219 | Practical Ways To Treat an Inactive Protagonist

We talk about ACTIVE protagonists all the time on the show, but we know that creating one is easier said than done. Luckily, Meg and Lorien have a laundry list of practical exercises you can explore today to bring your protagonist to life.

But first, we talk with longtime TSL listener and TSL Workshops member Laurel Senick about a lovely, lava-filled email she sent us.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna, and on the show we talk a lot about active main characters and making sure they drive the plot, which is easier said than done. 

Meg: Because of that, we wanted to discuss it and talk about a list of some strategies that you can implement in your own writing to diagnose or treat inactive protagonists in your work.

Lorien: But before we do that, we're going to be chatting with TSL listener Laurel Senick about a lovely and vulnerable email she sent us that we all related to. Laurel is a member of our TSL workshop community, which includes monthly story workshops where our members get to get feedback from us about ideas they're working through.

And Laurel recently shared her really fun idea for an animated TV kids show, and she experienced a complicated cocktail of emotions after getting notes from us. And as writers, we really understood where you were coming from. So Laura, welcome to the show. 

Laurel: Thank you. And I see that crying pillow back there. I could have used this. 

Meg: Yes. Lorien and I both have crying pillows, TSL crying pillows, which we highly recommend to everybody. Laurel, would you mind reading the email you sent us? 

Laurel: Sure. Dear TSL, I want to share some feedback and a tiny confession about the story workshop. I hope you won't think I'm nuts, but as I digest it all, I realize I'm way more nuts than I ever gave myself credit for.

As soon as Meg said, why surfers? I hit a fourth dimension crazy. I told my husband she had an issue with surfers and we speculated that a ne'er do well surfer broke her heart. Over and over I replayed these lines. Do you love capers? I didn't hear you say you love capers. Wishing I'd said, I love capers so damn much that I eat them every day at every damn meal.

For two days, I grumped on the couch eating popcorn and binge watching anything but capers. Why did Lorian tell us we were all gonna sing Kumbaya over my pitch? I felt gaslit. I could barely listen to the podcast. After two weeks of loathing you, me, my project, I braved the Circle app. Just a peek. I remembered a few nice comments had popped on the screen, but the chat started with the second pitch. Figures.

Finally, I hit the play button, if only to confirm the injustice. Ah, yes. Lorian's encouragement to be kind. Surprised they'd left that in there. And then, there it was in the clear blue light of Zoom. Meg hadn't torn it apart. She'd given direction and critical feedback, the things I needed to tackle on the next draft. Or God will in the next pitch. 

They both offered ways of making it better. Did they say feature? I had forgotten. How did I get it so wrong? Really, I'm asking. I'm pretty sure now I gaslit my own damn self. That can't be normal. Meg wasn't a dream killer. And she probably doesn't even hate surfers. 

Oh, the feedback, please tell the pitchees to go back and look at their pitch later. A couple of weeks creates the right amount of distance. All my anger, as misguided as it was, helped me land on a theme for another project. After learning from Pat it needed to be a claim, not just a topic. I've been swimming in jello, but with your help, lava happened. You can't forgive until you get good and mad at what they did. And boy, it felt good to write that scene. We'll see if it sticks, but it works for now. 

Thank y'all so much for building the TSL community and giving so much of yourselves. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and hearts with us. Thank you for taking the risk involved with caring for messy people. I really don't deserve you, but you already know that now.

May all your dreams come true. Oral, walnuts, cynic. P.S. I apologize for the mean things I said about you in my head and to my husband. P.S.S. I haven't confessed this to him yet because the embarrassment still stings like hell, but I promise I will. Another two weeks. P.S.S.S. I need to apologize to myself for the biggest shit show to hit my brain since the toxic mushroom incident in college, but you didn't need to know that.

Meg: Yay. 

Lorien: Such a good letter. Thank you so much. 

Jeff: It's very well read. It was just, you, I think you're an actress too, even if you don't know it. That was really great. 

Meg: And I do not hate surfers. 

Lorien: And I don't know the words to Kumbaya. So 

Meg: It's so classic. I do it every time I get notes or I yell at my husband about like, they're so dumb and why would they say that?

And then thankfully it doesn't take me two weeks anymore. Like an hour later, I'm like, oh my God, they're totally right. And we have to do that. And it's so funny. Isn't it the way your brain does that? Like it just, I don't know what it is.

Laurel: I was shocked. I've been in a writer's group for years, but it's really been in the creative writing side and books and nonfiction and fiction.

And so we do cold reads and critique. So, you know, I felt like I was prepared for this, but it was like, I had all this little for your cheat sheet for a pitch. I had all that filled out and I was ready for those questions. And when you hit me with surfers, I was like, oh, I was gone. 

Lorien: Do you think it was even more intimidating to have like a bunch of people you don't know listening to the pitch as well? Or did you just block that out? 

Laurel: I probably, I think I blocked that out. I think I had just invested already so much into it being surfers and I mean, that's kind of what inspires me. So, but when I got away from it and did all the things, once I like, you know, binged and what, all that, but the note under the note, which is something that y'all mentioned was it's the hook. It needed to be a better hook and the engine and I get, and it helped to listen to it again because I couldn't even see past like the rage in my eyes and my brain and my soul. It's ridiculous. 

Lorien: That's such a critical part is listening to it again. I once got notes on a script I'd written and I loved it. And I thought it was great. And a part of me was like, I'm so looking forward to feedback, but I was also hoping it would be like, this is fantastic.

Laurel: Of course. 

