194 | Romantic Comedy Writing Masterclass w/ Billy Mernit

The romantic comedy is one of the most enduring genres in American Cinema and for good reason: it's all about love, joy, and transformation, aka, the heart of good storytelling. This is Billy Mernit's entire ethos, the foundation that has made Billy's rom-com philosophy one of the most celebrated in our business. Billy is a story consultant, novelist, and Romcom guru, who's booking WRITING THE ROMANTIC COMEDY is a fundamental screenwriting craft text for emerging writers and pros.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. 

Meg: Today we are thrilled to be welcoming writer and story consultant Billy Mernit. 

Lorien: Billy is a story analyst for Universal Pictures and he is also the author of two books, Writing the Romantic Comedy, with Harper Collins, now reissued and an expanded 20th anniversary edition and Imagine Me and You, Shea Earhart Random House. And he's also the recipient of the UCLA Extension Distinguished Instruction Award and the Outstanding Instructor Award in screenwriting.

Meg: Billy is something of a romantic comedy guru. His book is an essential if you want to understand the art of the rom com. On top of that, Billy is also a songwriter whose songs have been recorded by Carly Simon, Judy Collins, and Morrissey. And today we'll be talking all things romantic comedy in screenwriting.

So hello, Billy. 

Billy: Hi, great to be here. 

Meg: We are thrilled to have you. I know that Lauren and I are huge rom com fans and inspirational, want to be writing them. So we can't wait to dive in. But first we're going to do our first section, which we like to call Adventures in Screenwriting or kind of what– how was your week?

So we'll let Lorien start. Lorien, how was your week? 

Lorien: So far, I feel like I'm always still in my week when you ask, how was my week? So. Where I am right now is I got notes on a project a couple of days ago, so I'm working on that. And of course, you know, the notes feel way bigger than I think they are, so I put them off for a day.

And then I get into them, and I realize they're not as easy as I thought they were, and then I find a big story knot somewhere, and then I step away from it. And so now I'm back in trying to untie that knot. And then it really isn't about are the notes bigger than I thought or easier than I thought. It really is how can I solve this the best way, which is, which happens to me every single time I get notes, right? 

Because I want to judge the note. It's too big. It's not what I'm doing. You know, I want to put all these like, assign all these sort of emotional things that the notes are doing to me instead of just, you know, figuring out how to emotionally regulate through it to deal with the notes. So I'm doing that. 

I'm also starting a new pilot because we always have to have new specs. And I, in starting it, of course, I did the sort of what is words, what is writing thing. And I realized, wait, I give a lot of great advice to writers. So I have come up with the top 10 things of advice I give to people. And I'm going to try to stick to those, practice what I preach, and I'm going to–

Meg: Okay, give us one. Give us one example. 

Lorien: Set a schedule, which is probably the hardest one. And pick a pony, which is advice you've given, Meg, like, what is it? Like, what genre is it? What does the main character want? What, like, pick things instead of doing what I usually do.

Meg: Pick a version.

Lorien: Pick a version, which is a lot of, like, exploratory character dialogue writing. Which is great, I'm writing, but I'm not actually writing to a place. So I have to, like, set a goal, set a schedule. Those are my two. 

Meg: All right, Lorien. We want, I want you, when you're ready and you have your ten, to post it on the Facebook page. 

Lorien: Okay. 

Meg: So we can all hold you accountable. So we can all just share your tips. 

Lorien: I'm already not doing great at it, but I'm a work in progress, right? And the other thing that I did this week that might not seem like it has anything to do with writing, but it does, is that I got a haircut.

Now, I have not gotten a haircut for a really long time. And I got almost a foot cut off my hair. It was getting longer and longer. And I was like, feeling, it just felt like not me and out of control and this heavy thing and I realized, wait, no one else is going to make my haircut for me. So I had to make it for myself and go and get my haircut.

And the sense of accomplishment I felt having gotten my haircut reminded me that I'm the one in charge of my life. It's such a simple thing sometimes when I get into such an icky place of not knowing what I'm doing, of being too afraid to pick a path, just sort of that stuck place we can get to. And something as simple as like, I got my hair cut, which seems like an executive function problem, which it is.

But it reminded me that like, oh, if I want something that I want, I have to go do it. Right, plot. So it was, and also I'm very happy I got a foot cut off my head because I use much less shampoo now. 

Meg: It’s probably a lot lighter too. 

Lorien: Yes, I feel a lot lighter. But so that was my week, which is a lot of reminding myself that I'm the boss of me and my writing and my process and my life, which I don't always remember, honestly.

So, Billy, how was your week? 

Billy: My week was good. Thanks. I've been working on a project, sort of a labor of love thing that actually originated from a musical that I wrote over 30 years ago. And over the years I keep coming back to it periodically. And it's had incarnations as a screenplay, as a novel, as even a pilot. And I'm now doing it as a play. It features musicians and they play live.

Anyway, I sent it out to some trusted readers. And of course the thing that always happens, I'd love to know if this is a universal phenomenon, it's always the moment after you send something that you invariably go, wait a second, this is that thing that's wrong. Or, you know, you find, I mean, the smallest version is you find a typo, but the biggest is you actually have a thought where you go, Oh my God, that's the thing I need to fix that I've been trying to fix forever. 

So that, okay. Good to know. I'm not alone in this. So that happened to me where a problem that I had been having in the first act since the inception of the project suddenly, when I was just sort of like looking over the pages after I had sent it out to three people, I kind of had the great light bulb epiphany and went, Oh my God, I know how to fix this.

I just quickly want to say two things about it. A, not uncommon, right, that phenomenon. But B, the fix was interesting to me because I thought what was wrong with this part of the script was, had to do with plot and had to do with length, meaning section seemed too long, wasn't really sure it was furthering the plot.

And I just kept hammering at it 12 ways to Sunday only to learn that it was about character. And that it was about a character reveal. And once I understood what the character reveal could be in that beat, A, it actually got longer than shorter, but all to the good. And B, it didn't matter about plot per se, because it just informed everything around it.

And so, you know, the moral of that story is I kind of feel like we're always learning every single project we work on, no matter how old you get, how long you've been doing it, you just keep learning, learning, and learning. 

Meg: Oh, it's exhausting and exhilarating all at the same time. 

Lorien: Yes, it's the best thing and the worst thing, right?

Meg: It's the best thing and the worst thing.

Billy: Yeah. 

Lorien: I was talking to someone last night about this. I was, she was a psychologist and we were talking about fraud syndrome and when do we actually get it, what we're doing. And she's like, Well, the one time in my life when I didn't have it was when I was a barista. I was pretty good at making those drinks. Like, and I was like, Yeah, that's right, when I was a restaurant, a waitress at a pizza restaurant, I felt really good, right. But I realized I was never really taking anything home with me. Like I wasn't worried about how to deliver the pizzas any more than I was at work.

