76 | How To GIVE Great Notes On Writing

Being a successful creative is all about give and take, and ANYONE who’s gotten feedback knows that paying it forward is an essential part of finding success in this business. But HOW do we give great notes? We dive into it today!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey lifers, quick announcement before we dive into today's show. You may notice that this is dropping into your feed on a Thursday, whereas these shows normally drop into your feed on Sunday. That is because we are officially moving our show release date to Thursdays. So, nothing is changing about the show, it's still the show you know and love, but make sure you're subscribed because new episodes will now be dropping in on Thursdays.

That is all. Enjoy the show. 

Meg: Hey! Welcome to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. 

Meg: We are professional screenwriters. We've worked together as a team and separately. We've worked on studio and indie films, live action and animation, from my work on Inside Out and Captain Marvel. 

Lorien: To my work in Pixar's Story Department on Up, Brave, and Inside Out.

We are here to share our insights on the craft of screenwriting and also the life. How to not only survive the ups and downs, but thrive. We want to help you become the best screenwriter you can be, and to reassure you that you are not alone on this journey. 

Meg: Hey guys, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. Today we're talking about how to help others, or yourself, find the heart of the story you're trying to tell. 

Lorien: We had a listener write in with a question and they were asking for some help on how to give constructive notes in a writer's group and that inspired this week's topic. 

Meg: But before our topic, we're going to talk about our weeks or what we call adventures in screenwriting. Lorien, how was your week? 

Lorien: It was good. I had some good news at the top of the week, which is that the show, Tab Time, that I worked on last summer, this summer? Last summer. What year is it? One received an honor from American Library Association for excellence in early learning digital media, which is really cool. We were in the same category honored along with Fred Rogers' company who did a program and Sesame Street, so it felt really exciting to be in that company. 

Meg: Esteemed company. Yes. 

Lorien: Yes, that was what we were trying to accomplish is make a show like a modern day, Mr. Rogers that had that sort of inclusive, loving presence with Tabitha Brown.

So that felt really fun and good. And then most of the time I've been spending rewriting on this script that I wrote a while ago, and I mentioned it on the last week's episode as well. Because it's our topic, I just want to talk a little bit about how I think I let the very well-intentioned note givers allow me to stray from what I was originally trying to do.

Meg: Yeah. 

Lorien: And I think part of that for me, you know, we talk on the show a lot about how to give notes, how to take notes, and that you have to be, have a really clear sense of what it is you're writing about, who your characters are, and you have to believe in them and fight for them. And I gave that up really quickly for some reason.

The show is really personal to me, and I think it was such a vulnerable writing experience that when I got feedback I let it unravel my belief in what I was trying to say, or somehow that I got any notes. I said, okay, it's broken. It's wrong. I have to redo. And I went through and I looked at all the many, I mean, hundreds of different drafts of this and not just drafts like, I changed the scene complete overhauls, new characters, new frameworks, new settings, new scenes, new plots, like across the board. Like, I don't even remember writing a lot of them. Like, oh wow, I had a character named that. Who did that? Okay, maybe I can use that in something else. 

But going all the way back to that first draft and remembering how excited I was about constructing it. And the early feedback I got from the few readers I gave it to was really positive. And then I don't quite know what happened. I think people were asking me questions and I think instead of figuring out what the answer to the question was and how to put it into that script, I heard it as a, "you have to do this thing," and then took it off in some weird direction.

I mean, I do love all those other versions I wrote, and I spent a lot of time on them, but what I noticed is that there is a real simplicity in that first version I wrote. One scene, one point, one plot drives you to the next scene, right? It had a rhythm. I had such a clarity when I was writing it. And then everything else after it got overwrought and overworked.

I spent a lot of time on setting descriptions and justifying different things and just getting into it on a level that wasn't serving my storytelling. And so just reading this version now and what I've realized is there was one note I got very early on, that was the scenes were too closed ended. Cause I would wrap up a scene. So I was like, " Oh, I'm just going to cut them off and create more of a, like, well, what the fuck is going to happen with that?” So that it's like, well, what will happen in the next episode or sort of dangling threads that can get you through the season.

And that was another note I got, which was, well, what is season two or what is episode two? And so I thought that meant there was something so broken in what I'd written, but what it meant was, for me in this script, I was just wrapping things up too cleanly because I want to do that, but this isn't a feature.

This is a TV show and it's a pilot. So I have to cut all those threads off short and leave them all frayed. And so it was just really interesting how, when I can read someone else's script and hopefully support them in not doing what I did, but I just so willingly allowed myself to be wrong and to not know.

But now I've learned that lesson and that I know, and I'm now in a place where I love this script and I love these characters. And if I get a question on, well, why is she doing that? I'll be able to say, well, it's because of this, or why is this character introduced? And I'll say, well, because in middle of the season, this is going to happen. And I need to set it up here. 

Meg: That's so good. That's so good. I love that. 

Lorien: And I'm really trying hard not to beat myself up about this. Because there's this constant sense of urgency, I think with screenwriters, with all artists, right? Finish it, get it done, get it out there, move on to the next thing. And I know I didn't waste all this time, but it does feel a little bit like I didn't spend my time as wisely as I could have. However, I wasn't quite there yet on the journey with this project. So I have to sort of believe that I got where I needed to go. 

Meg: Yeah, and it's such a personal project, it might've needed that trip around the sun because it's a very personal project for you to even be clear about it. Sometimes it's just as important to know what it's not. So I don't think it's wasted time at all because, you know, as you go down the chute and you go into the chopper and you're going to get more and more questions, you know, because you wrote it, like, you know, that won't work. Let me tell you, like, it'll be a good sword and shield on the way, and I think it's so profound what you're saying about sometimes if we're too close and vulnerable, we can just throw it out and be like, okay, well then that doesn't work, and I'll throw it all out, versus how do you go deeper? How do you pull it out? How do you see it better for what you're trying to do? And didn't you mention that you, there was a piece of dialogue that you raised when you went back and read it.

