81 | Why Character "Wants" Matter More Than Almost Anything Else

What is the most common note writers get? It almost ALWAYS relates to character "wants." Today, Meg and Lorien breakdown why character wants matter more than almost anything, how to incorporate them into your work, and why they'll help propel your story all to fade out.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey, welcome to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna.

Meg: We are professional screenwriters. We've worked together as a team and separately. We've worked on studio and indie films, live action and animation. From my work on Inside Out and Captain Marvel.

Lorien: To my work in Pixar's story department on Up, Brave and Inside Out.

We are here to share our insights on the craft of screenwriting and also the life. How to not only survive the ups and downs, but thrive. We want to help you become the best screenwriter you can be and to reassure you that you are not alone on this journey.

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life.

Today we're going to do a deep dive on want. What does a character, your character, want?

Lorien: But before we get into that, we're going to talk about our weeks or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting.

Meg: Lorien, how was your week?

Lorien: It was just delightful. Fine, as always, regular, no drama, nothing interesting happened.

That's a big fat lie. But one of the things I wanted to talk about, I was revisiting. So I have this incredibly robust drafts file in my email, like emails I've started. notes to myself, titles of things that I don't know what they are, but I did find this email that was a letter for myself called goals for 2021.

So I realized that is last year, but I don't know who suggested I do this or Meg, if this was a practice you and I started a while ago where I wrote in first person present. What I wanted to happen. So in mid June, I get a call from blank and this happened. So I got really detailed about it.

And I really like it. Of course, none of these things happened in this particular way. And one of the projects that I'm talking about happening in mid June is still in development. So now I'm just like, maybe that'll happen this June. But I really liked this way of writing, I have an assistant who blah blah blah I have a producer who blah blah blah, and it was a way for me to really put into specific.

Words, what I want, speaking of character wants, rather than just, I want my next show to go. It was, I want my next show to go, or my next show is going, and these are the people who are involved with me. And these are the challenges that we have that we overcome in this way. And these are the ways that it impacts an audience.

And this is the network it's on. And I feel like. I abandoned this document, obviously, but I'd like to do a new one and refresh it like every month based on what happens because everything changes so quickly. But I really like this because it felt like it minimized my imposter syndrome. a bit that I can imagine what I want and go after it and that I don't have to listen to no or that's not going to work or that's not the way things work.

It's this is the way things are going to work for me. So that was it for me in terms of sort of re imagining my Next steps. So that's, other than that, I got some notes on a project and I'm still in development on this other project and I'm restarting another one that I really love and care about.

So then I'd like to write something new, just something new, some new thing. I got halfway through a play the week before my daughter was diagnosed and I'd like to go back and just finish it. Just finish that play. So yeah, so that was my week.

Meg: I love that you're defining, I love that you're defining your wants.

I think that's the more specific you can get the better long term ones, short term ones. Not only does that help your brain, like you said, feel empowered and like it's not impossible and you don't get lost in the kind of broad context of, but it also can start to show you steps you need to take. If your brain sees, I want this by this date.

Well, how the hell are you going to get there? Well, what's the wants you need to do. What are the steps to get there? It really starts to make it concrete, right? I also just in terms of the context, wants can make you very vulnerable, and they can push you to evolve yourself because I usually want things Oh, I don't know.

I'm not going to say like bigger. I want, I want big ones. So, and I've learned to have that by the way, and we're going to talk about that, but I'm in the vulnerable stage right now, and my brain has just turned on fire. I can, I just, this morning talking to my husband realized, What switch got turned on.

Like my amygdala is just going, it is just going like a siren in my head. You're going to die, pull back. It's like free falling without a parachute going. And it got triggered from a multiple of things. A conversation I had with somebody who was very erratic and I didn't feel safe creatively.

And then notes, so turn it on. And then a series of things have turned it on, including past things that are being mirrored right now. So my brain isn't noticing that it's in the past. It thinks it's happening again. Don't walk in the room, don't walk in the room kind of stuff. It's not real.

It's not happening. But the alarm is still going. The imagel is still going off. So, the want feels dangerous right now. I feel very vulnerable to want this, to put myself in the position of wanting, to put myself in the position of not knowing, which is an incredibly vulnerable experience to put yourself in a a position of, let's, authority is a weird word for a writer, because we never feel like authorities.

But you are, because you have to deliver, right? People are depending on you. And I never want to disappoint people. And so it's a bit of a spark. I'm a bit of a spiral right now, but it happens, at some point, you just have to forgive yourself if the switch flips, because if you don't, you're not going to turn it off either because you're beating yourself up, which is now feeding the flame in the lava.

I'm trying to use it to evolve myself. I'm trying to sit with it. And see what it's trying to tell me. And, talk back to that part of my brain that it's actually not happening and you're with, these people are trustworthy and they're not beyond trustworthy. They are supportive and helpful and everybody, it's not happening right now.

This is not what's happening. What happened to you in the past, which I talked a little bit about on the episode with my son, right? When I had that traumatic experience, that trauma has, Even though it's years ago resurfaced because some part of my brain sees the same mirror. And so it's up and walking around and I'm gonna try to use it to calm myself down and grow.

But it's very hard, like I'm, for, I'm forgetting things. I'm kind of spacey, I'm tripping. Like I'm in some sort of dissociative experience...

Lorien: JUST PTSD . PTSD does that.

Meg: It's a little PTSD. And again, to be respectful to the people who have experienced war, but I did experience a kind of death moment in that experience that I had.

So it's it's rushing through. And so I'm going to try to use it for myself and, it's tricky because the alarm's going off and I have to be present. I have to be present creatively. I have to, to do what we talk about, which is put lava into something. If the alarm's going off, that's hard because the alarm is don't do that.

