the pool and freeze to death all day and then climb out and collapse and let it all

Meg LeFauve: swim around.

I want to go back to what you said about I'm assuming the creator who can say to you, I need you to trust me that it's in here and I don't want to articulate it. Is a well known proven creator because I do remember when we were at the Sundance lab working together on those projects, which are all more emerging or have done one feature or so projects We were very diligent, and I don't think we planned this, but you and I were very diligent about trying to help them articulate what this is about so that we knew how to help them develop it, because otherwise we would develop it into something else that it isn't.

That there's no way for me to help you get to where you want to go unless there's some kind of articulation, even just a pot, even if it's not the thematic, I know this is somehow about redemption. I need a word. I need something. Or we're going to turn it into something that it's not, you might get very excited about it because it seems good, but then when you go to write it, you won't be able to do you remember that process?

I mean, you might, I don't know, you've done so many, but and that's where I brought up Jody's definition of this, which is the big, beautiful idea in here. You know, she always would ask that, like you had to articulate it to her. Any writer or director walking in knows Jodi's. you had to articulate it to her.

What is the big, beautiful idea? And I think that's different when you're going to an actor and you're further down the road. You've done 15 drafts or something. So certainly at the beginning, I would have deep respect for somebody who can't articulate it yet. But don't you think at some point they have to be able to articulate

Ted Hope: it?

It's two steps. And two different things, actually, in that I do believe in process, you know, like you can go down the wrong road and spend a fair amount of time. And that's not wasted time to then have. Solved why that isn't the right path and you go back because there was something in that path that pulled you towards it that gave you some confidence and you need needed to explore it because you need that conviction later and on every page and in every decision, particularly if you're a writer director, that's going to go forward the Ted Ted, you need to trust me moment is much more on the why it's something matters to you personally.

Right to understand like I'm looking for the that commitment to get you through the next five years. And if something you're saying to me, I don't think is within your experience. And as you've shared, as you've shared, and yet. It has some form of logic flaw that is being presented on the page.

I'm going to be pushing. And that's when that came up. But the, the, the person that shared that with me was a first timer that has proven themselves to be a great artist, you know, and Kind of operating on different principles than many of the folks within our industry does. And I find that super fascinating.

Like you can see the personal for me, I can see the personal in their work, even though it's not necessarily it feels distance from their lives. How do

Meg LeFauve: you know, though, if you were working with a newer person, that they're saying, I don't need to articulate it is avoidance because they are not wanting to go into

Ted Hope: that heat.

I think it's the dedication of everything else, right? I think, yeah, you, that a lot of times, and this is why I like time and process, a lot of times people are practicing avoidance and you clock it. And you are going to say like, how am I going to come back to this? Right? Cause what you're trying as a creative collaborator is, you know, you're trying to problem solve, you know, you're trying to inspire and, you know, sometimes you go over the wall, sometimes you go through the wall, sometimes you go under the wall and I'm willing to do all of that.

And I try to be sensitive to okay, now's not the right time. The great breakthroughs are timing. Right. So you're like a lot of it's interesting. Like I, someone say, what is, what are you trying to do in your career in terms of development? Right. And it's developed pattern recognition, develop a sustainable practice.

Engineer serendipity. It's things like this that you're trying to to do and find that secret alphabet of connection between all of us, right? I'm a big believer that the the more specific and individual and truth emotionally truthful, you deliver the more universal it gets, which is often like Totally taking us into terrain that we haven't been in before, but recognizing what is our shared humanity in that process, you know?

Lorien McKenna: What do you mean by pattern recognition? You've mentioned this before. What is that when you're talking

Ted Hope: creatively? It's too much time in the Amazon zone, I guess, right? But, but you know, what are the circumstances that we've been in? That that lead to repeated results and how do we use those to our advantage, right?