Lorien: So I went back and read it and, there's a piece of dialogue a character has. She's a professor and she's teaching a piece of literature, and she says this thing. And I was like, "Oh, that's what the whole show is about." And she is not aware of it, that it applies to her. She's a compartmentalizer. But it was like, well, this is what the show is. It is so much bigger than the plot. I had this idea it was about the plot somehow, and her journey and her struggle. And it's like, no, it's this big thematic thing. And I was in there when I wrote it. It must have something to do with, you know, fraud syndrome, being intimidated by people who are really smart, giving me really smart notes thinking, "oh, they must know something." And external validation. I want to please. I write it this way and they read it. They'll think I'm a great writer, but what kept happening is every draft I delivered for someone to read, they'd be like, "Oh, like it kind of got messier and muddier." And I want people to read it and like it and love it. And I want to set it up and make a show and work on it for the next 15 years somehow. Cause it'll be the longest running TV show in history. In modern history. 

Meg: You want SpongeBob. 

Lorien: Yes, and most important is that. I can only do that if I believe in it, and I know what it's about and I love it. And it might not go, but I have to take that conviction to every project I have. And it's a really scary idea: that I'm not writing to please you guys, or a producer, or my manager, or someone else. And that I'm telling stories because I'm curious about things and I want to investigate things, not that I am trying to, I mean, I am trying to sell stuff? It's just, it's a tricky place.

Meg: No, it's a tricky, it's a tricky compromise and balancing act is maybe a better word. But I do believe that even when you're writing features for big studios, a very big element of it for them is your passion and what you believe, and either why you took that writing gig, or why you sold them this spec, because that they, they do get that's the rudder. And hopefully before you sold it to them, you realized you all had the same rudder, right? When you don't, that's when it all goes kaplooey. But yeah, that it is a big piece. And sometimes when you're on a gig, you realize I've written to my passion and it's not fitting with the director. It's not fitting with what the studio is. And that's why they have to get another writer. Because that wasn't how I connected. Like, it is a very big part of it. It is an artistry part that, Even the money men, so to speak, the money ladies understand. That is who they're looking for, too. So it's not about abstinence or stubbornness. It's about connection to yourself first. 

Jeff: That was so brilliant. Thank you both for speaking on that. Can I ask a follow up Lorien? Cause like I'm, a lot of things are churning within me. When I'm like in the notes phase, I need to guard against asking the wrong people at the wrong times for notes.

Do you feel like there was any element of like self-sabotage or like you were asking the wrong people? And I'm only asking you that because I have a habit of sometimes doing that. 

Lorien: I don't think I asked the wrong people at all. I think I wasn't strategic about who I was asking and when and what I was asking for. So I have people who are early readers. Who I really value and respect and who can read something very early. Like Meg, you read my, an early draft of this. But then I got so excited about it and I loved it so much. I wanted to share it. Will you read this? Will you read this? And then it just became like this octopus out there and different people had different versions.

And then I give a second or third draft to Meg, but she'd have questions that kind of contradicted what someone else note and then what I thought, and it just got really messy. And then I started worrying about the market, right? So nobody I had read this was wrong and nobody gave me bad notes.

And everybody that I gave notes to, I gave it to read was like very supportive, but I wasn't clear about, and I wasn't able to answer the questions when the person was giving me notes. Like, what is episode two? Or what is the season ender? Or I hadn't done enough work in order to earn asking for people to read it yet.

Meg: Oh, that's really good. 

Lorien: This is a thing, a habit of mine. I've been in for a very long time that I am working really hard right now. And this really sheds a light on it for me is that I get so excited when I write something and like my early stuff so much. Then I'm like, read it. But it's not a whole thing yet.

So I'm burdening somebody with the responsibility of trying to figure out what the hell it is and helping me figure out what it is. But then I allow their questions to get in. Like, I haven't spent enough time with it enough. I haven't done the work yet. And I think that's a big part of growth.

Meg: Yeah. And like you said, there are maybe one or two people. Three, if you're lucky, who can come in at that early stage and help you in the right way, but you really have to be careful that you don't self-sabotage. Either because you are trying to sabotage yourself or because in trying to get recognition and get some confidence or ground under your feet, you're actually not looking for notes. And by you, I mean the general you, I mean all of us. 

Lorien: Validation. 

Meg: Sometimes you're not actually looking for notes. You're looking for validation to say, you know what, keep going. And it's better to say to somebody, I don't want to get in the weeds on this. I almost don't even want notes. I want big 30,000-foot view notes or support. But really what I want you to tell me is keep going. And then, you know, that's the right people. They'll be able to say that, right? But you have to know yourself well enough in terms of seeing where you are. And by the way, everybody does this out of pros, everybody, like this is just part of artistry of, wait, why am I giving it to somebody right now? And you know, to know yourself. So Jeff, do you, you think you sabotage, you're giving it to people who are going to be critical just for that part of you that's trying to get you to stop writing? 

Jeff: I'm inexplicably crying. So probably something about this show. Yeah, I feel like so seen by everything you're saying, Lorien. And the other thing that's hard is if you have those like Special note giver contacts and you send it too early, you only get so many chances with those brains. So like you need to use them strategically and sparingly. And I'm thinking back about cuts I've sent to people in post and thinking like, maybe I should have waited or it's okay, I mean, all of it's a learning experience and what valuable lessons to learn, but I will say one thing I'm proud of is I have a very smart, but very respectively harsh producer friend who gives great notes, but I waited a long time. Until I sent her a cut and I finally like we're close to picture lock. I sent her a cut and she had great notes and she watched it in earnest. And I think she's the kind of person where if I had sent it too early, it would have just been a massacre. 

