201 | Mail Bag + Thoughts About the Dreaded Act 2B

On today’s show, we answer your (excellent) questions. Among the topics we discuss are: How to lean into our best writer selves? How many drafts we “really” need to be taken seriously? How to improve readability in our work? Advice for sharing undeveloped ideas with executives? Deepening our midpoint and act 2B?

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life, I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna, and today we're going to do a mailbag episode. Meg and I will answer some questions that we've been collecting on our Facebook page and that have come in to our email.

Meg: But before we jump into our Q& A, we're going to be talking about our weeks, or what Lorien, how was your week?

Lorien: This week I wrote a pilot, a 15 page, 11 minute animation pilot for preschool. And why I gave my this, myself this assignment was because I wanted to, I thought it would be fun. It's short, right? Not that many pages, which when I'm trying to get back into the writing and get out of the, I'm writing a feature animation treatment or something, I was like, I'm just going to write a 15 page.

animated show. And what I worked really hard to do was not overcomplicate it, not overthink it. I came up with a very simple premise, a very simple format. This is how it begins, this is what the middle is, this is how it ends. And I just did it, which is The challenge for me, right? Because I'll spend a lot of time like that's not enough.

And this and not to say that it's not a brilliantly sophisticated, character driven, very entertaining 15 pages of preschool animation. But it was It felt very easy and fun because I hadn't put too much pressure on myself about it and I didn't overthink it which is incredibly hard for me. So I did that.

Good job. Me too. It was a barf draft, right? I know I have to go back in and rewrite it, but just in terms of getting something on the page, even if I know as I'm writing it It's not quite what it's going to be, which is what we talk about with barf drafts, but it's still a tricky thing to do.

It's not just an easy thing when we talk about just write the barf draft.

Meg: It's, it sounds so easy. It's not easy.

Lorien: It's just keeping going. I'm like, okay, I don't know what the, okay, just keep going. Okay, this character is going to say this and this is what happens and this weird thing happens.

And but it was a really good assignment and I recommend it. Something easy, and fun, and joyful, and silly, and brilliant, obvious. Of course, brilliant. Yes. Jeff, how was your week?

Jeff: So I had an interesting week. I'm working with a Broadway producer who is adapting a kind of classic literary tale that everyone who's listening knows and turning it into a musical.

And he has been struggling with some of the story elements and beats of the musical. He brought me on to help work through some of those beats and help him out with it. But what's very interesting is he's a friend and We've done a couple of these like story sessions together.

And on this most recent story session, he insisted on paying me and I had this really interesting instincts to want to resist that urge. But I also realized that just because someone is my friend and I'm helping them through some story consultation, doesn't mean I'm not entitled to that money.

And there's a very interesting and sometimes uncomfortable relationship that we can have with our creativity, feeling like we're entitled to or deserve. The value of our work, especially when we're working with people we know.

Meg: But it's funny because if you don't pay now it'll dice you on the end.

Let's say it's a mass smash hit and you've got no money. That's not going to work.

Jeff: That's right. Yeah. It's the realization that we're actually both more comfy with this deal moving forward.

Meg: Better, better to have a professional relationship.

Lorien: I guess a professional relationship, right? Meg, you and I have been working together in different capacities for a really long time.

And for me, our relationship, the end result of anything is always, I want us to be friends at the end of it.

Meg: Yeah.

Lorien: Whether the project goes or is successful and in every interaction we have, like the podcast, this is a business, right? Like we, and we have a contract.

Meg: Yeah.

Lorien: So that if anything comes up, we refer back to that contract, the agreements we made, which is what protects our friendship.

Meg: It does. And in our case, it's not a business that's making any money, but it's still a business.

Lorien: Technically it's a business and business decisions we make have to be together and, so we're right. We're, it's not a money making business. It's. They not for profit basically is what we're doing here a pro bono

Jeff: One of the things that's been interesting for my friend working with him is I think I mentioned but this musical He's adapting is based on a very well known classic literary tale and it's a story that this doors.

And because of that, he is feeling understandably very constrained by the like story beats and exact structure of the original work. But as I've been pushing him and trying to Transcribed Push his brain into new directions to adapt this story into a different medium, which is of course the medium of a musical.

He's been very resistant to trying these new approaches. And it's interesting. It's a reminder that, as writers, we're so rarely on the outside. We're so rarely taking on the role of consulting on someone else's work or giving notes or producing something. And it's such a valuable exercise for us as writers to sometimes, help someone else out on their work and their story.

Because we can empathize with the pain and the emotional attachment that we feel to the version that we think has to be the right version. And it's given me a lot of empathy for producers I've worked with, or folks who are giving me notes, who are trying to push my brain into a different direction, or maybe a, a container that fits an adaptation of a story, or whatever it might be, by being on the other side of it.

I've really enjoyed the process of seeing it from the other side, and I have empathy for this producer as he's really having to push his brain and stretch into trying something new. Basically, just as a writing exercise, put away every conception you have of this original story.

Try to instead chase the themes and the ideas and the emotional truth of the story. And use these story beats as pillars to see where it might take you. And we mapped out a totally different version, and he's gonna try that as like a blank page exercise just to see where it goes.

Meg: I hope he does it if only to learn why he wants to do the other version that can be as just as important so that as he's going down the different versions and someone asks him and go, Oh, I tried that. No, I did that. That's very powerful to be able to say, Yeah, we did try that. My week was good because Our draft is out to have somebody check for typos.

So that means you can't change it anymore and you just have to, it's that wonderful sweet spot between you're finished and you haven't gotten notes yet. And I realized that my brain, as soon as I hit send is going to, what is. What is Ed Solomon say? However many pages is how many minutes you have before your brain starts going, ah, shit.

But I actually think on this case, because it's such a big revamp, it's, they're either going to like it or they're not like it's so there's no detail that's going to switch it over. So I am. I'm very I'm really looking forward because I'm having this strange thing happen which never happens to me.

Which is I'm gonna have a week or even two with nothing due. Which, that's just not how I roll. And I'm gonna try something. My husband has a new philosophy which he calls extreme rest. And I'm gonna Not to be confused with depression. No, it's just resting. And it feels extreme to people like me who never rest, so sitting and reading a book all day, or watching television movies all day, or napping, will make me very uncomfortable.

