214 | How TV Writers, Directors, and Actors Work Together ft. Jon Huertas

Though he's perhaps best known as Miguel on This Is Us, Jon Huertas has been a TV staple for decades, having worked on broadcast, cable, and streaming, both in front of and behind the camera. With such a deep well of experience, Jon has incredible advice for TV writers in today's conversation.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Live. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. And today we're really excited to be welcoming veteran actor turned director Jon Huertas to discuss his incredible work in front of the camera and behind the camera, especially in TV.

Meg: As an actor, Jon has done just about everything you can do from small guest roles to series regulars on beloved network hits, including playing Detective Javi Esposito on Castle and Miguel Rivas on This is Us.

Lorien: In addition to acting, Jon has added directing to his resume, including directing episodes of This Is Us and other shows like The Rookie, Feds, and Tracker. Jon is joining us today to discuss his career as well as how different departments of TV production like actors and directors work with writers. Hi Jon, welcome to the show.

Jon: What's happening? Thank you for having me.

Meg: We're really excited to jump into our conversation, but before we do, Jon, I believe you've agreed to talk to us about your week or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. Are you up for it?

Jon: Sure.

Meg: All right. Good. Lorien, you go first. How was your week?

Lorien: My week? I had a really good week. One reason is that I'm really struggling with the engine of a pilot I'm writing and I have been trying really hard to recognize what those struggles are so that I can just notice what they are like, Oh, I don't know what the fucking show is.

How can I write it? If I don't know what the show is, which is, I don't have an engine, like I have a great concept of great characters, but what is the show? So I'm having to figure out what worked for me in the past, talking it out with a friend, trying not to overcomplicate the outline. So I'm in these steps right now.

And then I realized today that what I need to be doing, which is what I'm doing is just writing the scenes that I love that I have in my head and not worrying about those scenes, those like the big engine and stuff, just what are the scenes? Hoping that will inspire me to write the scenes.

So something else that might shake something free in terms of what the engine is so that I don't overcomplicate it because if I get too stuck in the setup and act one and how to kick it off I, I lose everything. It becomes mathematical instead of creative stuff. So right now I'm just playing.

I've gotten through all that. I don't know what it is. I figured out what it is. This is what it is. I'm overcomplicating it. I don't know what it is. So now I'm just going to go be in the play space which is really fun for me. The other thing that's cool that's happening is I wrote this play a while ago and an actress, writer, director, friend of mine read it and she's great, let's do it.

So she reached out to a producer and I have a producer attached. They're both producing it And I'm like, great. I need to rewrite it. They have put together a cast of actors who are all so beautiful and talented. I'm having a little nervousness about it. We're going to do a zoom reading this weekend of the play so I can hear it out loud.

And then I'm going to rewrite it and then they're like, let's do a staged reading next and let's find. People who want to give us money because it's theater to put the play on. So right now with the industry being the way it is and not a lot of hiring and work out there, it feels really good to be doing something, right?

That's in the industry still, that I can still feel like I'm rewriting something. And it's, Let's put on a show. So that's very much my mood this week is let's just put on a show. So that's my week. In addition to the fact that we have mice in my house. So that's the bad thing, which is super disgusting.

And I'm working on that. So good stuff, bad stuff. It's all good. Anyway, So Jon, how was your week?

Jon: It was good. No mice. But good. And they're, mice aren't disgusting. They're just, they're coexisting.

Lorien: The poops.

Jon: It's only if they poop in your food.

Lorien: Pooping is disgusting. The pooping in your food part, that's disgusting.

Jon: But they can be very cute. Yes, of course. So my week has been interesting. Good. Always. I've been getting ready to go off and direct a show. So I've been watching all of the episodes of this first season of the show. And finding in the episodes, things that I will definitely not do as a director, cause it's not the stuff that I love, but then also Jonreally getting a sense of what kind of story they're trying to tell and trying to stay within their color within their lines.

And just getting a sense of the rhythm of the storytelling and the rhythm of the show and the look and feel and tone. So doing that a bunch of so it's like research. We, I, my producing partner who's also been my manager for many years, Sherry Marsh, and I set a show up at E1 before the strikes and hired a writer and she turned her pages in two days before the strike.

And of course, the strike happened and E1 got bought by Lionsgate. So of course we thought it was dead. And now we are about to take it to market with Lionsgate. The writer just turned in her final pages. It's taken a while to get here, but we're really happy with it. It's based on a book. So we're going to market soon, but literally just this past week read her final set of pages, which are great.

Anything else? A couple cool meetings met with Wilmer Valderrami yesterday. We have some cool things that we're putting together. Other than that I have a couple of things that I'm working on yet to find writers, but what I do because I am, I've written as well and had a little bit of success kept me from going back into the military at one point because I was able to make some money doing it.

But so I. I conceive of ideas and I usually put together my own first story area and then build the show and then find a writer who wants to work with me and who likes the idea and let them take some ownership and take my pages.

Make them their own. And, we have a couple of shows. I'm working with Julia Cohen on a show like that. If you ever worked with Julia or Charles Murray, we have another show at Amazon that we did. I did that with him. So I have a new show that I'm trying to do right now, which is really cool, but it's based on the first thing that ever directed.

Once we get, once we hear everyone else's week, if you want to ask me about that, I'll tell you about it. But the first thing I ever technically ever directed, it's based on that. I'm going to throw it to Meg now.

Meg: So my week is But it runs the gamut of, I think it is a great little piece of what it feels like to be a writer all in at once, meaning I wrote a movie that crossed the billion dollar line and is now the biggest box office that Pixar's ever had, which is insane considering the level of movies at Pixar.