Oh my God. It's like exposing your neck for the knife, but it's not happening. You know what I mean? And I know as soon as I get through this gate and my brain sees it's not happening, I know it's just going to go. So we talk a lot about getting notes and then it's fuck you, fuck me, and that is normal stuff.

This is a little bit different for me right now. This is a little higher, and I'm, and it's affecting my family and I'm just being very honest with my family. Like I'm in a weird place right now. It's not you. My brain is on fire. I just need to push through this and learn from it, evolve it.

Let it see that it's not happening now. So I want to talk about it too, because I know when we talk about, Hey, do your lava as if yeah, just do it. This can happen. The, it can trigger stuff and you can, your brain can catch on fire. I do think I'm going to try to put it into the work. I'm going to spend this afternoon. It's ironic, right? Because, you write about your characters and then what you're going through is sometimes I feel like you call it to yourself, right? If you're writing something about trust, guess what? You don't trust anybody or whatever, you feel, your character is full of self loathing.

So suddenly you're full of self loathing, like you do call it up, right? So, I'm going to try to just do free writing just for myself to dump it somewhere and let the character hold it for me. And let her process it for me to try to use that imagination in a different way.

Lorien: Can I interrupt you for just a second?

This brings up something, a question that I think we get asked, like I get asked how do you get into the lava? How do you use the lava without hurting yourself? Sort of that. Cause we're not psychologists. We're not psychiatrists. We're not mental health workers. So it's sort of this, we're asking people to do dangerous things.

And. So I said...

Meg: dangerous. I mean, it can feel dangerous ,

Lorien: ...emotionally, the feelings can feel very, like what you're talking about. It feels very vulnerable, very dangerous. And so I think, you're talking about free writing and putting it into the work. Maybe there's a series of simpler exercises that people who aren't used to where you are.

You're very self aware. You've been doing this for a long time. So you say, I'll put it into the work. I'll do some free writing with my character, but maybe as an emerging writer, there might be easier steps to get there. And maybe that's well, maybe we can deal with it. Darkroom. Going into a dark room.

You've talked about this before. And just writing in the dark, whatever it is, you're feeling right. You're in a closet. you're protected, in the dark.

Meg: What I do is I ask. I asked my higher self a question and then I don't even look at what is answered, so again, that's just the, this crazy thing I did when I was in a hard place.

Lorien: That's valuable in terms of we're writers and we think I'll put this into the work. And I think there's a part of us that wants to jump right to, I'll put this pain into the scene or this discovery into the scene where there's, there might be other ways to get at that, which is locking yourself in a dark bathroom, asking yourself a higher asking your higher self a question and then just writing and not even ...

Meg: we're asking your younger self a question or and I want to get that into that with wants to.

Well, I think we could do a whole episode on dealing with lava and we'll get some expert advice to like from our friend Dara, who's a psychiatrist, but you know, so that we should make sure that what we're giving is a safe I think that's really important. So we'll do a whole, We'll learn from it too.

Then maybe we'll have a guest who knows. So let's do that. Jeff, do you have anything to add before we jump into our topic?

Jeff: I can keep it quick. It's been an interesting week for me and I was texting you Meg about something else. And then I mentioned basically, hopefully I haven't been overselling it, but next week is our micro budget feature filmmaking, Patreon workshop.

So. Now's your chance.

Meg: Run by Jeff. Run by Jeff Graham.

Jeff: Yeah. Run by me. And so if you're interested in seeing the movie join our top tier on Patreon and you'll get a screener. And that's what I did this week is I sent screeners out to all of our top tier patrons.

Lorien: Congratulations! Putting yourself out there.

Meg: Woohoo!

Jeff: It's so funny. I felt like for a month I was like so excited. And then all of a sudden I hit subscribe. Send it. I was just like, Oh shit, what have I done? And throw up right now. I, it truly is I was ready to actually vomit. That is kind of distinctly the feeling. And the funny thing is it's like when you send work to a studio or your manager, so anyone, and you kind of want to hit send and almost pretend you didn't and just be like, okay, this doesn't exist until I get notes back or feedback. And I'm just going to silo it off. But the problem was, this service I'm using, I had it tuned to send me a notification anytime someone received the screener.

Meg: Oh no!

Lorien: Turn that off! Oh no! No! No! Oh my god!

Jeff: So unfortunately, for the next hour

Lorien: Like tiny cuts every single time.

Jeff: Truly literally. Oh my god. For the next hour, my phone was just going, oh

Meg: Oh my God

Jeff: Which symbolized each person receiving the movie. So that was a nightmare, but besides that, things are fine.

Meg: The only thing.

Jeff: Yeah.

Meg: Yeah. I, like Netflix and they can track when people turned it off. And I'm thinking don't ever tell a creative any of that data. Don't ever tell a creative any of that data.

Jeff: That's the other mistake is this does. I should probably turn it off. I should probably turn that off.

Meg: Turn that off! Turn it off.

Jeff: It's nice because I'm seeing who's finishing it, but I'm also seeing

Meg: no.

Jeff: Commonly around minute 23. It seems like people are losing. Okay.

Meg: Listen, I'm going to tell you something. If you want to record that data and look at it five years from now, two years from now, when you have separated from it, it's no longer your quote unquote child.

And then bill clipboard is done. That might be helpful to know, Hey, in my writing process, this is where I lost the audience. That is good information for a producer or for you a couple of years from now. Mean, I know in feature films, I mean, you have to go in and sit with an audience and they're not laughing.

That mother stood up and took her kids out. Yeah

Jeff: it's nightmarish.

Meg: Go in the bathroom and listen to what people say about your movie,

Jeff: There's one scene I could still cut.

Lorien: I love TV. I love TV.

Meg: So you're saying that there's a scene you can cut and you're, but do you have a producer on this?

Do you have a friend?

Jeff: I do. I do. I've got a great producer. I know. You're right.