Meg: Because it's only skill. That's only skill. You can learn that skill, get really good at it, and you're done. Versus art is never going to be that. It is never going to just be skill. It is always going to be some fire, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah. 

My week is a little bit along the lines in that, but the opposite side of where Billy is. Which is, I'm down in the writing of it. My partner gave me his, I gave my version to my partner, he's given it back to me, and suddenly this project which has been a bit of a bane of my personal existence because it has been just noted to the point of being a reboot now at this point. So I don't, I have started the project without a lot of energy or confidence in it and feeling a little lost and now I'm at the stage where I like it.

And it's terrifying. 

Lorien: I was gonna say, how scared are you right now? 

Meg: I mean, it's like, we, don't we just all want to write and enjoy the writing? Which I am. I'm really enjoying it. Because I feel like, excuse me, I feel like it's working. And I like the characters. And I feel like the thematic is very clear. And it's propulsive. And there's a clear want. And all the stuff we talk about, it's actually firing. The engine is firing. 

And it's terrifying. Because. I literally feel like there's a crocodile in the river underneath because I still have to turn it in and get notes. And I'm just waiting for the boot. Some part of my survival brain is like, Don't get too invested. Don't enjoy this too much. You think it's good, they might hate it. Like literally, some survival part of my brain is whispering the notes to me already. Like, Well that's pretty stupid, I mean, that's not scary at all. They're gonna, they've seen that scare 500 times, why is that scary?

Like it's just whispering, and so I'm having to really force myself to ignore that and just allow myself to enjoy it, because, man, gosh, people, if we don't enjoy it, when you can, what are we doing this for? Like, otherwise it's just a masochistic experience. Like I need to enjoy this. So I'm really trying to let the worry part, anxiety part of me to the side and enjoy it.

I mean, listen, anxiety has its purpose. It does get me to focus. It gets me to try harder. It gets me to actually write out of panic. But right now I don't need her around. I need her to go take a seat and let me enjoy the, what, with the fruit of all of this labor that is now here. So, I mean, you know, this is part one. Part two will be, I'll let you know what happens when I get the notes. See, there it is, there it just came back in. See? 

Lorien: Well, all you have to do is send it to three trusted readers, and then you will know how you really feel about it. 

Meg: Oh, I know. What did Ron write, what did Ed Solomon say? He said, It's however long the script is, how many minutes you have after you send it out before you start to worry about it. 

So, okay, let's get to our interview because I'm so excited about this. Let's just first talk about why romantic comedies? What about them made you want to write a book? Like why is this your sweet spot? 

Billy: It's actually my parents fault. I grew up with a very loving couple of parents. And when I was a kid In New York, where I grew up, they had a thing called million dollar movie, which they would show a movie and they would show it five times a week or even more.

And so I saw a lot of old black and white stuff when I was pretty young. And one of, one of the things I saw was you know, things like The Awful Truth. All these Cary Grant Katharine Hepburn movies and screwballs and things at a very impressionable age. So between my folks and between these movies that they found hilarious, I kind of, I grew up with this completely delusional view of relationships.

You know, thinking that this was actually the way it could be in the real world. And I sort of carried that forward. So I've always been a romantic and I, okay, confession, I was actually a romance novelist under a female name. I wrote and published 20 Harlequin, Berkeley books when I was trying to make a living in the eighties.

Lorien: I love this story. So much. I love this. Thank you. 

Meg: When are you writing this movie? When is this a movie? 

Billy: You know, I actually did write a spec about that. We'll stick a pin in that for the moment. Anyway, so that was good practice in a way for romantic comedy screenwriting, right? And In a way, I was recycling unconsciously a lot of the movies I had seen along with, you know, my own original ideas.

And that got me onto it. When I started to teach at UCLA Extension, and this sounds like such a cliche, but it really did happen. My students, a couple of my students at the end of the course came up to me and said, You know, there's no book. Why don't you write it? 

Because at that time, this was like 1998, something like that. There was no writing the romantic comedy book out there. And so I kind of saw that gap and I went, all right, yeah, I think I've in teaching the course, I kind of codified and understood more what the genre was about, and so I took a roll at it and here we are. 

Lorien: Well, I'm glad you did. Cause this book has helped me in so, so many ways and not just in romantic comedies, like structurally, in terms of character, it's really helped me. So, like, this and The Art of Dramatic Writing, like, have, you know, are two of my favorite books. 

Billy: Since you say that, though, let me just jump in and say it's one of the most character driven genres there is. And it's often maligned and misunderstood, where I kind of feel like this thing is the big truth standing in everybody's face, is if you can write character, if you love character and you want to develop character work, it's a fabulous genre to do that in.

And I think the best rom coms are the ones where the character work is really deep and strong. 

Lorien: Okay, let's talk about that then. What are some of the best rom coms in your opinion? And what makes them the best? Or great? 

Billy: Oh, gosh. Well, I can just cite a few favorites. One that always springs to mind is Moonstruck, because if you talk about character, I mean, my God, if you've ever seen that film, you will never forget those people and their family. And, you know, just that entire world of characters is so marvelous. 

But that's also, you know, the sort of gold standard for the contemporary. The one that sort of created the paradigms for contemporary rom coms is always When Harry Met Sally. And again, Very clear character setups in terms of who they are. Everybody always, the movie is supposedly about can a man and woman be friends? It's also about can this specific person and this specific person with these dueling ideologies, can they resolve? 

And that, in all the good ones is pretty much what you'll find. Meaning these characters have specific worldviews, specific stances, and the movie is actually testing, is there something between them? Is there one plus one that equals some kind of a thematic takeaway that we can get with? And it comes from character. 

I always say to people, if you're writing a romantic comedy, my first bit of advice is don't think you're writing a romantic comedy. In other words, don't look at it as a collection of all the tropes and all the things that we always think of as being rom com.

Think of, I'm writing about two unique, wonderful people that I, as a writer, am fascinated by. And putting them together and seeing what happens with them. 

Meg: Do you think there is always, and always is a big word, predominantly opposing, dueling views, like in Harry Met Sally you, how you so beautifully describe them. They actually have worldviews that are kind of very different. 

And so that creates narrative tension, right? Because we love them together, but can they be together? Do you think that's essential or just a kind of romantic comedy? 

Billy: It's not essential but it's pretty predominant. I mean, it's kind of hard. I would say of other genres, like, do you want a thriller where there's not really a villain?