So you have that big high in terms of. Oh my gosh, it worked! Oh my gosh! because writers, sometimes we're just like, let's try this! Does that work? So I'm very excited for the director, Kelsey Mann and the whole team. So that's amazing. I went to a screening, answered questions.

Thank you. It's just like the high of highs. And at the exact same time, a project I worked on for, I don't know, a year and a half, died. It was one of those, one of those passes we'd like to go in a completely different direction. And so my husband and I were writing together, we were like, or we could just step off because we gave you the direction we would like to do.

So they, on one hand it's a relief because it was an uphill battle, but on the other hand, you guys know when you write something or you create something or you have an idea. When it dies, there is a mourning process because those characters die. I mean, they die, like they're not going anywhere ever.

So that's, I'm moving through that a little bit and I'm surprised how much I'm missing those characters a little bit, honestly. And then at the same time, Jon, you and I are going to be competing cause I'm also going to market with a project, which is a project. I wrote, I don't know. Eight years ago that came back to life.

I rewrote it with my husband for A & E. We did two episodes. We did a format. And here we go. Talking to an actor today. To attach perhaps and go out and TV's crazy because you do all this work and then in a weekend, like literally like within the day. It either lives or dies. It's just crazy. Joint features, it's this long, drawn out experience of going studio to studio.

And it could be like six months. It could be, now let's attach somebody. It just goes on and on. Not on TV. The good and bad of it is. It's living or dying this week. So or next week, I guess. So I'm excited. I'm excited and nervous

Lorien: Isn't that the theme for this episode of sort of like we all have projects that we wrote a while ago or worked on a while ago that are sort of coming back. It feels like Meg, in a way, like those characters that you missed for the project, all the characters that we missed from old projects. Those sort of themes and those rivers don't ever dry up right they sort of divert and I'm so good with metaphors just like you're welcome everybody those streams sort of divert and come back into our

Meg: There is one relationship in the movie that died that I want to bring somehow back somehow I just it's so a part of my heart that I don't I just I'm like I can't believe they didn't get it so Jon let's talk about you because I'll just rant for a while Let's talk about I want to hear about this movie that was the first thing you directed that's now come back to life in a different form.

Jon: So the first thing I directed was a short film. And I came up with the idea while it was in Africa shooting the David Simon project. And I, first of all, I got the bug to direct while I was there too, because we had a director that showed up to set who wasn't. That prepared me.

And I remember because I was one of the leads in the show, I was privy to a lot of the conversations between the director and the DP and producers and stuff like that. And so we were starting our morning out and this director walked up and said, what are we going to shoot today? And the. DP was like, what do you mean?

And I guess it had been going on and he was pissed and he walked off and was going to quit. So one of the producers had to talk him off a ledge. And part of me was like if a person if this director can get an 80 million job for HBO. Then I can do it because I know I'll show up prepared every time.

And I had been chomping at the bit to, to direct. I wanted to direct I took my first cinematography class in high school and in 11th grade. And so I, but I thought I should get some, find success in one thing before I try to bite off something else. And so I came up with the concept of this first short film and then I didn't, wasn't able to get it on its feet until I was, I think we were in the second or end of the first season or second season of Castle.

I thought why not create a short film? Like, why not? Why? It should be something like is it the birth of a feature? Is it, or is it a concept for a television show? And I said, let's make it a concept for a television show. And I directed it. Never took it anywhere. It got distributed actually through this thing called shorts TV which distributes all of the Oscar nominated short films and all of the Oscar winning short films every year.

Jon: And so I got it, distribution. That's it. We premiered at the Palm Springs international film festival. And somebody came up to me and said, Hey man, have you ever thought about distribution? I was like, for a short film? And they were like, yeah, we love it. We think it would have some, it can have some legs out there.

I'm like, cool, whatever. So we put it out there. I'm sitting, you guys know who Jeff Stoltz is? So Jeff Stoltz and I have been really good friends for years and we were sitting at lunch and he was like, and I directed him this past year on a show called the company you keep. And he sat down with me and he was like, Hey man, I really, we've been such great friends for so many years.

We've never worked together on screen. It's going to be cool for us to do something on screen that we were, we played like buddies and friends. Like we are. I was like, that would be cool, man. And I wonder what, when, what kind of project we could ever find. And I was like, wait a minute.

This short film that I shot is a buddy kind of action thing. And it's a modern day re-imagining of the Lone Ranger. And it was called Lone and it's set in the present day. And instead of the two characters, Jonthe Lone Ranger and Tonto, instead of them being Jonone of them being a former Texas Ranger, these two guys are both former army Rangers who had gone into the military.

Together the buddy system got deployed and were caught up in this operation where they're blamed for the slaughter and murder of an Afghani family and they go AWOL slash desert and they end up in the last great wilderness and wild lands that our country has backwoods of Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, California, wherever, and they're on horseback, basically hiding out from the people trying to chase them down, which are the government and particularly a couple of CID, Army CID agents. But then there's the CIA and there's all these, this intrigue that's a part of it. And because they're good guys in their hearts, but they're living amongst the underbelly of society.

They're always witness to bad things going down and they can't stand idly by so they intervene and they leave a trail of good in their wake and they become these like kind of folklorish heroes so that when these agents try to find them in this town that they're suspected to be in local law enforcement won't only give them a hand because local law enforcement's Hey man, we heard they saved a girl that was kidnapped two towns over or whatever.