Meg: Give that person the alert and they can say to you, you know what? We got the alerts. We don't need to cut that scene. Or you know what? We should talk about. That's it.

Jeff: Do you know what I need? I need it to tell me when someone finishes it.

That's what I need.

Meg: No! Because they your brain is going to go: Oh my God. Only two people finish.

Jeff: You're right.

Meg: There's no winning. Don't do it.

Lorien: This is called morbid curiosity.

Jeff: I think that's exactly right.

Meg: Or self sabotage. Who knows?

Don't do it. You're trying to protect yourself by bringing yourself down.

Don't do it!

Jeff: Well, that's good advice. I will say the nice distraction has been kind of planning the curriculum for this class and that's been fun. I do love to teach. That's what I studied. I taught a class leading up to the film. So I feel like that's a really healthy way for me to feel like I'm still engaging with the movie without Burying myself in a trench with it and like feeling like I can mine productivity out of it, even if creatively or career wise, it doesn't do exactly what I want using it as an opportunity to teach others has been like really valuable.

Meg: Mining productivity. That says a lot about you, Jeff mining.

Jeff: That says exactly where I am right now with it. I need it. By the way.

Meg: I'm in that club of mining productivity. I just never thought of it that way. And that it's wonderful, but I'm totally with you. That's a producer brain right there. Let's find some productivity out of this.

Jeff: It's the budget that keeps popping into my brain. Like making sure I can milk every dollar we put, which is also unhealthy .

Meg: I totally get it.

Jeff: Yes.

Meg: All right. Let's move on to wants. Just so that we have time for our topic. Cause we three can chat for the whole time.

Lorien: Most of the questions, most of the notes we get have to do with answering this.

What does a character want? Why do they want it? How are they going to get it? What's in their way? All these things are, is structure.

Meg: Well, the want is structure. I also think that there's been a lot in the last, I don't know, however many years, decade, I don't know, between, want versus need.

And that's the kind of studio executives will ask you, it's very much in the vernacular now of, development and it's valid and you should know the difference between the want and the need for sure the need is really important the wound a lot of people talk about totally need to know all of that 100 but people don't talk people kind of set slough off the want as if it's you know not that important or it's the third cousin or it's the thing that's wrong or whatever and I just want to reclaim it a little bit today.

And I had a friend once who, whenever she had a question, she would take the word of her question and then she'd go look in the dictionary. And so I did that with the word want, right? What is the word want to me? So there's a couple of different aspects to want. The first is to feel or desire strongly.

And some synonyms are thirst, yearn, hunger, wish. Long for take two, which is a great one, right? What does your character take to just naturally crave? Itch. Here's another great one. Require. Necessary. So these are positive aspects of a want. It can also, another definition of want is to be in want, to be in want, a state of lacking something, a state of extreme poverty or deprivation.

which I think is so great to think of your characters. If they may not be aware of this, but you as the creator, what state of deprivation, what is it, what in their life is in deprivation, whether they know it or not have a deficit, a shortage, a lack, a deficiency, a tightness, an absence, a missing, right?

Again, they may not say that to their friends. But you as the creator have a sense that this want is going to be born from something. The want is not random and not part of the psychology of your character. It's not incident. A want is very much of your character and this lack of this yearning, this thirst, this hunger.

The other, another great synonym for want that I was like, Oh, it's so great is envy. Envy is a great way to figure out what you want. Jealousy is an indicator that nature gives you to know what you want, right? Because you can see it much more clearly with the other person because they have permission, right?

Whereas you may not. So the last synonym pot was hunt or look for. So it's an active thing. It comes from a sense of deprivation or something missing. It turns into a thirst or a yearning or a hunger or craving, and it activates into a hunt. For a particular reason, seeking, search, look for, right? So wants are, they are active.

They drive the character. They drive the narrative. Which is why they're so, so important because they give your character agency. They make your character active. They have a want. They're not just reacting to things that every other character wants. They're actually creating the story with their want. And this is so important because so many emerging writers or first drafts of everybody, your character can be very reactive because the want is so buried because I guess we all feel like we are that character right so we're just aren't we just responding to life coming at us and hurtling at us.

Well, yes and no. You've created the life and what's hurtling at you. Not always, not every element, but a lot of it, right? And your wants are kind of what thing that's going to drive you to the next level and evolve you like we were talking about. So the other reason that wants are really important, I think, is I do think.

It is the doorway for the audience to connect to the character and therefore the story, I think even more important than wound. I'm not saying that you don't need to know the wound and the need, and it'll come out in the story in the first act wherever you want it to come out but if we can connect to the want emotionally, and we want it to, I don't think I can say that enough times.

If we want what the character wants, even though PS, it's not good for them. I don't know that in Act One. If I already know their want is not good for them, the movie's over. The movie is over because now I'm ahead of them, and I'm just waiting for them to figure out that their want is not right, but I am with them and understand what itch or yearning or hunger or deprivation this want is going to satisfy and I'm also like, that's a great idea, right?

Even if. You can look at a negative character or a or a TV show where everybody's kind of horrible people going after greed. That's fine. But that scene in that moment dealing with that father, I get it. I get How this want is going to deal with this situation between this character and his father and I want it for him, right?

I want his father to take a step back and see him or whatever it is that character is trying to do. So if you can learn, remember nothing else from today, make me want what your character wants. At least in the scene better yet, especially if it's a feature in act one, it was hard because we had to, and I'm sure you remember this Lorien and, to get the audience to agree with joy that sadness is bad for Riley was a hall man.

We have a whole montage in the movie about it right but I have to see the world the way Joyce sees it and her want to protect Riley. From being sad in this terrible time and to be joyful is something that we had the audience had to agree with. And the other thing to remember is the stronger the want, the stronger the drive.

So if you're an emerging writer, Just as a writing exercise, give them a big, strong, huge want and a big drive and just see what happens for yourself in your brain about that drive and that it versus they want just a teeny tiny thing. That's really high story math that actually takes huge story chops.