But if I can think of it as an actual exercise, right? Like I'm This is your assignment. This is my assignment. I'm going to practice extreme rest. Let's see, you guys, what happens and what comes rolling down the pike here in two seconds. And I'm going to be like, sorry, can't exercise. Literally, sorry, I can't exercise or I can't exercise or rest.

And it's so funny this morning at breakfast, I looked at my husband. I'm like, Oh, look at this dog who needs a home and be adopted. And he goes, of course, this is what you're doing. Yeah. It's a chance to rest. So what is your brain doing? It wants to adopt a dog, which is the most have to do work that you could do, right?

I've been a child, so I'm not adopting the dog. I'm going to, I'm going to not, I'm going to, I'm looking at all my brain, trying to find ways to not rest. And there must be a reason. I think that when I rest, stuff comes up that I'm using the busyness to stay away from. So I'm just going to let it come up.

I'm just going to journal. And try this. I'm gonna try it.

Lorien: What's something like adopting a dog does is gives you structure so the endless rest, like the day, I don't know, what am I gonna do? This today is like incredibly anxiety inducing. So maybe there needs to be some structure, like a goal I'm gonna read three books.

I'm gonna go for four walks, or put some structure on it just as a...

Meg: maybe I should, should. I'm going to try doing nothing. I'm going to try. And if that just is way too uncomfortable, then I will put structure on it. And also, I feel like I'm literally tempting the universe right now. Saying it out loud.

Saying it out loud I'm going to do extreme rest because you know what's going to happen you guys. You're going to get a job offer. Yes, a job offer is going to come in that I can't turn down. Or a dog is literally going to run in my house that I have to now adopt or something's going to happen.

Lorien: Be very clear about what you're available for.

What are you available for? Books. Book recommendations. Yes. That's a good thing to afford.

Meg: What I don't want is any drama. That's all I don't want. I don't want a lot of emotional drama. I'm saying that to universe. Please give me a couple of weeks without emotional drama. We'll see if that happens, but that's what I, that was my week.

That's going to be my week next week. We'll, I'll let you in on how I did. So let's get to our mailbag. Yes. You're first, I think, Lorien.

Lorien: Yes. So one of the first questions that came in from Dylan Wilcox is what's a good goal for a week that will provide me with zero excuses? a certain amount of pages.

I know it varies from person to person but any thoughts or insights on this. So I have been doing these accountability workshops with writers and what I've learned is figure out what has worked for you in the past. There is this idea that if we just figure out the right thing to do we will crack the code.

And this usually involves reinventing ourselves into this fantasy version of the writer that we have never been. I imagine I'll be this. And so we're trying to figure out what that is. But look at what's worked for you in the past and figure out what that is. Literally, think about things where you've had success with your writing, where you've had success.

Specifics. When I wrote this script, this is what I needed, and this is what I did and what worked. And then write those down. Also, think about what are the things that get in your way? What are the things, the triggers, right? Oh, here comes an email from someone, so maybe you need to turn off your internet.

I've been doing that lately. I just shut down my internet for two hours, and then I don't get any emails. And it's amazing. So figure out what's worked for you in the past, and put together a plan. And you're right, some people need page count, some people need time that they've written, some people need to say at the end of the week, I'm going to email somebody this document, and if they don't, if I don't email it to them, I have to pay them 25.

Whatever it is. Figure out what's worked for you before, and set that very specific goal. The other piece is, once you have some momentum, figure out how to keep it. Because we can do oh that worked today, and then tomorrow all this stuff came up. Or the next day. So set the goals based on what's worked before.

That's what I'm doing. When have I written a pilot before? Oh, when I didn't overcomplicate it, I just sat my ass in the seat and I just wrote something. That's what works.

Meg: Do you think, Lorien, for emerging writers who for emerging writers who really maybe haven't written something fully yet or have never gotten to the end because they get pulled away or they haven't committed to themselves, do you feel like they could look at anything in their life that they finished and look at that?

Or does it need to only be writing?

Lorien: No, that's what I mean too. Like in my life, when I've been success, something I've felt accomplished about or successful or satisfied with. Other than writing, what has it been? And always, for me, it's I figure out what the thing is I want and I commit to it no matter what.

And it becomes the thing I am fairly aggressively obsessed with. When I decided I was moving to L. A. When I decided I was gonna become a teacher. I, that is what I'm doing. I have a clear narrative drive about it. That's what works for me. Look at your life. When were you successful at anything and what worked for you?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's an, it's a writing exercise. Think about the specific thing, describe what you were doing, how you felt, what the steps you took to do it, and then break that down to figure out how you can realistically fit that into your life. Then look at your week. How much time do you actually have? I there's a window of time on on Tuesdays between about four when my daughter goes to karate and when she comes home. That's two hours. Realistically though, that's when I finish a bunch of different stuff. That's not writing time for me. That's prepping for when she gets home, I'm going to make dinner, all that stuff.

So I can't just look at my calendar and be like, I have two hours here. Really realistically look at how much time you have and figure out what you can accomplish in that amount of time. And it's about...

Meg: and when you do write that down, expect that the survivor part of your brain will start raging forward about what an idiot you are and why are you writing and you're a dope and, because they won't like that you're writing it down, that you're getting real about it.

It's not going to like it at all. And just say thank you. I'm not going to die and keep going.

Lorien: And even if it's this week, I have 45 minutes and my goal is to write in my journal. For those 45 minutes. That is a realistic, accomplishable goal that makes you feel satisfied, that keeps you going. And so it, that, that's so important.

Because if we set ourselves up this month I'm going to write a feature. Some of us could, I don't know that I could, from beginning to end, sit down and write a whole feature in a month, because my time is not If I had, if I could write for 15 hours a day, I might be able to produce something that would resemble a feature, but that's not realistic.

So realistic, accomplishable goals, what's worked for you in the past. And once you get a little bit of momentum, keep it going 10 minutes a day. I'm going to do one page a day, whatever it is, it's yours and it's your process. That's it. That's my answer.

Meg: Great answer.

Lorien: Thank you for coming to my Lorien talk.

Lorien yells at you.

Meg: It's good. Or take her accountability workshop and she'll help you do it. Okay. The next, one of the next questions is it better to have a writer's group based on the same genre? And this is asked by Jillian. And I could actually go either direction. I think if I was writing something in a really specific genre, and I had four friends who also write that genre. I probably would be like, Hey, let's get together and we're all, we all happen to be writing in the same genre right now.