Bye bye. And so it's this kind of procedural, I like to call it a prestigial kind of story because it's got an ongoing linear kind of serialized story, underlying story to it, but it also has a close ended. Every episode is a rescue or some sort of an...

Lorien: It has an engine.

Jon: Yeah. We're working on that. And that's going to be like the next, one of the next things that we take out.

Meg: Do you Use the short film or do you think you'll start fresh?

Jon: Starting fresh. So I've been working on the pages for it. And tersing out all the characters and deepening them.

And, he's got our lone ranger, which is just Dan, that would be Jeff. He has a wife who is a former intelligence officer who they hadn't seen each other for years. We don't, we think they haven't seen each other in years. But you know, she's from her side trying to clear his name and that's where she gets kind of in trouble in her own world with the CIA part of it.

And then, I said to him, We don't think that he's seen her for a while, but we find out, and that would be like, this would be the contention between the two lead characters who are best friends. That he snuck off and has actually sat down at a diner with her. It's also put them in jeopardy because they're supposed to stay off the grid.

And Dan won't let Jimmy, who would be my character, won't let Jimmy grab a beer at a bar. But you'll go off and see your wife at the diner without telling me that's some bullshit. So like those kinds of conflicts, we're trying to build moments like that.

Lorien: Sounds super fun. So you're going to direct it and act in it?

Jon: I'll direct episodes at some point. I won't direct the pilot. I'll focus on being an actor on the show. I think at the beginning and up in an EP, obviously I'll guide, help guide the, what, Jonwhat the show is going to be. But I want to say, Will you pitch it Or will you hire a writer to write the pilot?

We'll bring a writer on, I think, to write the pilot. Usually I'll, I have a pilot idea. And JonI want to meet a writer that or bring a writer in, just like to show, as a concept, and then we can chop it up and remix it and then take it out.

And usually what I'll do, what I do right now with television with my company is that kind of platform. I'll tell my personal connection why I want to tell the story. And then I'll platform the writer will go and pitch the show. And then any questions, then I'll, Jonwhen it comes to the Q and A part, I'll weigh in with answers along with the writer.

And go from there. That's usually how we do

Meg: it.

It sounds great. Can we start when you're an actor and I would definitely want to talk to you as a director as well, but let's just start with the acting. Can you talk about the relationship between the actor and the writer, on a film set or a TV set especially if TV where the actor has a little bit more producorial creator experience than, say, on a film set, obviously, but what is that?

Jon: Yeah, a little more Collaboration, I guess.

Meg: Yeah.

Jon: Yeah I, it's funny. On a film a lot of times we don't get to even meet the writer especially if they were like the first writer and it's been rewritten a bunch of times depending on whose draft we're shooting now. But a lot of times on film, in film, back in the day anyway, we wouldn't even meet a writer.

I think more often than not now, like one of my best friends is Jon Spades who wrote the Dune movies. And so he's on set. Cause also his brain is wrapped around in this world and wrapped around how he's adapted this book that has so much in it. So his, like he, I think he understands the story a little bit better than Dennis does.

So when Dennis has questions, he wants to be able to bounce off Jon. So I know that he's on set all the time, but there are other movies that I know he shot where he wasn't on set. And so I don't think it all depends on the director because In film it's the director's Medium and in television, it's the writer's medium, right?

I think on film it's, you kind of understand what your piece of the film is or your role, how it contributes to the storytelling. And you've spent a lot for me and what I've ever done, whenever I've done a film, you get to spend a lot more time with the script and with the story.

And then if you do have questions, you bring up to the director and, or writer, if the writer's there. With television what I love about television is there, it is a More collaborative process with the writers than it is in film because, Jonif you're going to tell a story for more than, Jonmore than two hours, Jonyou're obviously, Jonif it says if you've got an order, you're going to do probably at least eight hours or 10 hours or 13 hours or 22 hours of that season.

It's there's a lot it's deeper, you can go deeper into the character, you can go deeper into the story, and and you can also, hopefully they've hired you because you they like what you're bringing to the character as far as choices go, so maybe let's have the actor work with you.

involved in the arc of the character, the arc of the first season over the life of the show. And that's like on This Is Us, I sat down with Dan Volgaman and Isaac and Elizabeth every season to help, Joncreate what Miguel's arc was going to be. Which was amazing and fun and the best experience I've had as an actor with writers, really they took pieces of who I was in my past, my story and helped color Miguel, but then also used some of it for some of the other characters too.

Which was interesting and great and cool to see Randall's character get a piece of my backstory that was Jon made me cry when I watched it. But The lesson here is, writers will take everything. Everything. And use it somewhere. Doesn't work for that character.

Lorien: I'm going to move it over there. I remember on my very first TV set as a writer, and I was just a staff writer at the time, the actor had a question and it was crazy to me because she, I was used to being on film sets and she turned and asked the show runner and I was like, wait, what's happening? How does that work as an actor?

Meg: If you've got a director in front of you, but you also have the show runner or the writer who wrote the episode on set. I'm curious as an actor and as a director, how does that work? Because it comes, it's a little bit different, or is it not in your experience?

Jon: It is different. JonI think the relationship you have with the writer in television is one, it's a deeper relationship, right?

The director is usually a guest director unless it's the producing director. But if it's the, if it's a guest director and it's specifically a question about your character and if it has if it's a question that pertains to a character that's. Going to then affect the future of your character or it's coming from the past of your character.

The guest director doesn't know necessarily because in prep, you don't get, you prep is, for a director is pretty intense. Like you're, a lot of location stuff, a lot of casting stuff, a lot of production design stuff. And you're, you get your, and then this episode is just this episode stuff for the most part.