You know, it comes with the turf, and I just feel like your conflict will be stronger if there's at least some, it doesn't have to be 180, you know, diametrically opposed, but yeah, it helps to have two people that are different enough. 

Meg: And do you find And I'm selfishly asking this for a project I'm working on, which is not a romantic comedy, but it's a love story of sorts.

Do you find that those views shift so that at the end they find a way to change and therefore can be together? Or is it that they stay who they are, but they find out how to be together even though they have different views? Does that make sense? What I'm asking? Do the views need to change or can it just be.

Because really, if you think about it, they haven't, in Harry Met Sally, they're not different people. They've grown up, they've matured, and they've found a way to allow the other in. But I don't know that their worldview has changed. The way you might do it in a single protagonist's normal drama, you would go through a transformation.

Billy: Right. Well, I would argue though that Harry's worldview does shift by the end of the film. I mean, that's the whole thing of like, the very things that he, that drove him crazy about her in the famous speech he makes at the end, are now the reasons he loves her. Right. There is this sort of, there is at least a shift in terms of his perception and his acceptance of stuff.

But I would say in terms of your question, either, or like, those are both valid ways to go. 

Meg: Cause I love transformative characters. So I want them to stay who they are and yet, evolve themselves so that evolves the relationship, and you can see that kind of shift 

Billy: And the general trend, I mean, in most romantic comedies, the work is you have as again, in most character driven stories, period.

There is one character who does more of the shifting, right? That's kind of the way it usually goes, you also can have situations where both people are affected by what happens and they each, you know, kind of, there's some kind of a shift going on, but generally speaking, and it's usually the protagonist is the one who, you know, has the issue.

Meg: Well, that kind of, I'm sorry, Lorien, I'm going to jump in because that, that connects to something that we had. We asked our Facebook group what questions they had for you because everybody was so excited you were coming on. 

And there was a really perceptive question about rom coms as dual protagonists or single protagonist? Because I know when I was coming up in the business, there was a very strong feeling that rom coms are dual protagonists. But I don't know that's always true. So, what's your sense of that? 

Billy: No, not always true at all. I mean, you could name so many rom coms where you are basically in the one character's point of view.

Meg: Can you name one just so, for our listeners to kind of think about it? 

Billy: Well, all of the male rom coms of the earlier era, like Tootsie, you know, that's a male point of view something like–

Meg: Judd Apatow, a lot of the Judd Apatow movies seem to have a single– 

Billy: Yeah, and those are mostly male. 

Meg: So now can we just, so for our audience, can we name some dual protagonist rom coms just so they can see the difference?

Billy: Sure. Well, Harry and Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, famously, people always cite it. There's a kind of an ongoing online debate about whose movie it is, you know? So yeah. And more recently, I hope to talk a little bit more about Palm Springs on this podcast. And that's one where you start with one, but you kind of bifurcate it. And you're in two point of views before long. 

Meg: I really like that movie. 

Jeff: I wonder if like, something like Mamma Mia, I know that's a weird reference, but because there are three suitors, it's almost like you have a protagonist in that case. It's not really a dual, I don't even know if that would be considered a rom com because there are multiple suitors, but–

Billy: It is, it is.

Meg: Yeah, let's ask that question. What is a rom com versus a romantic drama, shall we say?

Lorien: Or a movie with romance in it? 

Billy: Yeah. Is the first one drama? That's easy. I mean, because comedy is comedy. If you have a happy ending, if you're laughing, you're in rom com. This is one of my pet, this is like, this has driven me crazy for my lifetime of working in film.

So many movies are not perceived as rom coms, that are. A big hit like Silver Linings Playbook, it wasn't packaged as a romantic comedy, it was not sold as a romantic comedy. Half the people who saw it came out of it not even thinking, I just saw a romantic comedy. It's totally that. Right? 

And this is true in so many, I mentioned Groundhog Day. Groundhog Day is a romantic comedy. I'll tell you why. What distinguishes a romantic comedy specifically is that the central conflict in that movie is embodied within that central relationship. Meaning if you can remove that relationship from the movie and still have a functioning story, you're not in a romantic comedy.

If it's a romantic comedy, that means that the ultimate question that the movie is asking is, will these two people become a couple? Now that doesn't mean they have to get married. Doesn't mean they have to end up together forever. I mean, there's many variations on that, but that's the central question that a romantic comedy asks.

So if you can take like, this is going to sound like heresy, but when I look at a movie like Bridesmaids, which I actually worked on for many years at Universal. It's kind of not really a romantic comedy. I mean, it's the stereotypical term chick flick, you know, and it's got all the rom com tropes are in it, but you could take out that relationship between Kristen Wiig and the policeman and that movie would still function.

Because the central story there is: Will these two best friends end up together:?

Meg: Isn't it just best friend romantic comedy?

Lorien: That's what I was going to say. Like it's about Kristen Wiig and Maya Rudolph, right? Will these two people who have now different points of view about the world, right? And then they have to, and Kristen Wiig has to get her shit together, right?

Billy: So it's a, it's a bromance, or a fromance, if you want to call it that. But it's not traditionally rom com in the sense that, you know, the romantic story is what it's about. 

Lorien: Okay, so take a movie like Past Lives, which I found to be very romantic, and a very satisfying ending. And the question is, will these two people end up together?

Spoiler alert, just in case you haven't seen it yet. The answer is no. The two main characters don't end up together. I mean, they do, not romantically, and not as a couple. But, she has a happy ending. Is that a rom com? 

Meg: Well, it's not a comedy though. 

Lorien: It's not a comedy. 

Billy: Yeah, well, which doesn't mean, I mean, dramas can have happy endings too. But it's like, are you laughing? Are there actual LOLs? I mean, that would be the way to, it's kind of that simple. 

Lorien: And it's so funny you just said that. And then I just asked that question as if like, what somehow my brain is still trying to figure out like how all the pieces fit together, which is my experience as a writer too. Like, wait a minute. I know that to be true, but click. So I’m just acknowledging that.

Meg: I would think though that your book, even if you're not writing, like I'm writing a romance horror. And so it's not romantic comedy, but I think a lot of things in your book still apply because it is about romance. 

Billy: Oh yeah.

Meg: It is about character. It is about, so I don't want our listeners to think, oh, it's not, I don't write, I don't want romantic comedy. I think the romance of Past Lives, still a lot of things apply. 

Billy: Oh sure. 

Meg: In terms of what you're teaching. 

Billy: Yeah. And I mean, I'm glad that people do use the book for other kinds of movies because alongside the hybrids, you know, you've got all those like rom com sports movie, you know, rom com thriller, rom com crime, et cetera, et cetera.