Right now the trick will be, you could start to unconsciously pull because you're all in the same genre. So there's a little danger. You can have really clear boundaries about your work, but I think it would be fun because I have found when I'm in rooms with people who are passionate about a genre, meaning they've seen every single one because they want to, they've seen the bad ones, they've seen the good ones.

They have a depth of knowledge that is hard to replicate. At a table. So I love that idea. I also, I don't think you have to though. I think if it happens that the stars turn and you happen to have those people, sure, do it. But I also find that people who don't write that genre are still audience members.

And sometimes that's a really helpful view. Which is, I get that, but I don't get it. Why did the devil like scream there? And they're like, and everybody who knows this genre is like, because of this, all of this, these genre tropes of, and you're like, okay, but it's not working because everybody has to be able to get.

What you're doing. So I do think in general it's very good to have multiple genre people in your writers group. Because what you're looking for is an audience. And more important than what genre they write in is how they give notes. That they give them in a supportive way. That they ask questions.

They're not putting their version onto you. There's other things that I would be more worried about than they're on the same genre. But if it happens to be that you have people, that would be fun too. That's helpful.

Lorien: I agree. What if I said I totally disagree? That would be fun. Let's go. But I don't.

Let's do that. Let's find one that we can debate on. Okay, good. So the next one comes from Dan. He says, I'm a playwright. I have a few screenplays and a load of plays. Can I use plays as a sample? Say yes, but my next question is as a sample for what? Are you trying to get a manager? Are you submitting to a showrunner somehow that's your friend and you're like, hey, I have this play.

If you are submitting for TV, you must also have TV pilots and a play, usually one, right? People will read plays in TV. Executives will read plays. Managers will read plays, but you really have to show that you know how to write TV. It's not going to be instead of. Now, we all hear the stories, right? I heard a story recently about this person was hired just on the basis of their playwriting, which is a specific thing, which means the rest of the room had the skills that were needed in other capacities.

And this person brought a very specific experience and voice to the project. Prepare yourself. Have script sorry, TV scripts ready to go, and you can have a play. I have a play that I sometimes trot out for people to read because it's broad comedy, which I have yet to write in TV or as a feature.

So it shows a different side of me. That's my answer. Meg, what do you think?

Meg: I agree. It's generally not used for features. I know that at Pixar, they will read plays. And they have brought playwrights in. A play, a young playwright asked me once how do I get my play to them?

And it unfortunately doesn't work that way. They find you from reviews and word of mouth. And, these are probably plays that have been put up and they will find you and because they're looking for somebody who understands character and thematic and dialogue and all those kinds of things.

But generally, I would say in features, a play is nice for them to see that you have a great ability to do dialogue, et cetera, but they're still going to ask you for a feature sample because you have it's it's a narrative, it's just different, dramatic storytelling. So they will look to see, do you know feature structure and how to write a feature?

If you do have a play, And you can figure out a way to put it up in some way. Do that. I have a play, it's an old play that I love that I want to rewrite, so I've pulled together a friend. I've asked her to direct it. She's got actor friends. We're going to do a table read. I'm going to edit it. I want to see if I can put it up somewhere, even if it's just rent a space somewhere and invite people to pay a dollar, right?

And then, yeah. And it's a, it's, But then it's out there in a way, and then I can say it was produced again after X many years, and then I'm getting, then it's a thing that someone might spark to, right? Plays are much easier than a TV show or a movie. Get it up on its feet in whatever capacity you can.

Then it becomes. It's exciting, and more people get involved.

I love that, and L is a great place to do that. There's little theaters everywhere.

Jeff: The other thing is, as you're generating your own work independently early in your career, make sure you're inviting critics and journalists to see your work, so that those reviews can get logged and documented.

It's helpful for my first feature that we got great reviews during our release window because people have found my movie because of that. So something to think about.

Meg: Or if it gets a really great review, they'll find you. Trust me. There's suddenly assistants are going to show up and then executives are going to show up.

That's the dream, but it can happen. It can happen. Okay. Next question. When breaking in, how many scripts is enough? Versus too many or slash too many and this is Mark's question it's a good question at first you're like have good ones. That's the most, Stupid answer and like annoying answer I would say in a practical way and I'm gonna answer features and Lorien you can answer television for a feature there, are you selling this as a spec?

Then really it's that script that's going out to market and that you're specing that script. And generally I think that's going to market is probably a high concept. That this meets that, and they're really buying the concept. And that you can write in that genre and et cetera. If it's really about having samples and features to get a manager, they're Who you are as a writer and how would they sell you?

What is your brand? What are you great at? So if you have samples and five samples, but they're all different genres, they won't know what to do with you. So let's say you have five and three are action movies and two are indie dramas, all in a basement. Not that you can't show that all, but probably the three action are where you're going to start.

So I would say for features, you need probably at least two, better three, and that they have the same voice and they're doing the same thing so they understand who you are in the marketplace as a writer. But remember when I say two or three, let's say. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say 10 drafts each instead of 15, that's 30 drafts, you know Which is why it takes some time guys It just takes time to get those scripts up and going and there's always The outlier who in college wrote a script and it sold for a million dollars and you all want to be that and I'm telling you don't Because you don't have your chops yet, you don't, you're not going to make it through the chopper and you, and the people who really work it out and work on their drafts and get their craft up and get those samples shining and have taken notes on 10 drafts three times, you're going to be better able to go into the business and go through that at a pro level.

I would say for features, and now it's Lorien's turn to talk TV, two to three that you have written at least. 10 drafts, full drafts, got notes each draft. Okay, Lorien.

Lorien: The reason I know that what Meg says is true about you don't want to be the person that sells your scripts first time out of the gate without any samples is because the very first time I pitched a TV show, literally the first time I was in a room pitching a TV show with Meg LeFou, we sold the TV show to a big network.

So there I am, never having written TV. I have no samples. I have no specs. I've just been hired to write a pilot with Meg to write a TV show. So we do it. And it didn't get picked up. And then I was like, Okay this is easy. I sold a show. I'm in. I'm a professional screenwriter. I got in the WGA.

I'm in. You know what happened next? A whole lot of fucking nothing. Because I didn't have samples. I didn't have Anything to send to a manager. I didn't have anything potential manager. I didn't have anything to send. The best thing that came out of that deal for me, other than writing with Meg and the whole experience was awesome.

