189 | Create Your Hollywood Game Plan w/ Carole Kirschner

Carole Kirschner, the director of the CBS Diversity Writers Program & WGA Showrunner Training Program, is passionate about helping creative professionals build thriving Hollywood careers. Whether you're an emerging writer of a pro, Carole will offer you PRACTICAL advice as to how to approach this ever-changing business.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. I'm Lorien McKenna and today we're talking with Carole Kirschner. Carole is one of the top entertainment career coaches in Hollywood and an author and public speaker who runs two prestigious programs for writers: the Paramount Writers Mentoring Program and the WGA Showrunner Training Program.

Through her work, Carole seeks to help creative professionals build successful careers in the industry. She is also the author of The Hollywood Game Plan, a book that teaches how to land a job in film, TV, and digital entertainment with concrete steps and exercises that will help upcoming creatives get their careers on track.

So welcome to the show, Carole. 

Carole: Thank you. You know, that, that introduction almost sounds like I wrote it. 

Lorien: I only added one thing, which was exercises.

Carole: You did, I loved it. 

Lorien: Because I think it's so important in your book that people know that there's actual, like, action they can take when they're interacting with the book. Because I always think that's a more fun way, and a more engaging way, to hang out with a book sometimes, right? I'm gonna go do some exercises. 

But before we get into a deeper conversation about your book we're gonna do what we do called Adventures in Screenwriting. We're gonna talk about our week, so I'll go first.

So, this week I've been thinking a lot about how to focus on things I'm good at rather than dwelling on the things that I need to improve or fix or that I think are broken. And I've been working with a lot of writers recently, asking them to adjust their point of view. And I thought, Hey, as a teacher and a mentor, perhaps I should apply this to myself.

Carole: Yes.

Lorien: So I've been thinking about it and so much of our, I think the way we grow up, how we're enculturated to think is that we are never good enough somehow, like we have to be better, we have to be perfect, and good at all the things. And especially as a writer, there's so many levels of craft that we're supposed to know.

All the things: character, dialogue, structure, how to be in the industry, like, all these things we're supposed to be excellent at. And so, when we think about it, we're like, I'm not good at that. I'm bad at that. 

So what I've been asking the writers I've been working with to do, and what I'm trying to do now is, well, I'm not going to be great at everything, but I'm really good at a couple of things. As a writer, I'm really fucking fantastic at character and dialogue and setting tone. Like I just am. So I'm really confident in those things. And look, I believe it. So it's true to me, right? And all of it is subjective, but I believe it. So I know it. So I have confidence in it. So I push myself. I explore. I take risks.

The other things that I might not be so sure of, I'm more hesitant. I don't take as many risks. That doesn't mean I'm broken, that doesn't mean those things aren't fine as they are because I have friends who are really good at those other things that I can say, hey, I need your advice on this. And then I can build up my skills that way.

But by focusing on what I am good at and holding that strong, then I'm less inclined to think I'm not a good writer, and that I can shift my POV from I'm not a good writer to, what did I write down, to this script could be better if I got some advice from, about this thing from someone who's really good at it.

So that I'm changing, focusing on me as a craftsperson and shifting it to the project and where I need to develop on the project. And for me, that's a really important perspective because I beat myself up all the time. So I'm trying not to use myself as a punching bag so much by focusing on what I'm good at.

And I'm trying to apply this to other areas of my life, but yeah, you know, I'm trying. It's one thing at a time. And the way I'm putting that into practice is that I'm just noticing my thoughts without judgment. So, oh, I noticed when I'm doing this, I am trying to beat myself up here and then I can't fix it. I already did it. So I'm not going to beat myself up about it though. I just keep noticing. 

And maybe I'll start to notice or feel some patterns. So, I'm trying to pay attention a little bit more closely, which I think is helping my point of view, my frame of mind, my mental health around being a writer, being a person in the world.

So, it's really hard. And it's not about confidence, it's not about changing my behavior or fixing anything, it's just a slight adjustment so that I can focus on what I'm good at instead of focusing on what I'm bad at. And I, Carole, I ask writers to do this, I say print out your script and circle all the things you love about it and that will reveal what you don't love.

You'll see what's not being filled up with space instead of what's broken, what do I have to fix, what's not working, right? And so that's sort of a bigger part of that. Anyway, so that was my week, and I hope it continues to be my journey as I'm, you know, you know, Carole, being a writer is hard. Being in this industry is hard. So I'm trying to find tiny spots where I can have control. 

Carole: I love it. I think, well, first of all, I think it's profound because that self sabotage, that sort of self hate, self doubt, it takes away from the things that make you an artist, which is artists have to have a sort of soft soul. Do you know what I mean?

For creativity to come through, you can't be guarded and all of that recrimination and feeling terrible about yourself or bad or broken, it just gets in the way of that, of that flow of creativity. It just, it's like the difference between the editor brain and the writer brain. And I'm sure you talk to writers about this all the time.

The first pass is just the writer brain. It's just your silly child, wonder, delight, curiosity. And then when you're done with that, you bring the editor in to come but they have to be separated because the editor, you know, I have this experience. First of all, I've said, this is so funny. When I heard you do this segment.

Lorien: Yeah. 

Carole: I was going to tell you what my week was like. 

Lorien: Yeah I want to hear what your week is. 

Carole: I will, but let me just finish what I was going to say, which is, when I sat down to write the book, I pitched it, they sold it, and I thought, oh, fuck, what am I going to write? I know three things, but I need to have twelve chapters.

And I would sit down, and because my whole career was working with writers and giving them notes, I am 100 percent editor, or 99 percent editor, so when I had to sit down and write, what I wrote is, I don't know what to say, I suck, this sucks, I suck. And then the, I did what you just said, which is the only thing that unblocked me.

And I have a system for this, was I said, you know, Susan and Bill are going to read this. They're both fabulous editors and they will help me. So I could go down that road and not worry that this was the final end, that there were people smarter than I who I trusted so much who were going to have input in it.

And for me, the way that I was able to just get started was to set a timer. And I'm sure your guests have talked about this. And I only worked for 30 minutes at a time. And even if all I did was sit down and write this sucks for 30, minutes and that gets boring, so after a while, you're going to write something, you know. And then when I was done, I'd make a little hash mark on a piece of paper and then I would do another and then I'd put a diagonal one for each hour that I worked.

