222 | The Perfect Couple Showrunner on How To Craft a Murder Mystery (ft. Jenna Lamia)

Jenna Lamia's first producer/creator/showrunner credit wasn't just a success — it was a smash hit, becoming one of Netflix's top five most streamed TV seasons EVER. The show, which stars Nicole Kidman, is a sleek and funny murder mystery set around a bougie Nantucket wedding, and today, Jenna talks all about how she adapted Elin Hilderbrand's best-selling novel into one of the year's most successful shows.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I’m Lorien McKenna. And if you're not one of the 30 million people who watched Netflix's The Perfect Couple over the last two months, then you've certainly seen it in your Top 10. Our guest Jenna Lamia developed, showran, and co-wrote all six episodes of the series, which is now a global sensation. And it’s one of only five shows in the history of Netflix to surpass one billion minutes of watch time.

Meg: Jenna has a long career as both a writer and an actor, having starred on shows like Oz, Resident Alien, and Awkward, where she also served as a writer. Jenna was a co-executive producer on NBC's Good Girls and has worked in features as well, including selling her spec, My Best Friend's Exorcism, which is now available to watch on Amazon Prime.

Which I did not know about, and now that we've done this introduction, I'm 100% gonna watch. I just love the title alone. Okay, so welcome to the show! 

Jenna: Thank you! I love that title too, and I just wanna say it's, it wasn't a spec, that's an adaptation to be, I want to give credit where credit’s due to Grady Hendrix, who wrote the book called My Best Friend's Exorcism.

So that was, I think, the first thing I ever adapted. Loved that book, and it kind of, that process taught me to adapt, which was useful in The Perfect Couple. 

Meg: Well then, I'm glad I made that error so that we can talk all about that, because now I want to dig into your brain about adaptations even more. But before we do, we're going to do the first part of our show, which is called Adventures in Screenwriting, where we talk about our week.

We'll let Lorien go first. Lorien, how was your week? 

Lorien: My week has been really good in that I got angry. I have been existing in this place of sort of overwhelm and, you know, I have an assistant who helps me manage all my projects and to dos and it's great. But every time I open up my to do folder, I'm like super overwhelmed and I shut it really fast.

And I have lots of projects that I'm interested in and feeling very like, I don't have time to do any of them. What should I focus on? Which is this very victim-y, for me, sad energy. And then I end up like wasting time. I've talked about this a lot on the show. But earlier this week, I was like, fuck this.

I need to be angry. Cause I do really good writing when I'm angry because it feels powerful. And I know it's not necessarily like mental healthy because, you know, anger is a mask for sadness and you're supposed to feel your feelings and process them. But for me, for whatever reason, right now, anger is what is making me get things done.

So this morning, I sent three emails with three pitches that I'm working on. After we finish this, I have two more things. I have a pitch I need to send off to a producer and then a short pitch I'm sending to my manager, because it's just like, I'm tired of sitting around being victim-y. And all my projects are very intensely complex female characters, which I love.

Not all of them set things on fire. I just want to be very clear about that, although a couple of them do, because I write stabby women who set fires. But so for me, and I don't know if anger is the right word or it's more just like fire. I have a fire under me that feels far better than being sad. 

Meg: And fire is better than anger, I think. You're fired up. 

Lorien: I'm fired up.

Jenna: I just realized the mug I'm drinking out of says, I'd rather be putting out fires, which is a writer's room joke. 

Lorien: Yes. So we can work together because I'd rather be setting fires. 

Meg: So Jenna, how was your week? 

Jenna: My week was pretty good. Speaking of fires, I'm feeling pretty inspired. I think maybe rather than going to anger like Lorien I guess busyness is my salve. So being, getting up in the morning and having a lot I want to accomplish is my sort of happy place. 

And I often think about how many good years do I have left? How many years do I have left to write? I know that might sound a little insane, but there's so much that I want to write that in times when I could be feeling existential despair, I cope by thinking, how am I going to get written everything I really want to write? And so I've actually been pretty productive this week. I'm writing a book, and I'm also writing a pilot. 

And at the same time have been spending a lot of time with my mom who is losing her vision. So we live in rural Maine. And it, being in Maine among communities that are mostly working with natural resources. Like, I'm, what am I saying? I live in a lobstering community and being with my mom out on the water two days ago was such a great reminder to me of what's important in life and what I want to hold dear as I get older. 