But in addition to that, parts of my book that I think come from just like years as an analyst and a consultant and just looking at thousands and thousands of scripts and movies is there are basic structures. And we all know, you know, from Sid Field to Save the Cat and whatever, there's all this stuff that drives screenwriters crazy.

The romantic comedy paradigm, so to speak, of what I say is seven or eight beats, is simply how the romantic comedy deals with the standard beats of any good screenplay structure. So in that regard, you know, I think it cuts across all genres. 

Lorien: And how are those, so can we talk about, right, so structure and everybody has feelings about structure, right, and chafes against it and leans into it and has relationships with it for their whole career.

Meg: Or loves it like me.

Lorien: Or loves it like we do. Can we talk about tropes, right? Like, so there are certain things in the structure of a rom com that you express. Like, oh, here's the cute meet, right? Like, how can we make this surprising and unexpected and charming and speak to the whole theme of the movie, right?

But then that's also a trope too, right? So, how do we, okay, we got this note once. Lean into the genre, which meant lean into the tropes, but subvert them. 

Meg: Yes, we did get that, we did get that note. 

Lorien: On a rom com that we were writing. 

Billy: Right. 

Lorien: So, like, how do you lean into the genre, but subvert it? 

Meg: And we still need to know the answer to that.

Lorien: Yes. 

Billy: I think that's what anybody writing a rom com wants to know, right? I mean, that's kind of the big, ultimate question. So, first of all, the tropes. Here's the thing. The romantic comedy structure just actually replicates a very organic process that we all go through in real life. 

Which, is there a set up? Yes, it's who you are before you meet somebody, right?

Is there a meet cute or a cute meet? Well, any kind of a significant meeting when you're meeting someone who turns out to be a significant other has something about it. You know when you meet a nice couple you ask them, you know, How did you guys meet and often there’s a story. Makes sense. 

So do people go right from there to the Elvis wedding in Vegas? Well some but generally not. There is usually a point where you find out a little bit more about who the person is, and you realize what the differences may be, and a choice presents itself. Like, am I actually gonna go further with this? So there's your first act break. 

You could argue that the midpoint is when it really gets serious, right? When you actually make a commitment of some kind. And whether it's sex or whether it's emotional or both, hopefully, it's where it's sort of like, now we are in a different story. Now we are in the story of are we going to become a couple?

And again, is that the end of the story? No, in life, always there is doubt and there's a test of some sort. It's just human logic, right? You're not going to marry someone that you blithely don't know anything about, right? You always get to some juncture where you go, hold it, wait a second, what am I doing here? Who is this person? 

\Whether it's they snore, or whether they have the mother in law from hell, or God knows what it might be, there is always some kind of an issue where you have to decide. Often in life, that trust that you have developed in this new relationship is tested. And often we fail. We come back from it or we don't.So there's your dark moment and your crisis and climax. 

And then there's a resolution, which is when you decide, Yes, in fact, I am going to be with this person. So if you think about it, that is not some, nobody cooked that up in a laboratory somewhere. You know, you find it in Shakespeare because he just picked up on it from life as we know it. If you believe in monogamous relationships and even beyond monogamy, you could make that work. 

So those tropes have become tropes because they are real, right, cliches often are. And then you get into the area that we're living in, which is the post-killing the golden goose thing where the studios and audiences almost helped destroy the romantic comedy in the 2000s and 2010s because they just took all of that stuff for granted and kept cranking out stuff that really was fairly meaningless and they oversaturated the genre.

You add to that all the changes in our culture and the differences in how people date and whether marriage is even the endpoint and a real sea change in the culture itself. Combine that with a weakness of an oversaturated genre, and that kind of leads to where we are now. But that's kind of off topic, I realize.

Lorien: I really love your breakdown of it. It's how a relationship works in real life. Because for me, as you were doing that, I was thinking about my own relationship, right? And how, like all the different stages of it, right? Like how I met my husband, when we committed, then we broke up, then we got back together, then we decided to stay together, you know, all of that.

And but that can be said, that can be applied to any relationship in a movie, right? Like how does it feel in real life? So it's not just some like, Here are the prescriptive rules, because Hollywood says so. We recognize the truth of storytelling structure in that way because we recognize it in the rhythms of our own stories.

Which I find really satisfying and validating. You know, like to hear that articulated that simply is really powerful for me, so thank you for that. 

Billy: Well, organic is the key term, meaning if it reflects real life, if it feels in our gut, like this makes sense. It's kind of how, you know, you're in a bad rom com is when all of a sudden this beat, this trope is happening and you feel it's like, Oh, right, because they looked at, now is when they're supposed to be doing that. As opposed to when something happens, you know, because it's natural. 

Now the question you asked about subverting, this is what I love about Palm Springs. It's such a subversive movie from start to finish. For example, their dark moment is Christine Mallotti going out and standing in front of a truck and willfully getting herself killed. 

I mean, you know, cause it's a Groundhog Day story and she'll come back, but I mean, how dark can you get, right? I mean, that's not your conventional rom com beat, but that's the beat. It's simply the way the story is set up and everything else that's going on in it gave them ample opportunity to subvert every beat all the way down the line.

And I think that movie is very conscious about the question you posed. And you can feel the screenwriters going, Huh. Like, what would really happen in this situation with these two people that would both satisfy those beats and at the same time be incredulously hilarious, you know? 

Meg: In terms of the authentic, it's funny because we talk on this show a lot about lava. I'm like blah blah blah, I'm standing on my soapbox, and I had to realize myself in writing this romance horror, that some part of me didn't want to go to the authentic because of the lava under there. 

So I was writing very surface-y, I'm not going to say trope-y, but kind of trope-y, shallow characters because it was safer. And so it felt good. It felt good to write that. Until I got to the fight. And suddenly, you know, the fight was a fight that I have had. And things were said. 

As hard as it was to write that was also thrilling because it was like that authentic just arrived right and so I do think we talk about authentic on the show. Even here in a rom com, which I love so much that we're talking about rom coms and talking about authentic, and it can feel hard to do. It can feel painful to lean into that, right? That pain of that dark night, right? 

Like you have to subvert it in the plot, but that emotional pain of why you're going to go stand in front of a truck because of what's happening right here. That's the kind of personal stuff that's starting to bubble up. I just, I love it so much. 

So let's talk about the traps that we can fall into I just kind of talked about a trap which is: it's easier to write somebody who's perfect and says all the right things than to really go into the authentic messiness. But what are some more, you know, what are some basic traps that you see writers fall into when they write rom coms?

Billy: Well the first one by the way Things Were Said would be a great title for some kind of a rom com. The thing that I was saying before about thinking that you have to be writing a romantic comedy. That just generally, meaning, thinking that you do have to observe these tropes in a conventional way is the trap that I think is the worst. 

