196 | Inside Out 2 Writers Meg LeFauve and Dave Holstein

When asked about his first time working in feature animation, Meg's “Inside Out 2” co-writer Dave Holstein described the process as: "writing inside a dishwasher while it's running." This is just one of many charming talking points in this lovely conversation between two brilliant minds: Dave, and our very own Meg LeFauve!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we are thrilled to welcome writer and showrunner Dave Holstein to the show. I'm excited to talk to Meg and Dave about co-writing Inside Out 2, and then we will chat more with Dave about his TV career as a showrunner. And a writer. 

Meg: Yes. Dave is known for his work on groundbreaking half hour TV dramedies like Weeds, The Brink, and Kidding, starring Jim Carrey, which Dave created and showran. Kidding was nominated for two Golden Globe Awards, including Best Comedy Series. 

Lorien: So welcome to the show. 

Meg: Welcome to the show. 

Dave: Thanks, guys. It's so nice to be here. 

Lorien: So we're excited to chat, but first we're going to talk about our weeks, or what we like to call Adventures in Screenwriting. And as usual, I'll go first. So, I have as always been struggling to generate pages. I don't know what's happening. 

So, you know, I asked myself all those questions. What do I want? Why do I want it? What's my plan? And I realized that what I'm not having is stakes. So I worked on a deal with my manager that if I don't deliver pages every Friday, I have to donate money to something that I find reprehensible. 

So, and I told my family and they were like horrified. So we now have a whole family, the whole family is in on it, right? Give mama space to write. Don't come in her office. So, and I told Meg and everyone on TSL. So like, when I say I'm writing– 

Meg: We were equally horrified that you would ever give money to that. So, yeah. 

Lorien: So I've let everyone in my community know that like when I say I'm writing, I have to be writing. So, that is helping a lot and it's more than just accountability in terms of like the shame of not meeting a deadline, you know, to a manager or something. It’s real for me.

So I am cooking. I am writing. I sat down this morning. I wrote 11 pages. I'm super excited. So I just have to keep that momentum going and write a script in the next three days. It'll be fine. I can do it. Super easy. I mean, it won't be good, but I'll have written it. 

Meg: Isn't that half the battle? 

Lorien: Yes. So Dave, how was your week?

Dave: My week was great. I'm sort of in the germination phase of writing where I've got a couple little seedlings and, you know, there's maybe one or two that are a little more mature than the others, but I don't know. I'm a firm believer in the plant metaphor of writing and watching things kind of grow from seed and that's where I am right now.

Meg: Will you kind of germinate like different pots, let's just go with the metaphor, and then see which one kind of, is one taking root, and then start to prune back? Or do you, how long do you like to keep multiple things going? 

Dave: God, I realized the extent of my metaphor ended there. I couldn't even comprehend how to keep taking it.

But I have a couple things that are kind of in the treatment phase, you know, where I am a firm believer in like, I'd rather get, I'd rather do a thousand rounds on the outline, you know, and on the early stages of something. And so I really try hard to like just keep polishing those and making those make me feel like the tree will be sturdy.

And yeah, that's what I've been up to. 

Meg: That's awesome. Mine is pretty quick. I just am realizing this week what a weird job we have. Like it's so weird. 

Dave: Now you're finally realizing? 

Meg: No, I know. I always remember it at different stages. 

Lorien: Meg, why didn't you tell me this? 

Meg: It's so weird what we do. Meaning we pour ourselves into a creative thing. A creative project. We manifest out of nothing this thing that becomes a part of you. I don't care if you don't even like it while you're writing it. It is a part of you. You have put your psyche and your psychology and your spirit and your heart and your artistic endeavor into something.

And then you turn that script in, in live action. And yeah, nobody calls you back. Like, what? Like, because I do understand cause I used to be a producer. Like to them and their world, that's going a million miles an hour. It's a widget. And I don't mean that even in derogatory. Like, it's a thing that they have to do, and they gotta make phone calls, and they gotta go, like, I get it.

But it's also, how weird is that? Like, you just, it's literally like if I put a painting up in an art gallery and nobody came, and nobody showed and now, we have this movie coming out, Dave, and I don't know if you have this experience, and TV might be very different, but for features, it's so weird! You spend years of your life on something, and yes, you get reviews and people talk online or maybe on Facebook.

But like, in terms of actually experiencing it with people, like I just invited a bunch of friends to a screening because I was like, well, how else do you actually experience this with people that you care about? Because you don't. It’s so weird. I’m just finding it very strange. 

Dave: Not with a bang, but with a whimper, you know. Like it's always like you just tear your heart out and your hair out and you write and write and you work so hard. And then when the thing finally comes out, it's so far away from you that if you chose to, you could ignore it completely, you know? 

Meg: Yes! Especially in today's day and age, you really could just completely. And people will go see it without you. And that's great. 

Dave: How dare they? You know?

Meg: No, it's so weird. It's just weird. I just find it all very strange. 

Dave: It's weird. 

Meg: And I'm trying to process it. And it's like the best part. This is the best part. Dave, we are in the best part. Something got made and is coming out. 

Dave: I know, people keep telling me that. Yeah, it just goes back to something you said a second ago, which is like to never forget. This is for the non-writers, but like, to never forget that writing is personal, you know. And that there are too many, I think, on the executive side, on the agency side that just, they work really hard and they forget that, like, it is, we're not a paper company, you know. 

We really do put ourselves out there every time we do this, and there's a vulnerability to it. And it doesn't, that sort of, like, validation is kind of a bad word, but like, you know, getting just acknowledgement that, like, you did a thing is sometimes really important. 

Meg: Exactly. You did a thing. And it is very vulnerable, right, to give your script out, as everybody knows, even emerging writers know. To give your script out to someone is a vulnerable act. It's also a very vulnerable act to have it coming out in theatres. 