Was that I got a lawyer out of it who helped me negotiate the deal midway through, right? So then I had to figure out what to do. Who was I writing all this stuff?

Meg: You're not going to jump that. Like you're still going to have to do those years, whether you go in the front or the back, right? Yeah, it's true.

Lorien: So for TV, it's the same answer, right? You're gonna be writing two, right? Three is better in the same sort of voice, the same sort of sphere, because you're still looking for a rep who's gonna sell you. If you get, if you know a showrunner and you don't have a rep and you get your script in front of them, they're probably gonna know what else you have to make sure you're not just a one off. The more the better, but those two or three that you're willing to be like, I love this, I believe in this, and it shows you, shows off who you are.

Meg: And in features, let's say you get that, let's say you have three samples. Ready to go and one of them won a contest and it got you some manager called and they're never going to read all three, but they like that you have them.

Maybe they're going to have their assistant read them and cover them, but they read a script. They're like, wow, this is good. And you have two more. And then they read the log lines of your other two and they see, they're Okay. Interesting. You're a thinker. You have great ideas. I can't sell these. What else?

So it's not even just having those two samples or three samples. You are going to end up in a meeting where they say, what are you working on now? What are you thinking about? What stories are you pondering? And it's not, you don't necessarily have to have a full pitch. You have to have a conversational story.

If you don't understand what I'm saying, it's I just, I was, my aunt had this thing happen to her and I just can't stop thinking about it. And I think it could actually maybe make an incredible movie and it would, the movie would have to change like this. And it would be about this woman and she's up against this and she doesn't know that.

And thematically I emotionally love it because I love this question that's in there. And I think there'd be great set pieces and great part for a writer, actress. And if you've hooked them emotionally and you've hooked them in terms of The plot concept, they probably are going to want to represent you because they can put you in a room, and you can, they can have someone read these samples, she's got a great pitch.

You as a producer are going to want to work with her on this is right up your alley, you're going to love this idea she's got, and they're going to put you with, Big producer who's now going to mentor you and help you, so all of that is springing out of your story brain. Having some other pots boiling.

And you know that you do, you guys. We all have a million pots boiling in our head. It's just a matter of once you get those samples, it's not I handed them to an agent and now he gets me my career. It doesn't work like that. They, you have to keep the, be the one who's generating all the time.

Which you should want to. You're a writer. It's happening anyway. That, yeah, go.

Jeff: And piggybacking off that excellent point it's a reminder to all of you who are listening, you're writers, right? So obviously you're thinking of ideas all the time and things are sparking in your brain.

But it's so important as that's happening that you're actually writing this stuff down. Maybe it's a notes app in your phone, maybe it's a voice memo, but that stuff will fade out of your head. And as you're heading to a meeting, look at some of those ideas and try to run them through the paces of a three act story.

You don't have to have something totally developed, but having important, just like referential story beats as you're talking through these ideas is gonna be so helpful as you're taking these meetings. That's one thing I've been noticing lately is, having at least something substantial when it comes to these ideas will be helpful as you're taking new things.

Meg: you're out for a drink with your friend, be like, okay, listen, give me 10 minutes, I've got this idea percolating, I want to say it out loud.

And watch with their eyes go, That's what the agent's going to do. You do want to, you do want to talk it out a little bit. So it's not a pitch, but you got it so that you know what you're saying. You know what you're interested in. You know. I'm, I've got to the point where I don't have to practice anymore because I have been in so many of these rooms that my brain will just start doing it, and sometimes they flub completely, but and then I don't care because then maybe I don't like that idea so much but this is it's samples and your pots that are boiling, and that can you articulate it.

What's so interesting about it, both from a business commercial angle, and you don't have to use those words, let's get real. Are there set pieces? Do you understand that? And then but most importantly, why you love it and what emotionally you're pulling up there.

Lorien: I want to ask this next question, because I think it refers back to the other question and my delightful story.

I'd love to get your take on meritocracy versus it's who you know, and this comes from Nick. Meg, why did you work with me?

Meg: No, yeah, it does go back.

I was at Pixar, and I met this amazing human named Lorien, who was on our team. And I would have sunk like a stone at Pixar without Lorienn is the truth.

I didn't know what the fuck was going on. And what I was meeting people constantly and I'm like, we don't have a script. Why am I meeting an editing coordinator? And I would go, let me explain it to you. This is how animation works. But I also knew from working with Lorienn creatively that she, I could, and I could tell that she understood story.

And that you, Lorien, understood story in a really deep way, and so I remember asking you, I had a, I had an inkling, I was like, you're a writer, right? Didn't I? Didn't I?

Lorien: Yeah, you said tell me about you or something. I said I used to be a playwright. And you got mad. You were like, what? You used to be?

And then you asked me to send you things that I'd written.

Meg: And that's from, because of the way, Lorien, you spoke about story, the way you spoke about the story that we were working on, the way that you spoke about other stories at Pixar, the way you spoke about stories in general. It made me want to see, okay.

Does this translate to the page? And it did. And when I find writers that I really do think, wow, they have something that is special, I will, let's just use this in a broader term, pass their script around, or hand it out, or call my agent, which I do very rarely, and say, I never do this, but somebody over there should read this person.

They may not be ready for that level yet, but sometimes they are, sometimes they're not. Don't do it often because A, then your word doesn't hold much. It has to be that I think this widget fits that widget. This person, my agent will get this person. Cause he won't get everybody, he has his own stuff.

But all, pretty much, so how did those scripts get to me for me to do that? Some are contest winners. I'm working with some contest winners right now. And honestly, usually I'm very much one read and that's it. But with these, this team, I'm like, okay, tell me how you're going to do it.

And so we just, we're keeping going. Cause I'm just like, you could do this. You could do this. You can make this jump. I believe that they can make the jump. So it's contests, and it is word of mouth, like any job. I understand everyone's Hollywood. But I was in advertising, I worked as a cocktail waitress, and I've done a lot of things in my life.

I got every job by word of mouth. It is how jobs work so that is part of Hollywood. It is who you know, the way that everything is who you know, right? If you're young and emerging it probably is easier for you because you should go get in, you should go get internships to learn and to meet people and start your web of six degrees separation because that's how it works.

So internships are the easiest way to do it, I think. Get a job in the industry if you can, doing anything, I would think and then, because that's just how every business works. If you're not young or you're not in L. A. I do think contests happen. I do think six degrees of separation. We had the Naveed talked about that writer who cousins, friends, brother worked as an assistant at some agency and he was ready.