So I believe that if you want to have a sustainable and generative life. Creative life mind you a sustainable and generative creative life that that there are certain things that are going to serve you really well to, to be able to, to have the endurance for the long run and a regular output and like to me.

I'm a big believer in that generative piece because I think you have to be willing to do bad work that you probably don't even hide in your sock drawer. You, you lock it up, you burn it, put it in a locked safe in the back of your sock drawer never to come out again. But and you, and that's like an important piece to, to have, you know, and you're going to find the better way to apply those quote failures to something later where they fit.

And, you know, it's not a, it's not a loss, but to me, like where that starts is a practice of observation of trying to look at. Your world, your community, your industry, your relationships, your personal circumstance, right? And the, essentially, you know, the system that encompasses all of that. Trying to capture that and understand that and see that clearly.

And then to do the same thing for those that you are, things you are passionate about, right? I think it's a super helpful exercise for folks to say, all right. In no more than five sittings and hopefully less than five sittings, I'm going to write out a hundred different things that I love, right? I'm going to write that down.

And then when I'm done, I'm going to write one to two sentences on each of them, however, that matters to me. Right. And we're not going to just list the people or the foods or our favorite albums, right? Like we're going to try to keep them distinct from each other. All of these hundred things. You've missed

Meg LeFauve: an example.

Can you give us one example? If we're not listing our, our food and our

Ted Hope: people? Well, I, I would, I would say, yeah okay, Miles Davis. I love drinking coffee out of this glass, which is a thin lipped. Glass without handles, which is small. So, so like it doesn't overheat, doesn't get too cold. I poured out of a very specific thermos.

And that glass and the process, you know, I do pour over glass carafe. I really enjoy all of that process. It's meditative to me. You know, it's really important. And I feel at home in my space when I do it. You know, I love that. It's beautiful. I have a lot of hummingbirds around my house. Just sometimes they get into the house.

My wife seems to be the one that, that has to always capture them and free them again. But hummingbirds are so remarkable, right? Every time I look at them, I'm like amazed at that at them, you know,

Lorien McKenna: I love it. What you're talking about is specificity, right? You're somebody who loves this particular glass for these reasons and how it makes you feel.

So when you're writing, you want to imbue your imbu, imbue,

Meg LeFauve: how do you say that word? I like imbu. Let's just do

Ted Hope: use that. Put in. Imbu is probably a better way. Imbu

Lorien McKenna: is better. Imbu, I just don't know how to say things or whatever. They

Ted Hope: used to say that I had dyslexia of the mouth.

Lorien McKenna: Oh, I call that loggeria, where it's just a vomit, word vomit.

Ted Hope: Yeah, mine was like, just scramble like scrambling the word, like what?

Lorien McKenna: You put them in a different but what you're talking about is give a character who finds such value and peace and centered grounding in this particular glass for these particular reasons. And then the specificity of that as you were talking, I was like, yes, I love this mug because of its weight and what it has a picture of me on it, you know, and how I, how I am in my family.

It gives me a certain feeling just like other coffee mugs I have give me a certain feeling. And, and sort of when you're a character, it doesn't just. Get some coffee. There's a specific mug or a specific way. They have a relationship with that coffee that tells us who they are. And I, I think it's such a great exercise that you suggest.

I'm teaching a class tonight and I'm like, I'm going to have them do this. I'll give you credit. Of course.

Ted Hope: It's fine. Everything I have is to be stolen and better advantages, but to kind of tie it together. And how it gets to pattern recognition is a little bit like these things become aspects of, for lack of a better term again, mantras of sorts, right?

One of the things that really helped me in my creative was defining for myself what I felt were the qualities of better film, the qualities in cinema that live something from good to great, mediocre to magnificent. What are those things? And it was a three year. Conversation with my with Vanessa, who became, we got married soon after where, you know, I had someone that was interested in this too, and we could, we could parse it out.