So it is such an art. And I don't know, maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night. I'm just like very emotional. 

Meg: Well, you're vulnerable.

Lorien: This is a lot of writers have producing partners. They have this one person who they can trust to go through the process with them on it, right? It's like, okay, now it's ready to share with your manager. Okay. Now it's ready to share with somebody who's good at this or like an outside reader person.

Meg: Yeah. And I have a producing partner or team that I have in a lot of my projects because they say to me, I'm not sure about that note. I'm not sure about that. I get it. I get why he's saying that. But let's think about that. Because is that really the solution to this like they literally are help you walk it through, right, whereas I'm like, "oh my god I have to fix that, he doesn't like it!" And you're in there like... they're like that angel on your shoulder and sometimes if you don't have a producing partner It can be a friend right and that you're doing that for each other. Like we're gonna be the voice of keep going And just wait a minute. Take a breath. Like that's a big sacred place to be for another writer and you can be that for each other.

Lorien: So I'm putting it out into the universe that I would like to find some kind of producing partner that, you know, That could be that for me. And yes, Meg, you're that for me. I have other friends who are that too. 

Meg: It's better if it's a producer. Trust me. I know because they're invested because they are going to succeed when you succeed. So it's a very, it's a team partnership more than a friend who's coming in and out and has their own. 

Lorien: Yeah. So I'm manifesting that. 

Meg: Let's manifest that. Are you ready? 

Lorien: Anyway, thank you for listening. It has been, and it's funny because this other project since then, I've not really struggled with this, right? It's this one because it's so personal. 

Meg: It's so personal and so beautiful. And I love it. Jeff. How was your week? 

Jeff: Hey, first of all, thank you so much for sharing, Lorien. I just like that. I needed to hear that specifically. And just one last button I'll put on what you're saying too. I think like what you need to remind yourself of is, just because someone is brilliant, doesn't mean they're implicitly correct on something, right?

When I send things to smart people, I'm like, ""Oh, they have to be right because they're a smart writer I respect," but at the end of the day, so much of what you're doing comes from your own heart. And you're the only person who knows what that is sometimes. So they can Brilliant people can point out problems, but the solution they're posing isn't necessarily the right one. And only your heart knows. And it's just buried in there. So I don't know. 

Meg: Hundred billion. I saw this many times in brain trusts where super amazing, multiple Academy award winning people would give a note, and the immediate instinct is, well, I have to do that. And I could sit back when it wasn't my project and be like, "Oh, that's a good note, and he should not take the how," because the how that this other director is saying is that director's version of the movie, and what he would do with it thematically, emotionally. 

But this director is actually doing 180 degrees opposite of that. Like literally 180 degrees opposite thematic. And I was like, "Oh my god, I have to go talk to that director. I don't know about that note." Like I understand that the reason that note is being given is valid. That is happening in this, and that story does not work for that. You have to go look at that. But the how he's telling you, even though he's a genius? Holy smokes, be very careful. And you could see these things go off because you do want to take those notes. We all do. We all do. We all do. And you know. 

So you're not alone, Jeff. You know, I've seen the big guns do the exact same thing because it's, if you're in a vulnerable place and you grab on a lifeline. And it just takes some time. It's why at Pixar, after those brain trusts, there's always a 24-hour, 48-hour shutdown where nobody's talking and you just let the director process. And if he or she chooses to come immediately, like "I like this," and they want to just get it out, but there's always a, you've got to process and come back.

And then they say, this is what I liked. This is what I heard. And this is where I want to go. And this, I'm not worried about, or that, like, there is a... a culling of it. I still believe if, you know, two or three people say the same note, you gotta deal with; the how is always up to you. You're the creator you're the godhead.

Jeff: I can hop in with my week if y'all are ready. 

Meg: Yeah, Jeff, how was your week? 

Jeff: I can keep it quick. I'm sort of in an opposite place right now where we're like getting very close to picture lock, and like then we'll start color and sound on this feature. And it's like, I guess going to be like finished or like, I guess they say a movie is never finished.

It's only released, but I think I'm realizing like the only thing scarier than like working something and going through it and making refinements and taking feedback is like finishing it. That's where I am right now. I was scared in November when the edit wasn't coming together. But I'm way more fucking scared now because we're almost there.

So it's just a very interesting process because eventually I'll need to put myself out there. And, you know, it feels like you're kind of like bleeding for people. Like, here's the thing I did. I hope it doesn't suck. 

Meg: So, so when you say scared, you mean to get to put it in the world and get people? 

Jeff: Yeah, yeah. Because I will say one thing I'm happy with, and this is really good advice, is if you're like a first-time filmmaker and this kind of relates to what Lorien is saying, too. You have to stand by your own instincts. And there were times on set when I would get great suggestions from my DP or actors on set. And I always give the actors the first take. I let them do whatever they want with the dialogue, but you have to make sure that you're getting your take and what you need and what you want, because there's nothing like if the movie gets bad feedback and I took a note from someone else, I will resent that person for giving me that note and like shoehorning it into the thing.

So I need to bear the responsibility of this thing. So I'm glad it does feel like a pretty pure distillation of what I do and my voice. But of course that's even scarier because then I have no one else to blame for what it is. So, I don't know. I just think. 

Meg: No, but it's such the perfect bookend to what we're talking about.

She's at the beginning of a project saying, you have to know yourself and it's yours and you have to own it and you have to know it deeply and own all of it. And you're saying, because by the way, where this goes out in the world, you actually, that's the scary place to be, but it's the best place to be because Lorien and I did a project once for a network that by the end it had been so noted to death that we literally, I was like, Lorien, if they green light this, it's like a burning ship going out to sea. Like we're going to drown and be on fire. Like I, please don't green light it. Cause it just became a whole other thing and we didn't own it. And that was a really good learning lesson. 