Like, it is a, you know, again, no matter how far away from it you end up in writing, it's still a vulnerable experience, so. But I'm really excited for us to talk about the film and you, Dave, so I will be done with my week so we can get into it.

Lorien: Yes, now I get to put on my interviewer hat. So, leading into that, it's a good segue, what, and I'm, you know, what made you say yes to this job? 

Dave: Wow. I mean, I think I have been trying to work at Pixar for about 10 years now. And I could never quite get everything to line up, you know. And this was such a great confluence of my favorite Pixar film. And you know, I think I really enjoy writing things that are the intersection of like heart and humor. You know, where you can write a comedy that has something to say. 

And I think that I had a conversation with Meg once about just the cultural impact of Inside Out and just the, there's very few times in your life you have the opportunity to create art that will be seen on a massive scale that will have outsized influence on people's actual mental health and growth, you know. And I think that just the opportunity to be in the cockpit of that somewhere just felt like, you know, an amazing opportunity. 

Meg: And a rare one, don't you think? A rare opportunity.

Dave: No, I get those all the time. I'm constantly–

Meg: Well, you do create them, Dave. Look at your own work. Look at your shows. You are doing the same. Pixar, because of, because it's for families seems to, you know, it ripples so far. 

Lorien: But Meg, you have a similar story, right? You said, you were like, I'm going to work at Pixar.

Meg: Originally, yes. Way in the day, I kind of set it as my beacon because I thought the storytelling was so good and, you know, for Inside Out 2 it's easy because I wanted to go back and hang out with those characters and I loved Kelsey and so that was an easy transition for me. 

I will admit it wasn't as easy of a transition to move off and I got an opportunity to do something with my husband in live action. It was too good of an opportunity to pass up so we went and worked for Sony. And I remember thinking, oh boy. It's like handing your baby over to someone.

And then I found out it was Dave Holstein, and I was like, all right! Winning the lottery! I just, cause Dave and I worked together on a TV show way back in the day.

Dave: Way back in the day. 

Meg: Way back in the day, so I knew Dave very well, and I knew how talented he was, and he and I spoke and, you know, some people don't realize that. That sometimes we talk to each other, the writers, and say, hooray and good luck. And just that the reach that he was going to be able to have with, cause Dave is such an incredible artist. So it was so great that he was going to be able to do this.

Lorien: Yeah, it's not uncommon to have to hand your project off to someone else or that you aren't even told that you're going to be rewritten. 

Meg: That can also happen, yes.

Lorien: So it sounds, it's inspiring that you had that communication and that sort of connection.

Dave: Oh, I mean, it was so great because I've always looked up to Meg in a lot of ways. And also just to be able to work on a project that someone else I had known and respected had worked on was really cool. And just to be able to have an open line of communication through the whole process, like, has just been really helpful and very rare. I mean, it's sort of completely random that two writers who go back 20 years happen to be put in this situation. And yeah, no it's–

Meg: I remember saying to you, I think it's fate, Dave. I think the universe wants you. It needs you for this story right now. And I was right, because–

Dave: You did say that.

Meg: It was, this story needed you. 

Lorien: Okay, so question for people who are working in feature animation, what's it like transitioning from live action, never having worked in feature animation, especially coming from TV live action? Because I got to work with Meg as she made that transition onto Inside Out. 

Dave: When other writers ask me that question, I usually say, well, have you ever written inside a dishwasher? While it's on? And that's sort of my experience. 

Lorien: And you can't open the door. 

Dave: You can't open the door until the cycle is over. And that cycle could take years. I, it's, I do love the many different processes of creating something in written form. I mean, every pipeline is different. Every, and I've been blessed to work on many different kinds of things and half hours and premium and network.

And the Pixar pipeline is fascinating and completely different than anything out there. I like to say that Pixar is like this indigenous tribe that created fire on their own, you know? Like they're completely like, unlike Hollywood. We've all kind of, we all kind of drink from the same trough, but like, but Pixar is a whole different animal.

And to be right, a writer up there is you're constantly in all three stages of production–writing, shooting and editing–at the same time and constantly having to juggle just clarity and story arcs and just making sure that like the pylons in act three have been moved. And so what does that do to the pylons in act one? And you're just constantly chasing your tail in a dishwasher while it's on and that's–

Meg: With a lot of people in that dishwasher with you. 

Dave: It's a small dishwasher. It's the clown car of dishwashers. And with a lot of fine china in there as well. So it's, yeah no, it's very special.

Lorien: So Meg, what advice did you give Dave before he started? 

Meg: Well, I didn't really need to because I thought, and because I don't come from, television feels very collaborative and this is such a collaboration that I knew that he would do well in terms of that. Some writers who come in from features are just stunned because it, they don't have that TV experience of the room. 

And I think the only thing we talked about was the storyboard artists and that they are creators in their own right, right? When you hand somebody a sequence and that it is happening at the same time. But and that was, you know, beforehand, I don't, we didn't talk. It was more after kind of, how's it going and checking in. But I think–

Dave: She told me what I should have done.

Meg: No I didn’t.

Dave: I'm kidding, but I do remember being so excited to meet the story artists and to really see them as this extension of the writing process and to be able to lean on them as sort of something akin to a writer's room where you can walk into, we call it the fish bowl, you know. where they all work.

And just to be able to say, I've got an idea or I've got a problem. And you know, there's so much in the Pixar process that is, we're all having this giant conversation, you know. And there's like 300 people involved in this process, or maybe 200, right?

And everyone is having this conversation on different levels–character, story, art, you know. And there are so many ideas that come flowing in that conversation, and I feel like it's the screenwriter's job to just be very, a really good listener and to start plucking those ideas out of the water, you know, when you can form a bigger thought, you know. And to present that when you can. And to keep that process churning and churning so that you can just sort of, I don't know, you're sort of in charge of making sure that all the ingredients become a recipe. 