And that initial list that I did was 32 qualities, which I found curious later because that was, you know, you know, Mozart and, and Beethoven also found 32 qualities of how you elevate a mediocre waltz into something magnificent. I kept going because as much as I'm a completist and have that completion urge, I somehow think that we still can, you know, find the full list of what all those things are, but I also find it playful.

For myself, but the main thing was once I had that list and had worked so hard on it, and it's available on the internet, you can find it I think it's on my original hope for film website, but it, it became a way that I could look at a script. look at what was happening on set, look at a cut of a film, look at a finished film.

And when I, because frequently it'd be like, you feel that thing bump up against you, but you're not sure why it's not working for you. And by having that list, it was kind of a checklist that I could go through and say, Oh, it's in this. And extending that practice forward to start to find the things that spark for me, the things that I love, the processes, the themes, capturing these things that we care about, right?

And, and trying to organize them and pond, give us the time to ponder them. I think help us in our creative processes to see both what we're aiming for, what might be the missing step along the way. And how else we want to structure, but even more than that, to me, it is all of those things that give it that complexity and nuance specificity that becomes profoundly interesting for me in the, the five years of endeavor, bringing something to the screen.

Right, each one of those like I was having a conversation with an executive today about a project that you know what what I what attracted me to it and what we were aiming for because we, you know, we still have a ways to go. And it was how I find it so fascinating what I would call the forces of chaos and control often enable the opposite of what they are intending.

Right. So control leads to chaos. Chaos leads to control. And I find that. Okay. You just

Lorien McKenna: broke my brain with that statement,

Ted Hope: by the way, one step further, because I actually think the things that enable this. And I, it was something I've known for a long time. And so I was saying like, obviously we can't say this is the studio pitch, but we're going to put it on the poster.

But it's one of the things that why I'm excited about it. What I think enable it quite often are the the structures such as family. Government, you know, society and our natural push, pull, yin, yang, whatever we want to say within that often is why we rebel against sometimes the things we love most. And I find it really fascinating place to dwell.

And so, In this instance, you know, I would call it more like the, the fifth theme of what we're exploring in the movie, but why I think it's so rich. And even though I've worked on it for two years now, I am happy to say whatever it takes, I'm going to get there because we find new things on a weekly basis.

You know, but you have to, you have to kind of capture that before I, I've already captured that as a theme that I like. And then seeing the small things of, you know, when a parent tells a child not to do something and you know, they're really saying I've got to stop doing this myself. Right. And you see, cause I don't want you to become what I am now.

Right. That's a sentence. In a blink of an eye in a moment, but if we can feel that again, like my eyes well up. Right. You know, like parents want something better for their kids, you know, and often they, they lead a discipline that either is going to cause reinforce that circle of abuse or what have you is that has trapped them or might finally say I'm never going to let myself do that ever again.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: I have an emerging writer question. I'm thinking of all our listeners who are listening to what a generous producer you are and how much you're willing to get in the weeds with your writers and spend time with them in development. And it leads to, I think, a tricky conundrum that emerging writers sometimes face, which is that we hear Don't let anyone see your work until you've redrafted it a hundred times and it's perfect and you know it's ready, but also put yourself out there and get your work up on its feet.

It's just so interesting to me. If I had the chance to send you my material, my brain would be saying, spend 20 years on it before Ted sees it. Don't let it like, but I'm also hearing you say, I'm okay with a C plus draft if I know that writer has voice, I'm not exactly asking a question here. But I would love to hear you weigh in, because I wonder if some of our emerging writers’ brains are doing the same thing mine is right now.

Ted Hope: Well, I think there is a clear question, right? You know, who do you give your material to, and when do you give your material to them, right? Personally, I think that as an independent producer, you kind of had to get to the place and it should take you a while to get there that you can manage 25 projects, but you can't manage more than 25 projects, right?

The reason you kind of need to manage 25 projects is you need to be able to make at least one and ideally two movies a year. And I think that it Yes. Thank you for You know, each movie is going to be a minimum of three years. And you know, you need about eight shots for every movie to get made because different things happen.