He had those samples and he was ready and it happened. So it can happen but I don't know that it is a meritocracy in the purest sense because is there a business in Is there really a business that's a meritocracy? I wish it was. I really wish it was. But I also believe, and I have said this to graduating people this year, and I do believe it in my whole heart.

If what you write is really great, we will find you. We're gonna find you. Now. Does that mean we're gonna make it? No, not necessarily, because that's all about business and widgets and what makes money and blah blah blah. But they'll find you. They will find you if you've got that clear voice and you can do all the things we talk about on this show.

Voice, theme, craft, outside in, you understand, you can talk people will find you. And they may not find you on your first script, and they may not find you on your second script. It takes some time to get that skill level built. But I really do believe in my heart we will find you.

Lorien: Yeah. I, met a writer, she was my mentee at CineStory, and I liked her script.

I'm not sure if it was during the virtual one we did during the pandemic or not, but I eventually met her at CineStory in person. I really like her. We really hit it off. I liked her writing. And then we saw each other again at AFF. And, she's just become one of my really good friends, and we chat all the time about random things.

I've never read her again, right? It was just that one time at Cinestory I read her, and then I really liked her, and this was years ago. Yesterday, last night, she texted me, I have a script, I need to do a revision really fast, will you read it? And I was like, okay! So I read it last night. She's such a good writer.

Her name is Britt, and she's one of my very favorite people. Reading this script, I got a little jealous at how beautifully she writes visual action lines that have a point of view, that have tone and edge, and I was like, oh my god, right? Like any script, I'll have notes, so I talked to her this morning, and I talked her through my notes and everything, but, it's the kind of script I was reading where I was like, I need to see her rewrite this.

Because if it's as good as I think it can be with some reshaping, I want to share this with someone, or I'm going to set this up to run myself, or with her, or because it is, it's that good, right? And I like her so much, but we randomly met at a contest she showed up for at a retreat, but, and over the years, so it's just this is what we mean by finding your people.

Zenith's story is designed to attract writers who are at a point in their career where they want development help from the mentors. This is a place where you put yourself out there, you submit a script, and then hopefully you get paired with mentors who are going to help you. And that's what that was.

Anyway ...

Meg: The context is that kind of building, growing, blow it up, can you go again, which I want to say in terms of this question It also is the onus is on the writer in terms of I have, I can't tell you the number of writers I have said I'll take a read never sent it to me or I give them notes and I say, you know What if you want to come back and send me a paragraph or a page about how you're gonna attack this?

Never ever come back. And part of the reason I love the team I'm working with right now is because, boy, they come back in four days. And they are understanding how to keep me engaged and saying things like, and we'll go again, and they'll go again, and they'll go again, and they're staying in. Which you, I have to know that you can do that.

If you can't do it with me, how are you gonna do it with these big hotshot people who are gonna be much harder than I'm being, right? Part of it is, Most people don't come back to me and ask again. Most people don't ever send me anything again. And by the way, no judgment. Maybe that wasn't the script you wanted to do anymore, whatever.

But it's not gonna be the thing that I'm out there yeah. Because you're not up for it. You're not up for that. That level of go again, and like this team is putting themselves out there. They're saying, does this work? We understood that. Are we getting it? Like it's a vulnerable thing to do, right?

They're not just handing me something. This is perfect. Go give it to somebody. That's not what they're doing. They're trying, like you said, Lorienann, they're trying to become better. They're trying to understand the concept of a TV engine and they're working really hard to get there because I know once they get it, they're such good writers, it's just going to be great.

It's great. Yes. So it is, when you do get those mentors, you have that opportunity. It is about you coming back and you engaging me because I'm not gonna do the work for you. I'm no offense, but I'm not gonna cause I got all my own stuff to do. But truth is, there's been people on our Patreon who've pitched ideas that I've thought, that's a really fucking good idea.

You are really charming. You're funny. You're interesting, I would really like to see what happens here. It does just spark sometimes, but I, there is somebody that I'm watching in the chat who I'm thinking, she's smart. She's giving really good advice. She's, she knows what she's doing. And I might just reach out and ask her if she wants, if she has something I can read because she, I can tell from the chat going by.

She knows. She gets it. Again, not just in terms of a click with me, that I feel like her thinking is really good. Not that there aren't other people too, but it's consistent. It's consistent. It's been consi like now we're talking time, right? Like you talked about, Lorraine. It's consistent. Over and over, she is there.

Over and over, she's participating, and she's giving really good insights, right? The truth.

Lorien: I think that's great, because it's similar to, my story. You and I met. I moved to LA for a different job, but then, we went and sold that show together. And if we hadn't have done that, if you hadn't have taken a chance on me and believed in me it is who you know.

I know you. You Like, I got to believe in myself as a writer, and then I had to figure shit out on my own, and I've had this whole crazy journey, but That's So it's both, but yeah, the word meritocracy is always a little iffy for me because it's so subjective, art.

Meg: I don't know if there is a business that's, I don't think that's, that and business don't go together, but Yeah, I agree.

Next question. Since readability is critical, what tips or tricks are there to making a script more readable? Shorter action lines, specific technical classes or workshops, iterations, great editor, and this is from Charlene. Go ahead, Lorraine. You're nodding like she's ready. She's ready to go. I'm just saying yes.

Lorien: To all that!

Meg: Not all that, yes. Readability is is, yes, I do believe in, I personally believe in white space. But you could show me a script, I'm sure, that is dense, but so readable. Because of the voice. I think readability is another way of saying the voice on the page. On one hand, on one bucket, it's the voice on the page.

And how do you articulate your voice? You write a lot, I'm sorry to say, quantity over quality. You just write and write and it'll start emerging. And how you lay it out on the page. And how you use dashes or how you use italics or how you keep white space or choose when not to, how you focus the story, are you having me look at her or have you taken me out and it's a point of view from the woods all of a sudden, right?

Like it's storytelling. It's also readability that you, it's, you've engaged me. It's the way if we were around the fire, great verbal storyteller, right? Isn't there nothing better than a great verbal storyteller and how they shape the story? All of that is readability. I think if you're getting a note, about that, what I would suggest is you start reading scripts.

