217 | How To Get A Manager (ft. Roadmap Writers' Joey Tuccio)

Joey Tuccio may know more writers in Hollywood than just about anyone. In fact, he loves writers so much, that he created an entire program to nature, incubate, and propel writers to representation through his brainchild ROADMAP WRITERS. Today, in a re-broadcast of a hugely attended Facebook live from 2023, we ask the hard questions about what it really takes to get a manager.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey TSLers, producer Jeff here, and we have a very special episode for you today. It's actually a rebroadcast of a Facebook Live we did last year, all about how to get a manager. We feature Roadmap Roadmap founder and genius Joey Tuccio, and we really get into a lot of nitty gritty questions here, so I think any question you might have about representation, we cover here.

I want to quickly thank our old co-producer Savana who oversaw this event. You'll hear her asking questions at the end, so thanks Savana for your hard work. Thanks of course to Joey and Meg, who moderated the conversation, and to all of you who asked questions. Even if you did check out this Facebook Live last year, it's been 10 months, so it's a great time to tune in. We feel like it's perfect timing because Meg and Joey are just coming off of their Safari in Africa, which they also talk about, so buckle up, dig in. This is an amazing TSL episode, and we know you'll enjoy it. 

Meg: So let's just start with kind of the most basic question. 'cause I'm sure we have people from all over, all different levels. So let's just start. What is a manager? Yeah, let's just lay it out. What is a manager? 

Joey: Yeah, a little bit about me. Like I started Roadmap about seven years ago and. My job at Roadmap is connecting Roadmap with execs and reps, whether it's managers or agents. And we just had literally five minutes ago, our 370th writer signed through introductions.

I'm going to talk about that script a little later. But I am a firm believer that one should try to get a manager. First before getting an agent, having a few scripts, maybe a couple of things going on, a couple of contest placements, but a manager really is your cheerleader. A manager is somebody where an agent is more transactional, they might not give like heavy duty notes. They might help close the deal. A manager is somebody that will be reading your scripts and giving you notes. Hopefully a manager is somebody that will be setting up general meetings. A manager is somebody that is also maybe part therapist for you.

Meg: So true. Oh my God. That's so true. 

Joey: Yeah. I feel like my job too. I get calls of all types, but I feel like I am part therapist sometimes because it's so hard. And the other thing too, I want to say about getting a manager is a great piece of the puzzle. But there's still the other pieces of the puzzle. So even though it's great to get a manager, there's so much more to actually start getting traction. Sometimes I hear from a writer I just want to write. So that's why I want to get a manager. And I'm like, okay even if you do get a manager, you're not just going to be writing, you're going to be networking, you're going to be going on general meetings, you're going to be pitching. But a really good manager is somebody that will make that. A lot more seamless.

Meg: That's great. Yeah. And there is a big difference between an agent and a manager. One, the manager is not legally allowed to do your deal. So you do still have to have an agent or at least a lawyer to do the deal. And you're right. They're such therapists, but my poor manager, sometimes I'm like, why would she say that? What do I do about this or whatever? There's like too many pot cooks in the kitchen. So he often helps me with the strategy too, of, How do you negotiate this? And where's my rank in this? I also think he also gives great notes and I think that's important for a manager that you click, right? Don't you think that you guys click, they get you, they get your voice. So let's also ask about that. A lot of times when I've heard you speak and When we go on safari together, each person takes a day and gives a seminar and I loved Joey's seminar.

So you talked in that seminar about voice and that a lot of what a lot of managers are looking for obviously is voice. Obviously, you have to have the craft down. There's just a basic craft level. You're going to have doubts, but what is voice to you when you're out working with your Roadmap?What is voice? Why is it important for representation? How can a writer develop it? 

Joey: Yeah. Great questions for me. I am to me, it's voice first and foremost, when it comes to reading somebody's script. I could go through a list of our success stories and be like, these are their. Most of these Roadmaps have a really clear, fun voice.

I also want to preface by saying that especially now the industry is constricted. So it is harder to get out there. It is harder to get somebody's attention. So that's why the voice is so instrumental. Some things that I look for in voice are the minutiae of character introductions.

Instead of just like describing what they look like, what's the feeling I'm supposed to get from that character? They're not just tall and muscular, but what's the feeling I'm supposed to get? If we're at a party and I'm next to this person, what's the vibe that person is giving me? Same thing with a scene setting. It's not just there's a desk over there, there's chairs over there, there's diplomas on the wall, but what's the feeling I'm supposed to get from it? To me, when I'm reading a script, Maybe I have a short attention span, but I forget quite quickly what somebody looks like or what a scene looks like, but I will not forget how I'm supposed to get from it. So if it's a college, if it isn't. A rundown college. Is it an Ivy League college? Does it seem haunted? I love just making it feel atmospheric. 

Meg: Atmospheric Is a great word. What atmosphere are you building immediately? 

Joey: What's your point of view? Like it's not just a college, like what are you trying to say with it?

And. I, there was one script I read a while ago, and I read three pages of her script, and I was like, done, I'm obsessed. And it was just so atmospheric, and we hope to get signed to Anonymous Content, she's at Verve right now. So to me that's what it is. Especially now with fewer opportunities, and It's what, how can you be bold?

So I always tell Roadmap crank up the volume of what you're trying to say, crank up the volume of your character introductions or your description, or even just your brand as well. What, I'm a big, I love Roadmap who have a brand, whether it's you write genre, or you write dramas, or you write comedies, but how do you fit into the system of writing?

Called the industry. But be really specific about that. One thing I always, I teach Roadmap too, is the writer's a writer's bio. So a couple of lines in the bio is, okay, you write comedy, but why? What inspires you to write comedy? It's not just that you saw Jurassic Park many years ago and you were obsessed with cinema and that's why you wanna do it. But is there a deeper rooted reason why you're writing in the first place? And why did you choose comedy as an outlet? For your creativity. That's something that I'm a big advocate for, especially when you're going into general meetings and being able to talk a little bit about yourself. There was, speaking of voice, there was the writer who just got signed.