Another trap is, there tends to be too much of a general approach to the thematic end of a romantic comedy. And I find that the rom coms that have lasted and the ones that I come back to and that audiences come back to are the ones where the writer has a very specific take on, What does this couple getting together mean?

In other words, it's not just enough that they're two beautiful people and they're sexy and fun and charismatic and they hook up in the end. It's like, what does that really represent? What are you saying? It's like the Carver title. What are we talking about when we talk about love? What are you talking about as a screenwriter? What are you saying about love and romance in the year 2025, 24. 

And it's the scripts I read at the job or the ones that I encounter in consults where you can just tell that people are just not thinking deeply enough about that. Those are the ones that kind of fall by the wayside. The ones that sloppy or otherwise problematic as they may be that are really tackling as you say the lava that can be painful, those are the ones that resonate. And so I think a big trap, as you point out, is avoiding those depths.

And what really makes sense is to go, What am I trying to say about what I believe about love? What do I believe about relationships? Even if my conclusion is that people should not be in them. You know, or whatever your stance could be. Dig into that. Because otherwise if you're just like, Oh, this is a funny idea and this is a crazy premise, you're going to be lost.

Meg: 100%. I'll tell you that's why my husband and I, who's my co writer, which is yes, we're married writing about a horror movie about marriage. It's why we got the job. Because we could talk about all the, what we do with the story and the structure and the blah, blah, blah. But every writer coming in is going to talk about that, right?

But we said in our marriage, we had this experience and we talked about it. And where we came out is that what love means to us, what this relationship means to us, is this. And every note session we get, they still come back to that. Right? 

Billy: That's gold. 

Meg: They're tossing stuff out, but we still want to do that. That's what we want to do. That's our North Star, right? So, because it was very personal to us, and it is how we run our marriage, right? And run it, you know what I mean. How we keep it on the grails. So I think it's really super, super important to think about that stuff as you're, and sometimes you don't know, right?

I don't, sometimes when you're writing, you don't know, but if you lean into where it starts to feel vulnerable, it is coming up. It knows, the dreamer knows, like you just got to keep pushing toward it. You don't have to intellectually know in draft one because you won't, you just won't. 

Billy: One more trap that comes to my mind is if there's any weakness in the romantic comedy genre overall, in terms of versus other genres, is it's not so much a director's genre because it's not necessarily visually exciting. 

And Romancing the Stone became the towering hit that it became because it was full of action. It was full of visuals and you can see it in a good romantic comedy that at least has an image system as Moonstruck does for example, where the writer is thinking visually because there's a tendency in writing romantic comedy to go dialogue, and just, there's all that white space and you just go to town in your dialogue.

But as we know, it's harder and harder to get a rom com released theatrically at this point in time. And if you want to earn the big screen, please, by all means, give us something to look at. 

Jeff: That's so smart. I'm sorry to interrupt Billy, I'm just, I'm a writer director so my brain's kind of popping. Would you feel like that would be like trying to find great set pieces for your two leads? Like, practically, what can we be thinking about? 

Meg: Yeah, you said the word image system. Tell us about image system. 

Billy: Image system, well that comes out of literature, but it's this idea of like, if you say my love is like a red rose. And then you run with it, right? Then you've got all these, because thorns, because whatever, you know, and you, so in a movie, you can have an image system, meaning in Moonstruck, there's the moon and each character sort of has their moon, right? And then there's this whole motif about hands. Cause Nicolas Cage has the wooden hand and then they go to the opera and you see the hands taking hold of each other.

So he's, John Patrick Shanley is working an image system in that movie and the audience probably never even notices, right? But it operates on a real powerful unconscious level. So, but when I'm talking about visuals generally in a romantic comedy, two things. 

One is not just set pieces because yes, please, bring on the set pieces. But two, what's the world? The best way to enliven a romantic comedy is to say, what's a world I have not seen a romantic comedy in? You know, maybe it takes place on Mars. Maybe it takes place at the DMV. Whatever it is, Let's have it be something fresh, right? 

Because the go to's, studios are running out of cities, right? We've already done New York, we've done Chicago, Seattle's getting a lot of play, San Francisco, you know. It's like, where can we go to shoot a rom com? Well, how about, just think about not in those terms, but what is a world that you know, that is perhaps unknown to other people that you could really get inside of and make fascinating. Or what's a world that we all know that we've never quite seen from this particular angle or perspective So I think it's both world and visual excitement slash set pieces and things like that can really enliven your rom com.

Lorien: So that the world becomes a character as well, right? Can these two characters be together in this world, right, with their competing values? 

Billy: Exactly. And what you're hoping is that the world provides you with a set. You know, if you've got a movie that takes place in the shooting of a soap opera, there's going to be a set piece that's on the set, live on air, right? So, that's a world that created that famous, wonderful climax.

Lorien: What was that movie with, was it Kevin Kline? What was the soap opera movie? 

Billy: Soap Dish. 

Lorien: Soap Dish. Was it Kevin Kline? No. Was it? Yeah, I love that movie. 

Billy: I think so.

Meg: But you were thinking about Tootsie, right? 

Billy: Yeah, I was thinking Tootsie, but it doesn't matter. 

Lorien: But I went to a different rom com. 

Meg: There you go. Do you think that, this is something, when I was a producer that was talked about a lot, and I don't know if it's still true anymore, but aren't most rom com worlds aspirational?

You know, the maid who's going to go in and try on the clothes of the rich woman and suddenly the rich guy sees her and she gets to go off into the rich world that she never has. So this counterpoint of the ordinary person versus the aspirational, or do you feel like in modern times, that's not so necessary?

Billy: I think it still hangs in there. But I think in a way, it's one of the oldest aspects, because if you think back to Jane Austen, the godmother of romantic comedy, and Shakespeare, and the early stuff, class was always a prominent thing, right? It's the whole idea of like, he's from the wrong side of the tracks, or whatever.

So, A, that's instant conflict. And B, it gives you an arc, right? It gives you someplace to go. So I just think that's like old storytelling truisms that just last. Because even today, class, of course, is a big issue and can be in a rom com. I don't see why not. But you are speaking to the fact that it's not a necessity.

But I do think it's something that hangs in there because again, it's authentic, it's true. It has to do with, you know, how we look at ourselves and our partners and like, who's got the power and, you know, are we equal in our, is there parity, et cetera, et cetera. 

Lorien: So you've mentioned a couple of times the, sort of the slow decline or death of, however you want to phrase it, of the rom com in the early 2000s, right?

And what can we do about it now? Right. We focus on character. You're giving us all these great tips or, no, let me rephrase this question. What's happening with the rom com right now in the market? 