And there are certain things that you might. learn from the writer of that episode or the showrunner that you have to understand from previous episodes and you have to understand for future episodes, but it's not as deep as what the showrunner and the writer's room knows when it comes to your character and how it fits into the storytelling.

So yeah, I would like, it's one of those things you have to There's the choice, the immediate choice that you're making as an actor for this moment in this scene, that might be, that's where the question should be posed to the director, but then if it's deeper, if it's more long game, if it's about the character's past, I think that's when you say, I've got to talk to the writer, I've got to talk to the showrunner or whoever's there that's I guess how I would answer that question.

Meg: That makes sense.

Jeff: It's interesting, Jon, hearing you talk about the depth that TV allows you to dig into as both a writer and an actor. I mean, like you were in Castle for eight seasons. That's hundreds of episodes. And I will say that the show is the lifeblood of my in-laws.

Like that word, that show is so important to them. So thank you for the work you've done. People adore that show. But what's interesting about procedurals is. There's kind of something in the DNA where people also sort of want the same thing every week. And as an actor, there's this expectation that we're going to get the same hobby every episode.

So can you talk about both how as an actor, you keep that interesting and rich for yourself across eight years of TV, and advice for our writers who are writing procedurals, or maybe staffed on procedurals, to kind of keep things interesting on their end as well.

Jon: I mean, I think for what, so on Castle, I would also speak to the writers and say, I'd really like to see some growth in the character.

I'd like to see some stuff come from his past and you, and we know it's a procedural, what the game is as actors, I think that are on procedurals, but if there's any kind of character that you can put into a scene, even if you're, I did say this pretty much the same line every episode, which was the canvas came up empty.

So if I'm going to say that, cause it's usually there's a murder. And you've got a canvas in the neighborhood. So usually it's either you or one of the uniformed officers going to come up to me and say the canvas came up empty. But then I got to report that to somebody. This officer told me the canvas came up empty.

So I'm still going to be saying the line in some way. And I think figuring out how to do it with character meaning like even Me and the other actors make it interesting by saying, Hey, look, I got to come up and say the same line again. But let me say it with the idea that we've just gotten out of our patrol car and we had an argument about what donut shop to stop on the way to the.

To the precinct. And so we've got that going on when we walk into the scene. So it's the moment before, right? Create a moment before, don't just come into a scene. It's just about the scene. What was the moment before? And the moment before sometimes could be, I just got off the phone with my mom who's in the hospital.

So I'm thinking about something else when I'm talking about the canvas, or, I've got some animosity towards my partners. And when I come up, there's a layer there. It's about the case, it's about, this poor person who was murdered or whatever, but there's something else going on, which then makes it interesting for the actor and me.

And then we figured out how to play that throughout the whole episode. In every scene, I've got that layer that we still haven't gotten over the argument we had about the freaking donut shop. So even in act, three or four, if I, if there's something else and I know that we've, then we'll have a conversation.

Me and Mike, the guy that put my partner, Seamus, we would have a conversation like, let, did we have another argument? Like when we were in the bathroom at the urinals are we arguing with each other? So that we know that we had that R and who won the argument. So now when we do the scene, we know as characters.

So then it made us more interested. And then we would, sometimes it would bleed and we'd come up with a bit for us in, within a scene because Castle was a dramedy. So we were able to do that. We'd have a bit that was humorous or funny. And I think that's you know, why your in laws love the show is because it's not just a straight procedural.

It's something that has a, Lot of levity to it. And it was because Nathan, myself and Seamus in particular, we're always trying to find places to put a fun bit or something, and some, and which usually came from character, like our, Oscar and Felix relationship or Castle being just a buffoon and us being the audience's kind of voice for that to call him out.

Meg: Those are the best procedurals. I love all those small details and character relationships. Amazing.

Lorien: It's also something we as writers need to be thinking about all the time too. Like, where did my character just come from? What are they bringing from the last scene into this scene? And it's a way to keep the scenes connected so that you're not just bouncing around, right?

So each decision, each action and choice in the last scene informs the next scene, right? Narrative drive, right? Actors as an actor, you're looking for that as well and trying to find it if it's not existing. And this is why that's so important.

Jon: We'll break down scenes. I do anyway. And it's still to this day.

And it's about figuring out what my character's objective is in that scene. And then what is my character's objective in the overall story? And I think that every single character should be, should have an objective. I don't care if it's just the pizza delivery guy, the guy that comes in and is just delivering a pizza, like what is his objective?

And most likely it's that his objective is to deliver the hottest pizza Fastest fucking pizza that these characters have ever fucking tasted in their lives. And so if he's got that energy, when he, when you, when the characters are in the middle of this crazy argument, the doorbell rings and the guy just goes grab the pizza.

Imagine you're breaking from whatever that tension is and going to the door and there's this pizza delivery guy there. And now that he knows his objective, he's there like breathing hard and heavy. And when he reaches for the pizza box, he's ouch. There you go. And then the anticipation of taking the hot box and put it in someone else's hands and watching and seeing how they react to the hot box of pizza.

So now the other, if the actor, is in it and sees, and understands the objective of that character, then that actor takes the box. Ooh, wow. It's so

Lorien: clear. You're a director, right? It's so clear. Like you're making it up as you go along, like writing it and directing it and like talking about tension and conflict.

So like when you're a director and you're directing, say, an arc on a show, or even just one episode. What is your relationship with the showrunner in terms of that collaboration? Making some of these choices. What's helpful? What's not helpful?

Jon: I mean, I always say to the showrunner I'm looking forward to collaborating with you on this because if we can, if we do this right, we're going to elevate this episode.