Lorien: Right, like, what? And that they were just going to add on things they were excited about rather than asking me to work on the theme and act two, right? And I disassociated really hard and I got too scared to listen to the notes back. Someone took, or not, we didn't record it, but it was written. I got so scared to even read the notes because I thought I was going to go into that weird, disassociative, crying, freaking out panic place.

So I am proud of you. I don't mean to sound that, but like that you went back and actually re-watched it, re-watched yourself pitching. Like, that's, that's very brave. So good for you. 

Laurel: Thank you.

Meg: And it's, you know, it's what a, it's what pros have to do. You know, like if you're gonna do this for a living you can have those reactions 'cause you're human, right?

And you do the great face up front, like, sure, uh huh. Yeah I’ll think about it, right? And then you have your meltdown or whatever it is. And then you have to get to what's next, you know? And if you're on a deadline, you better get there pretty quick. Right. 

Laurel: Yeah. 

Meg: But that is writing. Writing is getting to what's next. Even if you have to go back and read it and see, okay, what's really there and dissect it. And you know, at Pixar, we would just go to the whiteboard and write, you know, what are the biggest notes that are, we're responding to. Okay. Let's break it down. Let's do one. Right. We don’t have to do all of these.

What's the biggest one? Let's start there. Like you're, you got to the hook. Right. Like that's a big note. Right. That is a foundational note. And the rest of the notes, honestly, you can just put aside until you figure that out because they could all change, right? 

And it's funny because on our workshops, the only way we can kind of get down to, cause we're just hearing it. We're not reading it. We don't, you know, we only have maybe 20 minutes, a half hour with you. So. We just have to ask questions to try to figure out what is off, there's something off. Why is it not grabbing me? Is it just the way it's pitched? No, there's something deeper. 

So that's when we start asking like, okay, why surfers? Like, we're trying to dig into you to find the hook. Does that make sense? And so in a way, I think that when you're with friends or consultants or on our workshop, we are really trying to dig into you. In a good way, not in a mean way. What are you trying to say? We're not getting your dream yet. Now, when you're a pro, they don't, that's not what they're doing.

They're literally going, this doesn't work. And that doesn't work. And this doesn't work. And we don't think this works. And why are you doing that? And then you got to go figure it out. Right. But I really, I, we so admired not just your bravery of facing it and the rage, but you know, to send the letter and let us know, Hey, I was pretty mad at you. I love that. 

Laurel: Well, thank you. I'm going to try and shorten my bounce back time from two weeks to maybe a week next time, and then maybe I'll get to the day or a few hours. 

Meg: And it does get shorter, but it also depends on the project, honestly. Some projects, I don't have that at all, and I'm just like, yeah, that's cool, and I knew it didn't work, and I'm bummed, but I was right, but, and I can jump in. But other ones are just too close to my heart and you do, you just have a, like you said, you love it so much, and you love surfers, right?

So it was hard to have us ask why surfers, right? So in a way it shows how close you are to it, which is a good thing, right? To have that emotional reaction shows that there really is stuff in there, right? 

Lorien: And why surfers isn't, what if it was space cowboys? It's no, really tell us why surfers are important to you, right?

A lot of times we hear notes and we, what the note is asking and what we think is actually asking, that gets, there's some laps in there, right. Cause it wasn't like, why surfers? I don't get it. It was more like–

Laurel: That’s what I heard.

Lorien: But it was like, why to you is this the story you have to tell right now? And so we were looking for you to like, come up with that, the lava in it, right. That personal, which can lead to a hook and an engine. 

Jeff: There's something too, I, okay, especially if you're talking to people you admire where them asking questions, it can feel like an attack. Or worse, it can feel like the subtext is you're a bad writer. And when people are asking you questions, they're not saying you're a bad writer.

In fact, I think for the most part, we probably take as a given that most of our TSL workshops members are good writers, but structural questions and foundational hook–these are different from whether or not you know how to write, in a different way. 

I don't know if that's making any sense, but it is, there's separate questions often, but they get all conflated. And sometimes I'm just hearing, you should just give up, which is not at all what notes are, but it can feel that way. 

Meg: It's so funny when you're the note giver. You can, we, I'll just speak for myself. I can get so into the story math. Cause I'm a junkie about story that I'm just like, what's this working?

Why aren't I getting it? What is happening? Is it this? Is it this? I just did this yesterday at a coffee shop with my friend who's a director. And we just went around and around. I'm like, is it this? Are you saying that? What about the wife? Is it the mother? Blah, blah, blah. And then finally, after like an hour and a half, I was like, oh, it's the brother.

And he goes, what do you mean? And I go, he's coming back to do this. It's not that, it's this. And then we both got tears in our eyes. 

Laurel: That's a good moment. 

Meg: Right? Like that's such a good moment. But we, he had to sit there through a barrage of questions and digging and it's not working and, you know, somehow it's just part of this, you know, splunking process that we go through. 

And if you can stand in it as curiosity and that, you know, I think it's easier. And, you know, Lorien and I, we will try to remind people of this more before we start. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Laurel: No, you do. You totally remind us. 

Lorien: But I think it's too, it's coming into it and remembering that when you're getting feedback, you're not being challenged. We're trying to collaborate with you, right? It's not like, okay, defend your story and tell us, answer these questions for us. It really is like, let's dig into this. So, you know, maybe there is something we can adjust, you know, because Meg and I'll be like, it’s not–

Meg: We're taking the note. We need to take the note, Lorien.

Lorien: Yeah. Which I think is really helpful that it's more about that slow building the trust, even in that moment, right? And then sort of then finding a place when we feel like, okay, now we can get in. I think we don't have a ton of time for everybody. 

Meg: Well it’s because, we only have a half hour. So we just want to jump in as fast as we can to get as much help as we can. But I love that, Lorien. It's collaboration. 