This actor said, yes, they're no longer available. They're no longer looking for this. They have a competing project, you know, like that, that to me is the, the math. Probably if you want to have a sustainable career, you have to get to that 25 projects by say like year five. Of your regular working career, right?

That's going to take you a little while to get to that place. But once, you know, as a producer that you have a feasible sustaining life, you want to be building that, right? It's super hard to get there, but that's the volume that I work at. So I really don't have room to take on anything new, right? I have room when something falls out, right.

Or it gets made. Right? Those, those, those things occur, and I generally have stuff that I want or filmmakers that I want to work with. I do process, you know, basically there's three categories of work. This is, these are active projects that we're turning drafts in on a regular basis. This is deep development, more in kind of the assessing where, where we are.

And this is super early stage when I'm acquiring the rights to stuff that takes way too long, you know, takes a, you know, like the, the great American novel has become a option agreement. And I don't understand why everything takes too long. We have to fix that process because it doesn't serve anybody. Along the way, but it, the, the fact that clearing rights takes so, so damn long now, I put that in a separate category.

Because experienced producers often already have built a bit of of a slate, you do need to find ways to kind of work the farm team. There are, like, other producers who Often want to work with me who are keeping me abreast of the work that they're doing and they're saying they want to get it to this place and they understand that the workload like, you know, I, I feel badly like sometimes I've accepted a script because I've said I, I, I was curious about it.

And because of the incoming drafts and other professional responsibilities. A year has gone by and I haven't read that script. I just want to shoot myself and quit the business as a, as a result of ever having to say yes, you know, so, you know, the, the questions to me for the incoming writers, how do you evaluate.

How do you put yourself in that producer's shoes and put yourself in the most favorable position? Personally speaking, I love when somebody has already a collaborating team, as long as they're open people. Some people try to hold the relationship as primary, and I don't think that works well for anybody.

And once I get a sense of that, I kind of want to walk away. But if there is a collaborating team that has gone through some things and needs further support and help, I welcome that. And whatever work somebody has done to find their vision is always positive, even if it's not complete or it might go in a wrong direction or they didn't have the proper tools.

You do get no true, you know, you get one chance to have someone read your first draft. I've, I've worked there's a Oscar winning screenwriter I worked with, who said to me they only wanted me to read it. And they wanted when anyone else to look at it for them to think that it was the first draft.

So they wanted to know that I would work with them, like we structured a deal so like it benefited them to, you know, if they created a project that they thought was going to actually get green light, green lit, their quote would go up on their, you know, production bonus. Right. And so they were willing to do all the work.

And, you know, three, four drafts. That never quote got submitted to the studio. You know, we're all the first draft. And so when the first draft went inside into the agency, you know, to go to the studio, the agency went gaga and wanted to throw every, all their top talent at this script my God, this is the first draft and it was quote that draft that it got green lit and got all the attachments that made the movie happen.

But it was engineered around the idea. Is how do we make sure that when people look at it, they look at it as this is the first draft and wow, we've solved all the problems, you know, and it was keeping other people's eyes away and with a trusted collaborator. Right,

Meg LeFauve: because I remember when I worked for Jodi, we would develop a project and go through multiple, multiple drafts.

But I know that when I'm handing it to Jodi Foster, even if she's not going to act in it or direct it, but she's a producer and she has, she reads scripts at a certain level. As long, she's still going to say it's a mess, but right, I love this piece and this and now there's enough there to take it and bring that level of of reader in because we got close enough.

I mean, to me Ted, you are a certain level of reader. So when you say I want younger or or other collaborators, they're doing that churn of getting it to a place. And if there's a clarity to the thematic and the idea and how it works with the storytelling that you know, it's funny because as the writer, you're like, Oh my God, I've already done like 10 drafts and or eight drafts and now, now we're starting.