There might be something your brain isn't grokking, which is fine because we all have something. So go get scripts within your genre and watch how the different voices are laying them out. I'm not, maybe as a writing exercise copy one. To see what does that look like in my script if I copy that style to get your brain over to it But you will eventually need to find your own but I think the best way to understand readability is to read the prose scripts and how they lay things out and People are different ways like Emma Thompson loves Beautifully poetic, meaning word choice, action lines.

That in five words, you've told me so much because of the words you chose. That's one kind of writer. Another kind of writer, it's the dialogue. It's just so sparkling that I can, I don't even need to look at, who said what. And myself, I'm very spare on the page. Because my, I love scripts that read fast.

This is probably because I was a producer who had to read ten weeks. Weekend right and so I don't want anything to slow down the read I want you to just fly through the script and have an experience. I'm not a poet. I love poetry. I'm not a poet So I do it all with behavior. I do it almost like a I'm showing the camera, right?

She whips around kind of stuff. But that's how I do it because that's just how it comes out of me, and having read so many scripts. Lorien, what's your thoughts on readability?

Lorien: If you look at if I get a script to read, the very first thing I do is see how many pages it is. I might be the only one who has it, but if you send me what you say in an hour.

Meg: Oh no, there's not an executive or a producer in town. Yes, everybody looks.

Lorien: But I'm looking at TV. If you tell me it's a half hour and you send me a 40 page script, I'm like, No, right away I know that you don't know what a half hour is. Because I want a page, I want a half hour script that's 33 pages and under.

Maybe even including the title page count, right? And for an hour, I don't want anything over 60 pages. I really don't. 59, 60 pages. That feels okay, cause that's a dense script, like an hour. I'm, then I'm also going to look at the first page. Is there any dialogue on the first page? And what does the white space look like?

Because this sets the tone of what my reading experience is going to be. If it's like huge chunks of action, like I'll read it. I'm not gonna not read it. But right away, I there's bias there for me. Meg, I want a fast read. I want an enjoyable read. I want to be so caught up in it that when it ends, I'm like, Ah, I want more!

If it's, And sometimes I read scripts on my computer, so it needs to be able to, not just seem like a wall of gray text coming at me. So part of the user experience you have to think about and I for readability, just in terms of, Those are the things that I look for right off the bat.

So those are the things I'm trying to figure out when I'm writing too. I don't worry about that when I do my first couple of drafts, but then I spend a lot of time crafting what that first page looks and feels like. Just in terms of, it's going to have some short action lines, maybe one with two or three sentences, at least some dialogue exchange there.

So that I say I know what I'm doing. I'm not just writing a pastoral imagery festival.

Meg: And let's say, and let's say you are a writer who really doesn't. Write that way. That is not your voice. Your voice is dense. That's okay too, but do know your story better be fuckin fire.

Lorien: Yeah, if I'm sucked in I'm not gonna not read it.

So I'll start reading it, but if I'm like, oh my god.

Meg: You're sucked in? It does not matter. It doesn't matter because the story's so good, I have to keep turning the pages. It's when I don't have to keep turning the pages and I'm like, Oh my god, this is so dense. And it's 20 pages too long and I really want to go watch American Idol.

Whatever, right? It's too much. Yeah. I haven't had that experience in a while, thank God. I also would say, if you're that kind of writer, what I would do, if I were you, is I would go read on the page those kinds of writers. I would read, I haven't read Charlie Kaufman, I don't think, on the page, but I'm gonna guess.

From his genius and the way his brain works. Watch how he works. Go find those writers that do write in that dense way, or do write in their own voices. I'm not saying do what they do. They do what they do. But it'll help your brain understand how to find your own style to make it readable. But it all comes down to, is this story rockin man?

I do think that the note about white space or readability is a good note. But there's something hiding under that note. Which is a much bigger fish that you've got to go deal with. Which is, the story is not captivating them. It's just not. Maybe deal with that and readability and whitespace at the same time.

Okay. For people who are new to screenwriting and want to follow a structure of an existing screenplay, Is it a worthwhile exercise to map out the scenes of the movie we know and then try to hit certain marks with our own story? Or do you have a better way to do this? I think, Sarah, this is from Sarah.

Sarah, I think that's a great idea. As a writing exercise, not as like I'm handing this script in, as a writing exercise, please do that. I think it's super smart. If you take that structure, stick it on top of your script, and you're gonna find things to, that you are gonna learn about structure, because structure is character movement.

The other exercise I would give you is, who is the movie star? That you would love to have in your movie. Now, I'm not casting, so let's say you say Harrison Ford when he was young, that's fine. We're not casting him. Who is the kind of, embodies your character, and they have to be a movie star to do this exercise.

And then, watch three of their movies where they're the lead, they can't be the side character. And chart that character's movement, which is structure, by the way. How do we meet them? What do they believe about the world? What do they believe about themselves? What do they think about the inciting incident?

What's their end of act one goal, their plan, their want, their conflict, the stakes? What do they think about those stakes? What do they think about themselves? Where are they at the midpoint? Generally doesn't line up. Where are they at the end of act two? What's their transformation? Do they transform?

Where are they in the climax? And then take that pattern and put that on top of your script. Thank you very much. Because that's a character movement creating structure. So I would do both. If I were you, I'd do the genre version the pure plot, outside in, I love this movie and its structure, stick it on yours and see what happens, and then I would do a character version.

Because it might be slightly different and give you different things. So that's what I would do.

Lorien: I think that's great. You gave me one of those exercises. You're like, what movies do you love? What is the tone? What's the tone comp for the movie that you're writing? And then you're like, okay, go watch that movie and then break it down.

Where is it? Literally stop the timer 10 minutes. What happens? Stop the timer 20 minutes. What happens? Like it was these major, it was really useful. And what it did is it reinforced by natural we have structure in us, right? It's how we live our lives. Like how Billy Murnit had that great quote it's an organic way our stories unfold is structure, as we're the character.

And so it, it articulated it in this really beautiful way that it wasn't just an emotional, I just know this kind of way. It was like, Oh, I can intellectualize this too. And operate on both those.

Meg: Yeah, see it. And Sarah, if you get halfway through and you're like, Ah, this isn't working. It's gone off the tracks.

It doesn't fit mine at all. Just keep going. Cause maybe, yeah, maybe the middle. Midpoints generally don't line up the same. Just get to the third act to see if it does crack back in and show you something that you needed to see and then you can revamp, right? So just, yeah, give it a try. It's a great exercise.