Laurel: Definitely. I remember you said why not nerds? But then that was like, they don't even want sand on their feet. I was like, you know, the one in my mind, like crazy. But I appreciate you guys so very much because once I was able to come back and read it or listen to it, my brain was free again to be creative.

And so I could bring in, oh, I've got this other thing that I started that was a little, had more depth. I could probably marry the two. And–

Meg: I love that.

Laurel: We'll see. 

Lorien: Well, please–

Laurel: Thank you. 

Lorien: Keep us updated on how the project goes. Cause one of the reasons we got so into it and so excited is that we thought there was a lot of, you know, there's something there. So we were like, okay, we're really excited about it. And so, the more excited we get with that, like that usually means like, okay, there's something there. So. We want to know where it goes and what it is. 

Meg: Now you realize you have to come back and pitch the new version. Sorry. Yeah.

Laurel: Oh, yes. That'll be next year, no. 

Meg: That's like in two months, so. 

Laurel: Yeah. Oh yeah. Long time. Long time.

Meg: Right, thanks so much to Laurel for coming on the show and writing that great letter. That was super fun. But okay, Lorien, let's talk about it. Our topic.

Lorien: Great.

Meg: Inactive main characters. 

Lorien: So there's a lot of words when we talk about inactive or active, like agency. You hear that a lot when you're getting notes, this character has agency. So why don't we talk about what we mean by active.

Meg: Agency. Yes, let's talk about agency. What's interesting is, you know, I'm like here on this show as some sort of expert talking about this topic. And about, I don't know, maybe it was two years ago I wrote a script and it was for a very big director and the director's producer came back and said, you know, she has no agency.

And I was like, oh my God. Oh my god. So, it's an easy thing to do. 

Lorien: Did you agree with the note? 

Meg: Well, just like Laurel, at first I was like, that is crazy! He doesn’t know what he's talking about! He doesn't like me! Or whatever it is that happens in your brain. And then you're like, oh yeah, no, I understand. It was in key moments, right? She wasn't, those key plot moments were not being turned by her. 

But, so what is agency? If you look it up in the dictionary, it says action or intervention, especially such as to produce a particular effect. Right, so it's not for its own, on its own, it's to produce an effect. A thing or a person that acts to produce a particular result.

I thought the early 17th century and the senses in the wait, ah. So in the early 17th century where the word comes from, it's a sense of position or function of an agent. And the ability to act. So the ability to act. I love that because of course I want my characters to have the ability to act. Of course we do. We love them. We don't want to not have them have the ability to act. So when we say the ability to act, we're talking about create and drive the plot. Right? 

And I'm telling you guys, having worked for an actor for ten years, they know if they're creating the plot or just responding to it. They know, deeply, if they have the agency and are creating the story. And, you know, if your character does not have the ability to act, you really have to ask yourself, why? Right, why is my character not having that ability to act? And is that good? Is that good for the story? Is that the story you're telling?

It really becomes the whole story, doesn't it? I think in a way. If you're saying no, that's my story. My character doesn't have the ability to act. Well, then that is really thematically what you're doing because it's so huge. It's so huge. So you really have to get kind of honest with yourself. And you know, we're talking about want, right?

How do you get, how do you create agency in a character? It's really about want, don't you think, Laurien? 

Lorien: Yeah, absolutely. And the definition, absolutely, I say, like a sportscaster. Where did that come from? I don't know. Absolutely, Meg. Out here in the story of screenwriting life the. 

Even the definition is to produce a particular effect, right? It's not just doing something. You have a goal. You have a want in trying to do that thing. 

Meg: It may not produce the effect you want, right? 

Lorien: Right, but then you have to come up with a new strategy.

Meg: But you had the desire. You had the desire and you acted on it. It's not just a desire they're not acting on, right? They have a desire and they're deciding in Act 1 they're gonna act on it. They could be forced into it, that's fine. If you want an Act 1, they're forced into it. But still, even after they're forced into it, you know. 

It's like, she gets blown away by a tornado, Dorothy. But she still decides to go on the yellow brick road and go to the wizard. It's not all just happenstance. She makes that choice, right? And I love that shot of her shoe. She's going to go, right? She's making her choice. 

So I think it's coming down to want, which is my new favorite topic. We're talking about having a whole possibly seminar on it at AFF this year. You know, cause want is telling us who the character is and driving the plot, but it's also, think about that, it’s telling us who your character is, right? It's going to create conflict immediately because they want something. 

They're creating a plot. What is in conflict to that? It will create stakes. I want this. I can't have it. What are the stakes if I don't get it? It's like everything, everything tentacles back to creating that want in your character and giving them agency to go on the journey to try to get it, right?

You're also, the want is going to create probably a plan to get it, and if not, it's starting, they're becoming active. You're setting expectations that you then subvert in Act 2, right? So all of this engine of Act 1 is so tied often. 

Now listen, there's no, you know, right or wrong, black or white. We're just talking in general, right? That want is, and that agency really is creating so much of your plot and your drive and your story. 

I just wanted to talk about why, and I've talked about this in my belief seminar, but I think it's worth bringing up here. I have found in working with women that they really have a hard time with this. Not all, and it's not just women, but there is a predominant women issue about want and agency. 

I feel like, I wonder if it's because our culture really wants us to know what everybody else wants, right? It really wants us to service other people's wants and desires as a sort of survival mechanism, right? Or that's how we're a good person. And that for somehow to have our own wants is very dangerous. 

Now listen, what, three thousand years ago you got burned at the stake, and all kinds of, it's like a real thing in our brain that's coming down the ages, right? But women really need to think about want and can you feel it in your body. And why is, do you feel like you're gonna get punished if this character wants something, right? It, sometimes it becomes like a secret to me, right, like, well, If nobody ever knew that I wrote this or something. Like what, however you can get to get around this rule in your head. But I, so there's that.