We're going to elevate the show. It's all about elevating, right? We want people to, especially if it's a procedural, I don't want them to feel like I just saw this episode two weeks ago, or I saw the same episode last season, every, and for me, I want every episode to be different and special in some way.

And that's why I think you bring on guest directors that are You know, different so that you can have so you keep the show fresh, right? And if the show is going for seven or six seasons, sometimes it can feel not so fresh and feel maybe sometimes stagnant. I think the guest director's job is to come on and freshen it up a little bit.

And I think for me, when I sit down with a showrunner, I'm like, I want to, I know we have budget constraints. I know we have the lines that have to color inside of, but how can we elevate it? And my way of elevating it is really like Getting the actors excited. And I learned that from a director named Jon Chorleski, who was on cast, who directed a lot on Castle, but he would come in with, and he was an actor before too, and he would come in with incredible ideas that I would never have thought of.

He, from stuff from his past or in his head, like I think he was a big fan of happy days. And so there was one scene where he was like, I want, we're going to set this in the break room and I want you to come in and You know, you walk over to the soda machine and you hit it twice in the front and once on the side and the soda falls out and you pick it up and you're just in the middle of your dialogue and you walk across the thing

Lorien: and you're like, I'll be the Fonz. Yes, please. Oh my God, I love this. Exactly. Yeah. Here we go.

Jon: Yeah. And it made, and it was the same old thing where we're discussing a case where there's no clues and all this stuff, but then what we got to play was that I get, I do that every time I come in there and get a soda. And then my partner sees, and we're in the middle of still talking about the crime, but he sees what's happening. And he goes, what the fuck? And he walks over there and he's like banging on what we're really talking about a body we're talking about Jonand then just in the window prints, the fucking, it's the fumes didn't produce any, whatever.

The whole thing is just about the crime, but the action is. He's like, how the fuck did you do that? And how come it's not working for me? And that's not fucking fair. And then at the end, we're likeJon let's just go canvas the neighborhood again, Jonand now we're driving away. But to me, Jon Trulaski coming in with that, it was the best lesson I could have had as a director.

Cause now he freshened all of that.

Lorien: Yeah.

Jon: Up for me as an actor.

Lorien: It's so great too, I'm just thinking as a writer, As a showrunner too, like, when you're trying to make something fresh and interesting, it's the character relationship, right? That's what's really happening. And how to, you're talking about how to keep like a procedural, like it's a crime and we're going to, instead of just having two characters sitting in the break room talking, which can happen with those of us who love dialogue, remembering that there is always tension and something going on with those characters and something like that.

Like, how are you the Fonz at this moment? Like, why are you cooler than I am? And then it creates a sort of competition and mystery. And there's this sort of something else for us to be watching as an audience while we're connecting to the facts. I just, I think that's such a lovely reminder as creators and all as showrunners and writers and actors and directors, that it's the tension in that relationship, which is why we're watching these shows, right?

That's why we watch procedurals too, right? How are these two, the wacky characters going to do this thing, right? 

Meg: So I guess I have a question. When your question as a director goes deeper, like beyond The maybe how to do it. It's the why to do it or the story point doesn't feel authentic to you Like what the actual scene is doesn't feel authentic to you Do you go that far as a director?

If for our writers who someday want to be showrunners, do they need to be ready? To be challenged at that level by their director. I would assume so but I would love to hear it

Jon: I think so. And I definitely should be ready and should be open to that kind of collaboration because I mean, sometimes I think as a showrunner and as a writer, like you have so much to do.

You're not just a writer, you're a manager. You're managing the whole show as a showrunner, right? So all of the things that you're dealing with. That is not the script and not the story. So to have a director coming in is I think a good thing is like help is and I also always tell whoever I'm going to be directing for, I go I'm hopefully gonna, I'm gonna have a great time collaborating and hopefully elevating this off the page, but also I'm the logic police.

Come from, like I say, like I come from a place of reason and logic. And there's been, the bar has been set so high by so many shows, so many films, where the audience smells bullshit now. And if you, if they smell too much bullshit, you lose them. And they aren't gonna come back. Don't, don't In one episode make it so real and grounded or so interesting and have so much character development and in this episode lose any of that because in the, the audience is going to see that smell that tastes that like they, they will when relationships between actors change.

Audiences feel that I feel like, the audience feels the energy from what the actors are doing, what the writers are doing, what the directors are doing, what the crew is doing. Like they feel the good energy and they feel the bad energy. And so what are we doing to increase the good energy, the great energy.

So the audience keeps coming back. And I was interested in really investing in this. Particular part of the story, which is part of an overall story, right? So I always feel like, hey, this is what I want to do. I want to be, I want to make sure that we are hitting the bar that you've already set or that other shows have set or other films have set.

Let's always think about elevating it and let's do it together. And I always feel like the best way to do it is to yes, and I learned that in the groundlings years ago when I went through as that's how you move the scene forward. You slow a scene down when you deny, right? You slow a scene down when you ask questions.

Which is kind of a form of denial. So how do you move a story forward? So how do you move a moment forward? So if you start coming up with ideas don't shut someone down. Or if a director's coming up with ideas, if an actor's coming up with ideas, don't shut them down by saying no, that's not the way it goes.

You say yes, and Meaning, or Yes but, or yes and, so that you explain, this is why, but let me hear what you have to say. And then you are a little more open to something. As soon as you say, no, you're closed you're shut. You're closing them off. You've closed yourself off. So it's yes.