Now, I know I'm sounding like I'm 85. I'm not 85 yet, but as a writer, I, you know, we only have a certain amount of time and I only have a certain amount of creative juice. So I really want to make sure that I put that time and energy into projects that are worth putting out into the world. And spending time with my mom, who's getting older, it sort of reminded me that I'm doing the right thing. 

Because the pilot I'm writing is about a group of older women who learn a new skill, make new friendships, and kind of conquer this world, Wall Street, that they weren't invited to. And so I'm loving writing it, and it's feeling like a great use of time right now, both because of the way the world is going and because of the personal time I'm spending with my mom, who is facing sort of diminishing capacity and wondering, you know, if how much time she has left to be effective in the world facing that, you know, losing her vision.

So that was a very roundabout way of saying my week was really kind of existential, but productive. 

Meg: I love it. And I love that you're taking it to your writing and that they're speaking to each other, both the real life and the fiction are kind of feeding each other. I love that. In terms of what you say too, in terms of the limited time, when I was a young writer and I was just trying to get my first job, I was up and it was came down to two writers and then we had to go in and pitch to the head of the production company, this giant production company, and I didn't get it.

And I was really mad because the assistant of the giant producer had wanted his friend to get it, so he gave the wrong sample of mine in, in terms of tonally, it didn't go at all with what the show was. And I was so mad, and it felt like such an injustice. 

And I sat down with my friend who's in the business and she had been in the business at that time for 30, 40 years. She'd been through it all. And she said, you know, as a creative, especially a writer, you're only going to have so many projects that you're going to have time to do. And that's just a fact. So was this one of them? Was this one of the projects that you would have wanted to give your creative life energy to?

And I was like, no, it was a job. And she was like, well, then congratulations. Because you don't have to do it. So there was the hurt, of course, of not making money. Don't get me wrong, that's real. But it just really helped, right? Because we do have limited creative energy in this world. And we should be doing things that bring us that, what you're talking about, that sustenance. I just love that so much.

 What I'm doing this week is I'm writing with my husband and we're going to take a pitch out. And I'm at that wonderful stage where the pitch was great I was totally happy with it. And then we got notes from the manager. 

And they were good. They were literally like, you need a little more of this, and you got to slow down here and give me that whole scene. This is like the pivotal moment, like, give it to me. And when you're getting the notes, you're like sure, that's a good note. I got it. And then you sit down to do it. And the whole thing just goes plop. Like, it literally, the whole pitch fell apart in terms of my brain.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm now at that too much and not enough stage. You know, like, I'm putting things in. Now the thing’s gonna be fat. And you're like, well, how do I say all of this in like three words? And suddenly I'm having to be a poet and I'm not a poet. You know what I mean? Like, what's the perfect adjective in this pitch to–

So it's not my favorite place, but it's part of the process. It's part of the process. I'm learning the story. As a team, we're learning the story more deeply. I literally, right before I got on here, gave it to my writing partner. And I was like, here's a version. I hope he can make it better.

But so that's where I am. Too much, not enough. It's always part of the process. I don't know, maybe just me, but I always hit this place where I have too much of everything and not enough of the clear center story that you can say like that, right? Is it only me? 

Lorien: I really like what you said about what is worth putting out in the world.

And I think that's a good question for me in this like, fired up, hyper, on fire, inspired place. And for Meg too, in terms of your pitch as well, like, what is the story that you want to put out in the world? And like, boiling it down to that, right? It's not really so much about the words that you're going to, the perfect words.

Meg: I know, but I still gotta take the notes. 

Lorien: No, I, yes. Obviously. Right? But I mean, just in terms of like, the bigger question and you know. 

Meg: I said, why do you love it? That's where I always have to come back to.

Lorien: Yeah.

Meg: Alright, let's get on to talking about Jenna's amazing career. I'd love to jump right into adaptation because we just talked about it, but first I'm going to ask a question that we get a lot from our emerging writers, which is, you know, breaking into the business and it's specifically interesting for you because you transitioned from acting to writing.

So we're really interested in how that happened or why or what was that about? 