Meg: Which I have to say is writing. Like I think that some people, maybe it's because of the way Walt Disney did it, like they think that writers are really just like punch up dialogue work in animation.

It's just, in feature animation, it really isn't true. You are writing drafts. You are having to create structure and character arcs And so there might be a lot of ideas flying around, right? But an idea is an idea. Like an idea is not a story. And to that you really are the writer of this story. And I think that sometimes people get, forget that honestly, quite honestly.

Dave: You know, I have a background in musical theatre. And there's a, you know, sort of saying that like the book writer is the most thankless job because people just think you write the dialogue in between the songs, you know. And really, I think the writer's job in any capacity is to organize information in the right order, you know, like in the right way.

It's amazing the impact you can have by switching the order of something or knowing that this means that this has to go here, and then if this happens here, then this has to go there, And so much of, there's no real credit for that, you know. I mean, it's, but it's, a big part of the job is not writing the really sexy jokes, but, like, just making sure that, like, the information is delivered in the correct order is sometimes a really important thing.

Meg: And that it, which I think you also did so beautifully, that it's emotional. Like that, you know, people can have ideas and throw things around but to execute that idea in the right order in the structure in a story that is still the character and the thematic and that it's emotional and guess what guys that was a fun idea but it doesn't actually do all those other things so do you still want it because it doesn't deliver that. So just the writing is happening as in this dishwasher experience. It is happening. 

Lorien: So, writing Inside Out 2, right? Meg, you wrote it. Dave, you wrote it. What was it about it that you put of yourself into it. Like, where's the lava, the like, personal, emotional, that you get–

Meg: Well, I have anxiety. So that's, I did a lot of spit balling on anxiety and what she could do and all the crazy things she does in my head.

And then my joy. Like you can't be happy and anxious at the same time. Like it's trying to find your own joy. So that was one thing that was very personal to me. But Dave, I'd love to hear what was personal to you. 

Dave: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think that time in my life when I was 13 was a really emotional time. And I certainly remember that it was a time when there were a lot of emotions all kind of grabbing at the console at once, you know. I didn't really have my Identity formed, you know. I had a tremendous speech impediment as a kid and like it was always a source of anxiety and a source of embarrassment.

And so I just kept responding to the universality of some of these new emotions that were, you know, there's no good and bad in the emotional language, but there's certainly emotions that challenge you as a kid, you know. And I think that I just kept leaning into those moments, you know. And when Joy is your protagonist, you know, like, what is the impact on Joy?

I just sort of kept asking myself, like, you know, how did I maintain joy and find joy at that age when joy wasn't driving, you know. Like, it was not a time when, joy was driving earlier, you know. But as I was becoming more susceptible to, you know, things that I perceived as my own flaws, or things that were sources of anxiety, there was a great, I think, question the movie kept asking, which was like, what happens to joy when anxiety takes over, you know. And that was always a very personal question to answer. 

Meg: And there was also like, and I remember us talking a lot about this in the very beginning, like could it, could you say, and I think we, you can, that anxiety arrives and is oh my god, Joy, you're totally putting us in a terrible position. Like you are making us vulnerable. You're too young. That joy can feel very young and it can make you feel very vulnerable. 

And that there is a point that anxiety has, which is don't do that. Right. That this is, we're growing up. Please don't do that. Like, I think that did feel very real for being a girl at that age, at least, you know, that it felt young.

We used to have some crazy scenes where she was really young and acting silly that were super fun. So, it was fun to explore that, like, those horrible moments that are embarrassing yourself with your joy. 

Dave: To your credit, I mean, Joy is created as you know, it's hard to create flaws in a Disney protagonist in certain ways, right?

And I think that there's, so we’re really smart about the way Joy was conceived, which is that she's a little naive, you know. And that there are moments where you can exploit that for dramatic purposes, you know. 

And also for humor, but there's just, you know, there's a funny moment when she walks into a locker room. And she's like, everyone's staring at Riley. And she's like, oh, locker rooms are places of mutual respect. You know? And like, she keeps moving like, and there's just something like about Joy that I've just always appreciated in that she has a lot to learn and she is treated as sort of a younger energy.

Meg: And yet, and again, we'll decide if we can put this in or not, but that she in her own way is maturing joy because it’s becoming more compassion, you know, for yourself. That joy isn't just going out. It isn't just something you're experiencing out there, that it can be something for yourself to have.

Dave: Something I kept feeling about the movie was, you know, the first movie for me was like that Joy discovers the power of sadness, right? 

Meg: Right. 

Dave: And for the second movie what sort of dawned on me late in the game was oh, this is a movie where Joy discovers the power of joy. 

Meg: Yes.

Dave: And that's a way to, in a way, escalate and keep the story moving and to continue that character growth that we want in our main character.

Meg: Because that's so much of a sequel right because when we were very early in development it was like, well, we can't just have her accept another emotion because that's the first movie. Like that's the same arc. Right. 

And if the first movie was about, you have to step away. And allow other people and other emotions to participate. Can the second movie be about, no, you have to step forward. You have to be, you know, and can, could Joy do that, right? Now, that's so fun to say in a development room, by the way. In year one. 

Dave: Yeah. 

Meg: Cut to year four, when you're still trying to figure out–

Lorien: Let's talk about that, right? Like, in these movies, in the Pixar process, there are sequences that are in, then they fall out. Characters that are in, they fall out. Themes, ideas, right? They're in and out. On Up, it was, we came up with, which was just put it back, just take it out, just put it in, right?

So it's, what are some of those things that you kept putting in, taking out, putting in, taking out, and how did you find what you said earlier, which was like putting everything in the right order? 

Meg: Well, I'll just talk about early development and then Dave can talk about where, you know, when he came in and what, you know, all the amazing work they did there with that.