So, and we can talk about why our brains are not allowing our characters to want which is a bucket I want to get in but Lorien jump in.

Lorien: So I have a question about, we want. What they want. We want what the character wants. So I feel like there might be some confusion sometimes with writers when they do this, is that we're not asking the audience to literally want that thing for themselves.

We're asking them to want it for the character to want it for themselves. So the relatability in there, because when we have an antihero you look at the movie falling down. Is that the one where. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Douglas. Michael Douglas. Yes. We are with him. Even though he's not a well person, right?

And he's doing really bad things. And this is, but we want that for him. We want him to stand up and take control of his life. I haven't seen the movie in a long time.

Meg: We've been so Even in an anti hero movie, we're so kind of in the situation and the world they're in, and we've experienced the world the way they do, and the frustrations have been building, and building, and we're with them in all those frustrations, and our teeth are starting to clench, and our hands are starting to clench in the theater, because remember, we're The story is not asking you in that moment to think of yourself.

The story is asking you to go inside of this character and live life and have a catharsis to use the Greeks idea of it through them because it's an easier way, a psychologically safer way to have the catharsis than to do it in your life and blow up your life. Let's take out all my frustrations and the, I'm not going to take it anymore.

Let him do it like that. These characters can hold for us. are wants. They can be vessels that we can live through. And I know, yes, you're always told, write what you know, and if you have a hard time with wants, it's going to be hard to write a character that wants something. But I just want to talk about today, you do actually want stuff.

You may say to me and say to yourself, you don't. But that you do it's under there, you may not have access to it and we're going to talk about why you may not have access to it, but it is a daring act of bravery to write a scene of a character having a strong want if you are afraid of wants, do it.

It's just a cathartic experience for you on the page for you to start to see it's safe. And yes, Lorien 100%. It's about we want what the character wants for that character in that moment, you've created a world you created. All these incidents are not just random, it's, they're chosen to put the audience into that emotional state.

Of the main character.

Lorien: We also identify with their situation, right? In falling down. Yeah, I've had those experiences in traffic with co workers. I know what that character is feeling. So when he stands up, I keep saying stand up for him. I don't know why. When he's I'm not going to take it anymore. We wish we could do that in the version of our lives, in the version of our feelings for us, and that's what makes it aspirational.

That's how we identify, right? We're not, I don't really want to do what he's doing, but I wish in the context of my life, the frustrations I feel, how I feel powerless and oppressed, that I could do that, and that's why it's that catharsis.

Meg: And that's why it can be You know, Martians on Mars in a world that you've built a world that is not relatable the world, but it is relatable, because within that world, those are just metaphors for what the human condition is and human relationships.

and where we miscommunicate and where we're frustrated and where we're searching for and what we're hungry that hunger and thirst is still there be it an animated dog or a martian it doesn't matter those are vessels for the same thing and honestly a lot of the notes that everybody gets This is what the studio, the producers, the directors, the actors are trying to dig down into.

They're getting the top incidents, but they're not understanding or getting the juicy human underneath that, that those incidents are in there for those wants, those desires. And so much of your act one is setting up so that the reader, the viewer is in, we are in strapped in when Andrew Stanton says, when do I fucking love them?

I promise you, you're probably loving them for their longing and how they're going to go for it. Or their skill or, so it's, it is a very big part of your character in act one. Now there's different wants in terms of types of characters. And I talk about this sometimes, the claiming character, the person who's going to claim their power, let's say Moana, because it's the one that's in my head.

They are right in their want. It's the how and they think they want, from a to H, but actually the movie is going to show them. They can go all the way to Z that their want is just the tip of the iceberg of their power and what influence they can have over the world. So there's still an arc.

There's still a change, but it's much more about empowerment and giving them more than they ever thought they could want, but there's still a lot to start. You know what I mean? She's still singing a song about, I want to get off this island and sail. She's still feeling that longing. There's still a hunger in her, even though she has no idea and is telling herself she shouldn't want it.

But she is right. What she doesn't get is that it's not her. She thinks she has to go find someone to do the ultimate task. And the good thing is, guess what? You're going to do it. Like the universe sees you're much more powerful than you can even imagine that this little watch is just a door to something so much bigger.

And then there's more transformative characters. Let's say joy, who the want is not correct. The want is wrong. The want to keep sadness away. from those core memories is incorrect and the very fact that she wants it is what has created act two and this is really hard to get because even in early drafts it's a lot of incident that's creating act two that's the strongest thing and i'm not saying you can get it always but the strongest thing is no they created act two because that want actually kicked off this whole thing i mean that's what joy has to face at the end of act two which is holy shit i did this that doesn't always happen sometimes it can be incidental like I got swept away in a river.

But the question is, why were you down by the river? And what were you doing? Who were you chasing? And you still, the reason you got swept away you laid down those dominoes, right? So I do think that, and again, that's the harder act one, the transformative character, because you have to get the audience to agree.

With their want, even though your act two is going to show them and the audience that doesn't satisfy your need. As a matter of fact, it does the opposite. Sorry, Lorien, you wanted to say something?

Lorien: Yeah, when you're talking about our main character, why were they down by the river and Joy created her own problems.

This is what we're talking about when we say active character. Exactly. They are the ones driving the story. The plot. If that, if you weren't down by the river, you wouldn't have gotten swept away by it. Like, why were you down by the river? Your choice to go down there, what you were looking for, what you were hungry for down by the river.

What were you chasing to keep away from you? Because you're afraid of it. Whatever rather than I'm just taking a walk by the river and I get swept away, right? That's much different. That's an active then they become they go into the second act to world. And it's do I care? They didn't. It wasn't their fault.

Meg: And they become more of a victim.