Lorien: Oh, that's fabulous. Progress. You're literally physically documenting and seeing progress. That's great. 

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: You know, what you did too is you recognized my process is that I work better when I work 30 minutes at a time instead of trying to force yourself to fit someone else's paradigm of four hours at a time.

And I know I work best when I have a huge chunk of time with no meetings at the end, like I working. 

Carole: Right. 

Lorien: I need to know that I can work as long as I want without having a meeting, right? Having a meeting will blow up my schedule, my ability to focus. And so it's about what is your process and what is working for you and do that instead of trying to change your process to it, just too much change all the time. Too much fixing. Just, you know, What works for you. Do that. 

Carole: That's right. And, you know, what's working well, what could work better? What am I doing well? What could I do better? And when I work with people with mentees and clients about showrunner meetings, I say, a showrunner may try and ensnare you and say, what didn't you like. Never respond to that.

Just say, you know, this is what I loved and this is what I'd love to see more of. And that you're still giving your opinion and honest opinion and saying what you think doesn't work without saying, I don't think this works. This is what I'd love. This is what I loved. This is what I love to see more of. And you can turn that on your own work. 

Lorien: I love that. 

Carole: It's just like what you said. Kick ass dialogue and characters and world building. And that's what you love. And things that you would love to see more of is some structure and story arcs and–

Lorien: But I don't have to sit there and say I'm not great at figuring out exactly where the midpoint needs to be.

I do need like, hey Meg, come help me. And then she helps you move something, moves the needle and I go, ah, perfect. And then it cracks something else open for me. So that's why we have, we, that's why we surround ourselves with people who are smarter than we are. 

Carole: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more.

Lorien: That's great. And so how was your week?

Carole: So this was my week and again you'll hear how profound it was. Probably more profound than yours if you want to know the truth. So I had to have a tooth pulled and you're totally out of it afterwards. Anesthesia and pain meds and all I could do was lie on the couch and watch Millionaire Matchmaker, which I never watch because I think it's stupid.

It was like crack, one after another. And then my daughter came over and she insisted that we watch. Vanderpump Rules and I went, oh my God, I kind of love this, but I hate them. And then what I realized was throughout the world and I speak around the world, telenovelas are what people are addicted to.

And our tel, it used to be soap operas and our telenovelas are reality shows. 

Lorien: Absolutely.

Carole: Cause it's, I love you, I hate you, you betrayed me. And you cannot go wrong without that kind of emotion. I mean, as talented writers, you'll all be much more subtle about it, but that's at the heart of what we respond to. So, that was–

Lorien: I love that comparison. It actually gives me more permission to love the reality shows that I do because they're like telenovelas. 

Carole: Exactly. 

Lorien: Which is a, you know, which is a storytelling art form. And also to give credit to all the writers and editors and story people who work on creating the stories and those characters.

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: I mean, that's a craft too. That's a skill that I think is, a lot of people don't recognize as actually being in the industry and being of value. You know, I respect what they do. It's not easy. 

Carole: I agree. It is not easy. It's a, it can be, the person that has to sit and watch all the footage. It is te–

Lorien: Story editor, right? They're called story editor. 

Carole: Story editors. Right. Yes.

Lorien: Yeah. And then they don't get the credit for being writers. 

Carole: No, they are. They are. The people who shape those stories are the writers. 

Lorien: Yeah. I love that realization. More profound than mine, absolutely. 

So you mentioned the process of, you know, you wanted to write this book, you sold it, you're like, oh no, I have three ideas.

And then what you said, I suck. I suck. Every writer has written that line in their computer, on the, you know, talked it out loud. Everyone has written that, so welcome to the party. 

What was it like when you were actually writing it, right? You said, oh, I have a friend. You gave yourself permission to just start writing your ideas. Had you collected notes about the things you wanted to say, or was it just sort of living in your head? How did you go from, I have three ideas to, I'm going to write twelve chapters. 

Carole: Well you know what's interesting is I knew the content because I've been teaching it. I work with, you know, people just breaking in, I had worked with them a lot. So I knew what I wanted to cover. 

But when they said we want twelve chapters and I went, you know, I have a, I didn't tell them this. I said, great. I had a solid three and a half. What I did is I had lunch with a friend named Chad Gerbich, who is so smart, and he said, what you should do in addition to interviewing high level people is interview people that just got out of college and find out what their story is.

Well, that took up space, which was great and so smart and exactly right. And then I remember thinking, well, you know, where do you live? I mean, I don't know. Where do you find a place to live? And then that became a whole chapter. I thought, really, is that a whole chapter? Then I got somebody to do a map. It's like dated now, but yeah but it's still, you know, Silver Lake and Atwater.

Lorien: Fountain is still where Fountain is.

Carole: That's right. That's right. 

Lorien: Or the easiest way to get into Hollywood, according to Betty Davis. 

Carole: Is Fountain or Santa Monica? 

Lorien: Somebody asked her in an interview, what's the best way to get into Hollywood? And she said, Fountains.

Carole: I'm going to steal that. I'm not going to say you told me that. 

Lorien: Look up the verbatim clip. Look up the clip on it. 

Carole: I will. That's very fun. Anyways, I asked people. I did journaling. I did like a stream of consciousness and would pull some stuff from that when it felt right. I did talk to a lot of people that I trusted and said, and I talked to people who were just breaking in and I said, what do you want to know?

It's, it's equivalent to if you're creating a world and you are good at creating worlds, as you said, is you do some research and you find out what that world is, you don't just make it up. So that, it was an amalgamation of those things. 

Lorien: I think that's really important. You know your audience.

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: Right? But you were also speaking from experience and with higher level writers as well, right? And there's that fine line as writers where we have to be aware of our audience, aware of our market, but also be writing what's true to us. 

Carole: Absolutely. 

Lorien: And what resonates to people who are in a similar sphere. So it's a tricky thing. It's very similar. Like, I'm going to write this TV show. Who's my audience? Like, what are you looking for? But also I have to tell the truth. 

Carole: Absolutely. 

Lorien: Which is what you were doing in that book. Right? You're like, okay, you want to know those things? Well, one of the things you want to know isn't really relevant, so maybe I'm not going to include that.

Right? You know? So, that kind of thing. I think that's jumping to a conclusion there. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure everything everybody talked to you about was relevant. 