It's like, it's a dangerous to have a want as a woman. And I also think a lot of women are afraid of their own power because I like, again, there could be punishment to that. What if you really are as powerful as you think you are? What if you really do have that much agency, right? And you don't have to pretend you don't.

What does that mean? Right? And I think that is, they're powerful questions that we have to ask ourselves so that we can imbue it with our character. And here's the great thing. Your character can do it. You don't have to do it. Though I have a friend who–

Lorien: Wish fulfillment! What do I wish I could have done in that situation?

Meg: Lorien and I do have a friend that I met actually when I was mentoring her in a program and all of her characters were so inactive and we just kept bringing it back to her and bringing it back to her and she suddenly got it. And she went home and like, changed her life. And so I am not suggesting you have to do that, right?

But it does have ripples, this idea of agency and thinking about where you have agency in your life. Especially for women, because I think there is a lot of pressure to be reactive or to service. 

Lorien: Yes, and I think part of that is that a lot of us are defined by or define ourselves in relation to other people in our relationships, right?

I'm so and so's wife. I'm so and so's mother. I'm so and so's daughter. And that means that the you of you is getting lost in those. I'm not saying that's bad. Everybody has a ahoice and like I'm proud to be a mom, you know, I decided to take my husband's last name when we got married, you know, like, not because I wanted to be defined as Mrs. McKenna, but because it felt important to me at the time. It was a choice I made and I liked having that choice. 

But what I what, you can lose in that is the you of you. And then everything you do is in reaction to those people that you're in relationship with, right? So if my husband has a bad day, it's my job to then help him, support him. My day can't be bad then, right? Because I have to react to that and be in a position where I can. And I think a lot of women, we think we have to be the center, the calm center that can weather things, which means that becomes our job.

And that's why it feels scary to want something, because you'll disrupt the dynamic that's been set up. So I–

Meg: And what often happens when I worked for Jodie, every script I read with a female character, she wanted either had to do with a kid. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Meg: Or a romance and a dude, which really is the same service we're talking about, right? Like, it couldn't be just like, she wants to save the world. And you get really weird notes like, is that right? Is that enough? And you're like, what? What are you talking about? 

Like, so I had to go read scripts written for male characters because men get to want whatever they want to want, right? Yes, they still have to, as characters, have stakes and we have to want what they want and they have a problem and all that stuff. 

But this agency really does affect female characters dramatically. Just dramatically it affects female characters. So, even if you're not a female but you're writing a female character, really go look at her agency and is she reacting to everything or is she responding? Right? It's a big difference. 

Lorien: So let's give an example of this, right? Just like, am I reacting? So, I just, I don't know, we'll make something up. There's a character and she's having a slow burn mental breakdown. Her brother shows up and says, I need your help, get a shovel. You know, let, you can't ask any questions, go. Right, so what is a, an inactive way? 

Meg: A reactive main character just does what he says and then when she, then she gets caught. And then they put, everything is happening to her and she's feeling, so this goes to victim, right? There is a kind of addiction to your character being a victim of the circumstance and that is somehow their power.

Their power is, my brother made me do this. Then the cops caught me because of him. Then I had to go and meet this woman in prison and she made me do this. There's no there now for the character. I don't even know who she is because it's all happening to her. We could put any character in there and those are situations happening to her, right?

And you know, victim power is very seductive, right? Because it does feel powerful. But the problem with victim power is there's no responsibility to it. There's no discovery of character, right? Again, I'm not talking about characters who are victimized or people. That's a different thing. There are victims, but let's say the holocaust, right?

The character is the one who's going to try to find agency within the most victimized situation you could possibly imagine, right? What I'm interested in is what is the response to it, not just that it happened. I want to know that it happened. I think that we all need to know that it happened. But as a story, I want to know the response of the character and how they start creating a different, they start creating a story, they start creating a plot, because of their response to this victimization, right? 

So, it's, again, not that you can't have a victim in your care, in your story, or that people aren't victimized. Just that a character is having a response to it. They are making choices. 

Lorien: So she could say, great, I have a shovel, but on the way there, we have to stop by the pharmacy, so I can get, you know, my medication.

Meg: Or he comes and says, let's bury her and she's like, what are you talking about? It'll just get dug up. We have to cut up the body and we have to get some acid and we've got to do this. Right. And she shifts the whole thing of where her brother was going to drive it. 

And he's like, you always do this. You always take control. And she's like, because I'm smarter than you just admit it. Come on, let's go. And she's right. But then she makes a mistake because she thinks she knows so much. And now they're going to get into trouble and get caught because of her. Not because of the situation that was thrust upon her, but because she made a choice, and because of that choice, she's now gonna get caught, because probably that choice has something to do with her flaw or her blind spot, right? Which is that she takes care of too many people. 

Let's just wrap this back in. She should have said to her brother, no, I'm not gonna bury the person with you. And instead, she goes overboard, gets OCD about it, and you see, it's a much more interesting, fun character. I wanna follow the OCD person who has to get rid of a body.

Jeff: I think one helpful way to think about this is: picture an actress and ask yourself, what would this actress do in this part? I always think of Jennifer Lawrence when I'm writing female characters and she often plays characters who are subjected by what is seemingly a victim situation, but she does something crazy and Jennifer Lawrence-y to get out of it.

So obviously the Hunger Games would be the classic example where all she's doing this whole time is like fighting back against this dystopian society. But she was in a movie I kind of liked last summer called No Hard Feelings where her house is being taken away because of these tax issues and she can't afford to pay the bills. So she decides to set up this crazy con with a 17 year old kid in her town. So I don't know if, that's helpful for me sometimes. 