Joe Swofford, who he's gonna find out any minute now from the manager he met with, Chris Deckard from Fictional Entity. I read his script... by the way, Meg, I'm so caffeinated right now, so if I start going on tangents, but I read his script in New York, I was doing these consults, and I remember it was like a Saturday night, and I was just about to do something, and I was like, oh shoot, I forgot I have to do this consult, like maybe I should cancel, I want to go out and do something fun. So I was reading, I went into it begrudgingly but then I read his script, and I actually called him 30 minutes earlier, and he said, okay. I'm obsessed with this script and I will do anything it takes to at least get you signed. Which just happened a few minutes ago, but it's without giving away what it's really about. It's just two people. On a plane and that's, there's more to it but. It's just contained to two people on a plane and it made me and the manager cry, made us

That's all the feels in the world. So one thing I do, I see Roadmap do, especially with their opening pages, is trying to put too much into it. Okay, I want to keep the exec excited. So I'm gonna do a cart chase here, and introduce 10 characters here. And so I want to keep them excited. I'm going to trick them and keep them excited when it really is, if you could just capture them with your voice, that will do the trick more than all the stimulus coming out the executive. 

Meg: That's such great advice. And I love that you heard voice with two people on a plane. What a great example. Now voice, it's atmosphere, it's character description, it's in your description, but it's also got to be in the characters, don't you think?

And in the dialogue, which I know sounds a bit confusing because it's your voice, but it's coming through how you create character, what character you're interested in. Maybe as a way to think of it and the specificity of that character that you're interested in that you love because you must love your characters, even if they're bad guys, you love them, right?

So why do you love these characters? And what do you love about them interacting with people? That all is voice. Now, if you're an action writer, your voice is going to come out in how you describe that car chase and that you're going to describe some sort of chase we've never seen before, right? So it doesn't just have to come out with the characters, but I don't you think it's got to be in... it also is in the storytelling, like to me, it's if we're around a campfire and Joey tells it, which we have them in Africa with animals around us, by the way, there was a guy walking around with a gun to make sure we didn't get eaten in the middle of this campfire, but whatever. So if we're around a campfire and Joey's telling a story, now you all can hear Joey's voice, I think, as a storyteller, today, right now, right? Joey's storytelling voice is coming out. I'm very caffeinated, right? That, all of that is starting, can you hear, as Roadmap, the voice of Joey coming through, if he told a story, in Africa, around a campfire, whereas if I told the story? Right? It would be very different. It can be as simple as that to start listening to your friends talk and how they tell stories and the different voices, literally the personalities. Maybe that's another way to think of voice. Personality of the writer is coming through. What do you think?

Joey: Yeah, to me, it's like going back to the character intros, like there was a writer who I still work with and she described one of her characters as a raw vegan goddess. And every time that character spoke, I really got a sense of the feeling I was supposed to get from that character.

So when she spoke, the character spoke, I really got what the perspective is a little bit. The other thing too that I love about personality is a private moment with your protagonist at the beginning. I think that's in my opinion, really crucial to set up, okay, who are we following, what's their point of view and when nobody else is around what is this person like? So it's not like they're just out in a therapist's office. Maybe we start them in an elevator by themselves, and they're going to the therapist's office. And what are they doing? Are they doing drugs? Are they juggling three phones? Are they falling asleep? Are they whatever it is?

To me, it's such a great way to capture the personality. Of that human and it just, to me, that's like such a great way to anchor in okay, this is the heartbeat, this is the anchor and everything orbits around that. 

Meg: I love that and do that as a writing exercise, you guys, you don't have to put in your script, put each of your main characters, even your supporting characters alone in a room and how would you describe them? For me, personally, as a writer, I find my voice in what characters do, and that defines the character, right? Because if she walks in and throws a liter bottle of Pepsi at his head It just tells me a lot about her and me, right? Like that. I think that's funny, right? Okay, let's go on to other questions.

We have so many things. Okay. What do I need as a writer in order to approach a manager? And how do you approach a manager? Because I bet a lot of people listening in right now are from all over the world, right? They're not all necessarily in LA here either. And I would of course recommend Roadmap Roadmap.

And we're going to get into that in a minute, but Talk about approaching a manager. What does a manager expect? Because I find Joey, sometimes when I'm talking to people, they've written one script they love. And I'm like, okay, that's great. Now write another one. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Joey: Yeah, sure. So a couple things is, consistency with the writing. So I have three scripts, a couple of features, maybe a pilot. One thing I am hearing from the industry now is how the TV space has gotten harder. So I am getting more emails from reps or execs looking for more features than pilots. Of course, obviously don't chase trends because that'll change probably in a few months.

Meg: It'll change in two seconds, but it's good to have to try. You don't have to write a pilot, but try one. 

Joey: Try one. Yeah, exactly. You never know. Maybe actually, I like pilots better. It's shorter. So maybe I'll do that. Shorter pages. Awesome. But have a few things like a couple of things in your arsenal for me and everybody has different opinions.

I like Roadmap have a few things in the same space. So for me, when I'm marketing a writer to a rep to a manager or an agent, And I send them let's say, a sci fi, and they're like, great, what else do they have? And then I send them a G rated animation, and they might be like, oh, okay, that's not exactly what I was looking for.I am looking for a sci fi writer that maybe fills a void that I have. So I think a little bit of consistency with the genres you write in doesn't mean you just have to write sci fi. But like maybe like in the same kind of genre space more 

Meg: That's such great advice and I don't think people understand it because they're told don't get pigeonholed and I'm like no, get pigeonholed. You can break out later. That's what your managers are there to help you do. You've got to get pigeonholed, right? Okay, you don't have to write the exact same tiny sliver genre. But if you're writing action, you can write action in different ways and you become a good action writer. So I think that's so important. So important. Just as an example, when I was a young writer, I went up for a job and it was a family movie about a dog. And the sample they sent in was a sample about a guy who keeps a girl in a box under his bed. And I was like I didn't get that job. And I didn't. I was like, that's not the sample to send in.Yeah, it's, but just use an example. They want to see that you can write, they want to see that you can write what it is. Sorry, go ahead. 

Joey: I love the darker side of Meg. I would, that's, that, I do agree with that. 

Meg: It's so dark, you guys. But you know what? It's a very dark pilot and it got me the Captain Marvel job. Right? It's got to have a voice. Whatever the tone is, let's just quickly go back to brand because I also think what you're talking about is brand when we talk pigeonhole when we talk have a voice. Can you describe for the people watching what brand means? Really, what does that mean? How would you find their own brand if you're at home? How do they go about that? What do they think about it? 