Jeff: The other thing this does, which is incredibly valuable, is it will show you where and what your story is lacking compared to examples that are really working well. I'm going to shout out friend of the show, Pat Verducci, real quick, because she has a workshop all about this on TSL Workshops, where she talks through how mapping out the beats of your story can really not only help identify what's working in your story, but often more importantly, that kind of skeleton key as to what your story is probably missing.

Lorien: What is the protocol for reaching out to a company that requested materials? We've gotten lots of different answers from this from different people. There's some accepted time frame that people talk about. This is if hey X production company reaches out to you and says, we'd love to read you.

You send them something. And then the question is, when do I follow up if I haven't heard back? Honestly, I don't know the answer. This is where I would ask my rep and have them do it. I think it's isn't it like four weeks you wait? And then you say, Hey,

Meg: Yeah, I wouldn't bother them before three weeks.

And then at three weeks, I would just be like, Checking in on the script that I sent. And then I'd wait two weeks. And then checking in again on that script I sent in May. Let me know if you need anything else. Then I'd wait another week. And then I'd check it again, and then I'd say they're not reading it.

Hate to say. Hate to say. They're not reading it. Go ahead.

Jeff: Another thing I've started doing, which I've found is helpful when working with someone who requests my material is, I'll often end the email by saying something like, I know you're probably slammed right now. I would be happy to give you a courtesy check in four weeks if I haven't heard back on this.

I'm also happy to let you get back to me. Let me know what works best. It takes the pressure off of them to have to respond, and it gives you a reason to follow up after having checked with them.

Meg: That's good. That's good. This is a question from Heidi. When someone asks you about the theme, how do you give short, concrete answer instead of end up vomiting the whole A and B storylines?

It's so easy to just start telling the story. And it's funny cause sometimes Lori and I are going to ask you the opposite. We're going to be like, I don't want to hear the theme anymore. Just tell me the plot. You're not telling me any plot. So there's two sides to this coin, right? Some people can only talk about the emotionality and never tell us anything about a plot.

And some people only talk plot. And we're like wait, what is this about emotionally? Why do I care? So in terms of your specific question, I think it's really talking to me about number one, if you're talking to me about theme, I want to know first, why is it personal to you? So that's going to start sinking me into storytelling, right?

When I was 10 years old. My dad did this and the family reacted this way and ever since I've been the mom or whatever, right? I'm like, oh wow, okay And so I want to talk about being the mom at 10 years old and blah blah blah, whatever And then I want you to say so I have a character and they're gonna experience this by starting here And then their end of act two is this, and they end up here.

To me, there's three major places that a character theme is really gonna hit. Where they start, what they realize about themselves and the world at the end of act two. Where they are at the end, and how that character expresses that thematic. And that's all I want to know. And then they should be asking you about the plot.

So that's how I would do it. What about you, Lorien?

Lorien: For TV, I want to know what the show is. Tell me what the engine of the show is. This is a story about a woman who is trying to solve the mystery of where her mother went. While she's also working as a cleaner at X office of the guy she suspects of having murdered her mother, right?

And what this is about for me is, and then telling the story about, my mom abandoned the family and I've been obsessed with it. So I want to know what the show is if it's a TV show first. If you tell me all the emotional stuff first I need to know what the show is if it's a TV show.

You got to tell me what the engine of the show is first. And it's really hard. When we're writing pilots to have a connection with that sometimes if it's not a procedural because we get very caught up when we're writing pilots about the backstory and the emotion and the personal connection. So for me, it's the opposite on a TV show.

Meg: What's the process for working with IP in terms of getting rights? That could be a book. Now for a novel, it's pretty easy. You look at who published the book, the publisher, you call the publisher, you ask about who represents the author. They'll send you to a department. That department will say, look it up.

And they'll say, this author is represented by this person at this agency. You call them and you talk to them about, are the rights available? They will say yes or no. They say no. You can ask, when did the rights come up? They might tell you they might not. And if they say yes. Then you can, if you're ready, be ready to pitch to the author, et cetera.

Some authors absolutely do not sell them at all. There's all kinds of different things that could happen. So that's pretty basic. And then Rebecca's asking about a thin act two, which, God, haven't we all been there, Rebecca? We've all been there, that old thin act two. And how do you break up Act 2 into manageable chunks, right?

So maybe fatten it out, or if you're like me and you've got way too much stuff in this soup, you gotta thin it out. I personally, like I said, structure is character movement, but after that, I always look at 2A, midpoint, 2B, end of Act 2. So I have that as my, Structure and what to I like personally.

I like the 2a of fun and games from save the cat. I love that phrase so i'm really looking at how to make that fun as they confront stuff and then the midpoint what those giant shifts to be you're kicking their ass. It's so hard It's so hard So what i'm trying to say to you is to act two to thicken it up Or to break it into manageable chunks is to go to the character.

What is happening to the character? How are you beating them up what's their relationship what's happening in the relationships. There's so much that has to be evolving and moving that once your brain kind of groks all that has to happen in act two, you're going to be like, Oh my God, I don't have enough pages or so much.

Now, if you don't have a lot, maybe it's because you don't have enough of a story and you only have a two act idea. So that can also be a sign if you've got a two act idea. And if that's the case, it's more like a short and then you've got to really look at your act three and are you really taking this person on a big enough journey?

Lorien: I have a question. So I want to talk about this With all of us. I have this theory, and I haven't investigated it at all, but it's something I've been thinking about. In Act 2A which is the plot, I want this thing, these are the things I'm going to go after doing it. Go after to get it, sorry. So everything, there's a decision and a choice in every single scene, right?

Fun and games, every choice. You get to the midpoint, stakes raise. So then in 2B, are we then seeing the consequences of all those choices and how they are blowing back?

Meg: Sometimes, but more likely, whatever was standing in conflict to you now is saying, Oh, you're a formidable flow, or I'm going to, it's amping up the opposition, whatever that is, is now amping to such a point that it's going to break you because it is going to break you at the end of act two.

It's going to break you. So it's more because you've stayed in the fight that long, it's going to really come out clobbering now. But it could be, you could say these are the consequences of your actions.

Lorien: It's cumulative, right? Sure. These are all the choices you've made, so maybe look at making sure your character is making active choices.

Meg: Good point.

Lorien: So that in Act 2B, so that in Act 2B. No, sorry, in Act 2A, so in Act 2B, you have, there are consequences to those actions, that the opposition gets stronger.