Jenna: I did. And they were closely related, meaning I transitioned to writing because of a lucky break at an audition, basically. I was writing all through college, I wrote plays, and I thought I would be a writer, but acting sort of took off first.

So I had always been inclined to write. So it wasn't, it was something that had always kind of been part of what I wanted to do. And I was at, nd so I had been writing on my own, and every pilot season, which used to be a thing, I would, you know, be out in California and be auditioning for pilots, but it was such an education as a writer because you're reading scripts and scripts and seeing what you gravitate to as an actor. What kind of dialogue makes you excited to go try to get this role? 

So I was always writing my own stuff just for myself. I didn't even really know what I was going to do with it. I knew nothing about getting your foot in the door. Really nothing. I knew no writers. I was like in this apartment by myself off La Brea, like next to this car dealership with one of those like air guys, you know, those huge–

Lorien: I can see it. I can see the scene.

Jenna: So his blue arms were always waving in the window. And I was, I wrote this feature screenplay and had my actor friends come over and do a stage reading, a table read, and took notes, and I wasn't really sure what I was going to do with it, but it was just so fun for me to write. It was basically All About Eve set in a high school theater department. 

Lorien: Yes please. 

Jenna: Loved. So fun to write. And meanwhile, I was auditioning for things, and I had auditioned for a movie, and was, kept getting called back and called back, and got the role. And it would have been a big deal to have gotten that role. And then the director decided not to make the movie, just a few weeks before production started.

So I was devastated. It was going to be kind of like a level up in my career, but luckily the director was kind about it and said, you know, I feel bad cause I, you know, I put you through like six callbacks and I'm sorry, I'm not making the movie, but if there's anything I can ever do. And for whatever reason, divine providence that day, I had the balls to say, well, you could read my screenplay.

And he did. And he said, this is funny. Wow, this is like a real screenplay. And he gave it to his agent, and that's how I got a representative. So it's not a typical story, really. But the thing about it that I think emerging writers can take away is that I had a script ready when someone opened the door.

And I'd been getting it ready for years. Years, I'm saying. I mean, I had readings and readings and was rewriting it all the time. And I had really, I mean, I had done a lot of drafts. It wasn't rough at that point. So I was prepared for when opportunity knocked. 

Meg: I love that so much.

Lorien: So you got an agent, or you got a rep, and then–

Jenna: An agent, yep. 

Lorien: An agent, and then they said, what else do you have? Or how did that get you from there to adapting My Best Friend's Exorcism? 

Jenna: Well, it was, a couple years went by. Yeah, they said, what do you want to do? You know, do you want to do TV? Or, cause it was a screenplay. We did end up selling that screenplay and a few more like screenwriting gigs followed. And eventually, I realized that was a bit of a lonely existence. 

I completely stopped acting. I was like, Oh my god. I have a chance to be a writer. I don't have time to go be a guest star on whatever it is.

So for several years I was writing screenplays, both specs, but also bake offs. And I don't think I ever adapted anything at that stage. I really didn't know what I was doing in retrospect. I had, I mean, I remember going to meetings and then being like, what's the what's the set piece? And I was like, I don't know what that is, but I'm just going to act like sure, sure.

I mean, I really kind of hit the ground running before I really knew the ropes. And then after a couple years, I thought, well, this is really lonely. I am in my apartment writing all the time. I never interact with anyone. I'm, I was looking forward to notes calls. That's how bad it was. I was like, yay, I get to speak to somebody today. 

Lorien: Wow, that's a pretty bold place to be. I'm looking forward to notes calls. 

Jenna: Yeah. I didn't know that many people in Los Angeles. I was living in this apartment. So through one of the producers I was working with on a screenplay, I had a meeting on a TV show. She said, oh, my friend is looking for writers. You might like her. And that's how that happened. 

It's usually through someone, you know, not through representatives, I mean, in my experience. Not that they're not great for some things, but for those kinds of things, it's so often going to be about somebody that you met. So I fell into TV because I wanted more human interaction really.

So I started writing on 90210 for the CW. And boy was that big change. I had no idea there were writers living these lives. Like not, it was a nine to six or so day. And I mean, those were the days it was 24 episodes and it was really hard work. And it was like, Such an education in plot breaking. I really needed that education. I still need that education. So I learned so, so much. 