Lorien: Yep. 

Jeff: Yeah. So I think just encouraging people that like. Yes, I understand it is terrifying to actually do the thing that is your voice and your thing. But I'm glad hearing from Lorien and hearing you explain like why it's important is making me feel better about locking this thing. So if anyone's curious about the movie, if you join our Patreon, you get to see a cut in March. So, little plug there.

That's super cool. 

Meg: Yes, let's do that. Jeff is going to do a full workshop on making this movie and I think it's going to be awesome, and I can't wait. 

Jeff: I've learned a lot good and bad so you can come hear it all on the Patreon. 

Meg: It's awesome.

Lorien: I think that the most terrifying part about this process being a screenwriter in Hollywood is that you just keep learning. Sometimes you have to learn the same thing over and over, and then sometimes you learn something and you're like, oh my god, if only I'd known that five scripts ago, right? But I wonder if there's a place where you can get where you're like, that's it, I know, I'm done, I've learned all I can learn about screenwriting, I am complete.

Meg: I think there's a place you can get of standing on solid ground. You've made your show and you've made multiple seasons, and you know this show and. You know that there's gonna be ground under your feet, but then guess what? You get to go to your next show, and you go right back to the beginning and you're like, "How do people write? What is a story?" Like, it's weird. 

Lorien: I remember it was so funny. I remember that at Pixar. I worked on so many films there. But every film felt like, "Wait, what do we do? Okay, wait, what are we doing? Okay, hold on." It was always sort of like a weird, like, and I'd be like, we've done this like 20 times before. I've done this four times already.

But it was always. Because it's new people and new stories and new themes and new just everything, but it always felt like we've never made a movie before, you know, and it was like, why is that? What is that? 

Meg: It's the artistry. 

Lorien: Like what is worse? 

Meg: It's the artistry of it. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Jeff: When Ed Solomon said that I was like, okay, it's everyone when he was like, I opened up a blank doc, and the first thing I think every time is what is writing? That was such a gift for him to say that. 

Meg: Totally. Totally. My week. I went to a wonderful think tank run by an organization called the Center for Scholars and Storytellers. And they bring together storytellers, i.e. Hollywood writers of television and movies, but there's also executives there from the studios and there's directors and there's showrunners and all different people.

And then on, and then the other people that you're talking to are the scholars who do the based research and are out in the community working on different topics. So for example, this think tank we divided into different groups. So one topic was how foster youth are seen and portrayed in stories, movies, TV shows.

Another one was how the parent teen relationship is portrayed. Race you know, LGBTQ. And I was at the table for male identity, which was really fascinating because I think there's a lot of talk, at least here in LA, I can only speak to my own bubble, I guess, of, you know, support and language and scaffolding for the people that need it in terms of women and people of color and the LGBTQ community. 

That is something that is in the ether, right? But young men, don't have the scaffolding and the new words, because they're in a whole new world and even the people that to look up to it's changing so fast for them and I have two teenage sons, which is why I think she put me in this group, and I see it in them. You know, especially my oldest where he's like, "well, I guess I'm the bad guy." That's not a way to grow up either, right?

And you know, really looking into male aggression and really looking into toxic masculinity and how are we representing men on the screen? So it was really fun because they had a tip sheet for writers or any storyteller to think about, like when you're creating a male character so for example, show boys and girls playing together, which seems simple and yet, you know, is it something they really want to see more that the boys can have female friendships at an early age?

Show of course, tough men being vulnerable, show boys doing more chores is an interesting one. Because American girls aged 10 to 17 spend two more hours a week doing chores than boys. And show boys playing with typical, not just typical toys, let them sort of different things, show boys being caring and having close friendships.

Because too often boys are not told to have close friendships. That's a big one, I think, right? And there's like 11 of them. There are 11 tips. So, you know, body type and gender identities and etc. So, it's a great tip sheet to have if you're writing. And I'm going to check if they have tip sheets for the other categories.

Because if you were ever going to write a foster youth, you better know what you're talking about and how to represent them correctly because you are putting an incredible power out into the world. The whole thing started with the head of it, Yalda, putting a picture of Obama up and a picture of Glee, the TV show Glee. And she said, guess which one moved the needle culturally. On the race identification or topics of race. Obama didn't move it one bit, not one in terms of the research. Didn't move it at all. And Glee moved it dramatically. 

So our stories have huge impact in the world. And I think it's super important to talk about and think about. And you know, if you're doing stereotypical men for comedy, right? And I posted something about the fat jokes, right? Like you have to think about, is that the only joke that you can tell right here? Is it the most interesting, even best joke just to tell a fat joke right here, right? It's just, it's really just things to think about at a certain stage of your writing about where this, what are you putting out in the world?

So, I'm going to post this tip sheet and I'll see if they have any more and I'll post a link to the site, to the scholar site, because you really, it is part of your responsibility as a storyteller with a huge impact you're going to have in the world to at some stage of your drafts of the 15 drafts you're doing. And by the way, you get better stories. That I had, there was a huge writer next to me in television. I mean, huge. And I was like a fangirl sitting next to him. I have to be honest. He's writing on Ted Lasso and Modern Family. I mean, just like huge. And he was so thoughtful and about as a comedian that, you know, a comedian is like, is it funny? Versus this being thoughtful about it. And so I just think it can have a really big impact in the world. This coming together of these different groups. So please do think about it for your writing. And maybe I'll send these links out for everybody. 

Lorien: I think it's really helpful to think about that in general as we approach different projects because, you know, there's this idea that we should write what we know, which I know is not literally like, I grew up in this town. I can only write about this town. It's more about what we know to be true. And we can tell character stories with that same truth.