We had, I don't think there's anything in the first screening that's still in the movie by the way, like there's a whole character that I love. Her name was Gail. She was a fisher captain out fishing for ideas. I just, there, you know, there was so many great things, but it all kept coming back to Joy’s story.

Like there were so many, at those early days, you're doing so much fun stuff, like what could be in the mind and who is she with and what's the adventure. And you have to, such a balance of that's so fun, but is that Joy’s arc? Is that, do we need that for Joy? So for me, in terms of the in and out, it was always trying not to get, and I did get too in love with something.

If it had to go, it had to go. Like procrastination land had to go, but I did love it. So it's always for me going back to Joy. And of course, Riley too, we have three storylines going on as Dave found out the chess match of, 3D chess of Riley story. Joy’s story. And what's happening with Anxiety and headquarters. And all of them are arcing and you know. So that always as a writer for me, you had to keep going back to that and reminding everybody that there's this core thing under here that we have to keep going back to 

Dave: I couldn't have said it better.

I think I mean, I had a talking raccoon that I was really in love with. I wish that was, that's totally true. I had lots of, I had, I think when you come in, you know, you try to find your place among the conversation, you know, and I, for the first couple of months, I remember knowing my place and also trying to insert humor that I really enjoyed.

And I think those were the, obviously the quickest to come out because sometimes jokes are the easiest thing to come out. But there were lots of little bits and moments that I felt like, oh, I think I've like kind of added something here. And talking raccoon potentially.

And, you know, you, like Meg said, you know, in the end, it all comes down to, like, what does Joy want? What does your main character want? And what is, what are they learning? What is their drive? That's what we have time for in the movie. And if you're not supporting that 110%, those things are always on the chopping block. 

But you know, it's funny, I mean, you asked me that question and I immediately thought of like, there's just too many things to mention, of like, that aren't in this film. It's the process of making, you build jigsaw puzzle pieces, you know, you're building like, like 10, 000 jigsaw puzzle pieces, but you only use about 100 of them. You know, and all those pieces, they can make different cool puzzles. I mean, they're all valid puzzles and there's, I think, here's what I'll extract from this.

Is that something I've always believed is there is more than one correct way through a story. And that I think we can get dialed into the fact that we have to find the one true way through this screenplay or through this story. And I don't think that's correct. I do think there are probably 13 different ways that are great and satisfying and maybe riff on a different theme, or find a different ending.

I think that's possible, and I think I kept feeling like, you know, the stress of a movie like Inside Out with the pressures that are on you, are to create the only version of this movie that works. And when you sort of open yourself up to the fact that there's probably multiple, depending on what you want to say and that different opinions are valid and different endings are valid, it does free you up a little bit.

Meg: God, I wish I had heard that. I think that's genius. That's genius. To allow that creative flow to happen, because if you're so worried about the target, which is teeny tiny one way, it can really lock you down. It can really lock you down. 

I mean, one thing though, I'm sure you, and I know for a fact, you added so much fun humor to this. It's, I can't wait to, after the movie comes out, we can really get in and do the spoilers. But one thing, I just was like, that's fucking genius, Dave Holstein. 

But I also, one thing that you did create that I think I want to talk about, because it is core to the story was something that I feel like we share, which is the belief systems. And, you know, that was very early in the process for us in terms of the head of story at the time, McKenna. You said the word belief systems and I was like, oh my god, Mike, I know belief systems because I have a seminar in which I teach them and trying to, you know, we're getting everybody up to speed on it. And the art came in with these beautiful strings.

And then literally we did a screening and they were like, yeah, take that out, you know. And they were right. Because the way that we and I as the writer had placed it, and what function it was serving, and it was way too late in the story, and it was just like another thing, right? Like, oh my god, there's so many things! There's personality islands, and there's core memories, and there's, it's too many things. 

And so you do that. You take something that you're like, oh I love that, but out it goes. Because the form it's in doesn't work or what it is doesn't work. And then it can come back, but it's so beautiful to have somebody, and you can talk about how you found it because you found it in such an interesting way. 

I just feel like it was, it's a beautiful thing that you were able to do because it's like you took a spark, you took that seed. Let's go back to your original potting metaphor. You took that seed and I'd love to talk about it, because it's so important to the story.

Dave: You know, I think that I will say when you left, I found a giant shoe horn, and I just used it to get that back in the film. And, you know, the reason I go to the seed thing a lot is because I just do, I believe that everything deserves every prop, every idea deserves three beats, right? Like everything deserves to, to grow from something into something else, you know? 

And when I was in my first couple weeks at Pixar, I was given a folder that had a bunch of deleted sequences. And one of those sequences was the belief system, and I could not get it out of my head. And there was just something about, I mean, the art was beautiful. I felt something immediately. There was this game that was being played where you would pluck a string that represented one of Riley's beliefs and that you heard Riley's own voice state the belief and the belief could be serious or funny. And it just encapsulated tonally the whole film for me.

But also I just saw a thing I wanted to plant and grow because it felt like, that there was something. I think something, something that is part of the sequels is that, look, the first movie is so great. It's just so wonderful and to distill it down to a parable about happiness and sadness, you're never going to beat that. You know, so the trick is not to retread, but to find little outlets in the world you've created that can make the second film stand apart from the first film.

And the first film, for me, was all about memories. Memories were the visual creation that I, the marbles that I so associate with the first movie. And when I saw the strings of the belief system, I saw a way to escalate the visual language of the film. And so I tried really hard to push that into the first act as something that would, we would return to, you know, and when I kept kind a written, kind of wrote on a note card that Pete Docter never liked, but I did like the idea of it. And I'm going to say it here, which I wrote on a little post it note, like, I'll be okay. 