Billy: Well, it's not in a great place in terms of the strength of the genre, obviously. Although, funnily enough, on the small screen, it's flourishing.

Netflix, you know, when they had their big Summer of Love, they had a bunch of rom coms on the small screen, like To All the Boys I've Loved Before, and there were a few others like that. So that's just operating like gangbusters, really. 

And then, counterintuitively, Anyone But You just proved that in fact, stars still open a movie because that's not any reinvention of the wheel. Talk about old wine in a semi new bottle. It's Sidney Sweeney that's selling that movie. And that's why that became a thing. So it shows you that, A, people still want to see these movies and they will actually go to a theater to see them if you can package it. properly. But, B, it's a struggle, you know, it's just harder to get a rom com theatrically produced.

And again, I'm just going to repeat myself. That means what can you do that's a little bit different? You know, what kind of a story can you tell that somebody doesn't feel like they've seen it before they answer? You know, if I see a trailer for romantic comedy and 25 seconds into the trailer, I go, right, this one–why would I go see it?

Again, Palm Springs, 15 minutes into that movie, by the time you're in the bizarre Groundhog Day, he's being chased by somebody who's shooting him with arrows part of that movie, you have no idea where that movie is going. In a general sense, of course, you kind of figure, oh, well, I hope they end up together in the end.

How are you going to get there? No clue. And what a beautiful feeling that is, right? That's what we want. You want to have some element of freshness and surprise in your movie. So I think the only solution is, solution, I use the word loosely, is to write as organically and originally as you can, in the hopes of coming up with a romantic comedy that people just don't immediately go, Oh, it's one of those rom coms.

And instead it's, Oh, it's who are these people and what is this world? And wait, I don't know where they're going with this. Then you're in a better place. Got a better shot. 

Meg: Jeff, you had a question that I think applies to this as well in terms of the modern rom com. 

Jeff: Totally. I mean, while you're talking about specificity, Billy, and you alluded to it earlier, you kind of mentioned like cultural mores changing and, you know, trying to be original and specific in our writing.

I don't know if you've read that Atlantic article that talks about how our connection to rom coms has changed because of the Hays Code, and the idea of creating sexual tension between characters is different in a world that doesn't care as much about premarital sex. I don't know if you have ideas about this, but I'd love to hear you kind of speak on it, and what we should be thinking about in terms of creating chemistry in a world that has a different view of how love operates.

Billy: It's a great question, and I think, again, it's the one that everybody I know who's working on a romantic comedy is trying to address. Which is, if you make an observation about this culture, if you're, if you've figured something out about swiping left or right, and, you know, or name your, you know, culture trope, that's an interesting thing to pursue. Meaning, yes, go after that. Actually raise a question that comes out of where things are now.

Is there such a thing as meeting somebody in person anymore, for example? Like, does that even work in the current moment? You could be writing about what is marriage in, you know, the current moment, and do we want it? And is there such a thing as an open marriage? And what does polyamory really yield? And are gay couples happier than straight couples? And if so, why or what?

You know, in other words, take on the things that we're all living through. Delve more deeply into the questions that we have about what's going on right now. Because then you're talking to each other. You're talking to the culture.

Jeff: That's great. When you talked about the remote couple, I love the idea of a rom com where they have great chemistry remotely. And then when they get in person, that's when it all falls apart. And like, they can only find intimacy when they, it's a really good observation that you made. 

Billy: You just wrote a great premise for a rom com right there.

Jeff: Maybe I should hide it. 

Meg: Here you go, Jeff. Okay, listeners, Jeff Graham is writing that. 

Jeff: That's mine. 

Billy: That's his. Yeah. But no, that's a perfect illustration of exactly what we're talking about. Because then you're taking something that we're living and you're writing about it. That's what we want. 

Jeff: That's great.

Lorien: Okay, I have a question. What are some, of all the romantic comedies ever made, what are some movies that people should watch if they are writing or wanting to write a rom com, for reference. 

Billy: Okay. 

Lorien: Obviously we're gonna start with The Philadelphia Story, so we don't even have to mention that one.

Billy: Philadelphia story is great for triangles. If you're writing a triangle story, watch Philadelphia story and then watch Broadcast News because those are great for triangles. You know, I'm a big fan of The Lady Eve for the older ones. I think that's kind of priceless, that movie. Hitch. People don't think about it much, but it's an interesting male point of view, contemporary you know, gets a little bit more into the modern era.

I would look at things like 500 Days of Summer, because that's a movie that stylistically is really interesting, and it plays with time, which is highly unusual in a rom com context. 

You know, the big old, the old ones that I mean, whenever I recommend When Harry Met Sally, I always say, don't try this at home because that is a dialogue driven, I mean, you look at the Ephron published screenplay, that's white space for days. But it's also interesting to study that movie and look at how Rob Reiner, with the help of Nora Ephron, came up with visual ideas consistently, all the way through the movie, so that the dialogue was not just dialogue. And so that's a kind of an object lesson in, in writing a good romantic comedy.

Those are the ones that come to mind, more recently. I would say look at hybrids, look at something like Groundhog Day to see how does a romantic comedy through line function when you've got a larger concept, because what a beautiful thing that is. When you've got a concept that's fresh and interesting and you have a romance to pilot it. Boy, then you are loaded for bear. And so I would look at movies like that. 

I cite Her in my book, because again, people may not think of that as a romantic comedy. It is a romantic comedy slash dramedy. It's a sci fi movie, but it's an interesting movie to study because all those beats are still there. But they are subverted because it's about a love affair between a guy and his software, basically.

Lorien: How does some of these, how does this structure, how do these ideas apply to TV shows? 

Billy: So the only real difference in a TV show is how to sustain it, because, you know, and this is true, of course, of every TV limited series or beyond. You can feel it, you know, if in the third season, oh, they're bringing the first boyfriend back. Or, you know, it's like, you can always tell when they are reaching.

My wife is a huge fan of Korean TV dramas, k-dramas, and rom coms. So I've been seeing a whole lot of that. And it's so interesting, you can really separate the good from the bad in that genre by, do you feel the contrivance? Do you feel like they've exhausted it by season two or three? Or is it actually moving forward with, you know, its own authenticity and its own integrity?

So for TV, I would just say, Boy, you better get your characters and your story set up as strong as it can possibly be so that you've got room to move. So that you can sustain a relationship and not even have them get together, let's say, necessarily until the end of the first season, perhaps, like maybe that's the climax of your first season.

There are some famous examples in TV history where they kind of felt like they lost it when they finally slept together. Moonlighting is one where people were just, you know, Oh, did they have to? 