Carole: Oh, no, I, some certainly were not, but you know what I say, don't chase the market. Write the thing that delights you. That you want to see, because if you're going, is Netflix going to buy this? Is Netflix going to buy this? I hear they're looking for YA fantasy. You're fucked because you will get to the party late. If an agent or manager told you they're looking for YA fantasy by the time–

Lorien: They already have it. 

Carole: They have it. They have it. So write what you would, I'm sure people have said that, right? What delights you? What, when you write it, you go, wow, I love that. 

Lorien: Yeah, I always say no one was looking for Fleabag. That's right. Absolutely no one had that on their grids. Nothing. And then it showed up and it was like, oh, yes. So, you know, people, you interviewed people and they were like, this is what I want to hear.

What are, how did you develop the exercises that you did in your books? And could you share one or two of them with our audience? 

Carole: Well, nice of you to ask that. First of all, how did I come up with the exercises? My publisher said you need to have exercises at the end of each chapter because they're going to be teaching it in schools.

I'll have to go look at the book because I wrote it a long time ago. Here's the thing too. I was an eighth grade English teacher for one miserable year, and I love making homework assignments. It's like one of my favorite things because when I was like, I guess ten, I would, there was something called mimeograph.

I would just write up all of these like homework assignments and people would have to, and I would hand it out to my friends and say, fill that out. And then I would, you know, mark it. So it was really actually easy for me to do it. I don't off the top of my head, remember which they were, but it was totally fun.

Lorien: So I also like to make up assignments. So I, I hear you on that, like exercises and stuff like that. So it's fun.

Okay. I want to talk about some of your diversity and Showrunner Training Programs. Yes. And, you know, those are big words. It's from the outside. It's like, okay, but what does it really mean? What does it look like when you're in a diversity program or, you know. 

I've done the Showrunner Training Program so I have a sense of what it is, but can you share, what does it look practically? Let's say you get into the diversity program. What is that gonna look like? 

Carole: First of all, we don't call it the Diversity Program. It's the Writer's Mentoring Program, 

Lorien: Writer’s Mentoring Program.

Carole: And looking for diverse voices, looking for diverse points of view.

Lorien: Thank you for the correction, I appreciate that. So, so a writer wants to be considered for a mentoring program. 

Carole: Right, right, right. 

Lorien: Like one of the ones that you've created because of an actual need. We still have that need. 

Carole: Indeed. 

Lorien: How do they make themselves a candidate and then what happens when they're in it? 

Carole: Sure.

Lorien: And then how do they leverage that to get a career after? 

Carole: Yeah. And it's happened through the CBS program, now known as the Paramount program. And for two minutes it was called the Viacom Writers Mentoring Program. Go figure. 

A hundred and twenty-five people have gone through the program. We've launched the careers of more than ninety-five writers of color. We have fourteen showrunners as alumni, and there is nothing that makes me happier and more fulfilled than when somebody that's been through my CBS program comes through the showrunner training, and that's happened seven times. So it's just fabulous. So how do you make yourself an ideal desirable candidate?

The way it works is it starts with the material and at CBS. And I was one of the first people who said we have to have a spec and an original. And even though, you know, The tide turned and agents and managers said, don't write a spec. Nobody cares. There are still showrunners that don't give a shit about your original voice. Yeah. 

Lorien: I like to read a spec. I want to read an original and a spec because I need to know if you can write in someone else's voice and that you love TV. 

Carole: Yes. Yes. And that you have original ideas, you have a voice, but that your job, as you well know, is to capture your voice, the showrunner's voice. You're not there to be doing your voice. So I think you need both, even though the culture says you don't, I think people are coming around about that. So the material goes through a number of readers. 

So the first level is having blazing hot material. And my theory about material and blazing hot material is that in any, and I'm sure you know this, in any group, any pile of scripts, when there used to be piles of scripts and not digital piles of scripts, 5% are so bad that your dentist would say, this sucks. 

5% are so beautiful that is, I like to say your mother would know it was blazing hot. And the rest is somewhere between good to very good. And to get over, you have to move the dial from very good to blazing hot. So if you have a blazing hot material, then the next level is that my colleagues and I read it.

And from there, because we don't always agree with the readers. We choose the top. And we had 2000 applications this year. We choose the top twenty-five people we want to interview. And then it's about how you are in a room. That's super important because as you know, when you're staffing your room, a large part of it is, is this person going to get along?

And then the next thing is that you are put together, you have a meeting with a mentor, because this is a mentoring program. And the mentor will be a team of executives. And if it's a love fest, you're in the program, and congratulations. And if for some reason the chemistry's not there, we say apply again next year because we'll have new mentors.

So that's a process of getting in. I've seen people with fantastic material that I said, oh, please, God, let them be great in the room, and they sucked, and there's no way. 

Lorien: So what does that look like? What, like, what are the things to avoid in that application process? What are some things that you've encountered that you're like, no.

Carole: Okay, people who are incredibly stiff, they're not comfortable with themselves, everybody's going to be nervous and we know that and we take that into account.

Somebody who talks at you, that is one of the notes that I will make a lot. Talks too much. That is not something that a showrunner wants in a room, is somebody who just goes on and on. Again, we know you're nervous, but you need to be able to read the room and take a breath and take a beat and let us ask questions.

You need to know what your personal story is. And I talk about that a lot. Your personal A story, some nuggets, something that'll make us remember you. Somebody. Not everybody can be charming, but charm helps. It really helps. Don't force it though. Whoever you are. 

There's somebody who's in the program this year that I adore and he is not upbeat and funny. He's really serious. But he doesn't take himself too seriously, but he is grounded and down to earth and profound. And that's his jam. You know what I mean? And he's going to do great. He's going to do great. 

Lorien: I think the kids call it the rizz. 

Carole: The rizz? Tell me what that is.

Lorien: Charisma. 

Carole: Oh, rizz is charisma. 

Lorien: Charisma. Rizz. 

Carole: Yes. Okay. I'm stealing it again. Okay. I don't know. 

Lorien: Look at me helping you with all these catchphrases and references.

Carole: I need them. I need them. And I appreciate that. And I live way out in the West Valley, middle-aged woman from the West Valley. Do I hear rizz? No, I do not. So now I have, thank you so much. 