And like, I wanted that to be the last belief that was plucked in the film, you know, or some equivalent of that. So you saw this very easy encapsulation of Riley's arc, you know, where at the beginning, you could hear different beliefs that would showcase her anxiety. But in the end, you would hear a belief that just really crystallized where she ended up emotionally. 

And I thought that made the belief system, when I saw it in that folder just was, what a great visual way to deliver that idea. And we were able to take what you guys had created and sort of arc it over the film in a way that I think gives it a different fingerprint than the first film, you know, which–

Meg: No, it's genius. It's like such great, it's story math genius. How, cause it's so, there's so much stuff in this movie and that to be able to do that was spectacular. All right, let's go over to I want to make sure we get a chance to talk about you, your TV work. Because we're also such huge fans with that. 

So let's talk about Weeds and Kidding, our half hour comedies with serious dramatic themes. So, can you talk about that? Like, people call it dramedy. I don't know if you're a fan of that word or not. 

Lorien: But you know, I call it tromedy. 

Meg: Or tromedy. Good. That's good. But like, for you as a writer, be that as a showrunner, where you're actually creating the show, or when you were on Weeds and doing it, what's kind of your take on it? What's your view of a dramedy? 

Dave: I mean, I was lucky enough to work on Weeds right out of college. Jenji Kohan, who created the show, was my first boss and mentor. And she had created a show that was essentially a sort of female response to The Sopranos. 

And I don't even think the word dramedy was used. And I'd like to give her credit for creating, if not the first one, then one of the first ones. I think that she really understood what a lot of people didn't, which was where television was headed creatively. 

I think when she sold that show, the premise was very sitcom friendly, right? It was a fish out of water. It was a white suburban housewife starts selling weed, you know? And like, what she did was approach it with, through character and where that character would go. Where networks would have wanted to push that is how much can you keep escalating the same situational comedy, you know, that same fish out of water premise.

And Jenji pushed through that and literally burned the sets down at the end of season three and was like, we're no longer in the suburbs. We're going to Mexico, you know. And whenever you think of the, you know, seasons after we sort of broke the mold, to Jenji's credit, her show would have been canceled after four seasons and she made it go to eight.

And something that I always took away from that experience was the sort of rich palette of tone that we were able to play with, was taking someone like SNL's Kevin Nealon and writing really hard jokes for him. And then the next scene, taking Broadway's own Mary Louise Parker and giving her really emotional scenes with her family. And long monologues with her and Justin Kirk just riffing and just such different tonal elements.

And it made me want to make shows that were sort of 10 episodes in a season and each episode a different color or a different like note on a chord, you know. Where you can play a hard comedy episode, you can play a more dramatic episode. And not every episode is a dramedy, but the season is a dramedy. The show is a dramedy, you know? 

And I really sort of, I guess I worked on shows like Raising Hope, which was a network comedy that was, you know, four jokes a page and a very different pace. And I just sort of always gravitated towards comedies that have something to say, you know, and that comes from Jenji. 

And when I got the chance to make Kidding with Jim Carrey and Michel Gondry and a lot of really cool people, you I mean, that was me just, I mean, it was such a gift to make that show, but it was essentially, I got to build my own sandbox. Like I just got to build a show where I could do all the things that made me want to get up in the morning and write, you know.

I could do a comedy, I could do a drama, I could do a musical, I could do puppets, you know, it was such a rare thing to, to get that chance. And I learned a lot from it and I had the best time creatively I've ever had on that show. 

Lorien: Can you talk about your first time showrunning and what you did right and what you did wrong? 

Dave: Sure, I can, you know, it's funny, being a showrunner in television, and I love television from a writer's perspective because you are given the control that you seek as a writer. You know, you really do, you are given the ability to make a lot of decisions that you don't get to make at Pixar or on a film, you know.

Because frankly, there's just too many pages to write. And at the end of the day, that's on you and that's why it's your shop. And the thing they don't tell you though is, you know, you may have written a play Off Broadway last year and then someone makes that play into a tv show the next year and suddenly you're the CEO of a 50 million dollar company. Which is exactly what you are. You have a, if you're writing a 10 episode premium cable show, you've got about a 35 to 50 million dollar budget and it's on you to hire the right people to make the right decisions and get that and land that plane.

And for me approaching as a writer, my, the things that I did that I would, that I treat as wins and successes and things that I learned that did well were leaning into the fact that as a writer, I have the ability to deliver the paperwork early. I have the ability to start the writer's room a little earlier if I can, to beg for more weeks in the room so that before we start shooting, we have 9, like 15 page outlines to a half hour show and 8 scripts or something of that magnitude so that the art department knows what they're building later.

The locations can, you know, can get you something you'll need in the finale and you can double shoot it in the pilot, you know, or the first episode. And I think that the ability to push the room to write, to create the pipeline that we did, I was very happy with. 

There was a pipeline that led to a lot of documents. And something that I would unfortunately do to Showtime, which I still do to this day, and I hate that I'm going to admit this, but I think it's a good thing, which is, I would sometimes turn in more than one document, and that led to fewer notes on the documents. 

Lorien: I love this strategy. I'm writing it down.

Dave: And sometimes we would do it on a Friday. Because we knew that–

Lorien: Right before a holiday weekend?

Dave: Yeah. Because we knew that if we turned in two outlines, yeah. I mean, it wasn't pernicious, it was more that like, we knew if we turned in two outlines that the first outline would kind of run interference for the second outline, you know. And that we could, you only have the same amount of time to read all that, you know, and so we sort of got some things through that way.

But. I mean, honestly, just leaning into the strength of what you know, which is like, I don't know how to budget, but I do know how to save time later. And also to have to really engage with my actors. I had a lot of actors on that show that deserved to know what they were up to in advance, so that the last thing you want is to have Frank Langella, pull you aside a second before he's about to shoot a scene and tell you he doesn't like the name of the other character or something, you know. Like that's already been printed on a t-shirt, like something like that.