Meg: Yeah. I thought that the Korean drama Crash Landing Into You did this so, so well. 

Lorien: What a gorgeous show.

Billy: Yes, and that's a huge, that always heads the big top 10 lists. But there's some others that really do it well as well. So I think the challenge in the series is simply figuring out ways to organically and authentically extend that relationship, which means you've got to have a great ensemble because you can't just depend on your two leads to carry that weight.

And two, you'd better have a world and that ensemble is in, that can generate its own kind of momentum and its own issues. 

Meg: So, can you talk about meet cutes and what are the qualities of a great one? 

Billy: What makes a great meet cute is, funnily enough, not that it be funny, okay? People always think, oh, it's gotta be some crazy zany thing that happens.

I always like to cite As Good As It Gets, which is a scene between Jack Nicholson and Helen Hunt where A, it's not a meet. I mean, technically they have met before. So first thing about meet cutes is it does not have to be literally a first meeting. The significance of a meet cute is when these two people really do combust, like when something happens between them for the first time.

So because there are many romantic comedies where it's, oh, that girl in the office that he never talked to, or, you know, so it's not just meeting, meaning it's a virgin experience. What a meet cute is is a significant meeting. And generally what it does is it telegraphs the dynamic of what the relationship will be.

Like what you find out in a meet cute is, Oh, I get it. He's like this. She's like that. Here's what happens when those two things combust. I see. So now we're going to see if that functions in the movie or what. And the other thing to remember about, oh, just to go back to the, As Good As It Gets, point is, he insults, he makes a bad joke about her sick child and she reads him the riot act.

And this man who's borderline sociopath is put in his place for the first time and meekly has to apologize. And it just completely opens up their whole relationship and everything else that happens in the movie comes out of that moment. So I point to that as technically that's their meet cute, but it's not funny, but it is, and it's not even a meeting, but it is hugely significant and it sets up the dynamic and tells us what we need to know.

So I think that's what a meet cute needs to do. 

Jeff: This is a silly question about meet cutes, Billy, but are they typically driven by agreement and chemistry or driven by, like, are we introducing how their belief systems spark and sizzle or how they bump? Because I feel like I've seen both versions of the meet cute.

Meg: Isn't it both? Isn't it both? 

Jeff: It's both, probably.

Billy: I like to think, hopefully it's a combo platter. You know, I mean, I, you better have some kind of a spark happening. Yeah.

Lorien: You started this interview off by saying that you were raised by this wonderful, loving couple, your parents, they took you to these beautiful, romantic movies, you fell in love with it, you're a romantic.

Holding on to that sense of being a romantic can be challenging, especially as a writer. So one of the people on our Facebook group asked, How do you write a romantic comedy when you are not feeling it in your real life? And even like, in my case, I can slip into cynicism so hard, right? To remind myself, like, joy, love, like, what is the answer to that question?

So like, what advice do you have for those of us that struggle with holding on to our romanticism? 

Billy: God. Wow, that's a great question and really tough to answer. I guess you have to find within yourself if it's not romantic love. Well, there's got to be some reason you're writing this story. 

Lorien: I guess maybe the better question is, how have you held on to your belief, your romantic? How have you held on to that? 

Billy: What I've held onto is my own love of people, meaning. And again, this is like, instead of writing a romantic comedy where you're just thinking like, he's a this and she's a that and hijinks ensue. 

Who are people you love? Why do you love them? What is it about them that makes you feel your life has been enriched by knowing this person. So I would turn that then to, to answer this screenwriter's question to character and say, can you be writing a character that expresses, yes, you can be cynical about romantic love and whether it ultimately works and is even possible in this world. 

One thing that doesn't change is there are lovable people. There are people who are important to you and people you care about. So if you're stuck on the more romantic side of it, I would say just shift, you know, shift that viewpoint a little to the left and think, Well, okay, well, who's somebody I love? And why do I love them? And what do they do for me? What do I do for them? And start from there. 

In other words, instead of thinking, what's the most romantic fireworks that can go off when somebody kisses, think about what's that, you know, it's sort of like the old cliche of who held your hair when you were throwing up when you know. It's like what have you gotten in this life where you felt like, I am loved or I love or both and look at that and maybe expand from there.

Lorien: That's such a beautiful way to look at our lava. Our lava doesn't always have to come from a place of pain. It can also come from a place of like joy. I can authentically tell a love story because I have loved and been loved and know people that are lovable. 

Jeff: And it's specific and it's so specific. Everyone's going to come with a very specific moment when they felt held or loved. And that says, like you said, Billy, it says so much about our characters. And yeah, it's a really lovely way to think about, lovely, a really nice way to think about our work. 

Billy: Love is not such a bad thing, you know, I mean. It's just so funny to me that the rom com is so widely maligned and disparaged. It's like, as if people are too embarrassed to own up to this simple thing, which is that it's the most important thing in our lives, right?

It's like, being loved and loving someone, and having that experience, or sharing with someone. it's just funny to me that we can't take it seriously enough. But don't get me started. 

Meg: Well, I know. I feel like we went through a period of in our business of cynicism became the cool, hip thing to be. Even in animation, it was very cynical. It felt very cynical to me, right? You always had to have the kind of cynical jokes and I think that's there, there's room for that. I'm not saying we don't know. That's fun too. I like those movies.

But we also can have movies about joy and love and hope, you know, I think so much of us want to watch romantic comedies to believe in that hope of those relationships, even though they're, and the best are authentic that talk about the warts and the hardness and it doesn't always work out every time. And, but that love is still there. Love is–

Billy: So true, Meg. And I also don't think they are mutually exclusive. One of the things that I love about Groundhog Day, one of the reasons it works, talk about cynical. Oh my god, the Bill Murray character is one of the most cynical protagonists who's ever lived, right?

So you've, that's what grounds that whole movie, in an authentic feeling, because we're going, yeah, he's not just, you know, some bozo who's handsome and is gonna fall for somebody hot. This is a guy who doesn't believe in any of that stuff. And so it's wonderfully you know, it acknowledges those difficulties that we're talking about.

Meg: Somebody said to me once that cynics are just broken hearted romantics. 

Billy: Well, there you go. 

Meg: This is why they would be wonderful, right, in a romantic comedy. We feel very dangerous for a cynic to possibly even open the door to that again, right? 

Billy: Well, cynicism is so much easier, is it not? 

Meg: So much easier.

Billy: Yeah. 

Meg: Was there something else that you would like to make sure that you tell our listeners out there? There's emerging writers and pros who I'm sure are, have already, I know I was writing notes. So is there anything else you would love to share with them? 