And again, I'm not saying people aren't victims, but it's not a, it's not really why you want to watch the story. You want to watch the story, even if it's a victim story, we're watching for their response to it, right? What are they doing? And, I will often have, when I was doing consults, I would have people argue with me vehemently.

My character doesn't want anything that is their character. And I always just go, well, then you should go watch blue. Because she vehemently, her want is to want nothing. Her want is to shut down her life and feel nothing. And she's so active in doing it. She sells her house. She, I mean, it's unbelievably how active she is.

And how then that sets up the narrative because life is not going to let her do that because that's not how life works. So it's smashing into her resistance over and over. It's smashing in with the music, it's smashing in with the people she's meeting, it's smashing in and she's having to keep trying to resist the wave of life and wants coming back and being reborn.

So if you have a character who doesn't want anything, they still do. Not wanting things is an active want. All right, go ahead, Lorien.

Lorien: I have a character who wants things to be the way they were and wants to maintain a status quo that doesn't exist anymore. She's working so hard to recreate what was, but it's impossible.

But every time she does that, she fucks up something else and creates this like cyclone of fuckery, right? Because she has to move into, less comfortable coming out of that? And that will be her struggle. I want things to be the way they were. Which is tricky. And I'm really struggling with it because it's not an active.

I want things to be this way, or I want this for myself.

Meg: That's tricky. That's a high math. That's a high math one.

Lorien: So I've been struggling with it for quite a while, but it's Yeah, I'm trying to...

Meg: You would have to start with the definition for her specifically, what is how it was, what did that mean for her, what did that look like, how did it function, and how is she literally trying to create very specifically those things you mean like when you get into those situations I think the more specific you can get and dig into her brain versus another person who might be in that same want.

But they want it in a different way. They're the way it used to be could be completely different, right? So the other thing that I think is super important to talk about when you're talking about wants is that there are writers, including myself, who have a very hard time identifying want even in themselves.

This is a particularly true for women often, not just women. Women are enculturated not to want. We are enculturated to anticipate what other people want. We're enculturated to leave ourselves out and service everybody else's wants as the safe way to exist in the world. And that can be very tricky because you don't even know what a want feels like in your body anymore.

And now I'm telling you to give a character a want, it can feel super dangerous because that's not your safe space. It's a very vulnerable thing to want. It's a very vulnerable thing to want. And just to dig in that one more layer. And I'm speaking now of your characters. If so many people think their characters don't want anything and that's who they want their characters to be.

Especially emerging writers. So let's just take let and let's just go down that road a little bit so not finding yourself worthy to have a one.

If you say, I, my character absolutely doesn't want anything that my question to you be, why does that character not believe they're worthy enough to have one, have their needs been unmet for so long that they've pushed it away for so long. That they don't even have attack. They don't even know they're there anymore.

Because, when a child's needs are consistently not met or responded to, eventually they will stop wanting or even needing that because not getting met is too painful. So they turn those sensations in their body down. So a place to go look at your characters where do they feel unworthy?

Where did they take on the message? I don't matter. Doesn't matter what happens to me. My wants don't matter that they're in a state of deprivation. Not wanting is a state of deprivation, right? So you could ask your character those questions, because a character who is not wanting and just servicing has become expert at that.

They're picking their survival and safety over their want. And they, my friend once said to me, and she, I'll be honest, she was talking about me at the time, you've probably, that I'd become expert at having little wants. I was becoming really expert at having little wants because big ones just, I just felt like I didn't deserve it or I didn't feel possible.

It was too vulnerable, but wants are about being seen and validated and acknowledged. So if they're not met, then the brain starts to believe that needs are negotiable, which of course they are not right. So there's the want and the need coming in. Do you see how that dovetailed in? If you're not allowed to have wants because you're unworthy, behind the want is a need.

Suddenly the brain saying, well, my needs are negotiable. So suddenly your character who you say, oh, they don't want anything. What is going on there?

So to let your character have a want is to take back that character's agency and power to take back a sense of worth. And, I do think giving a character a want, if you just keep writing characters who don't want anything, I really want you to do a writing exercise with a character who boldly wants something. Boldly. Specifically. Because your brain needs to see that, yes, that doesn't mean that it's not guaranteed they'll get it, but it does create narrative tension, that uncertainty of them not getting it, that is the narrative tension.

And that's why they're the heroes because we may not be bold enough to want that, but they are, and yes, it may be the wrong want, but guess what? By the end of the movie, unless it's a tragedy, their need will get met. And that's far more important than the want getting met. So they get something incredible from that quote unquote, bad want there.

Aren't, so you have to, think of your character as somebody so beloved, that they're worthy enough to have that want. Sorry. Go ahead.

Lorien: Well, if it's, if you can't quite grasp that with your own character, or it's really painful and exercise is to use a character in a movie or a TV show that clearly has a want that you love, that you feel like you can write and create a scene with them so you can practice what it feels like to write a character with a strong want.

Out of context like you were writing a spec version of it. So Michael Douglas, how would you write a scene with him in a different confrontation, right? Or Black Panther, or Joy, or take a character that you love that you connect to. And write them wanting something. It feels really powerful to do that.

Meg: And your brain is going to be so happy. There's no stake. Your brain is going to be like, Oh my God, this is so much fun. And it's so much easier to write this. Than the shit that I've been writing where they don't want anything. The other thing, I had a great talk with a director at Pixar Dan, and we were talking about wants and, I said, Okay what's the I want song.

I'm not saying that the movie's a musical is not a musical doesn't have to be a musical whatever we're not talking about musicals, but I want songs. They, it has to be so specific and they have to sing it with passion and they're singing their doubts. And the, I want song becomes a pole of the movie.

So think about Hamilton. I'm going to, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, what is it? I'm not going to lose or waste my shot. Right. Well, what the hell is the end of the movie when he holds his gun? I mean, it's. It is the spine of that play, and of that movie, well it's a movie now of that musical.