Joey: Yeah, I think a lot of it really comes to playing the game at the beginning. Yes, you want to like maybe write a few different genres, but at the beginning, Stay in your lane, play the game. And Meg said, once you get a little more established, then you can start branching off and doing other things. It doesn't mean you have to write this forever, but like a brand is a comedy writer. They will first think of are the people to comedy because I know they’ll be able to deliver in have a few comedies under a perspective. They're obviously been training. Under the comedy world, whether it's like improv or stand up or just honing their craft. So those are people I think of first, the people who like have consistency in that space. Like another level of branding is themes you like to explore. There was a writer I was working with a while ago named Ozzy Esquire.

And when I was talking to the Roadmap in the program, like, why do you write in the first place? When she told me her reason, I said to myself, and probably her, because I have no filter. I said, you're a star. And you're going to be, there was something about the confidence in which she talked about why she writes as she is, she is a queer POC writer, a human, and she injects that into their story.

And that doesn't mean she writes memoir-esque, very small stories. She actually just wrote something huge for Universal. She's right for Shonda Rhimes. She wrote for Bridgerton. But it all comes down to what an exec looks for. They're going to be like, okay, who lives and breathes in this space?

No, it doesn't mean you're going to be right for everybody. And you shouldn't be right for everybody because then you're going to start diluting your brand. But once that hits, it's going to be undeniable. But this is who I'm looking for. I'm looking for a person who writes these kinds of characters. And I'm definitely going to go to the Ozzie Esquires of the world. 

Meg: I love that. But I also want to say, because often people say it's like a drama, and I'm like, that's not a brand. That's not a brand. It's not a genre. I know that people say it's a genre, but it's not because the drama is so big and wide. It's like telling a coming of age story. And I'm like, and comedy to me, it's just so big and wide. What kind of comedy do you do? Right. So it is good to start getting granular and really think about what you love to do. What people you get responses from like the scripts or the scenes that people are loving.You're probably, what are you watching all the time now? It doesn't always work that way. There's tons of stuff I love to watch that I can't write. And you might find that out in your first couple of scripts. Oh my God. I love to write, to watch these movies, but I don't know how to write them, but I really know how to write this, which is odd. And yet I do because it starts to pop and go okay. 

Joey: In terms of that too, it's like the boldness, like what, how can you even take, you could take a genre and flip it on its head and show us something we haven't seen before. The other thing too about brand is for somebody who like works with so many Roadmap and deals with so many bios, it's you also have to be, like, you were saying, very granular with who you are, because back in the day saying you're, like, maybe a queer writer or a gay writer or whatever that was more that kind of stood out a little bit. Now, because the world has changed, there's so many people, which is great, I'm gay, so I love it in the queer community, so saying that doesn't necessarily mean okay, I'm gonna stand out because I'm queer, or I'm neurodivergent. It's what is that, how does that influence your writing? It's not just saying, I am this, but like, how does that, like, how does that, show your lens into your stories. 

Meg: Yeah, that's a category. That's a category. It's not a personality. It's not a person, right? Yeah, same for your characters, by the way, same for your characters. So Roadmap Roadmap, when are people ready for Roadmap Roadmap? Because you're I guess I have a twofold question. You're I love Roadmap because it's been decades of people asking me how to get a manager and I'm like, right, really good. And people will find it, which is such a lame answer. And now I can be like, Oh my God, go to Roadmap.

I want to know, first of all, when are people ready to come in? Because I don't think you're necessarily ready right away. You've got to, I think, have those scripts and be ready. And then how do you work with people? Because I'm especially interested in when we go to Africa. I want to eavesdrop on what you're doing there.

Because I have to work at the same time. And then we all get together at lunch and talk. But when are people ready for Roadmap Roadmap? And how do you work with Roadmap? 

Joey: Yeah for me, there's 11 of us here. And we don't have the infrastructure to work with every writer. And to be honest, we don't necessarily want to.

We want to work with the career Roadmap. The people who really want this and understand that it's a journey. The people that I feel like, not only that they're good Roadmap, But they're good people. Like I would trust putting them in a room with somebody. 'cause you will be in many rooms with people.

So to me it's like you need to first off understand that. Also have a couple of scripts under your belt. We're not screenwriting 1 0 1, so if you've never written a script before, we're not really the right place for you. Where for people who like to have a couple of scripts. I want to finesse it, I want to keep learning the craft, but I'm also ready to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

So that's, to me, it's like a combination. Actually, for me, mostly it's I connect with the human first, more than the writing, I don't know why if I connect with a person and they have something really interesting to say, I'm almost more excited about that than if they have an okay script, but as a person, they're not like delivering in the room.

So it is a combination of both. One thing that we are, we started doing recently as well, because after getting signed, obviously Getting signed is great, but this one piece of the puzzle is we do these free Zoom events where we have, we had Javi come in recently, we have showrunners, we have studio execs, staffing execs, producers and they get face time with the Roadmap who have gone signed through our programs.

They could request material, they can meet with people, and I've noticed that the people in those Zooms, Because they've been vetted because they've now signed and done some general meetings. They're so on, which is amazing. Not on and like performative, but when it's their turn, they're ready.

There's no Oh wait, can I have a few more minutes? Should I gather my pitch? They know who they are. They know what their brand is. They know how to say things concisely. And to me, I get so excited in those meetings. I'm like, yes, like maybe you didn't come into Roadmap knowing that, but going through the program, And now being able to go to a staffing exec at Amazon and be like, this is who I am as a human.

This is who I am as a writer and it blows the execs away a little bit because they're not used to people who really understand that side of things.  

Meg: So I really want the Roadmap out there to hear and whether you go to Roadmap or you do it yourself, that's what we're hoping for you that when you get in that room with that manager, you get in the room with that exec.

Or you have a chance to talk to us or whatever you can really articulate for yourself. This is who I am. This is what I'm passionate about. That branding a little bit and, it's, I understand it's very lucky for people who get to work with Joey. I'm assuming that's what you do in Africa. You're gonna take Roadmap like and walk them through that, right? Do their bio, help them do what you would do normally at Roadmap. Is that what you do in Africa? 

Joey: Yeah. So it's. for Africa, which is like, by the way, I never in a million years, because I'm terrified of flying, by the way would think I would ever go on a plane longer than four hours, let alone 20, let alone 

27.And then when I landed, I had to go back and do this again in terms of going back to LA. But for me, when I work with the Roadmap in Africa it's not, I don't like big story dives. It's not. I'm not really smart enough for that, to be honest. I don't really, can't really find okay, what's the character objective in this scene?

To me, I'm more about, okay, so how do we put the finishing touches on this? And then also, what's the next step? One of our, the Roadmap I had, Theolin, who's amazing I was working with her and she actually got signed before the end of the Safari for me meeting her day one to get signed a few days later.