Billy: I just want to stress one thing that again, it seems so obvious, but sometimes gets neglected. This is one of the few genres that is about the pursuit of joy. That is what the romantic comedy is invested in. It's the pursuit of joy, not just happiness. Joy, meaning the joy of being alive and sharing it with another human being. That's at the core of this. So it's just something to tuck in your screenwriting back pocket and think, are you creating joy?

Not meaning just LOLs, but are you creating something magical? Because love is, you know, that's the big power in a romantic comedy. Power of love. All the cliches is it's a magical thing. We can't explain it in our own lives, right? And you can always logically try to say why it is that you love someone but that's a tough thing to nail down and just. 

Don't forget that's where you are when you're writing a romantic comedy. That's the center of fun in it. And so as you were discussing before, I sure hope you're having fun, because otherwise, please don't. 

Meg: The pursuit of joy. I love it so much.

Billy: And it's also the genre that delves deeply into the loss of love. And that awful pain is a significant universal experience. Plus, romantic comedy enables us to laugh at ourselves and that pain, which is also a valuable thing. 

Meg: Thank you so much. This has been so wonderful. 

Billy: Thank you. 

Meg: We always end our show asking the same three questions, and I will start, which I think is a perfect segue.

What brings you the most joy when it comes to being a script consultant or your own writing? 

Billy: Well, script consultant, that's easy, is when you read something that, you know, blows the top of your head off and you go, Oh my God, I've got to get them to make this movie. My one claim, one of my claims to fame at Universal is, and believe me, there were other people right behind me, I'm sure, who had the same thought.

I read Get Out as a spec thinking, oh, this must be a comedy thing from Ian Peele, you know, like just totally blind. And by the end of the read, I was going, Oh, we got to make this movie, you know? And so like, it's those moments in that part of my life that are the best.

As a writer It's those moments when you do find a solution to a problem that seems to come out of the ether. You know when you've been working, can't get there, when you have that great bolt from the blue that feels completely like it's almost not you, right?

Those are wonderful. Those moments where you kind of feel like you've gotten this gift of something just comes into place and suddenly everything in the story is better because of this fix. 

Lorien: All right, the second question is: What pisses you off about your work? 

Billy: I call him the little fucker and the little fucker is the guy who sits on your shoulder and goes, God, you suck. And w why did you even think you could write anything? Right? So it's the little fucker. 

And then he has a friend who I equally despise, which is, I call him the guy from the night before, which is when you write until the wee hours and you're thinking, Oh god, this is so great. And then you come back the next day and you go, Who was the moron who wrote this last night? 

So it's those two things. Having to deal with the little fucker on your shoulder, who's always giving you a hard time. And two, having to deal with the bad writer who was there the night before, that you're constantly having to clean up after. 

Jeff: Oh, that's so great. I love how specific that is.

Meg: The little fucker. 

Jeff: I sometimes find Billy. I have to try to be nice to the guy who wrote from the night before because I'll get so mad at him that like as much as I want to punch him, I also have to be like, it's okay. I forgive you, but I have to get into this. 

Meg: That's exactly why I'm terrified right now. Cause I'm afraid that guy has taken over and none of it's actually any good. 

Billy: Well, but the good news there is somehow the other guy always shows up too, right? The guy the next day. That guy doesn't go away, or woman, so. 

Lorien: What if I'm dealing with the woman from last night and I'm waiting for the woman tomorrow, but who am I today?

Meg: It doesn't matter, just write. 

Billy: Just write. 

Jeff: Oh, that's great. Okay, finally, Billy, we always ask: If you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, and yeah, you can choose whatever version of yourself that is, but what advice would you give to that, Billy? 

Billy: All right. I have one thought with a sort of a caveat attached. It's sort of a two parter. The first thing I would say to him, to me, is take bigger risks. Just take bigger risks. Reach further. And don't care so much about what anybody thinks of you. I mean, the first draft, as we know, is for us. Right? I mean, the first time out, no one's watching. Nobody cares. So you might as well just go for broke, right? Push harder, go deeper, take bigger risks. 

But the caveat I would put on that, and this took me decades to learn as a writer, is once you've done that, do then step two, which is think about it as an audience. Once you've got it there, once you've got something on the page, that's the moment to step back and go, really would I go see this if I had no idea? You know, is this like other movies that I've seen? 

In other words, not about imitating trends, not about looking at what sells. I'm talking you, the audience, what you want to see. What, what really turns you on and what touches your emotions and look at it and go, wait, am I speaking to that? So that would be the two, two sides of that.

Lorien: Great. Thank you. I feel like I've had a whole semester of class with you. 

Meg: Me too! And I want more. And I want more. 

Lorien: I feel so lucky that I made so many notes. Yeah, thank you. 

Billy: And I feel like we were just getting started. But anyway, it's been a blast. 

Meg: Okay, you're gonna have to come back because I'm very inspired.

Billy: That would be a pleasure.

Meg: Because it was spectacular. 

Jeff: There was a distinct moment when you said something about being specific in writing and both Meg and Lorien both literally swooped down and started taking notes. 

Lorien: I got so many notes! 

Meg: Thank you so much for being here. But we have one other thing, don't go, we have one other thing to talk to you about that we're really excited about, which is all about you guys.

Lorien: We have been developing a special thing where we're gonna have Workshops and classes and Meg and I are going to pop on and do live story workshops and questions and answers and it's called TSL workshops and we're really excited about it. 

Meg: And we're doing this because you guys have asked for it. You guys are looking for more support, not just from Lorien and I, but from experts in the field. So we've gone to our friends, they've recorded workshops for you guys. It's really just about giving you guys support and a base and inspiration for your writing. 

Lorien: So we're launching it soon, but if you want to get more information now you can go to thescreenwritinglife.co and navigate to where it says TSL workshops and then enter your email address and we'll keep you updated on when it launches.

Jeff: And to make that easy, I've linked it in the description below. So you can just click there and sign up. I promise we won't spam you. I just want to quickly say, as the voice of the emerging writer on the show, these workshops are so game changing. I got to be on set to watch, obviously, Meg and Lorien and share their brilliance, but we also invited Pat Verducci and Sheila Hanahan Taylor, former guests of the show, and it is just like such excellent specific content.

And editing these workshops I've kind of fundamentally changed the way I approach my writing. It's just really good stuff. And I'm really proud of what we've made. I'm proud of what we've produced. And we want to share it with you all. We feel like we've been working on this for like a year and we're finally ready to launch it.

So signing up with your email simply gets you more information. The link is down there. And we are so grateful for you all and would love for you to join us on this journey. 

Meg: Thanks so much for joining us on today's show. For more support, check out our Facebook group where both emerging and professional writers are finding community.

Lorien: And Billy's books are linked in the description below. And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.