Lorien: I have an 11-year-old, I have a junior high kid, so I get–

Carole: There you go.

Lorien: I get the glimpse. Yeah. 

Carole: Oh good, good. 

Lorien: So I love things to avoid. So what are some things you said you talked about–

Carole: Oh, one more thing. 

Lorien: Go ahead. 

Carole: What people will do, and it's shocking, is they will not have seen any CBS project, programs. It's like, hello? We'll ask you what you're watching. You should have some things that you love, like, The Diplomat, or Succession, or Beef, or anything else.

But then you have to have some CBS programs. Otherwise, what the fuck are you doing there? So there's that. Don't do that. 

Lorien: But don't just only have those and don't flatter the show, the people that you're, oh, I love this project and this project that you're doing. Like do your research, be real, pick a show on CBS that you actually do like.

Do some research, watch a bunch of them, see what you connect with, right? Like, you don't want to just make it up because somebody who made that show will be in the room and will ask you specific questions about it. 

Carole: That's right. And don't kiss ass. It's like what you said, don't, we know when you're saying five, it's good that you know them.

But when you talk about what you love, choose one. As you said, it's, that's a brilliant way to put it and recommendation. 

Lorien: So what are some things, specific things people do? Like, you said you know, don't be stiff in the room. Does that mean like how you're sitting? Does that mean what you wear?

Like, what is something specific that a writer can grab ahold of and be like, I'm going to do that thing? Like, how do I shake off my nerves before I'm going to do this? 

Carole: That is a great question.

Lorien: You know, like, what does this look like? 

Carole: Really good question. I love specificity. I totally do. I love actionable advice. So this is great actionable advice.

If you overdress, this poor guy came in a three piece suit. So right way, he doesn't understand the business and he was sweating through it. It made me feel so sad for him. And of course he didn't get in. 

Lorien: But not just because he was wearing a suit. Right. like, that’s not the only reason.

Carole: No, he was too green. He didn't understand how it worked. Yes, you're fabulous, but you're wearing a three piece suit. So, hey, that's a big no. 

Lorien: One of several red flags that would be appropriate for the, ready for the program. 

Carole: Yes, that's right. Ready. And he also talked way too much. His nerves got in the way. So I encourage people, you know, a thing that really helps with nerves is to be super prepared, is to be uber prepared. Know answers to questions that you think you're going to be asked, and then be prepared. 

And then before you walk in, let it go, and be in the moment. And I'm sure everybody you talk to recommends is, take some improv classes so you can be in the moment and read the room. And so stiff is your posture. Are you sitting up straight? And are you so tense that it's uncomfortable to look at you? It's it's what else is it? It's being so–

Lorien: The unrelenting eye contact? 

Carole: You know, mostly people, that is disturbing for sure. But lack of eye contact is equally as bad. Equally as unhelpful to you as a candidate. 

And it's interesting because, I wasn't great at making eye contact because when I think I look up and then I have to remind myself to come. So I actually practiced on people in the world making eye contact, but not stalker eye contact, but just eye contact.

And if you can improve that if you don't make eye contact, you can improve that. 

Lorien: Yeah. I think this is all good. Again, it's, I think it's, what are you good at? Right? Like I feel best when I'm wearing sneakers because I can't wear high heels anymore and I don't want to. So I wear my favorite pair of sneakers. So I'm comfortable. It's me. 

And I'm not worried if somebody thinks my sneakers are appropriate or not because that's me and that grounds me, right? For me, it's always what is my hair, my sneakers, my feet doing? Then I can feel like tops and tails, everything else I can improv with, right? 

So, and I, all this advice too, is really great for generals, showrunner meetings, meeting with people in the world, connecting, all of it, right is, what are you good at? Lean into that kind of stuff and then be aware of the other stuff that like your nerve, like when you're nervous, what kinds of stuff do you do? Be aware of it. 

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: But all this is so good for generals. 

Carole: It's absolutely good for general, certainly good for showrunner meetings. I love what you said about sneakers. Did you say sneakers? You said sneakers, right? 

Lorien: I'm into the fashion sneaks. I like that. 

Carole: There you go. Do you stand in line on Fairfax Boulevard when they–

Lorien: No.

Carole: Okay.

Lorien: I buy my shoes on the internet like a real person. 

Carole: You should be comfortable and authentic. You know, in the book, I talk about it, it looks like a casual business, the entertainment industry, but it's a business, so.

But writers have leeway to be interesting and not to walk the straight and narrow. So I think all you need to be is sort of put together and I think it's fun if you're somebody who wears jewelry, if you wear something that's sort of a conversation starter. 

I had a client Who was a total nerd who went into a meeting and she had a Star Trek belt. And all they did was talk about the Star Trek belt for about 15 minutes. And she ended up, they were executives and they recommended her to a showrunner. And she got that gig. 

Lorien: Oh, that's awesome. I think that's fun because she probably wears that Star Trek belt. 

Carole: Exactly. 

Lorien: But I think one thing to avoid is a gimmick.

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: That can be, I think that's, those are those stories where it's worked for a few people out there, right? Like, somebody showed up in a suit and a briefcase and pulled out a thing and a whole fiction number. You know, you know, you hear wild stories about the gimmicks and it just, a lot of times it can backfire. So like.

Carole: Totally agree. If it's not authentic–

Lorien: Yeah. 

Carole: Because it's like you're writing. Somebody needs, they need to know who you are. And we all have false selves, right, that we need to put on because it's too scary to just be your total vulnerable self. 

Lorien: I don't know what you're talking about.

Carole: But make sure it's not too far from the surface. Because if you sell yourself as one thing and you get into a writer's room and you're not delivering that, you're not going to stay there long. 

Lorien: Yeah, it's all very fun and easy, isn't it? So fun and so easy. 

Carole: So easy. 

Lorien: Okay, so I am so curious about the personal A story that you were talking about. How, what does that mean? And like, give, I, I want you to help me do my personal A story. 

Carole: Great. 

Lorien: So what are you going to talk to me about? 

Carole: Okay, let me just say what a personal A story is in my opinion. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Carole: It's a chronological narrative, chronological, of your life with you as the protagonist. It highlights your successes and what makes you different and memorable again, not with not being over the top about either of those things.