And through an introduction that I gave her. She's still with the manager. It's going well. But that's something too, like doing this for so long. I know which managers for the most part are good for which Roadmap. And it's also just keeping in mind that the manager has signed a few developmental Roadmaps recently, knowing that they're probably not looking for another developmental writer for a while because they also have to make money.

So knowing which managers and doing this for so long and talking to so many managers. Do I feel like, okay, I know that you've had a few Roadmap signs that are staff Roadmap. Now let's give a developmental writer a chance.

Meg: And you have to know your Roadmap very well and have worked with them in order to make those introductions. I also just want to say to the Roadmap out there who are feeling slightly overwhelmed by this conversation, because not all Roadmap If not, the predominant amount of Roadmap are not necessarily good talkers. When I worked for Jodie Foster, she and I would say to me a lot of great Roadmaps are not good pitchers because their brain and storytelling goes from their head into their fingers or in, into writing.

So they don't necessarily have to have the ability to pitch, but so on one hand, don't worry if that's you don't have to be Jazz hands. Like you don't have to be a performer in order to be a writer. You don't, you can be shy. You can be quiet. You can let your writing speak for itself.

Absolutely. The bar will be very high on that, but you will be put in a room eventually. And any rep needs to know that you can be in a room. And what that means. And by the way, it's not like you're going to go and meet a monster. You're going to go meet a human being. It's super easy. People like your manager or Joey can coach you on that in terms of walking in.

I always look at something in the office. We'll, she'll tell you a lot about the person in terms of what they love or their photographs of Africa, or is there crazy, wonderful, beautiful art on the wall that you can always want to talk to them about, personally. So that kind of stuff you can learn to pitch, you can learn what your brand is.

It's okay. Whatever your personality is. If you're a little bit more of an introvert, that's fine too. I do think execs are used to introverted Roadmaps. Like it's a normal thing. So it's okay, but it is something for you to dig into. All right, let's go ahead. 

Joey: Like I can tell when a writer's not present because.

And they're really eager to pitch because I'll be like, how are you? And they'll be good. And they'll go right into the pitch versus like, how are you? Good. How are you? Good. Having that like back and forth that like little intro conversation before just to connect with humans first. 

Meg: And I think when that happens, Joey, when I often think oh this person is here and worried about performing and worried about being judged and worried about are you going to buy this versus I always try in those meetings to think about I'm going to meet a person and I'm going to tell you a story I fucking love if you don't like it's totally fine if it's not for you it's totally fine but I love this story and the more I love it and my passion for it I honestly believe half the time that's what convinces them because I love it so it is something that you can do Train yourself to do.

You just have to practice a little bit, telling your friends the story, not because you think your friends are not going to buy it or be mad at you, just because you know what, I'm writing the story and it's so crazy. I just love it because it's so weird. And let me tell you, okay, this is how I thought of it.

This is where the idea came from. The execs want to be drawn in. Right. So it is trying to fit what I, if you're an introvert, if you're feeling overwhelmed by this conversation, all you have to do in that room, in my opinion, Is be passionate and connect to your story. Yes. 

Meg: That is what they're here to hear.

If you love it, even if they don't want to buy it, they'll appreciate that you love it. They really will. They really will. Okay. 

Joey: You're closer. Yeah, no go. No, I was 

Meg: Just going to say we should go to questions, but tell us one more thing. 

Joey: Just wait. It's like when you're going into a meeting, take off the expectation that the person is going to buy your script because it's such that it probably will not happen.

Your job is to build relationships. So you want to go in and take off the expectation like, Oh, this is going to change my life. I could quit my day job because chances are that won't happen. Chances are it's okay, They like you, but they don't have room in the slate, but they have this other opportunity for you, or they want to introduce you to this person that knows this person.

So it is a long game. And the other thing too, is when you're pitching, but I tell Roadmap too, is that it will happen where you're talking and your soul just leaves your body halfway through. And you're like, I know my mouth is moving, but I don't know what I'm saying. And when I tell Roadmap, just check back in and remember the last time with the last sentence you remembered saying, and check back in with the emotionality the character, yes.

Joey: Check back in with what they're feeling at that time. That'll hopefully ground you back into this and that's just great pitching device at all.

Meg: Half the time I'm listening to people pitch who aren't pros. They're so busy telling me what I'm like. I'm actually lost because I can't hold in my head all of that would happen, but I can hold the emotion, right? I can hold that. She's so mad. She walks in and throws that leader bottle at his head and he's what? And then they jump in a car and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like you've got to stay down in the emotion. Yeah. Unless it's the high concept and then sell me on the concept. Okay let's take some questions and Savana is going to help us out cause I'm terrible at this. Savana what are some questions for Joey? 

Savana: Great. Amazing conversation, you guys. This has just been awesome. So we've actually gotten a few questions. Related questions about advice for writer duos.

This is a question from Jenny. I collaborate with another writer regularly. We are co Roadmap, but also want to have the freedom to do our own things. Should we have representation as a duo or individually? 

Meg: Oh, good question, Joey.

Joey: That’s a good question. My opinion is to get it individually. Get them, because a lot of times if a rep signs you as a duo, they might not want to read the stuff you wrote individually because that's not the deal.

They're like, no, I want you as a duo. And you never know. I'm sure Jenny, your co-writer, and you have a great relationship, but you never know. So I think it's more beneficial to get signed as an individual. And then you could bring in a script that you co-wrote with somebody. But it doesn't necessarily work the other way around.

So I would suggest individuals first. 

Meg: And the other side of that is sometimes if they're repping you, just be prepared. Let me put it this way. If they're repping you as an individual, they're going to be working to build your career. And if you bring in a script with someone else, They might go for it, but it'll also dilute a little bit what they're trying to build, right? So I would say as an early writer, it is a bit of a tricky thing. I personally think you got to pick a pony at the start and I think Joey's right. You can pick yourself and that might be the safest. But they're gonna, they're gonna want to know, again, brand what is this? Right? And that's what they're gonna work, and they know, like you said, the development, they know they have to work a long time, or a day, if it's, if you're lucky, to now build that person's career.

Joey: And if you do want to be wrapped individually, know that if you do have a script that you co wrote with somebody. That manager most likely will not consider that as a sample for consideration. They don't. Now did you write 10 percent of this? 90 percent of this. So if you are looking for representation individually, make sure it's just you.