And the answer is yes, now we're starting because we have the movie. And I think for emerging writers, when you don't have access to all these layers and levels of readers, it can get complex and hard. You almost have to develop them yourself. That's why you have writers groups and things to help you get to a level.

And now it's time you could launch to the next level, right? I think when people say don't give something until it's perfect, they're talking about the Ted Hope level. Like I would not give the Ted Hope level something unless it's really been worked right and vetted. And then I trust you. I don't know Ted that well, but I'm going to guess he's still going to be like, great, we can start.

Ted Hope: And then the truth is like when you then start to say to submit to a studio or something along those lines, that's a whole other process to, you know, and you see sometimes how the system that we've developed might get in the way of actually making that happen that, you know, that. There's a benefit to having the script sent in, I think by agents, but it also cuts back, you know, cause it shows his business and people are there, but it cuts back on the dialogue of trying to hear I want to hear that smart executives thoughts of immediately what they read and what work and where they think the barrier is.

And I want to hear it with my ears, not do another set of hands that will, you know, Can't help but color it with the whatever they favor.

Meg LeFauve: This is my biggest, I have two big things that I hate where it's developed in the industry. One is that they're responding and giving notes to my agent and I don't understand why.

Why aren't they calling me? Why are they giving notes on story to my agent? Like I don't even get it. It's not talk to me. Let me dig into your brain. Let me Let me, let's get, but I just don't think executives at studios right now, and maybe I could be wrong, are developers, they're not, they're, they're kind of giving I don't know.

I don't even know why that's happening. Maybe we can talk about it. And I, and I hate the ghosting when they, when they pass, they just kind of ghost and leave, which I've said that so many times on this podcast. You guys are bored, but I, I just don't know why the agents. And I, again, I don't think my agents are inserting themselves.

I don't have that sense at all. It's just this new thing

Ted Hope: that's happening. Well, I would say and I credit Vanessa, my, my spouse on this, really. Giving me this theme that I love and work, but I love it in practice too, which is us in the system and the system in us, right? How does that get manifest?

And in the film business, what we're experiencing, which I think is part of the real disruption beyond technology, although fueled by it. Is how what was once a cultural industry based upon scarcity has become a much larger industry that's built around abundance. And how do we manage for that? Because I would say that in all of the professional ranks, right?

They are understaffed. Right. They're understaffed in the executive suites. Now that a lot of people would disagree with me on that for a variety of reasons, but I actually think they have way too much on their plate. And what should be not a transactional business, but should be a cultivation business.

We should be farmers, right? Not, not just harvesters, right? That because of that. They, they, they, they move everything like what most development offices are, are PR agencies, right? To keep the relationship with the creative community so that they might get the thing that's even better, right? And I felt that, that from the immediate time I started working as a script reader when I, in my early 20s, right?

It's, wait a second, they actually don't care about most of these projects whatsoever. They want to figure out, is this person going to deliver something better later and how do I service them? So that it comes to me first. Right. And there's a big piece of that. And then the second thing is because they have way too many executives that have somewhere between 80 and 125 projects, I would assume on their, you know, per view that they're tracking.

And, you know, because of that, they, they just see everything as a transaction. And it's yeah, if you don't get back to me within two weeks of that pitch, yeah, it means you're not buying it probably means that if you know if you don't get back to me in three days, it means you're not buying it. I get it.

Right. Yes, I would like to be human. I would like you to treat me as human, I would like you to show that you value my relationship. And I would like to see that you believe that by us working together you sharing what you think is important and I share what's important, we will get to something better.

But they don't really even value themselves to that, their, their filters and funnels, right? You know, and the fact is, they all got great education. They all started because they love cinema. They all think about it all the time, right? Give me some of you. Put yourself on the line too, you know, but that's not what our industry is right now.

And it's because I think of the abundance we're in that abundance, but how we find ways to, to make that work better will determine what the next 10 years of creative enterprise looks like. I will

Lorien McKenna: say there are some executives who do what you're talking about.