Meg: Yeah, every character is going to be presented with a problem, right? And the bigger the problem, the bigger the story, right? Aliens coming to end the world is a problem versus they're going to sell my grandma's cabin. Right?

So the problem can create that, but it's the response to the problem, right? And here's why, you know, when we think about it, why does our brain create these passive characters? I think it's because we think we're them. 

We, it's our dream and our identity has gotten put into this person. And we really believe our life is happening to us. But of course it isn't. You're an adult. You're creating your life. It's not that things don't happen. It's not that, you know, things don't come out of the blue, but how you respond to them is how you start to create your life. Right? And we wrap them in bubble wrap psychologically because we don't want to hurt them, or see something bad happen to them, or But that is the whole point.

You gotta take a big stick and beat the crap out of them so we see what they do. Right? And that they do the thing that we only wish we could have done. Or we're afraid we would have done. Or there's a million versions of that, right? And it's really just about being brave enough to allow that agency forward.

I believe it's there. It's there. You're just trying to keep it down to protect yourself psychologically through that character. And you, it's a good question to ask yourself if you're getting this note a lot, why are you afraid to have your character have agency? Right? And really just sit down and do morning pages about it. You know, just ruminate a little bit about it. 

Lorien: Something to infer– Well, something to investigate is when something happens in your life, how are you reacting, how are you responding? And this usually reveals patterns and belief systems, right? And so, and it's scary to change. Right. So if you have the neighbor who comes and knocks on your door every day asking to borrow eggs, right. 

There are different ways, I know that's a terrible example, but like, you know, someone picks a fight with you every single day at work. Right. And what you really want to do is, you know, report them to HR or push them out a window or, you know, whatever it is, but what you do in order to get along is this other thing, which, and sometimes that's appropriate. I'm not saying subject yourself to harassment. 

Meg: And a great story would be that's how somebody's gotten along their whole life and today it's gonna change. 

Lorien: Right. 

Meg: Today, that ain't gonna work and you're gonna have to activate. Like, how fun would that be? And you know, Lorien, when you say that, I think, you know, the truth is, my father was a very powerful personality and there were five kids. It was total chaos. 

And when I really think about why for myself, my father taught me to be a really good respond– reactor. Right? I am really good at reacting in the moment to let's do this. Okay, but right but he used to say. If you did have a want and put yourself forward, he would say, who the hell do you think you are?

Well, that's gonna start quashing drive and want. And I feel like I'm trying to protect my characters unconsciously from the who the hell do you think you are reaction of the audience or the characters around her, right? Which right now means I have to go write this story, right? Because it's a wonderful question said in the right way.

Who are you? Who do you think you are? It's a really good question. So there's a question that's like an Andrew Stanton question, that can be, feel bad at first, but you can flip the exact same question and it's a positive. Who do you think you are? Right? I should have answered the question. Well, I did, in my own way.

But you know, so it's, it, this kind of investigation isn't just about your craft in terms of writing craft, which it is because you're going to make things active and the story is going to ignite. But it also is about all that emotional lava that can start flooding into the story and help feed it instead of douse it.

Lorien: Yeah, right. And I think one of the things that in this Want Workshop we're working on, Meg, is about, you have to know what it feels like to want something, and to really want that big scary thing. And feel that in your body so that you can all know how your characters are going to feel wanting that thing and what they're going to be willing to do to get it and what the plan might be.

One of the things I've always told my daughter is, you know, the whole make a wish, don't tell anyone, that whole thing. I'm always like, no, tell everyone, make a wish on your birthday? Tell me what it is. Make a wish at a fountain? Tell me what it is. Because if you don't tell me what it is, how can I help you make that happen?

And I think a lot of us are sort of trained not to be, I don't know if the word is ambitious, but just we're trained not to express those things because people might laugh at us or think it's ridiculous or–

Meg: Who the hell do you think you are? 

Lorien: Who do you think you are? Recently I was like, you know what I want? I want to talk show. I don't know what it's going to be about. I don't know what it would be, but like–

Meg: Wait a minute. Isn't that what this is? 

Lorien: I want to be on TV, Meg. 

Meg: Oh, okay. I love it. I love it. 

Lorien: I want a TV talk show. Right. So I'm admitting that to all of you. You know, so it's like, that is scary for me to admit that because it seems like, well, who would want to watch you on TV? Who do you think you are that you would get an audience, you know, like that? And it's like, well, I don't, I know who I am. I'm hilarious. So–

Meg: I love, I love Lorian that you said two things. You said one is willing to admit, willing, what are you willing to risk to do it? Like, there has to be a risk for this story to really fire. What is the risk of this want? Right? And you can look at your life, you can look at your past life, you can look at just stories if you want to, you can look at movies you love. What is the risk to this want? The risk to want it and the risk to not get it. Both. Right? 

And the other thing I think happens sometimes if we're not careful and we have buried our wants and our agency is you will start to pull down other people. You will start to wonder who the hell does he think he is. You will, because even if it's just a flash, right? And how dangerous if that's your child, right? Because it feels dangerous, you know, for your kid to want that. It feels dangerous for them to risk that. It feels dangerous. Right? So I love so much that you're doing the opposite with her, right?

Cause you could. If you were raised with this lack of agency, do the complete opposite, right? Or if you're somebody who lacks agency, you have to look at the people around you, even if they're family, and are they trying to undermine your agency? Because it is threatening to them. You know, that is, it's all very important stuff that, look at all the lava that comes up when you talk about want. It's bonkers, people. 