What is the I Want song? Write it down, get as specific as you can. What are they singing? They're singing about their longing, their hunger, their thirst, the problem with getting it, their doubts about it, but they just can't help it. What does it give them? What does it make them feel like to imagine themselves having that want?

I think that's a really powerful way to think about a character's want is, another exercise you can do is, think of your fave three, your favorite three movies, close, close to your heart. You've seen them a million times and go look at those characters and what their wants are and how they handle it.

You might see a similarity in their track, how their wants are changing and track their perspective of that want track. I think that can help your brain see it again. Like you're talking about Lauren in a safe way, right? It's out there, right? It's not me. It's characters I love. And I think if you have trouble feeling lots.

Well, you can feel a lot. Like I was like, I can, I know what it feels like to want a cookie. Like I have wants, right? Like just know it in your body when it comes up, if you have trouble with it. Um, go Lorien.

Lorien: Just realized. So as you're talking and I'm thinking about my own life and my own wants, and I'm having some upsetting epiphanies over here.

And I realized the three movies that I always think of, and I have yet to be able to find like a really strong, clear thematic connection, but I realized in all three movies, the main characters are just trying to get back to the way things were in one way or another.

Meg: Well, what's great about that is that's your, that's so great.

Go figure out how they did it. Now you have a blueprint.

Lorien: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one is clearly the upside down bird, right? One is, not, doesn't fit. One is trying to vault over so fast, not having to do the work to just get way into the future. But the two with women as main characters are the ones just trying to like.

No, stop. The stop interrupting me. Some trauma happens to them and then they're like, ah, . And they're both they're all comedies, which is funny. So, but interesting. Interesting's awesome. And I look at my, and then I look at my own life and I'm like. Oh, okay.

Meg: Yeah, I know that'll happen.

Wants are gonna bring up. You're welcome. Wants are gonna bring it up. We talk about being an artist is evolving. This is gonna, it's gonna bring some things up for you to look at. Yeah, you can do, also do a writing exercise where if you're resistance to the want, okay, not the want itself, but if you're resistance to the want, Was personified.

Name it. What's it wearing? What's its attitude? Give it an really put it outside of yourself in front of you and find out what it wants. What's the danger of wanting, if why is it not safe? Let it talk to you and then do the same thing with your want personify it. Let it talk to you. Let it talk back to you.

So that you can start asking, get some objectivity. So on that stuff where it's saying you will die a fiery death, is that true? Not really. Like it might feel that way, but you're not actually going to die in that most meeting or whatever. You're not actually going to have a heart attack and die.

And the last thing in terms of wants, it's someone said to me once my friend Madeline, who also is the one who had the idea of thinking of yourself and your wants as you would a beloved person. Um, wants are about giving you meaning and purpose in your life. They're a big deal.

They're a big deal. And they lead you to your meaning and purpose. So, you can think about that too. If you have a character that you're like, they don't want anything. First of all, what's their fears of wanting? All the stuff we talked about. But also, ultimately, I know that you want your character to have meaning and purpose in their life.

If they were brave enough to want, where would it lead them? Where would it where would those wants leave them? If again, they're good wants and their wants that they should have. And if they're resistance wants, i. e. sadness cannot touch the core memories, God help us. What's the reverse of that is, Oh my God, sadness has to touch the core memories and I have to help her do it because I've learned the opposite of what I thought was true.

So, Jeff, do you have any questions? That's kind of what I had to say today about wants. Do you have any...

Jeff: I'm certainly thinking about like the unwitting hero, like that can be a tough one. I mean, like in Harry Potter, he's thrust into being chosen into this role and it feels like he doesn't want to be the hero.

But he's thrust into it. It's like his want is to just be normal. And I think I'm kind of asking this because I've been mulling around with this story where I'm interested in this character who like, is dealing with baggage that his hometown knows about and he wants to move and just be normal and let go of that.

So I, I don't know. I think is that a one you ever encounter where like someone wants to just repress their specialness? I don't know if that's...

Meg: I mean, sure. I mean, again, high math. I'm not, meaning if it's hard, there's a reason it's hard because it's super high math. It's much easier to have Aladdin sing and look at the castle and say, I'm not just a rug rack and fuck you while I wish I was somebody else.

And then guess what happens? Here comes a genie. You want to be somebody else? Let's see how that works out for you. And you're kind of right. You're kind of wrong, right? You're longing is right. But the, how you're talking about doing it is kind of wrong. Let's take that on a spin. That's much easier to do, right?

If you're doing the thrust in, the reason that's high math is you have to keep Harry active. He can't just be responding to everybody, right? He can't, that is going to get really boring, right? So if you said to me, write that movie, I would look at Harry Potter. I'd look at four other characters who are beloved, who have thread that needle.

And how did they do it? How did they do it? There's a craft to that. There is a artistry to keeping me attached to that character. And, Harry Potter, it's because he is special and he's the chosen one. I mean, that's a whole sub genre. Chosen one stories are tricky. Chosen one stories are a whole genre and I am sure there's story math in order to make them active.

There's resistance to it. That they don't, I'm thinking of hunger games, right? Like she doesn't want to be the leader, but you know, my God, after the third movie of her saying, but I don't want to lead, I'm like, Oh Jesus Christ, like just fucking lead already.

Lorien: Like when you look at a TV show, like Buffy, the vampire slayer, she does not want to be the vampire slayer. So how she navigates being the vampire slayer and how she tries to navigate being, Just a normal high school girl. And how each season, the stakes were raised. And then, eventually I think season four started to get really self destructive, it's sort of that balance, that conversation constantly between I don't want to be the chosen one. I am the chosen one and identity. As my takeaway is very high math.

Meg: There's a big difference though between Harry Potter and Buffy because Buffy, she just wants to be normal. So then immediately my writer brain goes, well, what's normal to her?