Meg LeFauve: Yes, absolutely. There are some.

Ted Hope: No, I got to talk to one of my somebody that, that I've always admired and respected for their story insights today, and it was such a delight to get to talk to that person.

Wow. I want that every day. I was like, come let let me develop with you.

Meg LeFauve: Yeah, I mean, that's really my point is I want more of the I want. What is your insights you've made? What is it they're looking for? What what is lacking? Where are we hitting the wall? What I love that conversation.

That's half of the reason I want to do this, because I love that it back and forth and interaction of digging and insight. So I miss it when I don't get it when it becomes a call to the agent. I just feel more and feels

Lorien McKenna: prescriptive instead of. Sharing in the process, creative,

Jeffrey Crane Graham: right? Yeah.

Ted Hope: Yeah. Which

Meg LeFauve: is what we, and I also understand they might be thinking, well, you're the, you're the writer, you know, but I'm like, okay, I don't know.

I miss it. I love that part of the process.

Ted Hope: I think like a question always, and to me, this starts like with every script, like in what the creative process is, is how do you plan for longevity? You have to ask yourself how not to get jaded. What you're expressing on each of those is folks have gotten jaded.

Right. And really we're in the job of delighting. Our audiences. That's what we have to do. Right. And how do you keep firing on that? Well, first of all, I think you can't get jaded, right? So in questions of what you have to determine to have a sustainable and generative creative life. One of the first things I think you want to ask yourself is what is it that I have to do so that in 15 years time, that's a long distance, but short because you're going to have at least three of those games, I think that, that what is it you have to do?

So you don't, so you feel even better about all that you're doing and the world you're living in and the industry you're part of than you do today. You have to keep that spark alive, right? You know, and I think that for most people, it's going to start with things like, Do no harm. Right? But obviously we've seen lots of people who seem to get off on that on the opposite of that to within our industry, you know, but I think for a lot of people like you're doing those things like I want to be, you know, the golden rules of life.

I want to be treated as I would treat anybody else and so on and so forth. Setting those for yourself, right? I think helps you keep a lot of that noise out because a lot of things that get in the way of writing. Have And then accessing those beginner's eyes that that celebration of unique circumstances is all like the, like, why are people so fucking horrible?

Like, how do you keep that noise out? You keep that noise out by saying I'm not going to put myself in those situations. I'm going to think through what it is that I need. So I get that drive or that walk or the playtime with my family or the walk with the dog or the, you know, You know, whatever the favorite food or drink or whatever people like to do, like you need to structure your life because your creative life depends on it, you know, balance and saying no, I, I don't want saying no.

I think the balance thing. I don't really agree. Like people, people always say, Oh, you got to figure out that work life balance. I would argue as much as I love my family, as much as all these other things, I want to stress all, all I really want to do is make good, interesting stories and work. And my delight, my personal joy has to be managed.

I have to manage that to make those stories, right? Like we don't professionally prioritize that nearly. Enough. Like I find I laugh more on every single zoom call. I'm on than anyone else on the call. Right. You know, you guys are pretty good. But, and we've

Meg LeFauve: been muted. So you haven't heard half of it. Right.

We have been hysterical the whole time.

Ted Hope: But, but that, but that's really like a key thing to keep us generative, but that's what it's in service for me. Like I want to keep making stuff. It's what I have most fun doing. It, what gives me hope and, and strength and and to do that, I have to prioritize my joy, but I do it for my creative processes.

I so love what

Lorien McKenna: you said about management instead of balance because balance is an impossible goal. And so I'm setting myself up for failure and disappointment and beating myself and feeling like shit if I give too much time to my family or not enough time to my work, but if it's about management. I feel like I can do that.