Lorien: It's scary. 

Meg: It's bonkers how much lava comes up around want. Maybe it's just for women, but I don't think so. 

Lorien: So I do an exercise. And I do this for myself, for characters, I do it for writers. Meg, you've done it, when I did it once, you had an interesting experience doing it.

Meg: Oh my god, I must have, I wiped it out of my brain, I have no memory. 

Lorien: Yes. So these are questions that I ask in a writing exercise. And they are: What do you want? Why do you want it? What is your plan to get it? Who's going to help you get it? What is in your way? When do you need to get it? What happens if you don't get it? What happens if you do get it? And once again, what is your plan to get it? And what is the first step of your plan? 

And that first step of your plan is such an important thing because sometimes the plan can be too vague. And so, and sometimes the want can be too vague. So if it's, I'm going to win an Oscar or I'm going to have a talk show on TV. That's a fun want, right? 

But what is my plan to get there? And what is the first thing I need to do that I can do today? Some little tiny step that I can take into act two and to activate it crossing that threshold. 

Meg: Those are great questions and we'll put them on the Facebook page group so that if you missed it and you're or you're driving and we don't want you to start writing.

Lorien: But the idea is ask yourself those questions. and tell the truth and get out of your intellectual brain and get into the scary feeling. What if I admitted that I wanted this thing? 

Meg: Why do you want it in your body. Not in your head. 

Lorien: Yeah. And the, why do I want it? Tell the truth. Some of this stuff comes out of jealousy or proving yourself or, you know, like some of the stuff is not always altruistic and wonderful, you know, so it's okay to be honest with yourself. And then you ask your characters these same questions. 

Meg: Yeah. And then, yeah, then go to the character and ask. I love those questions.

Okay. Let's do the 10 things you can do if you've got a passive main character in your script. So the first thing is have fun and play. Really, you've got, with that wanton drive, maybe you have your character in one scene as a writing exercise, do the opposite. If you've been getting feedback that this scene right here, she's very reactive, she's very passive, have her do the opposite as a writing exercise. What happens? 

Just to, for your brain to experience that activation, agency, want, drive, don't kill her, they bring her to life. And there's no way for us to assure you of that until you do it. You can't just hear us and believe it. You have to do it and watch what happens. 

The other thing I sometimes do is I change the main character. Because if I'm like, well that person has all the agency. If I'm really honest, the person standing next to her is creating the plot. So what if they were the main character? A writing exercise. Just try it.

Lorien: So I'm going to jump in here and talk about villains for just a second. Okay. So, I've been making this joke lately that I'm in my villain era.

I'm not in my main character era. Right? I'm not interested in growth or learning. Like, I'm very clear about what I want and I'm going to go for it. Right? That my story doesn't have anything to do with theme or, you know, anything. So for me, I'm in my villain era. I have agency. I'm getting what I want. When sometimes, we need to think about our main characters with that same villain energy.

Because I think we get stuck in the, well, they have to learn something, and I think we bog them down at the beginning with that. 

Meg: Yeah, we can even bog them down with their wound and all this stuff. It's not that you don't, those aren't all great tools. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Meg: But you let the villain have so much fun!

Lorien: So much fun! Right? They are so clear on their want and why and their plan. And they, villains will often drive the plot. And so what if it was, what if your main character was the villain in someone else's story? What would they do to get what they want? Just as a, like an exercise. 

Meg: I love that. It's a great exercise. I love it. 

Lorien: But also I'm in my villain era, just so everybody knows.

Meg: No, but it's true that, I mean, look at, kids dress up as Darth Vader, not Luke Skywalker. Right. Cause he's driving the plot. Luke is reacting to it. He's very active in how he's doing it. But the truth is Vader's driving it. Right. 

Jeff: And I feel like we like a character with a little bit of mischief too. Like when we think about the highlights of the Marvel movies, it's Iron Man. And like he is in some ways the most like a villain. He's stubborn. He's fiercely independent. He only, he's kind of acting in his own self interest. So just something to think about. I think we like characters like that. 

Meg: Yes. And those characters, actors like them too, right? Because they've got all of that prism and where that activation is coming from isn't always so nice. 

Lorien: And when I say villain, I'm not talking about nefarious purposes, right? Like murdered somebody or I'm a mafia leader. I'm talking about someone who is so maybe obsessed with their plan to get what they want that it's that powerful.

And we respond to villains like, I think, you know, the antihero in Black Panther. I mean, Killmonger for me is, you know, one of the best characters because he's so clear on what he wants and what he's willing to do to get it. 

Meg: And he has, he could tell you why he's right. And he's not wrong, and yet he is. You know, like it's so good. 

I would look at the main relationship of your movie. How is it involved in that want? Is it a contrast to the want that you want something different? Their want, is it supporting it? It's just another place to go and do some writing exercises, you know, around that relationship.

I would look how the goal is changing. Is it changing? I think a lot of people write reactive passive main characters till the midpoint. So my question to you is, when does your main character activate? When, and I'm telling you 50 is way too late. You got to activate on like 10 in some way. Again, no rules, but that's just as a writing exercise, you've probably written out a backstory, right?

So sometimes this is just, when does the character, when does the movie start? Right. When does the goal start? Right. When does anybody want anything? There's a movie out this, nobody wants anything. There's a TV show out right now. Nobody wants anything. And it's like mud that we're slogging through because you're like, what is the story?

So sometimes looking at the goal and when that activates that you're going to find that your character is activating, you're just keeping them kind of under wraps for too long. 

Lorien: So let's, a moment about exposition and backstory. Your character is formed from those things and will show itself in their behavior and their belief system.