Meg: I find that when people have flat Act 2s, it's because they don't have a midpoint shift and their 2Bs are just the same as 2A. So it doesn't feel like an escalation of any kind.

And you decide what the escalation is. I don't know. What, what could be escalating? Is it just the relationship that's escalating? Is it the plot and the relationship? I don't know. Is it, are they breaking apart? Are they coming together? So many things that could be happening, right? And if your midpoint's a really great midpoint, it should shift.

So dramatically that you're almost like, oh my God this just turned into a roller coaster, right? Like you should feel that shift at a great with a great midpoint.

Jeff: And it gets one way. One thing that helps me in terms of thinking about midpoints in Act 2B is I feel like at the midpoint there's often this sense that your protagonist is dead.

Doubling down, whatever step they took to cross the threshold into act to whatever's driving them, whatever's driving their decisions and at the midpoint, it's like they're sliding all of their poker chips in the middle of the table. And suddenly there's an enhanced risk associated with the choices that they're making.

Things feel much more dangerous and scary. Maybe the sense of fun that was driving them at the beginning of this kind of metaphorical poker game is gone and all of their chips are in there. And things have gotten, the stakes have been raised.

Meg: Yeah, exactly. There's a reason that a midpoint feels like a no going back now.

You're gonna, you're all in. You're all in. Now, if you're like in a disaster movie, like Inside Out, That I have to keep, as a writer, ramping that disaster, but that disaster is getting worse because, like Dorian's saying, of all the shit that happened in 2A, that now the fucking shit is hitting the fan, right?

But Joy is doubling down constantly. But here's the trick. As much as she's doubling down, she's also changing underneath that double down. So there's the double down is the fear that she started with, right? Of, I can't let sadness get next to Riley, which is causing all of these problems. And so she's doubling down on that, but she is shifting and to be, she's really starting to understand now from all that's happened, that sadness is valuable.

They've gotten closer. They've had intimate moments. They've realized they have the same favorite memory. Sadness has solved problems that joy can't. So all of that is calibrating underneath that double down, right? So that evolution, otherwise it's static and you're going to get somebody doing the same thing until I always say, Let's say End of Act 2 is page 90 in a script, because I don't care how long your script is, for some reason they're always at 90, these End of Act 2s.

At 70, at 80, 85. You throw so much at your main character. You throw at them the worst thing they were afraid of happening in Act 1. It's gonna happen. And under that intense pressure, they revert back to who they were in Act 1 and make that bad choice again. She pushes sadness out of the tube. 1. I don't think she would have done that.

And all of Act Two, because she's changing. But now, under the pressure of the whole world coming down, and Riley running away, she reverts to what kept her safe in Act One. And because she does that, she's showing the universe, she's not changed. It's looking like she's changing, but she hasn't deeply changed enough.

So guess where she's going? All the way to the dump, and you strip her of everything that she had in Act 1. Everything. She doesn't have the relationship with Sadness. She doesn't have Riley. She has no access to Riley. She has to face that she completely fucked this up. And there is a sense of Riley's stakes are very high, right?

Riley's in a dangerous situation right now. So you strip him. And in that stripping is where That now the new consciousness can rise up, right? That 70, that 85 80 moment, to me, I call it the mistake. Because they are doubling down in the midpoint, but they're also shifting, right? That relationship with sadness at the midpoint has shifted.

Because they started apart. So at the midpoint, they're coming together. Now, if you start them together, at the midpoint, they're gonna come apart, right? And that's gonna cause all kinds of problems, right? So that I would say just in terms of layering up your act two and really look at it and all of everything we're talking about is the character's movement and the, and what is the character's movement?

The theme. What is this about? And she can't realize it and the audience can't realize it till the end of act two. So now in terms of B storylines, I guess we'll just say really quickly and features and you can talk about a TV B storylines. Just the way I like B storylines is they're as long as they meet the A storyline at some point, right?

It has to be in the movie for a reason to hit the main plotline at some point. Otherwise, I don't know why it's in there and trust me when they can't. Give you all the days of shooting. It's gonna get picked out, right? It has to earn its way in by shifting the main plot line at some point. Lorraine, what do you think about these storylines for TV?

Lorien: In a half hour episodic comedy, you got an ABC storyline, and they all have to be operating on the same theme. So that there's a, so the whole episode feels like a conversation about that thing. I think Schitt's Creek is such a great example of that. I think Cheers operated in that way. The Love Boat, which I don't know why I'm back in the Love Boat.

I am obsessed with the Love Boat. When you look at Love Boat episodes, the amount of guest stars they had, like everyone was on the Love Boat, everywhere.

Who doesn't love the Love boat? Talk about captain fashion shows. Hello!

Meg: We are really dating ourselves right now.

Lorien: No, I love the love boat unabashedly unashamedly.

I am into the Love Boat but so even if it's a, an episodic, romantic comedy one hour. So all the storylines I need to come back to some kind of similar character movement for all the characters. That's my, so similar, same, totally different, same, totally different.

Meg: Yes, of course, in a feature, everything is on the same theme.

Yes, it's illuminating that theme in a different way. Usually in a B storyline, probably a lighter way. A little bit lighter.

Lorien: In a procedural. whatever the case of the week is, might be reflected somewhat in like the personal lives of the detectives. There's always some reflection, there's reflections happening around those ABC stories.

Are you saying Modern Family is better than The Love Boat? Is that what you're saying?

Meg: It might be, Lorien. It might be. I have to say.

Lorien: All right. Thank you everyone for sending in questions. We love to hear from you about what's on your mind and it always sparks great conversations and sometimes we even get great episode ideas out of these.

So thank you everyone. We'd love to hear from you.

Meg: And if you'd like us to answer your question directly, face to face, come over to the Patreon, we have a Q& A every month where you can ask us directly and we'll have a conversation with you and be able to get into a little bit more detail about specifically what's going on with you and maybe what's the question under the question and maybe help you out a little bit more.

Jeff: And actually Meg, we are now going to direct our listeners to TSL Workshops , which is the upgraded version of our Patreon. We would love to see you over there. We launched a couple of weeks ago and it's just been an amazing launch. And we're really excited about what we're doing. So everything Meg said is true, but we're going to direct you to TSL Workshops .

To get there, you go to TSL Workshops . circle. so and I will link that in the description below.

Lorien: And remember you are not alone and keep writing.