And the narrative drive is where you started, how you became a writer, what you had to overcome, and then where you are today and where you want to go. That's my definition of the A story. 

Lorien: So if it was in a three act structure, about where would you end? 

Carole: You would end on this is where I'm in this where I am today that's where you end and depending on what the meeting is, you can say, and I'm so excited to be doing x next.

Lorien: Right. Oh, I was just trying to see if I could find a correlation of like, are you at, raising mistakes, after the midpoint. You're not at the bottom of act two, like where 

Carole: I see. Spoken like a true writer, a true writer and a feature writer, probably as well as a TV writer. 

Lorien: That makes sense to me. So it's the narrative of where I, how I got to where I am and–

Carole: What you had to overcome. But look, let me talk about that for a minute. So many people have trauma in their life and there's, and I'm sure you've heard the expression trauma porn. Don't do that. Don't, you don't want to say anything that's so disturbing that the person hearing it is taken out of the narrative and just feeling terrible for you.

Lorien: Save that for your pitch. 

Carole: That's right. Save that for your script and your pitch. That's right. That's exactly right. 

Lorien: So one of the things I do when I'm doing my narrative, my story, is, I mean, I start with, I grew up in a murder town because that's actually true. 

Carole: Which one, is that Detroit? 

Lorien: No. It's up North, Northern California. They're all murder towns. 

Carole: Which one? I know I lived up in Marin, so I know. 

Lorien: Yeah. So, you know, and you know what I'm talking about. 

Carole: Yeah. Yeah, I do. 

Lorien: So the thing I overcame, how I got to Hollywood, you know, I was lucky enough to get to work for Pixar for 10 years. And I got to be a part of working on these brilliant movies and working with brilliant people.

And it was all the things, right? The hardest thing I ever did. The most wonderful thing I ever did. But I got to a point where I realized I wasn't telling my story. I was telling, I was helping other people tell their stories, which is a huge part of my life as a producer and a development person. And I love it, but I really had this yearning to tell my own stories, which is why I moved to Hollywood, which is why I'm writing.

So that's something I overcame. But it's still, it's very real. And it is for me, it and it is, you know, and there's so much more to that under that struggle, that decision to move from Northern California to Southern California and what that all is. But that's how I talk about it, how I became a writer here, and it's something I overcame, but it's still very true, but it's also positive, right?

I also get to talk about my time at Pixar. I, you know, like, for me, that's part of my narrative. 

Carole: And it's great.

Lorien: So I'm not saying you know this terrible thing happened with my family that you know. That's something I save for my scripts or my pitches if it's appropriate. 

Carole: I think that's so smart. That's a great example of what it is. It's a great example and it resonates because there's so many creative people who are people who feel like they're creative and they're in a position of bringing somebody else's vision to life. 

And there is that moment when you say, this is the time. If I don't do this now, I'll never do it. The money's too good. And I just will be stuck. So I love that. It's perfect. Congratulations. 

Lorien: Oh, it was a very long time ago, but thank you. But that, but I've been working on that personal A story for a while. 

Carole: That's what I mean. 

Lorien: How to pick and choose the things that I've done to make it a narrative of, it was inevitable that I got here.

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: That's the vibe of it, right? I know what to leave out and what to include but I always start with, I grew up in a murder town because sometimes the conversation just stops there. 

Carole: Yes. Yes. I mean, it's perfect. And that's the thing that makes you memorable. People will remember, oh, she's a murder town woman.

And then what you overcame and your success because getting a gig at Pixar is no small accomplishment and being there for 10 years is no small accomplishment. So you include that, you highlight that, and your, what you overcame is so, resonates so well and is authentic. And then the only thing I would leave out is, what are you doing today and what do you want to do?

Lorien: Yes, that's not my whole A story and I'm not going to pitch the whole thing. But just in terms of what you were talking about, it's not an opportunity to do trauma porn. And I think that's so important because you want to be vulnerable and real and work on the story. So it's something you have to write.

It is something you have to work on and know and talk about, you know. 

Carole: Oh, absolutely. You should practice this as much as you would practice a pitch, because this is equally important. You have to sell yourself as well as your material. So that means write it out, know it well. Some people put it into bullet points.

If you're a performer, you can just say it the way you would say dialogue. I have a mentee who's great at this because at the CBS program, I forced them to do their personal log line, which is like a 40 minute version. 40 minutes. 

Lorien: Ah, oh my God. I almost dropped dead. 40 minutes.

Carole: 40 minutes. Kill me now. 40 seconds. Yeah. 30 seconds, 40 seconds. And you have to do it for 16 weeks. Every time I introduce you to a guest speaker. And by the end of week 10, people are sounding like they've said it a million times. One guy. Always sounded like it was fresh and original. And I studied him and said, why is that?

And what it was is that he would take a beat within his story. As if, you know, he was thinking about it and there was a part of his story that was funny. And so he would just take a minute and he'd do this soft little chuckle, it worked for him because it's who he was and gave them a chance to laugh with it.

But it was taking the beat that made it sound like he was really thinking about what the next thing was. That really works. 

Lorien: I think that's great. And I, and that's so hard, right? Especially if you're an introvert. 

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: Which a lot of writers are. What advice do you have for introverted people, our introverted writers out there?

Carole: I go back to as painful as it is, take an improv class. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Carole: Practice it. Because again, the thing that will take care of nerves. is if you feel really prepared and practice it sounding natural, not like a robot, not like you've done it 1500 times and then fake it a little bit. Channel somebody you know, who's really comfortable and an extrovert and just sort of channel them as you go in.

The other thing that I recommend is visualizations. Have you talked about that on the show? 

Lorien: I do a lot of workshops with this where you imagine yourself and you guide a visual, like you build the scene in your head of you actively participating and being successful so that you have a very clear, visceral, physical idea of what is going to happen.

And so then you figure out how that feels in your body so that when you go into the meeting, you have that feeling in your body and you hold on to that. So that you can hold on to that thing in your head. Is that what you're talking about? 

Carole: That's exactly what I'm talking about. When I got my job at Amblin, I was, I really wanted the job so much. Ad I was in the office waiting to go in, in the lobby waiting to go in and I went into the bathroom and I visualized seeing and feeling your 100%.