How do you make me want that for her? How do you give me a scene that I see these seductive juice and the warm bath of being normal? And then. Okay. Pull it away from her. And why do I really not want to be the vampires there? I still have to want those things, right? I can't be watching her and thinking, fuck girl, go be a vampire slayer.

That's so much more cool. Like you have to make me want to be normal. That's a high math story math and figure that one out. Whereas Harry Potter, his life sucks. He's living under the steps. We all want him, he is horrible family. We want him to get out of, there is no subtlety, and I mean this in a good way, to that family being a bunch of dickheads, right to him.

So, what do we want? To be not with them, to not be them, to not be everything they say I am. They are defining him over and over. You're just this. You're nothing. You're nothing. Your value and self worth is nothing. And then somebody comes along and goes, they're wrong. Not only are you something, you're the most important something.

So even though Harry might be like, that's a little bit scary. That's a lot of responsibility. We all fucking want that for him, and I'm sorry, some part of him, whether he's admitting it or not, wants it too. I can, all of us want that. All of us want to be the chosen one. It's, it would be scary, and that's the story, that's the narrative, which is like, how, what does that mean?

Who the hell is this guy? You mean I'm gonna have, maybe I'll just have friends, but maybe I don't want, because there's a lot of people who don't want me to be the chosen. There's problems, there's challenges, there's narrative difficulty to being the chosen one, but it's very specific where they start him, like under the steps, like it's not subtle because it's great because it's fairytale.

So it's, there is a want there, there is.

Lorien: Yeah, but Jeff, to your question about wanting to be normal, right? Again, Meg's point about, well, what is normal giving him? Is it running away from shame, being exposed? What is the real conflict that's happening, right? Because Buffy, there's a, it's a much different conversation.

Because there is wish fulfillment and being a vampire slayer, but we also do want her to be able to be normal.

Jeff: That's a great, I think. Yeah. I think the story I'm looking at basically there's a family member in his family. He's very sick. And so everyone places victim status on him. Oh, I'm so sorry.

This must be so hard. And he wants to just create a life where he feels like he can be normal and not have to bear the burden of that family member's illness. So it's, I think he's running from shame. I don't know if that's ...

Meg: so this is a little tricky and this is now and I'm not saying this about your story, Jeff, because I don't know your story.

So I'm just hanging off of that.

Jeff: Story is not working. So...

Meg: well, don't take this as a note because I haven't read your stuff and don't write a log line.

Jeff: Yeah.

Meg: Be very careful, especially emerging writers or all of us that you're not psychologically protecting yourself by giving the true challenge, problem, need, and want to the other character that your main character has to deal with.

Being ill is the other character's problem. So you already have a hollow character because your logline that you just pitched intuitively was about the other character,

Jeff: Right. I know I'm realizing that during this.

Meg: So, you know what I'm saying? So, and this is so normal that you, a first draft, a barf draft, you don't even realize you don't have the main character, right?

That the main character is the person that you were watching, right? That this character was watching, right? And that, and the young writers do this a lot. Where I mean an age now and I didn't say I said young on purpose because they are still so young that they believe their life is all the fault of their parents, right?

And maybe a lot of it is. So their stories are about their parents and why can't their parents change? Why can't their parents see them? Why can't their parents change what they did from that trauma that separated the family or whatever, right? Because they're, they have a question about Why the fuck did that happen?

Why the fuck didn't you see me? Why the fuck didn't you recognize me? All of that stuff, right? Very legitimate. But as a story You're trying to tell, not you Jack, a writer is trying to tell the story of the parent, but their experience is not of the parent. They're trying to rehabilitate the parent. Again, I'm not saying this is your story.

It's not. It's just something that we're bringing up. That's tricky, man, because that's not your story to tell. I'm not saying you can't tell that story, but if you're 20 years old, the stronger story to tell is yours. So I had a friend and we were going to write something together based on his life in which super religious and his mother in his mind as a teenager, I'm not saying this is what happened, came home and said, I don't, I'm not religious anymore and I'm leaving the family.

And so he wrote many drafts of a script from her point of view. Why would she do that? What was it like, to discover that, to discover these things about her, which is a very wonderful, valid movie, by the way, I'm not saying don't do that movie. But when I was like, John, why don't you write it from your point of view of a teenage boy whose mother walked out of the house?

And his father didn't handle it well. And suddenly he's the adult and has to take care of all these kids and stay in the religion and suddenly decides, well, then I'll just be God. Fuck it. Then, and suddenly he's in the Sundance lab. Again, I am not saying you can't write this story about the mother, but that is not where his brain was.

All of his juice, all of his lava was standing on the other side of that. So if you're writing, you're trying to make better what the trauma from the other character's point of view, that is not going to get to the lava as quickly as you're want in that moment, right? As that shit was coming down on you.

So, I'm just feeling a sense of that in what you pitched Jeff. You know what really, where is the power of the story? And again, we can talk about that offline, but I dunno if that, is that helpful what I'm saying?

Jeff: Very. Yeah. And this is all very new. This thing I'm sure, like this is, I'm choosing to write again. after this.

Meg: It's bubbling up.

Jeff: Yeah.

Meg: You need to barf it out and see who's walking around.

Jeff: Yeah. And I'm excited it'll be. I can write. I'm like, just looking for it. I haven't written in a while, but it, I actually am feeling that itch again, which is good. It's there.

Meg: Yeah, me too. Lorien, anything to add?

Lorien: No, I'm just, I have a lot of work to do.

Jeff: I know. Yeah.

Meg: No, don't we all.

Lorien: As always. No. Not in terms of I have to go in terms of every time I hear you talk about craft and the way that you do and how you talk about it. It always makes me realize something about my work, about how I approach my work, the writing, the storytelling and my own life and how it's so connected and how that's so much right what you know, and and then I always leave these conversations like, okay, I got to look at all this stuff.