You want to give them time to have those conversations and they will have those conversations and it will not be the conversation you expect it to be. But between Frank and Catherine Keener and Judy Greer and Jim, I mean, Carrie, like you had a lot of people whose time deserved to be respected and you wanted to earn yourself some, you know, just some good things for later by being, having a lot of conversations with them early.

Meg: This is perhaps a naive question. When I got to Pixar, sometimes, and it depends on the director, it depends on the stage, the storyboard artists don't get the whole script. They'll get their scene. So when you're working with an actor in live action on a TV show, are you giving them as many, obviously as many scripts as you can? Or are you trying to give them one and then one more, or how much do you, how much do you give them at one time?

Dave: When it was the first season of the show, and I was trying to lure, like, Frank Langella to be a main character and you know, on the show and commit, I gave him seven scripts. Because I knew I had to put in that work to get him.

In a second season situation where you're just moving with the flow, I would give them the script in probably a month out, you know. So that, and I wouldn't overdo it, you're right. I wouldn't want to give them so many that like they can start to question bigger storyline pieces. I didn't want to give them, you know, too much, but I wanted to give them enough where for me, it was about, there are conversations. When you're the showrunner, everyone wants to talk to you all the time.

And you can get decision fatigue very quickly. And they're all really important conversations. And the last thing you want is for Jim Carrey to pull you into his makeup trailer the morning of and ask you to rewrite a monologue. And I've done that plenty of times on plenty of shows, you know. And I just knew what I wanted to avoid, having been in situations as a writer and as a number two on other shows, I just did my best to put myself in a position where I could have conversations before they became problems. 

Meg: Problems. 

Dave: Yeah.

Lorien: I was curious, you talked about establishing relationships with the actors. How do you navigate that when the director is running the set? So that you're not stepping on the director's toes and respecting that relationship, but also getting to connect with the actors?

Dave: It's a great question. I think it really depends on your relationship with the director. I’ve worked with directors who I feel very close to and have had great relationships with. I've worked with directors where that was not the case. 

You know, Kidding was tricky. I did not get along with Michel very well on the show. We certainly have a lot of respect for him, but we certainly didn't get along in the way that would make those conversations easy. 

And at the end of the day, you know, I think one of the most emotional things for me as a writer talking about Kidding was, I had to give up the pilot. I really had to, I had this moment very early in the creative process where I was dealing with a Jim Carrey and a Michel Gondry who had worked together, obviously. And I was the odd man in that threesome. And that is a tricky place to be.

And I knew the thing that a lot of showrunners know, which is that more than anyone there, you know the whole story. And you know that for a TV show to work, the showrunner is the consistent voice. You know, there are some TV shows where a director, a feature director, will direct all episodes, and there's complete argument to be made that maybe they are the showrunner, if they are the consistent voice of the show.

But in my case, my director wasn't directing every episode and so, I knew things he didn't, and it was tricky. I mean, at the end of the day, the relationship between a showrunner and their lead actor is the most important element of a show. Because that is going to trickle down. I learned that from Jenji and Mary Louise. I've learned that on many shows. That directors come and go, and what makes TV a writer's space is that, you know? 

There were plenty of times where I put a lot of effort into, before I was even on the clock, to have lunch with Jim at his house, to have lunch with Catherine Keener on the roof of her house. Like, there's plenty of times where you understand that you have to put effort into creating relationships that can, where you can have good arguments.

Arguments aren't bad. Arguments are great on a TV show when there's mutual respect and when everyone is creating something together that they couldn't otherwise create individually, you know. And Jim Carrey is incredibly passionate and a genius, you know.

And people like that, they like to argue. They want you to push back on their ideas. They want someone to go toe to toe with. And when you're doing TV, you're with someone like that for three years. I mean, it's not a movie where it could be a few months. And so if you don't have a relationship where you can tell someone to their face, you don't like that idea, as bluntly as that, it really hurts you, you know?

And I think that building those relationships, especially with the director, you know, are going to make that process so much easier. I'm very picky about directors. I have a project right now that is Jackie Chan's first television show that he's ever done. And it's very exciting. 

Lorien: That sounds awesome.

Dave: And I am so excited about it. And I'm in the process of trying to figure out who's the best director for this project. And it is difficult because I know that relationship. You want someone who will go to set and execute what's hopefully a shared vision, but at the end of the day, and this is the hard part, it is the showrunner's show. And it is the writer's show. 

And I've had plenty of conflagrations that erupt when a feature director will go into the edit room and you will be there next to him. And you have to make a decision because they don't know what's happening in three episodes. And you have to say, actually, it's gotta be this way. And it can get messy. But you know what? Like in TV at the end of the day, it's harder to fire the writer than it is to fire the director. So you are protected in some form. 

Meg: That's what it may be. One of the only places. 

Dave: It is. They really, it is so much harder to replace a showrunner mid-season and people kept telling me that, not that it ever had to come to fruition, thankfully. But ultimately on Kidding, Showtime had my back and we had a great time and Michel and I get along just fine. And I really enjoy him as a person. 

I think that there's certainly, but what you're hitting on is really important, which is, there are a lot of feature directors coming into television these days. And they're used to, rightfully so, being the guy in charge. And it's a tricky thing to navigate, but if you find the right person, I mean, I have a handful of directors I love working with, you know? And I trust them to be on set when I'm not there. And that's a great thing. If you can figure that out, it makes your life so much easier. 

My buddy, Jake Schreier who came in and directed a lot of Kidding is now directing his first Marvel movie, which we're very excited about, 

Meg: Oo spectacular. 

Dave: You know we had a great shorthand and I just remember feeling like, oh, it can be like this, you know. You can have someone you can trust to be there when you're not there, which is when you're the showrunner, you feel like you have to be everywhere at once. And so that was a nice thing. 