It's not just seeing it. It's viscerally feeling it in your body. And I saw myself leaving that meeting feeling fantastic because I knew I didn't leave anything on the table. I told them what I could do for them. They need it or not. And just like almost a, you know, a fist, whatever that is going, yes!

And that felt great, I mean, it felt so good. And I went into it's just what you teach people. 

Lorien: Yeah. I think the important part of it though, that's really hard for writers. Cause we're, when we're watching scenes in our head, we're an omniscient watcher over. When you're visualizing and you're imagining yourself in it, you need to imagine yourself active in it. Walking out of the room, shaking a hand, telling a story. 

You're not watching it. You're actually sitting in the chair, John Malkovich style, being John Malkovich, watching out for your own eye, your experience of it. And it's so hard to do. And it's the kind of thing you have to push yourself.

Like I'm imagining myself getting the phone call, getting the job offer in the room, you know, like how that feels. And then that's the feeling you're enter the room with. That I love this. I'm looking for someone to love it as much as I do, you know, that kind of, everyone, like, I'm taking a pitch out, and I love this project, I can't wait to sell it and make it, and I know what I look like in the writer's room, and I know what I look like, giving, I'm gonna direct it, and I'm gonna write it, and I'm gonna run it. Like, I am in it.

And I imagine myself in a pitch and someone leans across the table at me and says, we love this so much. We love it more than you love it. We can't make this, we can't wait to make the show with you. That's the feeling I go into the room with or on Zoom so that someone can meet my energy that way. And then I will recognize it when I see it. Yeah. 

Carole: That's brilliant. Anybody who takes your workshop is incredibly lucky because that's valuable information. Super valuable information. 

Lorien: You have it too. You do the same thing. I think it's really powerful. And it's not, it's not like a dream board. You know, those are great, but that's kind of passive outside of you. You're not active in it. It's something you're looking at. So anyway, you gotta walk around in your own dreams, your own wants. 

Carole: Exactly. 

Lorien: I want to talk about obstacles a little bit more. When you talked about the personal A story, you talked about tell the story of your obstacles. What are real obstacles that writers have in today's industry, right?

Where we are right now, post-strike, the streamers, everything going on, you know, outside of I'm writing my face off, I am doing the work. What are some obstacles to be on the lookout for as like a newer writer? And what are ways to overcome it? You know, like Zoom is a new thing. 

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: Timing of meetings has always been an issue, right?

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: Just some practical things that like, oh shit, I didn't know that was a thing. 

Carole: Right. 

Lorien: Like, if you get an offer for a deal, you should have a lawyer. You should never make a deal by yourself.

Carole: My God, do not. 

Lorien: Basically like what are some things that like, a new writer, I'm gonna be to Hollywood and be a screenwriter. What are some things that, like you've realized over the years that you didn't know that you should have known or that you've seen writers sort of like it's smacked in the head with.

Carole: A couple of things. One is, and it's something over which you do have control, is meeting more people. And during the strike, so many people in the guild, not in the guild, we're meeting people and the ones that were just there to network, it fell flat. 

But the ones that really were interested and wanted to know about the person because, and I'm just pulling this number, but it’s probably true, about 70 percent of your jobs will come from people who know you because they recommend you or they hire you. So meeting more people is one of it. 

Something that pisses me off so much is that people that are trying to get into the business, quote “producers” are taking such advantage of new writers, and they're working them to death and paying them zero. Don't do that. If they're trying to piggyback on you to get in, don't be in business with them.

Anybody you're in business with, even if they're your best friend, get paper, have a contract, have a deal. Do not go into something just when they reassure you, yeah, you're going to stay with the project. Yeah, you'll be the showrunner. Do not believe that. Or believe it once you have it. on paper and in the deal.

Lorien: This is something important we need to talk about a little bit more on the show. So we have a Facebook group that goes along with the podcast. I think there's like 6000 people in it. And people ask questions, it's a really great community that we've worked really hard to keep very positive, kindness, community, you know, generosity, curiosity.

Someone posted, I was approached by a producer who said that they wanted me to pay them some, you know,$ 10 000 to take their project out and try to sell it. You know, everybody immediately went like, run away, don't do it. That's crap. There are brilliant producers out there, brilliant, trustworthy partners out there. And there are a lot of predators out there as well. 

And things to look at are, you should never pay someone to work with them on that level. We commission our managers, our agents, and our lawyers. That's who we are. We're paying them because we've made money because they've helped us make money. 

Carole: Right. Do not pay a manager who says, I'll read your material, but you have to pay me. And managers will, you know, unscrupulous managers, and I'm making air quotes, “managers” will do that. That's just shocking and disgusting that somebody, but see, also working for free endlessly, I think is sort of the same thing.

Lorien: It is but it is, yes, it is. I agree. Free work is, it is. I mean, it's what we do, right? But I'm not going to also pay someone. 

Carole: Of course. I'm not going to pay somebody. I've just never heard of that. I'm stunned.

Lorien: It's a, maybe it's a new thing, but like they're going after a lot of emerging writers. I think it came up a lot during the strike as well. You know.

Carole: You pay me $10 000 and then I take your work out?

Lorien: I take it out to get it financed or sell it. 

Carole: Unbelievable. Yeah. See, you're so much more positive. I just, I love your energy. I am so, I'm so jaded. I really, no, I do believe in good. I do believe in good. 

Lorien: I am fiercely upset about it. I'm offended. I think it's disgusting.

Carole: It is. Yeah. 

Lorien: And it's predatory. And it's, it's horrible. I'm really mad about it. But, you know, I want to be clear like don't do it 

Carole: Yeah, don't do it. 

Lorien: Don't do it.

Carole: That is clear. Do not do that. 

Lorien: Do not do it.

Carole: In fact, put it on social media who this person is. Give a name. 

Lorien: Yeah. Yeah, so things like that will come up. So like be very careful. Ask for advice. I mean, you have to be careful who you ask for advice from too, right? That's an obstacle, right? Because–

Carole: I've heard people say to new writers, you know what? You suck, get out of the business. You know, people saying it's too hard. It's just too, you know, you'll never make it. Right now the whole business is contracting. You'll never make it. Go back to Iowa and work in retail. 

You know, people that are going to be so discouraging, that is an obstacle. It doesn't mean that it's not tough right now because it really is tough right now, but here's the truth. People break through every day. So why shouldn't it be you.