Meg: And that you've got those three samples on your own. 

Joey: Exactly. Meg, I just love you so much. Oh my God. I just have a concession to you. Sorry. I had to say that. Okay. 

Savana: So we have it looks like we have a few folks tuning in from different parts of the world. Julie asked this question. And then there's another writer from Mexico as well. So as a Canadian. Julie asks, how would the process probability of signing with a U. S. Rep differs from someone who's not in the United States currently? 

Joey: Good question. I think if you want to be staffed on a TV show, you do have to live in L.A. More or less. And I would say more on the more. But if you don't want to be staffed or you focus on features, you could really live anywhere. I love Roadmap that live outside of L. A. I'm like Theolene, she's from South Africa. And I was like I know you're gonna come from a different perspective than nearly everybody else I work with does. It is exciting.

And as the raps and exacts start becoming more resourceful I guess stuff out there. I think there's, there is, and I am seeing more of a resurgence of okay, what's happening on that side of the world? How can we like cherry pick people from Africa or Canada or Mexico? We just did an initiative for Roadmap that is from Mexico. And it was so amazing. And I'm, to me, I'm becoming a little bit more passionate about helping Roadmap, Like even in their own territory at first and building your name there a little bit. But yeah, I think nowadays, unless you want to be staffed, that's a little different. 

Meg: Yeah. I think it's great to be from someplace else like Joey said. So I don't think that's a negative. I think that's actually a positive and, it's getting so international in terms of Netflix has. Netflix all over the world now, right? So I think they're opening up to it too. So I think it's a good thing. 

Joey: And embrace it. I get not frustrated because there's more things to be frustrated about, but when I read somebody who lives like, let's say in Africa and I read their script and it's a romantic comedy that takes place in Los Angeles, it's Oh, but you're in such an exciting place. You should capitalize on that because now you're just now part of another mountain of scripts that are. They're similar. So embrace what you have. 

Meg: Such good advice. Embrace your special, special uniqueness. 

Joey: Yes.

Savana: Yeah that's great. And to just dovetail on that, Elsa asks so how do you get your first meeting with no connections at all?

Joey: That's the question, isn't it? To me, it's okay, let me just gather my thoughts. So that is a great question. And there's a lot of different ways, but it's also a lot of just a few ways, but obviously there's cold, currying. I'm not the biggest fan of cold currying. I don't think it's that beneficial unless there's a very specific reason why you're reaching out to somebody and making that query very specific. I know Roadmap, we do a bunch of free initiatives just to see what else is out there. One of the Roadmap we got signed a couple of years ago, she just submitted for something and I just had more time at that time and I was reading everybody's material. I read hers. I loved it. I got her signed and helped her get signed to three arts and then she got staffed on Mayans MC. So it's just For us, for Roadmap, look at our free initiatives. Anybody's always welcome to email me. That doesn't mean I'm going to be like, yes, let me spend a Saturday night reading three of your scripts and seeing what I could do. But I would say I hate saying, there's some contests out there that are amazing. 

Meg: I was going to ask you about contests because I think that's another way people think they'll get through. What's your opinion about that? 

Joey: Yeah, I think that what you, what Roadmap should do is know that winning a contest is good, of course, a good contest. But also it doesn't mean people are knocking on your door. Like you have to use that and use it as leverage. There's page awards, there's slam dance, there's nickel, there's, there's a few that have the same story. Send a story, oh my God, I'm upset. A story, love them. There's a few that really matter or that execs understand.

It's just how you use it as leverage. And there's some Roadmap that email me like. Every month or so, something like this just happened. This just happened. This just happened. And granted I would, if you're not in the program, I can only do so much, but there's sometimes I'm like, Oh, that's actually quite interesting. Let me see if I can help you along and introduce a couple of people. I know you're doing the legwork. So yeah, contests are good. Free initiatives are good. That we do. 

Meg: And it is, it can be six degrees of separation. I don't discount your aunt's cousin's nephew's kid, who's living here and is an assistant somewhere.

You never know. You never know. Have that person read it. Because, you don't know, everybody in L. A. is looking for a chip to play, right? And the chip, you might become the chip to play. Versus sometimes you're asking you're asking people to give a chip, because now that they have to read you instead of something else.

But, you never know with those degrees of separation. And if you don't have that, I do think contests are a way to do it, because it's in a story, you end up going there, you meet all of these people, all of these professional Roadmap, all these directors, all these executives, you're meeting all And more importantly, all of the other Roadmap.

I think going to the Austin film festival is another great way. Not because you're going to meet me and I'm going to be like, you're a genius and I have to help you get repped. It's much more about, you're going to meet all the other Roadmap and your six degrees of separation just got a lot bigger because you never know who's going to know who.

And I started, you start groups. I started a group when I was young and just came into this industry. I just said, okay, I'm an assistant. There's all these assistants. We don't know what's going on. Let's start a group. And we just, I just gathered them together. I did that when I was a producer. I've done that as a writer. Now you can build your own community to start that kind of threading out for the best possible reason, which is to help each other. 

Joey: Yeah. And that's what you said about assistance is so important. There's definitely Roadmap who think I don't want to talk to an assistant, they're below me. I don't want to talk to a junior executive. They're below me. They can't do anything for me. When, in fact, they can maybe do more for you than anybody else. 

Meg: They can do so much more. 

Joey: First up, assistants move to different companies all the time. So now you have different places that could be right for your script. They're more hungry. They're, like, more excited. They're not jaded yet. So don't discount assistants. In fact, send a story. I can't say who yet, but there was a writer I'm working with who met a manager at CineStory, and they had a great conversation, and that was it, and then I was working with the writer, and he told me about this manager, so I reached out to him, and he's oh yeah, I remember him, he's great, and then they just met, and the manager just offered him representation recently. But yeah, CineStory is awesome too. 

Meg: Yeah, you never know who you're gonna Meet on a zoom or just, start a group. Come to the Facebook group. I'm not telling you're going to manage her there, but we're trying to create community for this very reason to help support you. Because it can get lonely out there. 

Joey: Have social media. Am I the most annoying person ever? Go social media presence as well. And be positive with what you're putting out there. There's a writer, Suzanne Griffin, who is so good at being able to promote herself on Twitter about the contest placement.

She has a great Blacklist review and there's some managers I talked to and I mentioned Suzanne and they're like, Oh yeah, Suzanne from Twitter has a social media presence. I know Twitter is scary. I'm terrified, but also be positive of what you're putting out there because people that's one way to get people's orbits.