Meg LeFauve: I can manage it. And I love what you're saying about delight. I think that's the little spark I've been missing in terms of diving back into a project is I'm already anticipating all the problems and what won't work and the notes that I'm going to get and there's too many producers on this project or whatever is happening that my worry brain is like already projecting out.

Who knows? PTSD. Who knows? Right. Versus I took this project for a reason. Like I have delight in it. I'm not talking tone now. I'm talking my own delight of that potential. You use the word about potential circumstances. And yeah, that that's where I have to take the walks or do something to get back to that and took, take the rest and manage it out and not.

Not give myself problems. I don't actually have, honestly, and I'm both making them up in

Ted Hope: my head. I agree. It's so much on both of those things. And I think that they're connected maintenance and delight. And I think that that too often we looked for, for understanding too fast okay, so I like to put little dwarfs on this, you know, on the Path as I walk and I like to have, you know, the, the rabbit hole to fall into.

I don't know why I don't think it fits yet, but I'm putting it there. Now I'm reading that script and I'm like, what the hell is this? You know, dwarf and rabbit hole doing here. A fair answer to me is I really like dwarfs and rabbit holes and I'm going to figure this out. Perhaps in the next draft or the other one, or it won't be there.

Like sometimes that's going to be the thing that sparks, right. It's just to me, just like planning your walk and planning your drive, right? Like you found these things that you love. You are inserting them into the, the, the process. They give you a reason to look forward to the day in solving it.

And you will find the secret code that's there that connects it all as you go forward. Because, again, this is like something else I think we, we, we've gotten distracted for, right? And we talk about this in like workplace politics and, you know, relationship dynamics, right? That how, you know, women are expected to have already proven themselves and anything they do, but we're willing to say the man will still deliver that everyone.

Is it an act of becoming and every work is in an act of becoming and that's the pattern recognition that we have to also develop the becoming the faith in the process, right? There's something more, you know. As a friend of mine said to me today, Athena's owl fly, fly flies at at night. Right. Or flies. It does.

Right? Like the wisdom is only going to come later. Right? We, we have to be willing to wait for that, but we can structure, we can engineer the serendipity that allows it to fly. Right? And the pieces of it, like it's a you know, the maintenance line like. There was a, in a Kurt Vonnegut's Hocus Pocus. I think it opens like everyone wants to do a bill, be a builder and no one wants to do the maintenance.

Right. You know, and it's like the maintenance is exactly what what's always needed because your best work is still yet to come and you have to get yourself there. So what are all the steps that are needed along the way and how do we. As your collaborators always, if not just beginners eyes, also looking at things in the state of becoming right.

And that's where I think by trying to develop things like pattern recognition, we get more sophisticated. In it, particularly if we've been rigorous in our efforts to capture those details along the way. What is this world that I'm living in? What is my culture and community? What are the things that delight me?

And how do we get there time and time and time again? Right. And with that I think that as much of it's being process oriented, it's the opposite of formulaic, right? I was having another conversation this morning with a collaborator and just say saying, like, how do we infuse the attic and Arctic comedy.

Into all work, like just that there's something like I find real fun and pleasure in like the things that feel like it's on the verge of falling apart. That's a prankster and a trickster. My God, the Beatles and hard days night whatever that feeling. How do you get that that. Fun chaos into stuff within a studio system that no longer sees that as hip and flavorful, but it's every time someone sees it, I know they love it, you know,

Meg LeFauve: well, I love that because you're really helping me.

I think that in Listening to you, I'm realizing that I think part of my brain unconsciously has been clamping down on structure. All the outside in stuff I have to do in order to deliver this project, be that, you know, if it's a TV thing, what's the story engine? And if it's a genre movie, what are the genre tenants?

And there's, I think I've sucked the fun out of it. I've sucked the delight. I've, I've sucked the curiosity, the discovery, the, out of it. And so I think part of it is not writing. And I am going to hold in my head the black hole and dwarf because this is the fun of writing. I don't know why there's a dwarf there.