I have to look at my stuff. Personally, I got to look at what I'm writing and how I'm writing it. I have to ask deeper questions.

Meg: Sometimes when I'm listening to you and we're on, we're doing these deep dives. Sometimes characters will start flashing up in my head either that I've written in the past or that are brand new or characters I was thinking of.

And I just write them down because immediately while it's up and walking around, I want to just let them talk, right? I might do nothing with it, but if anything flashed up Lorien, and I guess I'm saying to everybody, if when we do these deep dives, stuff is flashing up. Don't get intellectual about it.

Don't get intellectual and be like, well, I'm going to write down notes. And, but because your brain is trying to get out of that back into its intellect, if we've gotten you in this podcast over to the right side of your brain, and that stuff's rising up. Be brave enough to go barf it out.

Just get a notebook and write whatever comes in. The characters who are meeting and talking doesn't matter. No one's ever going to see it. Let it come up because it can be hard to get the lava up. And if this podcast did it, which it did it for me, because I struggle with this too do it, let's do it.

Lorien: Yeah. I got a note yesterday that I need her to have a win. And I was like, okay, that's easy enough. I can do that surgically. But then listening to this and I. And I figured out what the wind needs to be and how it relates to her wants and the theme and cause right. Scenes are flashing. And I realized I'm really afraid to let her have a win.

I'm really afraid for there to be tenderness in this. I'm really afraid. And so I was like, Oh, well, that's what I have to go toward. I that's my lava in this project. I can write trauma until it. I don't know, but anyone comes home or no one comes home, right? But having, letting her have a win that's tender, which is what will make this story work and make the audience want to lean in and be into it, right?

And what happens in the next episode, it, but it's terrifying. I think it's the thing I'm most afraid of. Oh, I have to do it. Like genuine, real care and tenderness. Like I'm so good at just barreling through the world.

Meg: But go ahead and open a new document to do that and let it be as long as it wants.

Let it not

Lorien: match. I'm going to write it by hand. I have to write it by hand when I get hair.

Meg: Yeah. Don't let your intellect say, well, it has to fit within this and this, like it may not be the scene.

Lorien: But I totally, I agree with you. I have to write it by hand. I have to see what's really in there because when I write by hand, I literally hunch over my whole desk with my hand around my head, just, and I write and write.

Sometimes I can't even read what I've written after. And I like to write on grid paper. So I don't have the lines telling me what to do. And and then I always get at something.

Meg: What's funny is your third rail is tenderness and mine, what I, all of a sudden they get really angry.

They get ragey, man. They get fucking ragey.

Lorien: Yeah.

Meg: Yeah. Cause you know, I wasn't allowed to be mad as a kid. So girls aren't allowed to be mad either. So it's really fun to take on a character. Super easy.

Lorien: Anger was the go to for me

Meg: to take on a character who's mad is so much fun.

Because it's my third rail to just have her be like, fuck you. I don't care what you think. I'm sometimes taking the opposite is so fucking, it's just changes your brain chemistry. Cause it's like the world didn't end when she was like, Yeah. You think I'm selfish. Yeah. Guess what? I am. I don't fucking care.

Bye bye. Now. Yes, of course she has to evolve and balance out. She's out of balance. I'm not saying she's not, but I'm just saying if you, I don't know, there's liberation to those third rails, like the tenderness might feel dangerous, but it might be liberating too. So.

Lorien: I'll let you know later this afternoon when I text you.

Oh no, guess what happened?

Meg: All right. Thank you for all of that. Thank you guys. So thanks for tuning in. And if you haven't yet joined our Facebook group we have got lots of great discussions going on over there.

Lorien: And please write us a five star review on Apple podcasts, and that will really help us be able to do more of these.

Meg: Join our Patreon. We're going to, we're really trying to get back to you guys in more specific ways and get more hands on help for you guys with

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.

Jeff: Thanks as always to Meg and Lorien for that amazing episode and thanks as always to all of you for tuning into the screenwriting life We would not do this show if it weren't for you.

So we're just so grateful for your listenership and in that interest I'd love to read some Apple podcast reviews in case you guys didn't know We'd love it when you all get on Apple podcasts and write us a review we're a missional show and it goes a long way for us if you choose to write a review, so I'm going to start by reading some reviews.

Alright, I'm going to start with Shal Hoop, who says, This is it. As an emerging writer, I'm thirsty for information and community. So far, I've been humming through a handful of other screenwriting podcasts that are full of success stories and great guests, sure, but I've found true nuggets I'm seeking are few and far between.

It's the nitty gritty and the tell me like it is approach to this podcast, along with the humility and real life. and real time examples that are so incredibly helpful. And if the comfy nature of Meg and Lorienn's conversation doesn't feel, quote, community enough for you, they also have a Facebook group.

I'm soaking in all the generosity of that group. If you're also starting out and want to grow in this profession at hyperspeed like I do, this podcast is it. Montreal Lady says, Phenomenal. Each episode is consistently phenomenal because Meg and Lorienn are so authentic, so experienced, so talented, and so generous in sharing their process and insights with their listeners.

Each episode feels like it's meant just for me at that moment, and I know I'm not alone in that feeling, which is just one part of the magic that is this podcast. There's so much to learn no matter how experienced you are. What a beautiful review. Thank you so much. Before we wrap out, I just wanted to offer one more reminder that this Wednesday is our micro budget feature filmmaking workshop on our Patreon.

So our top tier patrons will be watching the feature film that I wrote and directed this summer, and we'll be going over in detail how I put it together. So If any of you have ever had that itch to direct or kind of wondered how you might be able to see your work get made on a reasonable budget, this would be the Patreon workshop for you.

And you can join at patreon. com slash the screenwriting life and sign up at our top tier for access to the movie and the workshop. All right, until then, make sure you all keep writing and have a great week.