Even if you're, even if it's not gonna change, you've still said yes. And I think that's the best way to move. The moment forward is a creative moment forward, but it's also in storytelling. It's a great way to, I did an episode last year of a show and in this scene, the and the lead actress in the show or that, that, and that scene in particular.

Had some problems with the scene and was trying to articulate it to the writers in the show and Jordan. And I saidJon one thing I know, and this is me as a director is kind of off to the side saying, one thing I noticed is that every single one of her lines. is a question. So what is she actually contributing to the scene?

Nothing. She, everyone else is contributing and she's just asking questions so that they can contribute. So what, and as the lead actress she should be contributing something. So maybe instead of Questions. And look, the same information can be brought into the scene in the form of a statement, not a question.

So then it gives that actor and that, character a little more participation and power in the scene. And and they changed like almost every single one of our lines from a question to a statement. Because if you really look at a scene, you actually don't always need questions, In the groundlings, there were two, Jonit's four levels.

Two of the levels are right at are. writing levels, right? When I first learned about improv and really being an improvisational actor, it's all about you not having a lot of time. You have to get it, you have to tell a story in a short amount of time and you have to tell it from nothing or you have as a suggestion of something.

So if you ask a bunch of questions, if you deny a bunch of people, you don't move the story forward, you just get bogged down. So I think that. That's an important lesson for writers to think about. Is my story moving forward? And if it's not moving forward in the way that I want it to, are some of the characters asking too many questions?

Are our characters denying other characters something? And, sometimes of course you have to ask questions. Sometimes you have to say no, but it's gotta be the right time. I think

Meg: That's so amazing.

Jon: And I think you need to teach writers. From the actor and director point of view, because of that thing, she's only asking questions. I'm literally like running through my scripts and wait a minute. The lead actress, then like it's her job to meet everybody else's needs to participate. Instead of her, having a character. In that scene She had seven lines. It's funny. I remember it very vividly. She had seven lines. Every single one of her lines was a question.

Lorien: I it's, yeah, okay, so to that end exactly, when you are looking at a script to either act in or direct or produce or reading for something that you have come up with and are reviewing a script with a writer, what are you looking for that makes it a script that you're like, yes, I want to be a part of this?

Jon: Anything that, and where I get to take my shirt off. I'm kidding. I'd rather not, actually.

Lorien: We know the writer for Outlander, so I mean, maybe.

Jon: Man, that show. Yeah, so what, but what, other than taking your shirt off, which is, I mean, you gotta be real, right? Yeah, that's true. What are you looking for? What makes have to be in this.

Lorien: I have to direct this. I have to be a part of this show. What is it?

Jon: I like something that is the perfect blend. I'll tell you my favorite kind of things is drama with levity and comedy with sentiment. That's like those, that's my kryptonite. I love to be laughing one moment and crying the next. Because it reminds me of life. A little bit more. It's, it seems, I like something that is real grounded fun. 'cause life is fun and emotional. 'cause every day I think all of us go through I, most of us do. There are sociopaths out there that don't, but most of us go through so many different levels of emotion throughout the day.

And so if a story kind of mirrors that, I love it. And I love for me as, say, an actor, right now what I like, what I look for are for me as a Afro Latino as a person of color, I want to see people like me in roles that aren't that I haven't seen traditionally.

I think one of the last romantic leads that was Latino was like, when a man loves a woman with Andy Garcia, which is an amazing movie, right? Haven't seen a romantic lead like that. Someone who supports his wife unconditionally, no matter what she's going through and who, and there's romance and there's just this kind of sacrifice for love.

I haven't seen a lot of roles like that offered to me, first of all, but also written at all for people like me or, or offered to other people like me. So stuff like that I look for obviously. And I look for stuff where I love anti hero stuff, like where people start out and you, they do something unexpected and out of character that then You know saves a day or I like that kind of stuff as a director.

I love the same kind of stuff. And I just love to be challenged to direct problem solving. I think most of the time, especially on television. And I like that. I like to be, I like to solve problems. I like to be challenged. Jon if they're like, Jonwhen I directed an episode of Tracker last year and it was, I was very lucky where I think it was CBS's favorite episode.

But at the beginning I didn't want to say yelled at, but in the concept meeting, I'm not going to say it was the best, my favorite concept meeting I've ever been in. There was a warning thrown out there with an elevated tone. I don't want this to look like a book in Hollywood or a horror show this is not with that.

And I had to be like, look, man, that's not what I read on the page. But you know, there was this, there were, there could have been traps where it could have seemed very silly. So the challenge was, I'm going to make it the opposite of what he just said complete opposite. I'm going to make this look like fucking, even.

And that's the challenge. Like, how do I make a CBS procedural look like

Lorien: seven? I mean, that's a take on getting notes, which is, I hear what you're saying, and I'm going to do the opposite of that. And you're going to love it because the reason you're saying you don't want that is because you're afraid of it and it's going to hit your sort of your emotional juice.

So here, I'm going to give it to you and you're going to love it.

Jon: First thing I said, yes. And it

Lorien: has to be excellent. That is a big swing, right? I'm not saying everyone should do this, but that is a big swing, right? That is. Yeah. And it worked out for you. I love it. I

Jon: have. And they're working out.

Lorien: What are things that you see in scripts that you're like, fuck no.

There's no way I'd be attached to that.

Jon: I mean, unrealistic dialogue for one if it doesn't if it doesn't flow, it doesn't feel like a real conversation I'm automatically out. One of the things that I don't like in a script either means exactly?

Lorien: The clunky exposition, or when all the characters that's what I was getting ready to get into.