Meg: Oh, I think I'm not a social media person. So if you're not either don't worry. It's okay. It is, you know, trying but the most important thing I want to highlight is to be positive because there is a thing in Hollywood about life being too short. You might be a great writer, but life is way too short.

You're gonna be so high maintenance. You're gonna complain all the time. Blah, blah, blah. Either you're, if you're making them a hundred million dollars, they'll put up with the life being too short. But as soon as you're not making them a hundred million dollars anymore, They're not putting up with it anymore. And I'm not saying be fake, don't be fake, but just think about what you're putting up.

Savana: So true. Okay. So Sabrina asks when I'm considering which manager is right for me, should I look for one that already has a ton of other Roadmaps in my genre, just a few or none at all? She's thinking about the competition within the management company, or maybe if they have lots of Roadmap in my genre, then that's good for me, potentially, because the manager has tons of contacts in that particular arena.

Joey: That's a great question. That's such a great question. First off, I would say, if a manager has a lot of people in your Rolodex or in your, you write the same page. That's a great question. A good manager would say, okay, I already have somebody in that space. So I don't know if I'm going, maybe not a good manager. I shouldn't say that, but because then it starts like cannibalizing each other. But I also think probably what I, if you're figuring out which manager to go with, I think also look at their clients. And if you know somebody who knows somebody that is that client, ask them, like, how do you like working with them with that manager?

And they could give you obviously the behind the curtains feel of what it's like to work with them. I think you also have to be aware of how many clients a manager has. If they have a million, then it's probably not, that might not give you the best attention. But I think it's more important to know what kind of Roadmap they have.

There's a writer. I work with Kate Hanyuk, who I'm like eagerly obsessed with, like you Meg. So I'm illegally obsessed with you and she's so clever. And she likes it, she wants to be signed with somebody who she's like the lowest person on the totem pole in terms of the clients. If she's the highest, then there's really maybe that manager can't do as much for her because she's already like the most established writer. But if they have people that are above you or not that are more established than you, then that to me is more exciting. 

Meg: I think that's great advice. Wow. That's really good advice. 

Now, what if you, a lot of people get brand new managers, like they're just starting. Right. And you feel so excited to get a, he's gone out on his own. Right. What's the downside, the good side of that of course is they're going to make money when you make money. So they need you to, they're going to give you attention, but what's the downsides of that kind of new manager? New, newly minted. 

Joey: Yeah. Such a good question. 

Meg: There can be predators out there who aren't really managers too, which we could talk about.

Joey: Yeah. To be honest, some of our biggest success stories in terms of Roadmap who have gone signed or for more of the boutique companies, not the top three or whatever. So I think first off, if there's just they just started out and there's, they don't have anybody else yet. Let me actually backtrack. Don't sign with the first manager who offers you representation. If they're like that, I want to sign you. Yes, I've made it. I am valid. Yeah. Meet a couple of reps first and try to see which one you vibe with the most. The pros of having a rep by themselves is, like Meg was saying, they're hungrier 'because they have to be to live.

They don't have the support of a three Arts or man or entertainment 360. But also keep in mind first off, maybe. Why did they leave their other company? Was it for specific reasons? Whatever those reasons are. But in a meeting, ask them like, okay, this is what I want. How can you help me get there? And hopefully they have specific answers. And if they don't, if they're general and they probably don't have the context to help you. 

Meg: That's so good, listen to what he's saying. You have to go in and know what you want, where's the career you want, and this person is there to help you get it. So you're interviewing them. Do they, like he said, do they have the context to get you there? And when they talk about your script, how do they talk about it? Right? Because if they're only talking about the genre, and they're not talking about voice, and they're not talking about what you love about it, that might be a problem. I'm not saying don't sign with them, I'll never say that. But like that, you guys have to jive and like the same thing and that they can represent you, they're going to go out in the world and talk to execs and represent you. How are they going to represent you? You're going to know by how they speak to you about your work and what they love about it.

Joey: I love that.

Savana: We have a question here from James that I think is interesting. This speaks to, maybe The landscape right now or what next year is going to look like. So the question is, do you think it would be better to polish our feature samples or TV if we're seeking a manager in the next year, just in terms of the landscape of the industry right now?

Joey: I would say whichever one the cop out answer is like whichever one is the strongest is the best choice because if your TV is stronger, if you're a stronger TV writer and I'm saying do your feature, then that's going to devalue it. But I would say if your goal is not to be staffed. Then I would say probably maybe a little bit more in the feature space, but I would say whatever, I guess the cop out answer would be like, whatever one is your stronger sample is the one you should lead with. Because 

Meg: They're looking for a voice, they're looking for the writing, right? But I do think, but hand in hand with that, if you, like you said, if you don't want to be staffed, do your best.

Savana: Yeah. And we have a question here from April about, maybe it's a little bit related to voice as well. And she writes, I found it hard as a Black woman to have my voice understood with non code switching characters. When she's found that most of the reviewers or judges are white, black Roadmap loves it though. What are your thoughts there? Any advice on how to handle something like that?

Joey: Yes, don't change it. That has been my biggest advice because You will find the people that do get it and connect with it. And if you are trying to dilute it, try to appease everybody, you're going to lose the specialness of it.

You're going to lose like. your voice and who you are and how it's injected into the story. So I would say the biggest thing is don't bend to what other people don't, you, I could teach Roadmap a few things, especially like a little bit about their voice or whatever, but I would never tell the writer, this is your voice.

This is, I'm telling you, your voice is this, because that's the most unhelpful thing ever, and it's damaging. Don't try to appease everybody. You will find the people that connect with your voice, and you're going to be so happy that you didn't change it.

Meg: Yeah, and I can understand the frustration, because you're trying to enter these big, massive contests, and A lot of the people judging those first few rounds of contests are like college kids that they got to because there's so many scripts. So I, yeah, I would be careful who, who, don't change it for that, but I can understand the frustration possibly because you can't get up in the contest. So how do you get noticed? Right? So Joey, if you have such a specific voice, is not. working in this contest route. How else can you go about it other than going to read my binders?