So I don't need, I don't need to know all that stuff. Like, explicitly written out for me. I need to, you need to show me who that character is today. I'm not as interested in who they were last year, unless I think you got, you understand my point, right? It's like, how are they–

Meg: Yes. The question is because of that backstory, they are this person who's going to make this choice and this want right now. Right. But do I need to know all of that? Not all the time. I really don't. I just need to know this is who they are and this is why they're making these choices. 

You should know. Because the actor will ask you and who knows it might come up at some point in a subplot, right? But just get them going, get them wanting something, give them a problem that they have to solve and therefore they have a want as, you know, even as a writing exercise, just as fast as you can.

The other thing to look at is I would really, if somebody said to me, which they have, there's, she doesn't have enough agency. Well, the first thing I did was I just, we just diagnosed every scene. And asked, who's creating the action in this scene? It's just kind of a nice, kind of frontal lobe, not too emotional thing to do, if that's what you need to do.

Make a chart. Write out what's happening in the scene. Write her character. Is she creating it? Who's creating it? If it's not her. Is it always the antagonist? Is it always the guy next to her? Right? And then you can start to see why. And then you can, as a writing exercise, take one of them and reverse it. Right? 

Lorien: Another way to look at that too is You have a scene. Does it get you to the next scene, right? What's happening in scene 22, the only way you can get to scene 23 is what's, your main character doing something in the scene before it. 

Meg: Yeah, it's not a new situation arriving. It's she did something and therefore the next scene arrives.

Jeff: So I've started doing this thing where I, when I'm finished with the draft, I'll literally go through every scene and I call this the choice test. And you have to ask yourself three questions in each scene and you have to answer them. 

What possible choices that your protagonist have, and there needs to be at least two, what choice did they make? And what is the consequence of that choice? 

So I'm just echoing what both of you said, but writing it out. Sometimes you'll realize if your protagonist didn't really have a choice in that scene, they're being, they're reacting to something. They're not creating the story. So asking–

Meg: And let’s say you want that to be reactionary, but then I want to know what's the how, because that actor doesn't want to just react.

They want to do something that the how is surprising, right? Like we would have run left. But you know, my God, he went in the roof, right? So he reacted to it, but it's still character. There's still agency in their choice of how. 

Jeff: That's great. 

Meg: And I love those questions, Jeff. Those are great.  Another, I love dictionaries, by the way. They can really help your brain. So let's look at the sesaur– let's look at the sesaurus– oh my God, it's COVID. 

Lorien: The-saurus, the book that tells you other ways to say the thing. 

Meg: Yes. Let's look at that for the word agency. It's great words. It's to think about for your scenes or whatever.

Lorien: Ready? Here we go. Activity. Effect. Influence. Force. Power. Work. Means. Instrument. Route. Mode. Technique. Expedient. Intervention. Involvement. Arbitration. Interposing. Instrumentality. 

Meg: Yeah, is your character instrumental in this story right now? You've got it, you know, feet to the fire. And the other, I love this list, we'll put it on the Facebook page.

Lorien: What are the opposites of eight words for agency? That always helps me much more. Like, what is the opposite of a character without agency? And this is like the thesaurus.

Jeff: Oh, you know what? This is great. Do you care if I look this up real quick? 

Meg: No, do it. What are the opposite? 

Jeff: Idleness. Impotence. Inactivity. Weakness. Inaction. Inertness. Stagnation. Idling. Loafing. Passivity. I could go on forever, but. No one wants to watch a movie about–

Meg: Again. Nobody wants to watch that for the whole movie. It's really fun to have a loafing character be forced into choice and action. That dynamic is fun, right? So we're not saying you can't have somebody to start this way or their defense mechanism in life is to be idle.

But that story is, guess what? You don't get to be anymore. Or if you're like Juliette Binoche in Blue, it's the, how they're trying to stay idle. It's the, how they're trying to numb. And that the universe, the story will not let them, right? That's all juicy stuff. 

So if you love passive main characters, then do it, right? And really dig into what that means and why are they that way, right? 

Lorien: In a feature, acharacter can be idle until what page, Meg? 

Meg: 10, 8.

Lorien: If their coping mechanism is not doing anything, by page 10, they got to make a decision, right? There's something. 

Meg: I mean, if you are a really good writer and you are really entertaining me and I love this person, you can get to the end of act one if you want. I really, I mean, there's no rules, but if this is something that you struggle with, then just give yourself 10, just to push it and to really push yourself. 

The other list I really love that helps me is active words for actors. Look at the word actor. They act.

Lorien: I was just going to say that. They're act.

Meg: They are doing something, right. So this is a great list. It's very long. I'm not going to read the whole thing. It's literally pages and pages long, but it's like a firm bluff. Consign. Force. Frame. Goad. Suggest. Please, that's what, of course my brain goes there. Hassle. Help. Muffle. Nag. Unburden. Rally. Panic. Lampoon. Warn. Worship. Wrangle. 

I mean it just goes on and on, but they're all wonderful words to go, if you made that chart and you're trying to make your character active, what word would you put? What is happening in this scene? What would you tell the actor or actress? 

You are trying to wrangle these people. You are trying to wrangle them to get them to that point, right? Or whatever word, what is the word? Are they, you know, prosecuting? Are they, you know, rebuking? Are they, there's so many great words. And we'll put this list on the website. 

Lorien: So Mike Nichols said there are only three types of scenes. Fight, seduction, and negotiations. And all of that has a clear want, like I'm going to seduce you because of Y, or how am I going to seduce this situation, I'm going to negotiate.

All three of those types of scenes require a want and a why, and for you to take action. 