Yeah. So that was next. So first as actual dialogue, like how my, my, one of my pet peeves in, especially when I write, but also when I'm reading something even on the page, everyone's voice should sound different. And I'll get a script where. It's the same voice, even though there are different character names, it's the same voice.

And so then that doesn't allow for interesting dialogue because if this character has a different voice, they're going to say something completely different than what's on the page. If they were, if they had their own voice, but right now they're saying the exact same thing that there's other characters do.

They sound exactly like it's another character. And then the other thing on top of that is when. Exposition is clunky when it's I don't need to know as much detail when it interrupts the flow of a scene. Just to say, he gets outta the chair and walks to the counter.

Why? Is that necessary? Is that a huge thing in the street scene where he has to get up and walk to, or if it's, or is it just the writer saying, I need to put some movement in here? I got it, cause they're human so they move around. It's like the director's gonna come in and block the scene anyway with the actors.

And that, him getting up out of the chair and walking across might not even happen because maybe the character never sat in a chair. So keep the dialogue flowing so I can see the rhythm of the scene and see how the characters are interacting with each other. So when there's too much of that, too much exposition, too much interruption in the flow, it makes me, Jonjust a little crazy.

And I don't, and then I don't get the story as effectively. I think because I'm having to jump out of the scene to read what the character does or where they are, what flies overhead or whatever it is instead of staying with the characters and seeing how one character's reaction to the other character and, and imagining it in my own brain, like when we read a book, you have to imagine everything, it should be the same when the script I don't need to see all the detail of stage direction, especially, or, parentheticals.

Don't need to see all that stuff. I just want actors to make their own choices. As a director and an actor, how do you feel about parentheticals? I don't write them, right? I don't write parentheticals, like, when it's exasperated, or, Unless I really need to be clear that they are talking to someone else, right?

Jon: I think a parenthetical word, yeah, exactly. Or it's, What the fuck is that? And they're saying that, what we told you about earlier, the spilled milk on the floor. In the beginning of the scene in the exposition, there's still milk on the floor later on when a character says, what the fuck is that?

Instead of saying walks into the room, looks down and sees spilled milk on the floor. And then, Jonjust put in the parenthetical are either milk on the floor or the or if you need to say like there's a moment, a beat before the character says something to the, back to the other character, instead of seeing it in the, Jonin the, where the action would be like, the general or the action or the the exposition, just put it in the parenthetical that Mark takes a beat, then says his thing.

So that's a cool parenthetical ref for me, I think. But yeah, you're like, you're right. If it says, tearing up. Oh man. The actor might not wanna tear up. Like it might be better to, I think most people don't like to watch people cry. We like to watch people trying not to cry, right? Yeah.

So long as we always remember that, but I think, people coming up don't always know that piece of advice. That, when you're younger as an actor too, you think, let me show him how I can cry.

Lorien: I mean, it is when you're a stage act when you're, I don't know if you ever did stage work, but that was always the moment in any play where you could pull off real tears and you'd hear them whispering, you need to be, I did it,

Meg: our Co-Producer Padi had a question for you. So before I know we have to go soon, so I want to make sure to get it in Padi.

Padi: Hi, Jon. You were talking a little bit about representation and I had a question about, in my case, Latinos who speak English as a second language. My first language, of course, is Spanish. And, growing up, I noticed that people with accents are always typecasted and it's a little intimidating sometimes when going into an industry and it feels you're not going to be taken seriously because of how you sound. So I wanted to know from your perspective both as a director, as an actor, if you have any sort of recommendation for people who may sound like me and want to come in, but sometimes may feel a little scared.

Jon: I think. You have to own who you are, right? So if you're, if you have an accent don't try to cover it. You know what I mean? If you speak as you speak. And because of that, I feel like sometimes when people do judge someone who might have an accent they're almost like judging their ability or their intelligence. If you like, just speak as you speak and make sure you're being the intelligent version of you when you speak so that what you are saying is more important than how it sounds coming out of your mouth, right? What you're saying can't be denied. As long as so it lets them catch up to the accent and understand.

And then for me, it's like about them understanding that's the world we live in. There are so many people with different accents. Jon I think I find it hard to understand some people from deep Louisiana. And they're American, right? But they sound, Jonthey may be Cajun or something, come from the Bayou, and can barely understand what they say.

I said, I think I'd probably understand you more than I would understand something like that. But so there are accents from all over the place. And I think as long as you can, you speak intelligently to who you are and your sensibility and you get that across that it's almost undeniable.

And it's about, so it's about having that confidence in your own intelligence and in your own abilities, let them hear that instead of your accent. Cause I, cause if you do speak to your heart and speak to your truth in that way, then your accent won't get in the way.

Meg: He does. He does. Padi does that. And I think that applies to so many things. It can apply to being a woman, it could apply to being a person of color, it could apply to, I'm a beginner, I'm an emerging writer, and you're a big fancy writer. There's so many ways we can Not be 27, for example. Yes. We can undervalue ourselves. And I also love that what you're talking about is your passion for the project itself, that your confidence is coming when you talk about yourself as a director and what you see, you're so passionate about the story and the characters, right? And I just think that's so instructive and a great example for our writers to hear how valuable that is.

Now. I would love to, we could talk to you all day, but we know we only have you for a short time. So we end every episode with the same three questions. What brings you the most joy when it comes to acting or directing? What brings me the most joy to acting is just being able to sometimes give voice to a character that may not have had a voice otherwise.

Jon: So because of being a person of color and I get to embody characters that like for This Is Us I was hired as Mike. And he was just a guy. And me being that character, I was able to give a voice to Miguel, who Miguel ended up being. Which may not have, he may not have gotten a voice before.