Joey: The other thing too, is that cause I'm gay. And when I read a script with gay characters, sometimes. It's so specific to the gay world that even I'm like, this is where I live. I don't know if it's so familiar that I'm not as inspired by it, I guess, but what's thematic, the overall thematic premise that it doesn't matter if you're black, gay, white, straight, whatever. We could still connect with it, right? So it's like really honing in on, especially when you're pitching to, it's what are the themes? It doesn't matter who you are. We connect with wanting to be loved, lost power, greed, all that stuff. So like really hitting that a little harder. That being said, there's so many initiatives out there that focus on diversity. The inevitable foundation for Roadmap with visible or invisible or non visible disability. They're amazing. Definitely suggest a Roadmap look at that. Home and Grad has great mentorships. I know Netflix always has a bunch of mentorships. I would say instead of going to like the general contest, if you feel like that's not the route for you, go to the more of the initiatives, go to the diversity initiatives. There's so many out there right now that cater to Roadmap that have a specific voice. 

Meg: And I just want to say, I just want to go back to what you said first.

That's such good advice. When I worked for Jodie Foster, she used to talk about the human condition. What are you delving into in the human condition so that, yes, you have to get specific, absolutely, with the character, but thematically, any human in any country should be able to feel it because it's about being a human being and something you have to say about that.

Savana: Yeah, great point. Here's an interesting question. And I know we only have a time for a few more, but this is from Steven. How do I know when it's time to end my relationship with a manager? 

Meg: Oh, that's great. 

Joey: Yeah. Look, we've had 370 Roadmaps signed. Has every single one of them been the best match in the entire world? Of course not. It is important. First off, I think having those kinds of hard hitting questions at the beginning is what I want. Can you help me get there? Not just jumping in like you want to sign me. Great. Let's do it. But ask here's what I want. Here's the kind of companies I want to get in front of.

Can you help me with that? But I will say that some signs of maybe it's time to move on is First off, I feel like if they're not communicating, if they're not communicating with you anymore, obviously that's a big thing. If you feel like you have to try to get them to respond, it takes them three emails to respond, but at the same time, having expert, having 

real clients. Yeah. But if they don't respond, I was talking to a writer the other day that they had a rep for two years and they said they didn't get back to me in two weeks from my last email. Should I drop them? I'm like, no, don't. They're probably just busy. But in terms of if you feel like you're sending your person script after script and they're passing, passing, and not giving notes or like suggestions could possibly help.

I would think that's a sign of maybe the voice is not connecting anymore. If they're not sending you up, if it's been quite a while that you've gone on a general meeting then I think that's assigned to you, but also you have to keep giving your manager stuff you have to, or your agent, you have to give them scripts.

You have to give them things. If you place in a diversity initiative or an initiative give them ammunition. It's not just like them being like, okay, I'm signed. Why haven't you gotten me anything in three months? It's they, what you give them is the ammo that they have. To help get you out there. So make sure that you're providing them with things. And if you feel like you are providing them with things and there's just crickets, then I would say usually around like the six month to year part, it's okay, nothing's happened. Maybe it's time to move on. There's also things that I tell Roadmap to, if you have a manager and it's not maybe moving as fast as you want, maybe you reach out to them and say, do you think I should get an agent?

A couple of things might happen. One is it'll put fire under the manager's butt. Cause Oh shoot, now maybe they're looking to leave or I don't want to look, whatever. Also, it might give the manager a way out to be like, actually, maybe you should. And also this isn't really, but also you have somebody else in your team, especially now with the industry being so weird. I think you should have a hefty team to help you. 

Meg: Yeah, I think that how do you leave a manager? There's a lot of different advice, right? Some people say get another one before you leave yours, but then when you're out there, You don't want them to hear that you're out there. Not that I'm leaving my manager, but I know people who've been in this bind and they had this question.

Joey: Definitely. If you are looking for another manager, then you do have to leave your manager first and it, cause it could get so messy and the new manager that might like you, if they find out you're wrapped, that's going to put a bad mouth, a bad taste in their mouth, because then they're like, are you gonna do the same thing to me?

So first off, you need to have a conversation with your rep. Look, this is how I'm feeling. What do you think? And have a really honest conversation. If it's been six months and nothing happened and you're giving them things and they're not performing and there wasn't a strike or something Then have a conversation with them and then really sit and what they said and what they think okay, you're right.

I haven't been focused on this. This is what I think we should do. And have those have goals. Okay. And in a few months, I would like to have a couple of generals with these kinds of people. Can you help me with this? But I think it's important to set goals sometimes. 

Meg: You set the goals, not the manager, you set the goals. I think people really, I think that, and I did this too. You'd think that a manager is like Santa, like it's just going to be some magic fairy dust. And now I get to be a professional writer because I have a manager. I'm going to, they're going to go out and do all the work and get me the jobs. And it's just, I'm not saying that isn't part of the manager's job, but they're your tool, go use them. What kind of career do you want? What do you want to be doing? What are you giving them to get there? Are you asking them things? Are you trying to set up generals? And when they come back and say, I think you should do this. This is the kind of stuff I think you should be writing or whatever. Do you agree? And if you don't agree, tell them you don't agree and what you actually want. What do they think about that? It's gotta be a conversation back and forth. And if you're making their job hard because you're not giving them things, you're just calling all the time and complaining. So they're going to be just like any human being. Any human being would be like, Oh, life's too short. 

Joey: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Savana: And speaking of expectations, Vivian asks, I think this is related. Besides the fact that we should have to feature scripts and maybe a pilot. What's the manager's expectations, like once you are signed with that manager, like how fast a writer can come up with a new script and I think what you're saying, it's all about having an open dialogue and setting your own milestones, but curious what you think, Joey.

Meg: You got to have pitches ready to go too, don't you think Joey? 

Joey: Yes, totally. When you're going into a meeting with the rep, it's not just the scripts that you have currently, is it what else you have in your arsenal as well? Because what could happen with the manager is that they. They like one of your scripts. Obviously they signed you. They'll get, they'll start setting that one out while you guys are developing something else together. Maybe it's an idea that you had that you're like, yes, let's get this one out, but then we'll develop this one together or you develop it and we'll give you notes on it. It's, and it's also there was a writer that we had earlier this year that helped get Brandon to heroes and villains and He had a few samples and it was a really big kind of action packed sample. And they're like, we're going to send this one out. But then he's I also have this period piece that I want to get out there as well. I'm like, okay, we'll send it out as samples, but you know, it's a period piece. That's so hard. And he ended up setting it up on Netflix. It's really important to have a bunch of stuff, a bunch of ideas and stuff, because even if they think they're going to focus on one thing they never, you never know when the other thing you have in your back pocket might be the one that actually does something.