I'll figure it out next draft. In terms of my own personal process, we're not saying you hand that to a, you know, executive, your own personal process, let the dwarf be there, let the, like we have on this show all the time, like we just had, we just recorded, you know, there are wonderful outside in things to think about at a certain point in your draft, structurally, you know, reversals, midpoints, blah, blah, blah.

All of that is super important. I am not taking that away, but it's not the creative process. The creative process is there's a dwarf standing in a black hole. I don't know why because it's a dream It's a dream that's coming up and i'm just so invigorated With the thought that I can do this Like why do I think that on my on the first draft that i'm doing this with my husband that he and I have to Create the thing.

No, we don't we can actually put a dwarf there with a black hole and it doesn't matter because we're just gonna Explore. I don't know. I'm invigorated. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate it.

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, I'm really excited about this idea of being able to manage. I, I, I don't know why it never occurred to me.

You know, mental illness is something you manage. Physical illness is something you manage. I mean, I don't want to think about my writing as being an illness, but let's be real. But yeah, I'm never going to achieve balance. It's about managing, managing my time and managing my expectations around, like you said, Beck, what is the assignment?

And right now, as I start this new project, my assignment is joy and delight and fun. And whatever the fuck comes up, I get to write it down. Let's do that. I am so lucky that this is my job. I mean, you know, eventually it will get paid

Meg LeFauve: for someday, right? We're allowed to say there's a black colon dwarf.

Like, how cool of a job is that? I literally, I've gotten too down into the job job of it. And that's not the fun part. So we're going to go on and on. We do have to wrap it up. We have to see Ted. I'm sorry. We're just going to keep you here forever.

Ted Hope: Yeah, we have a whole lot. I want to put a a tag on what you were saying, because I think that some of what we're talking about is a privileged position after a lot, lot of experience.

Right? Because it is the mechanics of everything that allows the work to get done. And it is the repetition, you know, through repetition, you know, we in instinct, you know, we, we can, through that repetition, we, we learn how to solve all these problems and it becomes instinct and it's centered within us, you know, for structure.

Right? You, you know, character arcs, you know, you, you know, all of these different, the genre tenants, right? It helps to have them down, I think, to kind of give a refresher course sometimes, like I'm going to read my genre 10 commandments before I, So, you know, begin work on this, but it's inside you already because you've done that, that work.

That is part of the process of getting there. Much harder is how to keep that openness, delight, joy, becoming, you know, a comfortability with the unknown. Like I would argue, our lack of acceptance in the unknown is where most of our societal Problems start to come from, like, why do we need to answer the unknown?

Right? Like it's actually pretty fun. Like I like to go into a world. I'm not sure what's happening next, but yet we try to get rid of the unknown and we, we start, start to structure our lives. So we have less and less of it. And I'm saying like, that's where you want to bring that in and not see it as your enemy, right?

But see it as your tool and, you know, play thing.

Meg LeFauve: Absolutely. It's so helpful for me right now because I have been seeing it as my enemy and it's shutting me down versus the delight. Man, the dwarf in the black hole can not wait, can not

Lorien McKenna: wait to make a t shirt like a garden gnome. That's what I keep saying.

Ted Hope: Well, it works for Emily.

Meg LeFauve: Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. We're going to ask our last three questions in the next episode, I think, because that'll be our wrap up with you. But thank you so much. And we can't wait, Ted, for the next for the next episode.

Ted Hope: Yeah, great. Super fun. Thank you. It was really fun with you guys.

Thank you so much, everyone,

Jeffrey Crane Graham: for tuning into this week's

Ted Hope: episode of the show. Part one of our conversation with producer Ted Hope.

Jeffrey Crane Graham: As Laurie mentioned at the top, we are back next week with part two, so make sure you're subscribed. Stay tuned and the rest of our conversation will be dropping

Ted Hope: in your feeds in exactly one

Jeffrey Crane Graham: week.

See you then.