And for me as a director, I think I, I just, I think as a director, what it's just, I don't know what it is. I just feel, I get a high from being responsible for, from word one on page one, to the last word on the last page. There's something about getting all of that right. And someone telling me you got it right. That's it. Is what it's all about. Because as a director, especially in television, my job is to make the show runner happy. And if I made them happy, then I did my job. And I can, that means we'll probably be able to do it again, hopefully.

There's a joy in, in, Painting pictures with nothing, you had nothing before. Now you can, you're using your production designer, your DP, your actors, the words of the page and you're painting this incredible picture. There's nothing more gratifying for me right now.

Lorien: All right. So here's the second question. What pisses you off when it comes to acting and directing?

Jon: Everything. No, I'm just kidding. You know what pisses me off is the fact that I learned my job as an actor is to get people to like me. Had to get a casting director to like me, then I had to get a director to like me, then I had to get producers to like me, then I had to get a studio to like me, then I had to get a network to like me, and then I got to get the audience to like me.

And if the audience doesn't like me, I'm done. I'm gone. If a network doesn't like me, studio, I can be gone. And that's what my job hinges on is people liking me as an actor. And that was, that I, it pisses me off that I, that's what I have to do is give people like me. As a director, what pisses me off is when, I guess when someone has no confidence in you before they've worked with you.

Meaning that, based on whatever your body of work is before if I'm up for say, to direct a comedy and they're like, I look at my real and they see this is us and they see procedurals and they go, Oh yeah, he's not. Jon's not, he's, he can't do our show. He doesn't do comedy. How do you know I don't do comedy?

First of all, I was a standup comedian. I went through the groundlings. I was on Joe Schmo. I was on Moesha and Sabrina Tate, which I think I can do comedy.

Lorien: Stop it. I'm fangirling. Okay. Keep going.

Jon: And so that kind of pisses me off. Before someone's worked with you, they've already decided what you can do. Jon, let's get to work first and you tell me if I can do comedy, Jonyou tell me if I can do drama or action or whatever it is. I think that I, it pisses me off when you are judged based on one sliver of your work experience.

Lorien: Yeah, I think as writers, we can spec our way out of it, right? I can say, oh, you don't have a comedy for me? Here, I wrote you a comedy. Oh, you don't think I can do a thriller? Here, I wrote a thriller, right? We're auditioning, but we have the power to generate that sort of into a script in our living room, right? We type it up. As an actor and a director, you're limited by, somebody has to give you that chance. Yeah. You can create your own stuff. Of course. 

Jon: But it's expensive, right?

Lorien: Yes.

Jon: It's not cheap to shoot. So because here's an actor, at least I can go out and do stand up comedy. I can say, you know what?

Lorien: Yeah.

Jon: Come see me at the Improv Friday or Saturday. That's if I can get a slot. But as a director, the hardest is as a director, I can't just go out and direct some comedy. Like I can't just cause. I gotta get hired for it, first of all, or, if I'm not gonna shoot it on my iPhone, maybe that'll work, maybe not, but, it's a little tougher as a driver.

Jeff: Very reliable answer, Jon. The last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self kind of just on the precipice of his career, what advice would you give to that, Jon? Jon.

Jon: Get out of your own way, buddy. That's, I think that that's probably the same answer everyone's gives, but I think I would tell myself you know what? I think I would say, learn more. I mean I always studied and still do. I think I'm always going to study. I like to study filmmaking. I love to study acting. I love to study writing. I love saying I'm always just going to be a student, but. There are times when I was, hanging out, with the friends, partying, or doing whatever, and I wish I would have just Learned more so that I could have become a hyphenate a lot sooner and not just singing, acting, dancing more as a writer as a director, just started doing, I wish I would have started earlier, started learning how to do all this stuff much sooner in my career.

Lorien: But then how would you've gotten all those terrible experiences that you get to write about and direct about and act through, right? Like I have that a lot too, right? If I stopped partying so much in college or if I'd made this different choice in my twenties, but then I think that terrible choice I made in my twenties led to this really cool opportunity where I met that weird person who I write about.

So I'm not trying to give you advice to yourself because yes, I 100 percent am every day, right? Every day. I wish I had more time to do but just as a The other side of that so that we don't all beat ourselves up about Fun. We had the terrible choices we made in pursuit of whatever it was we were doing.

We have time. I have one more question that I'd like to pair with. Do you have time? Do you have a few minutes? Jon? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I asked you earlier about what you look for in a script? Thank you so much for answering the questions that we lobbied at you and

Jon: No problem.

Lorien: Thank you for being on the show.

Jon: I loved it.

Lorien: It was really lovely to talk to you. Like I said, I have so many more questions, right? I'm so interested in the episodic TV director sort of journey, but thank you so much.

Jeff: Thank you so much. Congratulations. It's you know, it's a small feat as a long time working actor to have a directing career So it's a really cool achievement and we're excited to see where you go.

Jon: Oh, thanks. Yeah, I love It's hopefully it goes hopefully continues to go.

Lorien: Thank you so much for tuning in to the screenwriting life for more support You can always check out our Facebook group the screenwriting life Or, and plus you can go to ts l workshops, which is Jeff, what's the website for TSL workshops?

Jeff: The easiest way to get there is to go to our website, which is the screenwriting life.co. And there's a tab that says TSL workshops, or you can go to TSL workshops, do circle, so it really rolls off the tongue. But I will include it in the description below. So just go ahead and click the link right there if you're interested.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.