Meg: Love it. And of course he's a genius. Number 8 would be, you know, maybe you need to combine some characters. If you've got one character who's doing all the action. Maybe it's not your main character, but it's a piece of your main character that you've put outside of them. That's very normal, by the way, in early drafts, because your brain's just trying to figure it out. 

And then the ninth is, you know, you might need to work on your own ability to want. You might need to go talk to somebody about it. You know, just to start, or using the writing to help you get very honest about it.

I know that's been very powerful and really dramatically change people's writings when they've just said, okay, I actually have a hard time doing this. So I'm going to work on it and then it unlocks something in your writing. 

Or do it the opposite way. Really find a character who scares the shit out of you because they want something so badly and will do the risk they will take to get it seems dangerous to you and and just go have fun and write them and do the, you know, that'll change your brain.

Nothing happens, nothing blew up, nothing. You weren't burned at the stake. It's just words on a paper, right? And we love her. So that's all stuff that you can do. 

Lorien: So Meg, you shared your experience growing up and how some of those belief systems, so I grew up in a situation where anger was the dominant thing and I was encouraged to be angry and so I always considered myself very active, right, because I will do things. But it's, you know, I will do things. I write very active, right? Stab somebody, bury somebody, like, do this, crash a car. 

What I'm not doing for my characters is giving, it's, there's a coping mechanism, responding in anger. It's reacting in anger rather than a deeper connection with self and maybe being emotionally dysregulated is not a great way.

So just because somebody kick somebody or run somebody over or seem, mine are all very violent. You can tell it's rage. 

Meg: They are.

Lorien: That doesn't mean that my characters are active because they are reacting to situations in an emotionally dysregulated way, right? I have a feature I wrote on by page two. I think she stabs a kid in the neck with a pencil. He deserves it. 

But what I haven't done is be clear about the why for her, right? That, I haven't done enough backstory on her, right? Cause for me, it's like, oh, she's active. She stabbed somebody because it feels good for me to write that. That feels like the safe place for me to write. And so I have to go deeper in the other direction.

So just because, my point is, you know, I always thought, Oh, I'm an active writer. No, she's reactive. 

Meg: I love that. That's really insightful. And our very last number 10 thing to do is do one of Lorien’s exercises. So Lorien right now is going to do an exercise on want for you guys. 

Lorien: All right. So this is my, The Tomato at Trader Joe's exercise. A lot of my exercises take place at Trader Joe's. I haven't figured out why, but they do. 

So, in this scene, you have a character, this is what scene you're gonna write. This is the setup. You have a character who needs to get a tomato from Trader Joe's. And this is the last piece of the puzzle that this character needs to get in order to achieve their want.

And it, the tomato thing, it's silly on purpose so that you can feel like you're playing. So, the tomato could hold the genetic code to save the human race from a face sucking alien, or it could hold the microchip in order to prove your innocence. It could be the thing that the kidnappers asked for ransom to get your family back.

But it is this one tomato at Trader Joe's. It's very high stakes, and when your character gets there, that's the tomato that's there, and just as you go to get it, someone else picks up the tomato and puts it in their basket. So your character needs to get that tomato. What are they willing to do to get that tomato?

They have to strategize, they have to come up with a plan, and it has high stakes. So that's, write that scene. Right? How are they going to get that tomato in order to accomplish their goal? And it's silly on purpose, like I said. So it takes place in Trader Joe's. Don't have them leave the store. It's all in Trader Joe's.

You can set it at the time that you want. It can be crowded or not. You can use whatever you want at Trader Joe's. But what would your character, who is at the very end of their plan, and they only need this tomato, what are they willing to do to get that tomato back? That's my very simple, quick, little The Tomato at Trader Joe's exercise.

Meg: I love it. 

Jeff: That rocks. And you know what, Lauren? You're self deprecating, that's silly. But in the hands of a great writer. 

Lorien: No, the tomato is a silly thing. 

Jeff: What I was going to say, though, is like in the hands of a great writer, that's a great fucking like movie. Like a great writer can create a tense 90 minute thriller about needing to get this. You know, I think it's. 

Meg: Jodie used to love the more mundane, the better. Like she said, I don't want to see someone standing over a contract. I want to see some people at a diner and on a piece of paper they're writing down. What they're agreeing to, like the more mundane because it's everyday life. It's, so I love it.

Lorien: I think maybe that's why I do Trader Joe's, because so many pivotal points in my life have happened at grocery stores for whatever reason. 

Meg: Well, think about it. A grocery store is all about want. Do you want this chip or this chip? Do you want this? I remember once I was so overwhelmed that I was in my 20s. I stood in a grocery store in New York City crying because I couldn't decide what chips I wanted because I was just overwhelmed making choices. 

Lorien: And it all comes back to chips.

Jeff: It all comes back to chips. 

Meg: It does, always. 

Jeff: Sorry, just one more thing I love about that exercise, Lorien, is we're talking about the mundanity of a grocery store and whatever, the mundanity of a tomato, but to make that interesting, you have to push your character more.

The more interesting the how is, the more you're challenged. You know, again, like what Meg was saying, if it has to do with nuclear codes, your character doesn't need to be that, quote, special for a high stakes feeling. But if it is something that feels small with this incredibly dynamic, shifty character, you're pushed to think of that character instead of the situation.

I feel like I'm not articulating this well, but I think it's a great exercise. I love it. 

Lorien: You can add things like rules, right? The tomato can't be smushed in any way. Or it has to be smushed to get the thing out, right? So you, and you, that's the kind of discovery you make when doing this exercise.

Meg: Thanks so much for tuning in to The Screenwriting Life. For more support, go to the TSL Facebook group. And for interactive live story workshops with Lorien and me, head to the TSL Workshops. 

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.