Lorien: Yep. Yep. I mean, when I was thinking about directing. I was like, well, I don't know how to direct. I don't know any of these things. And I thought, well, I've seen lots of people direct with varying results. I could probably do it just like that with varying results, like.

Carole: Right. And you could take a course. Do you know what I mean? You don't have to, and you could read books. You don't have to step on set saying, I've watched it before. I've watched somebody on set before. You would have some of the tools.

Lorien: Right. So yes, knowing craft. Absolutely. And getting experience. So I, but I think that's great. Stay in it. People aren't always right when they tell you who you are. Okay. People are never right when they tell you who you are. You know who you are, right? 

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: So, and yes, it is hard and you're going to, everyone's, we talk about it all the time in the show. It's hard. It's really hard, but stay in it.

But there are people who tell you it's hard in order to discourage you, and I don't know why. I don't know why people do that. It seems counterproductive to getting great stories and great people in the industry, but.

Carole: They're bitter. They're bitter. They've been burned. They're bitter and they're not nice. I mean, you know, for all the assholes that are in this business, there's so many lovely, generous, kind people, but you do have to be aware of the ones who are not. But don't expect everybody's going to be because most people are not, is been my experience. 

Lorien: Yes, absolutely. And then you just have to meet all the people and see who you connect with. But I really like what you said about the networking like, hi, I'm so and so, let's make a movie together. What is your feeling on writer business cards? 

Carole: I am against it because, and here's why. When I've spoken at events, people come up and give me their card. A, and what happens is I take it and I smile. When I get home, I don't know who you are and I throw it away. 

People don't use cards anymore. Do you know what I mean? They do, they take out their phone. If somebody wants to connect with you, they'll say, give me your details. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Carole: Give me your contact information.

Lorien: When people give me a card, it's expecting me to do work. You're asking me to contact you. 

Carole: Right. 

Lorien: I don't want that. If I give you my information, it means I'm inviting you to contact me. And when you contact me, I need you to be clear about what you're asking for. 

Carole: Yes. And concise, not just clear. Reference how you know them. Be clear, don't, and short. I always say in an email, it shouldn't be more than a short paragraph. 

Lorien: It shouldn't be more than I can see on my cell phone in the preview window, honestly. 

Carole: Oh, there you go. I love that. 

Lorien: I need a tight, clear action line right up front. 

Carole: Yes, that's perfect. Totally agree with you. 

Lorien: Two sentences, two lines that you can see on my email because I'm just blowing through that thing all the time. Super overwhelmed. 

Carole: Sure. 

Lorien: Yeah, business cards. I mean, they're cute. But I never know what to do with them. 

Carole: Especially if you do have a business card, don't have kittens, and don't have an old fashioned typewriter on it. 

Lorien: I do love an old fashioned typewriter picture, though. 

Carole: Everybody uses it. Everybody uses it. 

Lorien: No, I hear you. So, okay, one last question before we get into the last three questions that we ask every guest, which is: what is some advice you have for our audience? Considering that it's emerging writers, professional writers, people who aren't writers but are in other parts of the industry, what are some, what's some advice and do you have any practical tips?

Carole: I love that question. Now I'm going to have to think about it, so you're going to have to cut out all the airspace while I'm thinking about it. I think, and let me speak to emerging writers, that it's five things that I've seen emerging writers need to be successful.

And one is talent and sort of blazing hot material. But the truth is that isn't always the most important thing. 

The second thing is be somebody that is a pleasure to be around, somebody who has an upbeat personality. Don't be somebody you're not, don't be over the top, but be some. And if you're in comedy, be funny without being da-da! You know what I mean? Just be somebody that is pleasant to be around. Because in television, if you're going into a room, people want to be around you for twelve hours a day. It's have an amazing work ethic. It's continually meeting people and building your community. 

But what I say is the way to get over that smarmy feeling of meeting somebody like, Hi, Carole Kirshner here, what can you do for me? Is meet them and see what you could do for them. Spend some of your energy, what can you do for them? Make it 20 percent about you, 80 percent about them. And then it's luck and timing. But the more people, you know, the luckier you're going to get. The more your material is ready, the luckier you're going to get. And when the timing happens, you have an opportunity for it. 

So it is meeting people and be generous and gracious. It is working on your craft. I mean, I think that those two things are things over which you have control. It is helping people. If you help people, only good things will happen. People feel like, It's such a competitive business, I have to screw somebody.

No, just have open arms. How can I help you? The other thing is to be yourself. I mean, that sounds so cliched, but it's know yourself. And that's why so many writers are in therapy. Know yourself. Don't hate yourself. Like what you were talking about happened for you, that awareness this week, you know, lead with the positive, even if that's not who you totally are by nature. Fake that a little bit. You have to do self care. You have to do self care. 

And what I also say is, creativity in, creativity out. You can't just sit and watch television and then write. You need to have a life, and go to the zoo, go to museums, travel, go to the library, listen to people when you're at a restaurant, listen to what they're saying, watch them, say what's going in that relationship, and make up stories, read things that aren't how to write a screenplay.

You know, feed yourself creativity. That's why art museums, even though it's not our, it's not our mode, you'd be surprised, color, shapes, and scenes. So creativity in creativity out makes, and I think if you can't, unless somebody's paying you and you're on deadline, I think you should take at least one day a week completely off from writing. Step away from your computer. 

If somebody's paying you and you're on deadline, this goes out the window. But if not, I don't go walking, go hiking, get a massage, depending on what your resources are. Take your dog to the dog park. Just sit. You can watch Millionaire Matchmaker for a little bit. Just relax and turn off.

It's not that you don't get great ideas in the shower because you do or on walks, but don't do it for that reason. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Carole: And don't force that. 

Lorien: I agree. I love this. I'm sorry, I actually want to talk about this for just a second before we wrap up. The idea of self care, right? As a mom, I'm told that self care is being able to take a shower by myself or go to the grocery store without my kid or, oh, I get to go to Target by myself, right?

Carole: Yes. 

Lorien: Somehow basic functions become prizes. And what you're talking about, go do something else, take the time off, I've been really trying to think of what that is. 

And I have decided this morning, I decided this: I’m gonna start horseback riding again, because it is something that I loved to do. And it's physical. And when I'm doing it, it's the only thing I'm thinking about. It is truly time off from my family responsibilities, my writing, my work, everything goes away because I'm so focused on this one thing, and then, and it, I feel right about it. 