But sometimes we can get intimidated by like, I really feel like this is a story I want to tell about adoption. But I don't have personal experience with adoption other than people that I know. So if I could look at a tip sheet like that and figure out what's coming from that group about how they'd like to be seen. And it can just be the start of conversation. 

Meg: And such better storytellers. 

Lorien: Opening up your horizons. 

Meg: People, better characters, because you're just going to move you out of stereotype. And they're going to be more complex. And I'll tell you, and I wasn't in that group, but at the end, everybody talked about things they had talked about, so you got little blips. And the one thing they said is adoption and foster care youth are not the same thing. And they feel very strongly about know the difference. So I just like, Oh, well, of course, like sometimes it's just you're not thinking about it because either you have your own unconscious stuff that you've been taught from storytelling that you're actually pulling from stories, not life.

And that's fine. We all do it. But that could be repeating the same stereotype. And therefore you're not getting a great character either. I mean, I'm going to say a million times, this kind of research and this thinking is not about 'politically correct.' I'm talking about better stories, much better storytelling, because you're being thoughtful and you're creating a human being with an experience versus a stereotype or a character that you've seen.

In movies or television, right? So it's very powerful stuff and it's going to be very powerful for your writing. Every creator from the executives to the writers, everyone was so excited, you know, literally like you're hearing stories. You're like, "Oh my God, that's a great episode. That's a great thing." Like it was literally, I could see everybody writing stuff down. It was like amazing. It's like, that's so good. So that was my week. I did that this week. So shall we get in? Oh, well, wait, before we get to our topic, Jeff? 

Jeff: Everyone's favorite part of the show. We got some Apple podcast reviews.

The reason we read these is because we do feel like this show is, it's not at all just the three of us. It's so far from that. It is so much of the community. You all offer nice words about how much our show means to you, but at the same time, your community engagement in the Facebook group and on social media and in person at festivals means just as much to us.

So to honor you and all of your voices, we'd like to read some of these five-star Apple podcast reviews. This one comes from Jade shrine, who says beyond a podcast. Do any of us even remember when we weren't thinking about vomit drafts or lava? I've listened to so many screenwriting podcasts and many are great, but no others have created such a great sense of community and shared consciousness the way that the TSL podcast has. Can I pitch a screenwriting life retreat? Yes. Absolutely. I love that. 

Meg: It's on the Facebook group. It's been circling to do that. So yes, we're thinking about it, but someone's going to have to help us.

Jeff: I will read them. 

Lorien: Yes. But I get my own room. I'm not sure. 

Meg: You're going to have to help us put it together though, because yeah. 

Jeff: Yeah, this one comes from Toujour Perdue, who says not just for screenwriters, witty and practical, Meg and Lorien's real world approach to craft inspired this dabbler to finish one long dormant novel and two flash fiction stories, many of which were recently published online. Most importantly, they reminded me that storytelling is a gift we dare not ignore. We don't need to give ourselves permission to write. It's something we must do. I can't thank them enough. 

Meg: Oh, that makes me so happy. Yeah. 

Lorien: Congratulations. 

Jeff: Whenever I hear about novelists, I'm like, "Oh, they're like the real writers."

I know, 

Meg: like seriously. I'm like, "Oh my God, you wrote a whole book?"

Jeff: I know exactly.

Lorien: That's a lot more words than we do. 

Jeff: So thank you so much to those who write in. These five-star Apple podcast reviews, not only do they make us feel good, but much more importantly, they boost our show up in the algorithm. And Meg and Lorien and I do this because we're passionate about mentorship and mission. And one of the best ways that you can join that cause is by just hopping on Apple podcast and writing a quick five-star Apple podcast review. If you don't want to write a review, you can literally just hit the five stars and press submit, but you're all such good writers. It's nice to read your words as well.

Meg: It is nice to hear your words. And I hear you all going, "I'm going to do that as soon as I'm done." And then you're going to get, go get a cookie or you're going to get a phone call and that's going to be that. So try to remember! Okay. Okay. Topic. So we got a question from a listener who is anonymous, so we cannot credit them unfortunately, but just know we read these, and this is the question that we wanted to put the show around: so in my writer's group, I feel like I'm not giving useful notes for the most part where the others give me such great thoughtful notes on my work. How does one learn to read a writer's really rough pages and ID spots where they could make things work better or ID foundational story problems?

So You know, there's a lot packed in here in terms of, oh, great topics that we could do. So we're just going to take it and talk through some things. For me, one of the most important things to think about when you're giving notes, and I'm trying to teach this to my 18 year old as well, who's starting to write and give notes to his friends, which is I think the most important thing is to ask questions versus come in and with prescriptive things or, you know, of course, it's always good to say, I didn't understand this, or please, could you make this more clear or whatever. But if the questions still are, I didn't understand this, therefore, what, why, how, that's still a question because it is the storytellers. Dream, and you may be mixing up the metaphors. You may be projecting your dream onto theirs and you're completely missing the boat and you're going to send them off in a direction unintentionally that isn't their dream.

So I always ask questions first. And the questions I ask, or I try to go immediately down into the deepest core story engine topics, shall we say, elements, pieces of the engine, because every note, in my opinion, and we've talked about this, are symptoms of a deeper disease. So, you know, especially in, like, a writer's group, you're going to get a lot of maybe top notes, which are symptoms.

And those questions, by asking them questions like, well, what is this about for you? Thematically, emotionally, you know, thematically, emotionally is the first element, core element of the story engine, which is why do we care? What is the emotional, what are you emotionally trying to say through this character's journey and experience? And I'm speaking specifically to features and I'm very interested in Lorien's take on television and I do think TV shows episodes can have thematics. I think whole shows can have thematics as a show. You know, why you might be asking a question, sometimes, especially for an indie filmmaker, they have a question about the way, why human beings are the way they are, you know, look at blue and his question about, can you live and not live when the trauma and the loss is so great?