Meg: Alright, so I need to ask you this question because so many of our listeners are emerging writers and we ask every person who comes in from television this question. So, how do you define a show's engine? People talk about your show has to have an engine and it's a very elusive thing to try to help people understand, who are newer writers.

So do you have any sense of what you would say about what? Or you're working on these little shows right now, right, on their pots, or they may not be TV, but how do you know when you've got that engine? 

Dave: Great question. Something that I think about that works for me is, when I think of a plot, and I know the plot, I think it's a movie. When I think of a character, and I know the character, it's a TV show. 

Because for me a TV show has to be a thousand stories. It has to be a thing that can go on and on. And to me that's usually a character-driven experience. That a character has a problem that will take a long time to solve. Or they have a want that is in conflict with something that will create plenty of stories, you know.

In screenplay writing, if I think of a great idea for a heist I've never seen, then like that's probably a movie, you know. And I think that in television, the engine is the thing that guarantees you multiple stories, you know, it guarantees, sometimes it's a comedic engine, that there's a comedic setup–housewife in the suburb selling drugs, you know–that promises me multiple stories. You know, if it's a comedic engine, it promises me multiple jokes, you know. 

And I think that, you know, when I'm looking for a TV show, it's a great thing to ask yourself is what is the engine of this thing and how am I going to get to episode 30, 40, you know, or even two, you know. What is the thing that makes this not a movie? And that keeps it going. What's the motor? 

Meg: Yeah. And it can be hard. It can be elusive. You think you have it and then you don't really have it. 

Lorien: Is it, it's not a cookie cutter, right? There's not one answer. 

Dave: No, and that's why I love you know, TV is that every show has its own sort of formula that you don't really, you can't really know it until you get into the writer's room.

You think you might know it. But like, you'll start to realize that there's a, it's a math. There's always a math to storytelling, right? And like, I remember on Kidding, it was like, well, okay, so, Nancy Botwin's gonna have five beats or five to seven scenes. This character's gonna have three. And we need a C story with Kevin Nealon. It's gonna be funny, and that'll have three. 

And then you realize, okay, well, every episode is about 20 scenes. And we've got 21 on the board. That seems like an episode. Sometimes it's that simple. You know, as you just sort of see the shape of what something is.

But sometimes it's also totally like for Kidding, it was about, what is that magic moment? Because there was a lot of magical realism in the show of like what is, when have we achieved something that feels like something that this show can do that no other show can do? What's that formula? 

And that was a combination of like of dark humor and frankly it was about you know, ideas for children repackaged for adults, you know. And when you could execute that as a half hour that was dark and funny and had like some magical, realistic moment in it, that was a Kidding episode, you know. And I think that you don't really learn what that is until you're, you've broken a couple and you understand what you expect and what you miss when you, when this episode doesn't have a thing that this episode did.

You know, because you want in TV every episode to get better. You know, you don't want the first episode to be better than the finale. You know, you want it to be constantly growing. And so you're constantly like, well, what, this doesn't feel as good as that previous episode. Why? What part of the equation have we not escalated? You know, It's a calculus. It's a math. 

Meg: And you're also doing a math of larger arcs in your shows, right? Doesn't Weeds and also Kidding, they have larger season arcs and then the small episodic, which you must also be breaking that larger one to start. 

Dave: A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, you're always keeping your eye on, I mean, every, everything worth writing is three dimensions of chess, right? I mean, it's like, you know, you're constantly trying to reward people on multiple levels so that when that finale hits, they're getting it, the satisfaction dramatically, comedically, emotionally, you know. And it takes building all those sort of setups. 

You know, I think you're hitting on something I've always believed, which is that like, you can teach good writing. Right. Because good writing is a math. It's about what not to do in a lot of ways. Right. It's if you do these things in this order, you'll have a three act story, you know.

But great writing is about voice, right? It's about how do you put on top of that formula, that math, that skeleton, like the muscle that makes it special, you know, and it's interesting, isn't it?

Meg: Well, it is and when, just to go back to Inside Out, then you have that big collaboration going and knowing that it's Kelsey, like it's, you have, you know, in, in features, it's going to be the animation or live action, it's going to be that director's voice right. And then you're kind of trying to, well it must be the same when you're a staff writer back in the day, working for this voice of Jenji, right?

Dave: Yeah. When I first interviewed at Pixar I was, I think, a number two on a show. And I immediately understood how that could port over to Pixar because it's your job to serve the king. I mean your job in TV no matter what level you're at, you kind of realize eventually, even if you're a playwright, even if you have the biggest ego in the world, like the ship only moves forward if you serve the captain, you know. Because you can only have one person's vision executed, you know.

And Pixar is a great example of that because you are there to serve the director. You are there to maximize their vision and you're there to generate ideas in service of that, which is something that I think makes TV writers very well suited for Pixar because you really are hired and have, and spend months at a time trying to build someone else's story in their way.

And the second as a TV writer you forget that, you know, it does cause trouble. I've seen it, you know, it's a part of the process. 

Lorien: And it works the other way too, right? Those of us who've spent time in feature animation and then moving into TV, even though we don't literally have some of the same like job descriptions, like we understand the environment.

So if you're in animation production or in a place, you can easily, you understand it in a way it's coded, but it's similar. 

Meg: Yeah. That, those skills will translate. Absolutely. 

Dave, it's been so great to have you here. But we, and we're gonna, I don't want to stop, but we're going to because we have to because I know you're busy. We always ask–

Lorien: Gardening. You're busy gardening. 

Meg: You're busy with your seeds. We always ask the same three questions at the end of every show. So I will start: what brings you the most joy when it comes to your work?

Dave: What's that sound the Mac email application makes when you, when it sends an email?

Lorien: The whoosh?