Meg: I tell them who you are, right? Thematically, I'm sure those big action things still spoke to the voice and the theme of this writer that came into this period piece. And I promise you, if they bought the period piece, they also know he can do it. He can write. Action and he can make it accessible.

Right. So absolutely. 

Joey: Can I tell you something? Let's be honest. We're being honest in this is halfway through what I just said. My soul left my body. I, my soul left my body and I'm like, what am I saying? It was too weird, and it'll happen on a pitch. I'm like, Hey, so emotionally, what was the last thing I remember saying?

Let me connect to it. And you  did, and we didn't even notice. I got through it. 

Savana:Y eah maybe as one of the last questions, there's just a few questions that are related. So I'm going to try to summarize. There's a lot of people asking just where can I find information on managers and where they work?

And, just more information about different management companies? Obviously Google is a great resource. Is there any other advice for Joey that you have for people to build their kind of arsenal lists of targets or management managers who seem to align with their own writing styles, et cetera, et cetera.

Joey: One thing I always tell Roadmap is look at the lists, look at the lists that come out, because usually those lists are for Roadmap that are like. up and coming or not super established yet. And then you see the reps that rep what list? 

Meg: Wait. What list? When you say look at the list, what is the list?

Joey: The next one just came out. The blood list. Yeah. All like the list of the best ofs. And then you see who represents them. You'll see them, like WMEs, but then you might see companies that you're not as familiar with. But I know that manager is good enough. Cause it's all about campaigning.

It's all about it's not just like somebody who owns a list. It's okay, let me put it in a bingo thing and pick one. Okay. 

This one is this one. It's a lot like campaigning, getting votes. So it's that, that manager is good enough to like, at least have the relationships that get that person on the list a lot of the time.

So I would look at the best of lists and see who represents those Roadmaps. I think that's a really good way to start building a Rolodex of the companies that maybe you're not as familiar with, but you see their name often on the list, that's somebody I want to target. Cause you know, that they're open to up and coming Roadmap. 

Meg: That's a great suggestion. And what about if I see a movie that's in the pot of my, it may not be the same genre, but it has the same feeling. This person, could you, do you ever go and see who represents that writer in terms of a manager, or do you really feel like the lists are more way to go?

Joey: I'd love to list. That's definitely too, like if a right, if a manager reps a filmmaker or writer that you really like that could be a target for you as well at the very least you go into that meeting if you do get the meeting and you could talk intelligently about their client list. 

Meg: So it’s better if you go into a manager meeting know all of their client lists and who they rep and yeah, absolutely.

Joey: No, you have to go in and do your homework. Exacts are inundated with pitches and can you sign me? Can you do this? Can you do that? But it's the ones that are like, Hey, I like what you've done. I like this client. I like what you've accomplished. It takes them like, oh wow, this, now this is going to be a two way street. It's not you who does this to me, does this to me, does this to me, but it's a human connection, which I, is so important.

Meg: That's awesome. What a great way to end, I think. What do you think? Yeah. 

Savana: Yeah. Oh also, I'm seeing now, Lorien's asking if hyenas were talked about at all, because that's very important. 

Meg: I don't think we saw any hyenas. Maybe next year. Maybe we'll see it in October. We'll see some hyenas. Put in an order. 

Joey: The safari that we've been doing, is, it's not even, it's not real. It's Insane and so beautiful and creative and makes you step outside your comfort zone so much that you leave and you're like, I could conquer the world.

Meg: You have your own little bungalow and then you come down in the morning, you get on the truck before dark and you go out as the sun is rising because that's when the animals are walking around. And it's me sitting with all the Roadmap. Like you're just all squished together in a truck and there's three trucks going out. When you come back, you have a chance to take a shower. You come down and eat. Breakfast. And then we hear the seminar of the mentor for that day. And then we go into our separate writing groups, right? And then we have tea and then we go, and then we hear pitches. So everybody, so if you come, I'll hear your pitch.

Everybody will hear your pitch just again, just to help you. So you're going to get exposure to all the different mentors that are there. And then we went on safari again. And we let the sun go down and see the animals as the sun goes down. And then at night, Eve always has something special planned for the evening. And I won't say anything cause there's surprises, but Holy mackerel, there are great surprises. 

Joey: You'll be like out on a safari and all of a sudden like the van stops and they have like coffees and hot chocolate. 

Meg: Oh yeah. That's fun. Yeah. The van pulls over and they, and you camp out. You're always in a safe place, obviously. The animals are right there. They're right there. And It's amazing. It's, it is, I took my kids to Africa and it was life changing and I worked my Roadmap, I worked with them. We, I don't know if they just came to go to Africa because I'm assuming if you're here to work on your script, we're gonna work on your script.

I'm sure Joey's the same. If you're here to be branded and figure out your bio, let's go. Yeah. We want you to leave. Having this kind of soulful experience, but we also want you to leave knowing yourself better as a writer, as a person, so that you can, and I think pretty much every, I don't know, I, I didn't see a writer who didn't leave utterly inspired it is something to consider if you want to come with us to Africa, and if not, half of you are like, oh right, I wish I could go to Africa!

I know! That's why we have more accessible things over on The Screenwriting Life. We have more, you can still come talk to us on Patreon. We won't be seeing hyenas, but we'll still answer your questions. And TSL Workshops come over there. Because we can answer your questions. We take pitches and stuff over there.

Joey: If you feel like, Oh my God, I'm going to Africa. That's so scary. I promise you Eve who runs it. Every second is already figured out. You won't be like, what am I going to do? Like she has literally created this week of every second is accounted for. There will always be something that you will be doing or you can do.  

Meg: And if you don't want to go on this far and you want to lay by your pool, lay by your pool. Does not matter. I went on every one because I became obsessed with seeing the animals. All right. Joey, thank you so much for joining us.

Joey: And look, I would be remiss if I didn't say, if you live in LA and you want to adopt a dog, there's so many dogs that need homes. If you follow me, every post I make is about a dog in need. So you're looking for a dog. Let me know. 

Meg: On Joey's Facebook page, there are dogs there to adopt. He's amazing. He's a hero. I think they should do a TV show about him and how he goes into really sketchy situations and saves dogs. 

Joey: Every day is a panic attack, but awesome. Everybody, thank you so much, Meg. Obsessed. Savana you're amazing. Obsessed. Thank you so much. And we'll all talk soon. Okay. Bye guys. 

Jeff: And I hate to steal Lorien's thunder here, but I feel like we can't end an episode without saying it. Remember, you are not alone and keep writing.