How do you live without feeling anything? And then he just does it over and over smashing life in at her. Having that question is the hardest one to get, of course, into the conscious brain. But even if that writer can give you a bucket, it's about injustice. It's about what, where are we, right?

That at least can get everybody else's notes coming towards kind of what arena that they're in, right? And from there, you're good. You know, world building questions are important, but I think they're mostly important in terms of the character, they're just metaphors, right? For what's happening to the character.

But do you understand the world? And I don't just mean sci fi. I mean this character's view of the world. The world is a dangerous place. Their place in the world. How are we experiencing the world through a character? You know a lot of the movies I've been watching for the Academy run is, a lot of them are slice of life. So that's a whole of a pocket of fish, right? Like, this is just experiencing life as this person experiences it. But there is a version of storytelling that is take multiple, you never ever get into anybody's emotional point of view. Like you just keep bouncing around and they're intellectually interesting, but they're not emotional to me. I can forget about them other than maybe the beautiful visuals. I don't feel like they ultimately rise up even. Don't look up. He's, it's so emotional and you're so in that character's point of view, even though he's got a lot of characters when he's in it, he's in it so deeply and he's picked really the two to really spine it. So what is their world? How do they see the world? Get me in there.

The other elements are tone. So you could be asking genre questions. Again, world and tone are kind of last, or just help orient you to what is it they want, right? Sometimes you're going to be surprised when they, when you say, give me a movie that's in the same tone and you're going to be like, "Oh my God, it was a comedy."

Like, you better know that. What if you don't know, what if you didn't laugh? So you don't even know if it's a comedy. So those are kind of the bigger things. And then you can go into, you know, do you understand what the main character wants emotionally, or in the plot desperately wants, and what are the stakes to that want both emotionally and externally? Like if they don't get it. 

I was just talking to a writer this morning and I was like, I think this is an emotional want, which is great. I mean, but I don't know why he can't just in the middle of a go, you know what, this is too hard and go home. Like, he can, so he's not locked in. So how can we get that? How can we lock him in? But not from an internal point, but like, why would he be locked into this journey? And the other thing I asked him today, which I was like, oh, I should share this with our listeners, cause it's just an outline stage. It's just really broad. So it's, he's just starting to turn it up. And I was like, this is a weird question, but what would his, 'I want' song be? And he was like, well, oh man, that's a cool question. And he started to tell me his, 'I want' song. And I'm like, but that's not really an 'I want' song. You're telling me all the subtext. They don't sing the subtext, right? Moana sings about, I don't know why, but I want to go past the reef. I want to get in the boat and I want to go, but then there's her debate. But you know what? I have other responsibilities here and I love my parents and why would I want to go? But you know what? I kind of really do want to go. 

I was like, Oh, maybe we should as a, as for our listeners on Facebook, everybody should start posting their favorite I want songs because they're really great songs. Instructors to what a want is and the debate and the problem of the want and that the antagonist sometimes actually has a good point of view of why you shouldn't want it, which makes it harder for you, right?

So, and because this is a child protagonist in this writer that I'm talking to, so they tend to be not transformative, but claiming their wants are valid. So he would have an, I want song, right? Like think about Aladdin. I just want to live in that palace. I just want to be somebody else. Which you're like, yeah, I totally get that.

And then, but he has to learn, but you actually still have to be yourself, whether you're in that palace or not. You're right. So those 'I want' songs, I think, are fun. So knowing that want, knowing that longing is a great word. You can ask about that. What are the conflicts to it? You can ask like, there's your basic questions.

And I know you're going to be "well, I can't in my story group ask that." Oh yes, you can. We do it at brain trust. You can totally ask the most basic questions because everybody in that group needs to know what that creator wants it to be or think is thinking about, right? What's their plan? Do you, are you clear on the plan of the main character? I want this and I'm going to get it this way. Because then act two is, you think so, right? But you're not, because sometimes having that plan helps then muck it up. We have an expectation of the way it's going to go, and guess what? No, it isn't, because life never meets your expectation.

And then the last one I'd say is, do you understand and know emotionally and clearly what the main relationship of the movie is? Just was talking to Josh Cooley, who I wrote Inside Out with, and we were talking about how at one point there was a lot of talk of, "is it, the main relationship, with Sadness, or is it Bing Bong, or is it Riley?

Like, who's Joy's core main relationship with? You know, for me it was Sadness. She's structuring it. She's the thematic. She's actually changing her. So like, Dory with Nemo's dad, Marlin, what is that core relationship? Yeah. And it might be with the antagonist, by the way. It doesn't have to be with a buddy, it could be with the antagonist. So those are the kinds of questions I would ask, and those answers bring on more questions and more illumination. And of course, sometimes you're going to say, I missed that. Or here's where I got lost, or here's where I stopped feeling it, or even understanding what's happening.

That's good for a writer to know, of course, too, I think. So that's my thoughts, and that's very feature driven. So Lorien, I'll have you jump in now. 

Lorien: I think a lot of it is the same for TV, but I think there's something else under this question, which is this fear or need of at least that's what I responded to, of having to earn your spot in the room, at the table, and in the group.

I'm a part of a writer’s group. We don't meet that often, but it is, from my point of view, very fancy writers who intimidate the hell out of me. And I would, early on, would feel like, why am I here? Why, everyone here must be thinking, "who is this? Why is she here?" And I would do my best, but so much of my time in the reading it, listening to everybody else, was spent worrying about that.