Dave: The whoosh. Like, I think the whoosh is a nice feeling of, you know, you've sent off your baby into the world to see if it survives. What brings me the most joy in writing? Was that the question? 

Meg: It could be writing. It could be showrunning. But let's say writing, cause we're talking about Pixar. 

Dave: I mean, I love this. I love talking to other writers. I love collaboration because there's, writing is by definition, a very isolating activity. And I think it took me graduating from college and sort of getting out into the world to understand, and I started as a playwright, which is increasingly isolating, is that you really do start enjoying the process more when you talk to people because it makes that moment where you hit a wall or find a problem, something to solve and something that is much feels much more solvable as a group. 

And I just love that vibe in a writer's room where you crack something that you know, it wasn't one person's idea. And I think that happens at Pixar a lot too. It's the building of a lot of half ideas until someone else's half idea pushes it over the edge and you have a great thing. And that's a really wonderful feeling. 

Meg: It's so fun. 

Lorien: All right, here's the second question. What pisses you off about being a writer?

Dave: Do we have enough time? Why would we even end with that? I could have started with that and given you 90 minutes. What pisses me off about being a writer? You know, it's something I said earlier, which is when people forget that it's personal. 

I think that's, I've had plenty of experiences where the relationship between yourself and the executive feels like it would be much stronger if there were just some basic etiquette things that everyone would kind of, subscribe to very early on. And when they don't, it can be rocky. And that I kind of, I enjoy when an executive understands that this is a personal endeavor and when they don't, I don't love it. So.

Lorien: I don't know what you're talking about. I love being ghosted. It’s amazing.

Dave: I've been ghosted too. It's no fun. So, yeah. 

Jeff: It feels like every executive should have to take a script, like actually get to pages and write one script all the way through and be developed so they can have the experience of what it's like to be on the other side.

Dave: Yeah, something I've said recently is, are we a bunch of doctors who work at a hospital run by patients? They are just sometimes where, you know, you're dealing with a note or something. And the note is like, if my doctor asked me, you know, like, where does it hurt? And I go, well, I went to WebMD and I'm going to tell you right now, it's spinal surgery. I need spinal surgery, you know.

And I don't know if I'm going to lose this metaphor in a second, but I feel like sometimes we're in the position where we've written plenty of scripts. And we're talking to people who haven't, but they're helpful because they're able to say, I don't, I didn't go to medical school. I don't know the exact procedure, but I do know where the pain is. And that's often better by the way. I don't know if I'd want to be given notes by other doctors all the time, it's nice to be able to say. 

But I think the right executives know how to talk about the pain. The right executives know how to say, I don't know that, I don't write scripts. I don't know what the actual procedure is, but I do know that my heart's not working, you know, and I'm dead. But there's something to as a writer also anticipating that. Knowing that it's not their job to tell you how to fix it. It's their job to tell you the wrong thing sometimes. And for you to say, okay, if they're pointing at this thing, they might be wrong about the exact specific thing they said, but look in that area. I bet there's something that needs an X-ray, you know.

Jeff: I think that's right. David, our last question is: if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self to give that Dave advice, what would you tell him? 

Dave: Wow. Don't look up. Sometimes I think people say, don't look down, and I think when you are a young writer, you can be told, don't look down, like it's scary. But don't look up, it's actually scarier up, because you don't have as far to fall as you do to climb.

And I think that that's something that, I'm glad I never looked up. You know, or maybe I did look up and that was, that's why I'm giving myself advice, but the it felt like if you knew how far you really had to climb and how much, how many more scripts you really had to write, you might not do it, you know, because it takes a long time and a lot of repetitive work to keep going.

And I think that can be scarier than looking at how far there is to fall sometimes. 

Meg: That is such good advice.

Lorien: So basically keep your eyes on the page. Don’t look up, don’t look down.

Dave: Yeah, oh 100%. I am a huge proponent of just do the work. What's the advice? Go do the work. Do the work. Like, there's too much talking about the work. Go do the work. 

Like, I've never written something that didn't advance my career an inch, you know, and I think, or teach me how to do something better. And I think that at the end of the day, like, it's the work. Do the work. 

Meg: Do the work. 

Dave: Do the work. 

Lorien: Do the work. We're going to put that on a t-shirt now. 

Dave: Oh, good.

Meg: Oh, we are. And we'll write, we'll put it in quotes, Dave Holstein. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Dave: Great.

Lorien: You'll be TSL famous. 

Dave: Wonderful. 

Meg: Well, This has been so fun.

Dave: Thanks, guys. Take care. 

Meg: Thanks so much to Dave. But we have one other thing. Don't go. We have one other thing to talk to you about that we're really excited about, which is all about you guys.

Lorien: We have been developing a special thing where we're going to have workshops and classes, and Meg and I are going to pop on and do live story workshops and questions and answers, and it's called TSL Workshops, and we're really excited about it. 

Meg: And we're doing this because you guys have asked for it. You guys are looking for more support. Not just from Lorien and I, but from experts in the field. So we've gone to our friends, they've recorded workshops for you guys. It's really just about giving you guys support and a base and inspiration for your writing. 

Lorien: So we're launching it soon, but if you want to get more information now, you can go to thescreenwritinglife.co and navigate to where it says TSL Workshops and then enter your email address and we'll keep you updated on when the launch is. 

Jeff: And we won't spam you, I promise. And I'll just quickly say as the voice of the emerging writer, I got to be on set during a lot of these workshops and it's really, obviously Meg and Lorien have a ton of brilliant things to say, but we also have Sheila Hanahan Taylor and Pat Friducci.

And I'm just like really proud of being associated with a brand that's putting out such valuable content. It's really great. And I am proud of the work we've done. So it'd be fun to share it with you all. Go share, go put your email in the mailing list and we won't spam you. 

Meg: Yay. 

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.