It's like, it's, the soulmate of my activities is horseback riding, and I have not been doing it for a very long time, and I want to get back to it. And I'm going to be so bad at it when I get back on the horse. I'm going to be so sore. But that is self care for me. Is finding an activity. It happens too when I take a when I ride my peloton, when I do certain things where my brain shifts off. So, for me it's not taking a walk. Cause, all I do is churn on sores.

But if it’s actually doing something physical that requires my absolute mental focus along with my body, that for me is self care. So for some people it's massage, for other people it's hiking, it's different things, but I have to find a way to turn my brain off so hard that I get a vacation from myself.

Carole: I think that's brilliant. You said 275 brilliant things in this hour. I'm very impressed. 

Lorien: You said even more. You did even more. So, I mean, mutual love association. 

Carole: Yeah, there you go. As I said, my daughter, who's an aspiring comedy writer, and I have to say, I've never helped her get one job because that's the kind of mama I am. So no baby, nepo baby there. 

She surfs. She rock climbs. I mean, I think everybody surfs now and everybody rock climbs, but you got to pay attention because serious consequences. And I love what you said. It takes your full focus. And I think that's super important. 

Lorien: Yeah. For me, that's self care. It's getting a break for myself. I used to have it in yoga class, but I can't get there anymore with it because I'm too body aware for, something is happening, but that's self care. So I think everyone has to figure out what self care means to them that is not staying hydrated, getting enough sleep. That is basic stuff. That is–

Carole: That’s human 101.

Lorien: Which is still hard for a lot of people. It's still hard for me, but I'm also now going to do self care even though I haven't achieved being able to sleep all night long. Okay. So, I love all those tips and those advice and everything. And I think, so we have three questions we ask every guest at the end of the show. The first one is, what brings you the most joy when it comes to your work?

Carole: Well, I am, I do not see myself as a writer. My joy, because of the work I do, I mean, I'm so lucky. I spent 20 years as a development executive in television, and I hated the politics of it. 

All I do now is help people. So when, I am able to do something that moves someone's career ahead, that makes me feel so great. That is probably my biggest joy. That's my biggest joy. 

Lorien: When you said that you had a writer in the mentoring program that got through your whorunning program, like your whole voice and your face, like everything lit up. Like I could see like, oh my gosh, that's like a big moment of satisfaction for you.

Carole: It is. It is. 

Lorien: Oh, I've started using the word satisfaction instead of achievement or success. 

Carole: Love it. Love it.

Lorien: I got that from someone else, by the way. But that to me, like, I'm satisfied by that. Like I'm full. Anyway. 

Carole: No, that's good because it takes the good and bad out of it. It just, and again, it speaks to what feeds you.

Lorien: Yes.

Carole: Because that satisfies you. 

Lorien: Yes, because success is a tricky concept in American culture and everything. Anyway. Okay. So the second question is what pisses you off about your work?

Carole: I don't want to say this because the universe will kick my ass, but sometimes It's just too much. I run a lot of, I run programs, I speak, I coach, I. So I love every single thing, but when it all comes at the same time, it, and you know, it doesn't piss me off. Piss, here's what pisses me off. Mean, people who are just mean that, you know, and mean to the people I love, mean to the people I care about, mean to the people I'm helping. People who are arrogant jerks. People who are mean for no reason or mean spirited. That pisses me off. 

Lorien: Cruelty sucks. 

Carole: Cruelty sucks. And abuse sucks. And there's another word there I was searching for. Blatant disregard of someone's humanness sucks. 

Lorien: Yes. So what you love is when someone's humanness is celebrated. 

Carole: Yes. Thank you for saying that. You're a writer. That's why you said that. 

Lorien: You know, just me trying to change my point of view all the time because I am a cynic at heart and I work so hard to be a realist. That's like, I can't do optimist, but I can bump up to realist. 

Carole: Realist is a step forward. As I like to say, I imagine the worst. My family, they're both optimist, my husband and daughter. It's like, don't you see the train is coming right at us. 

You know what I mean? So I have to work so hard just like you to go, well maybe something good will, maybe that'll turn out well. That's sometimes the best. 

Lorien: Maybe they'll knock me over into a pile of money. They're hitting me. Maybe that's what I can imagine.

Carole: They'll knock me over into a pile of money. I love it. 

Lorien: I'm into it. I'll take a hit for a pile of money. You know, just a little bit. All right. So Jeff has the third question for you. 

Jeff: Carole, the last question we ask is, and this will be interesting because you started your career as a standup, but if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self and I'll let you pick when that is, like which version of Carole that would be, but what advice would you give that Carole during that general meeting with yourself?

Carole: That is a great question. I love it. And you know, the answer came quickly to me and it was, just as I was starting as, not as a comic, but as a junior. I started as an assistant to two writer-producers. It would be: keep the focus on the work because so much of it was my insecurity. And does this person like me? And did I piss off that person? And how do I get that person to want to help me? 

And you know, I had a hundred years of therapy, but if you, I would just say, just focus on the work. Just focus on the work and being of service. Just focus on the work and helping people. That's what I would say to my younger self.

Lorien: And that's where you are now. So good job. 

Carole: Yeah.

Lorien: All right, Carole, before we let you go, is there anything else you want to share with our audience? 

Carole: Sure. Shameless self promotion. I have an online course called How to Pitch a TV Show That Sells and it's a five week course. And each week I have a top level show runner come and demonstrate a pitch, an actual pitch that they've either sold or that they've taken out or that's been on the air.

And it's coming out at the end of the year. If somebody goes to my website, which is carolekirschner.com and signs up for the newsletter, you'll find out all about it. 

So, and I was just going to say to people that took my class last year, they use the system that I teach, which I garnered from years and years. And I've heard literally 5, 000 pitches. They sold their projects in the room. 

Lorien: Wow. That's awesome. 

Jeff: That's great. And we'll make it easy for our listeners and just link it right down in the description below, Carole. So. 

Carole: Thank you. I really appreciate that. 

Lorien: Well, Carole, it was great to be able to talk to you and have you on the show. Thank you so much. 

Carole: No, thank you. This was so much fun and such smart questions and stimulating and satisfying conversation. 

Lorien: Thank you so much. 

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