And so afterwards I get in my car, and I just cry the whole way home, because I just felt shame. I felt shame about not earning it enough, not being as smart as other people, not being as prepared. And so I really got myself wound up and then I had to realize like, okay, look, if they don't want me in the group, they're going to kick me out, so I'm just going to chill, and realizing that was not serving me giving good notes. That was not serving me because what my role is to read thoughtfully. And to be prepared how I prepare what my process is, which is different. Some people bring notes. I like to show up having read it and thinking about it and then listening to what other people have to say and listening if I agree, if I disagree, if that sparks some idea with me. And then if I do say something, you know, sometimes I can leave a meeting and like I said, one funny thing, and maybe it had to do with what was. the script or not, but it brought everyone some joy for that moment, right? And that was what I brought to that meeting.

Other times I might say something that isn't quite right, but it might spark someone else's idea, which leads to another idea. And when I was in the hot seat, it was super overwhelming because I had that same sort of feeling of being overwhelmed, but I wasn't listening to who was saying things. I wasn't keeping track of that. I was trying to listen to the conversation and what was happening. And it's the same thing running a writer's room. I'm not keeping track of which writer in the room came up with what idea. I'm listening for the flow of the conversation. And sometimes a writer just needs to sit and listen, and at the very end, comes up with a question that really pushes us to the next level. Sometimes in a group like that, and not necessarily in a writer's room, but in a big group, in a writer's group, a small one, you might not realize what you really wanted to ask until after, like you're washing the dishes.

You can reach out to that person and say, "Hey, I had a thought. Is it okay if I share it with you?" Some people are good in a group setting, some people are not. And so I think part of it too, is sort of disbelieving that you have to earn it in a certain way in competition with the other people. Everybody's different. 

So that's when I read that question, I was like, "Oh, I know what I'm talking about this," because there's a lot of stuff going on, right? It can be very intimidating to be part of a writer's group. In terms of TV notes this is all the same questions. For me, it's always, like you said Meg, character. What do they want? What's in their way? 

And then a lot of times when I'm giving notes on, like, somebody gives me a pilot to read, I try to figure out what I'm curious about, or what I'm excited about, or what I want to see more of too, right? Sometimes it doesn't have to be digging into pushing those sort of really constructive notes. Sometimes it can just be, like, "I loved this bit of dialogue these two characters had, this was the part I really lit up for," right? And not even saying "but in this other part I didn't feel that," you can point at things that you loved because that helps a writer Just as much understand what's working and what people are responding to. 

Meg: Yeah, 100 percent yeah. 

Lorien: Which is why Meg always kicks off every conversation I'm in with her about anybody's writing or any project is like, "Hey, what do we love about it? What do we respond to?" Because that is just as important. And it's so valuable to hear, you know? 

Meg early on in a project I gave you, you said, I really want to see her be good at something. And I realized I hadn't included that. I was like, "Oh yeah, she does need to be good at something." And then I had so much fun writing that scene, like, "Oh yeah she does need to be good at something," you know? And so, but that's what you were curious about. That's what you were craving. And that's a good note too, you know, keeping it broad, not saying at this particularly. I think it's trusting yourself, what you're curious about, according, like all of Meg's questions, they're such a great guideline, like being prepared, like, "okay, I'm curious about what the tone is, what the genre, is this a comedy and I missed it?" But also just trusting that you are the right person in that moment to have read that, because that is such an honor to be able to read someone's work, to be there to physically, or on Zoom, witness the process with and for them, and to and to just, you know that you don't have to earn it by being the same.

Meg: Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good point, Lorien. That whole thing about being good at something I learned right when I worked as an executive with an actor. Because actors really want to learn something and create behaviors and be actively behaving in a scene. They don't want to just sit there. They don't want to just resist something like that's the hardest acting you can do to do nothing, right? So to receive information is equally as hard as to be the one giving the exposition, right? So many, especially young emerging writers, write shut down characters because that's who they want to write about, but how are they shut down really good? Like their unique way to shut down is kind of fascinating and they're kind of really good at it. Like, the way they avoid people is smart. You know what I mean? Like, why are they the hero, right? Like, of all the shutdown people, this is a really interesting one. Their response and reaction and behavior in the face of stimulus that they don't want to deal with, they're really smart in how they do it, or they use humor or how they wait for everybody else to leave the store, or whatever, right? That is equally why we love characters, right? There's a big difference between feeling sorry for a character and loving a character.

And too often people think pitying somebody, a character, is connecting to it, and it is not. It actually distances you from the character. Intellectually you might be with them, but I'm not. with them. I'm pitying them. I'm separate from them versus, "Oh, I am them. And I kind of wish I was them because I would have never thought to do that, but it's almost like a fantasy that if I was that shut down, I'd be that good at it." Or hysterically bad at it. But their response to being hysterically bad at it is so endearing. Will Ferrell plays this often, right? Or the arrogance is so big and silly and yet oddly good at it, right? It creates that persona that you just love him, right?

And I, that's the ball game, right? If you can create a character that people connect to, especially in TV, and I want to come back every week and watch them like The Great, I just every week want to see what those characters are going to do, because they're so bizarre and wonderful and human and not human and talk about being good at something or not. He's good at really being bad, but he's horribly good at it. So that's the ballgame to me. And it's what I do draft after draft, trying to find it. And that's why I just do a lot of free writing and just talking it out with somebody can help too.

Jeff: I think just remembering to just to echo what you said, Meg, about asking great questions. Remembering that your job as the note giver isn't necessarily to pitch the show you wish you were seeing. It's really to pitch the show that is the purest essence of what you're doing. that writer's version of the show.

So, sometimes you'll be reading something, and you'll think, "I would love to see this played maybe straighter or funnier," but that has to do with your own taste. So I think sometimes those instincts are good because they can push towards a better story or better moments, but deciphering whether or not some of the instincts you have while you read are, "this is how I would write it," versus, "this is how this writer should be getting closer to the beacon of their own story.", Being really thoughtful about that's important because I've gotten notes before, and of course after the fuck you fuck me the whole saga you think "well maybe this person was just pitching me their version of this and they weren't actually pushing me towards my version of this."

Meg: And sometimes you have to think about the note, that there's an issue there is relevant, but the how, who knows? I mean, even when you get the note, I don't know, maybe that'll work, who knows? Because I also, when you do this enough, you know that, well, that'll change this, and this, and you don't even know how much it's gonna fall down until you get in there and start doing it. And you're like, the whole second half fell down, and it was the only part that worked, so wait a minute, is it worth rebuilding this whole thing for this one note, this how? No, because it's not even on my theme, so wait. 

So, I'm not saying don't try the hows, but don't get married to them, and don't think they're right. No. The how is just there to illuminate, the what is wrong. The note, under the note, that's all it's there for. And you know that specific writing craft stuff is interesting, Jeff. I don't generally give those notes, like page notes, but I can see how that would also be vulnerable for some craft. 

Lorien: Yeah, I was going to say, sometimes you don't know what the writer's version of it is, and that's why you're asking questions. So it's, for me, it's always rooted in curiosity, right, like, I was curious why this character made this choice, which for me means it wasn't earned. You didn't set it up the right way. So if you tell me in our notes session why they made the choice, I'll be like, "Oh, that's great. Well, how can we put something, how do we establish that?" So that I'm with them when they make that choice, rather than it coming out of the blue.

I don't know. That's not a page note. 

Meg: That's a character note. 

Lorien: That's a character note, right? Why did they do that? 

Jeff: Great point though, because so often questions, if you have a frustration with something or something doesn't read for you correctly, the bad version of giving that note is "this doesn't work or this is bad," or whatever, whereas the way Lorien is framing it is, "what was your goal here?" Because then you're actually pushing the writer to give the solution themself, I think. 

Lorien: And you might not have the answer, which doesn't mean it's wrong, which is what I learned, right? If I don't have the answer, if somebody asks a really good question and I'm like, "Oh no, I don't know," My first impulse is "it's broken. I have to rewrite it," instead of, "why is that question coming up? What haven't I earned? What's not making sense?" And then you have to go back in and dig in on a deeper level rather than writing a new scene completely out of context. I'm really good at that. 

Meg: Well, and sometimes in those groups, if the writer doesn't know the answer, you can have a, everybody we start throwing out what it could be. And that's very valuable. 'cause it might spark, but that doesn't mean any of those are right. 

Lorien: That can be really overwhelming for me. 

Meg: And it can be overwhelming, so your brain has to be able to be like, well, that's the smorgasbord of possibilities, but your process has to be, how do you relate to that? Or like, do you need to just ignore it and go away and do your own thing? I like to just go taste a lot of it and see what tones down into me and feels right and gets the engine moving, right? I like having the smorgasbord and I feel safer. It's so funny. I feel safer with it. Like, oh, look at all these possibilities. And look, I can try all this stuff. As long because I'm not saying they're the authority. There's no have-to and shoulds out there. It's literally like going up to craft service. What do you feel like today? Does it work? Whatever. So: chips, I know. 

Lorien: It's always chips. 

Meg: But I'm the sweet tooth and you're in the salty, right?

Jeff: Just really quickly-- 

Lorien: So salty! I'm so salty.

Jeff: One last thing, if someone sends you material to read, we may have said this on the show before, but the first thing I always do is say, "what kind of feedback do you want?" If you want me to read this and literally tell you, "I love it," there's a version of notes that I can give for you.

That's where I am with the movie right now. Like, this is pretty much locked. Just tell me you like it. So, but that's helpful, you know, or like right now I'm asking for score notes. I think we're pretty much locked, but I need help with sound. So I think asking whoever's wanting feedback, what kind of feedback they should be getting is really valuable to that person who's asking for those notes.

Meg: A hundred percent. Really good point. You have to know where they are. And you have to know who you're asking, because I, it's very hard for me not to give deep notes. I can do it, but I will do it by pointing out, well, if you can't change anything, but you still have this slight problem, how could we change just this piece, right? Just to help push that along. I mean, I just can't, it's like, I'm not the polished person to come to. I mean, I can do it as a writer, but yeah. So. I hope this has been helpful to you guys. It's always inspiring to me even as a writer to remember these things and hear Lorien and Jeff's perspective on things. Thanks for tuning in. If you haven't yet, join our Facebook group. We've got a lot of great stuff going on there. 

Lorien: And we also have a Patreon where you can go over. Join it. I don't know how you get there. Jeff, how do you get to our Patreon? 

Jeff: To join our Patreon, go to patreon.com/thescreenwritinglife. And if you are intimidated by technology and computers and this kind of stuff, you're not alone. You are not alone. I get it. If you just go to that website, patreon.com/thescreenwritinglife. I put up a tutorial giving you like the full nuts and bolts of what it is and how it works. So don't be intimidated. It's fun. We're all a bunch of fun, lovely, goofy nerds over there and we'd love to have you join. 

Meg: Yeah, we're just doing workshops and just a way for us to meet you and help you more directly, and also give you more information that we can do on the podcast. 

Lorien: Yes, it's very fun. And yep, leave us a five-star review on Apple podcast. And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing. 

Jeff: Thanks for tuning in to The Screenwriting Life. We love our community, and we want to get to know you even better. Join our Facebook group at facebook.com/thescreenwritinglife or email us at thescreenwritinglife@gmail.com to have your question considered for the show. You can also suggest topics by emailing us there. 

Also, we'd love for you to drop us a review on Apple podcasts. Even if we don't read your review on air, trust me, we have read it. And not only does it mean the world to us, but it helps other people find the show. We've always been driven by mission and mentorship, and reviewing our show helps expand that mission. And of course, until next Sunday, happy writing.