Meg: And I'm sure so fast. So we're jumping a little bit way, to current day. Because we really want to talk about The Perfect Couple. So how did you get interested in that project? You know, were you approached by Netflix or did you bring it to them or no?

Jenna: So I was approached by Gail Berman who had the rights to the book. So I had met Gail in a general meeting at some point years prior. And she emailed me during the agent action. So we had no representatives at the time. And so she just emailed me directly and said, I have this book and I have a feeling you might be the writer.

I don't know if it's because I'm from New England, or I don't know why she thought of me, but she couldn't have been more correct. I said, oh, you don't need to send me that book. I read that book when it came out. I mean, it's a beach read. I read Ellen Hildebrand. Like, I'm a total fan. Earnestly addictive, addicted to her books. 

So I said, oh, Gail, I'm the writer. Yes. Yes. What do I have to do to get this job? And, but that was five years ago, if you can believe it. So it wasn't at Netflix yet. It was Gail had the rights to the book. I met with her. She, at the time was, she had a first look deal at, or maybe it was a full deal at Fox.

So her production company was at Fox at the time. So I wrote it as a network pilot. That's what, that was its first life. And I had a good experience with that. They ultimately decided not to make it, but they were very kind and generous about giving it back to us and saying, you know, we do think this deserves a home, you're welcome to go try to find a home for it.

Then so we had this script and this book and this bestselling author who's a wonderful, savvy, great partner. And nobody, I mean, nobody wanted it. It was about privileged people living on a very exclusive island. During the pandemic, we're going around like, hey guys, who wants to make a show about rich white people?

So it was tough to find a home for it for a while. And then it so happened that I had a general meeting over zoom. With Becca Edelman and Moera Ainai at 21 Laps, at Shawn Levy's company. And they just wanted to meet because they had read something else and they were looking for writers for a certain show and I hadn't been able to do that show.

And at the end of the Zoom they said, is there anything that you have that's just like sitting on the shelf that you really feel deserves a life? And I said, yeah, actually, I'll send it. And within 24 hours, they were like, this is exactly what Netflix is looking for. We just re-upped our deal at Netflix. I said, I pitched it to Netflix. They didn't want it. I mean, we had gone around everywhere. And they said, well, we think they're going to want it. Trust us. 

And so Sean and Gail agreed to partner and bring it back to Netflix to a different group within Netflix, which had, I think within the six months prior had gone through, you know, a transformation. And luckily, yeah, they did want it. 

And I obviously rewrote it when it became a Netflix show. It wasn't going to be, you know, five acts and a teaser, and a very rootable heroine. You don't need to have, like, the heroine be just earnest and rootable at all turns, and not to, you know, not to degrade network notes. But there's just certain things you can do for a network show and that you don't necessarily need for a Netflix show. 

Lorien: Yeah. Yeah, that was going to be my question. How did the pilot change in your reconception? And I think by then in your career, you kind of understood those things a bit more. But how did you go about deciding what was going to go on the pilot and breaking the season? 

Meg: Yeah, especially with a mystery. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Jenna: As far as taking what, you know, what to keep from the book and yeah, it was really hard. I think that mystery is the hardest thing I've done. Because you're doing all that character development and hopefully infusing things with humor and authenticity.

But behind it all, you have to have an airtight skeleton that teases at several junctures and then pays off all those teases. And then ultimately has an answer that you couldn't have guessed, but that you don't feel shortchanged by when you find it out. It's, I find it incredibly difficult, but it's the best story engine there is. Who did it? I mean, you always want to know. 

So, I knew that I wanted the mystery of the pilot to be who's dead and the mystery of the show to be who killed them. So I knew that right away because I've, I was actually, it's funny. People think, oh it's, you clearly were inspired by Big Little Lies and White Lotus, maybe because of some of the same cast and maybe because of some of the same texture, but I hadn't seen those shows when I started writing this because it was so long ago. 

So the truth is I was inspired by Broadchurch, which I think is the best mystery there is and also a little bit by Damages because Damages did three time periods really well both the present the immediate past and the distant past, which the book necessitated. So that is actually what I was studying, as far as how to cover three different time periods in a pilot with a very strong driving who's dead. So I knew that I needed to start with a teaser that tells you some, someone said, there's a murder here. You're, you always want to tell the audience what they're in for.

This is a murder show. So, I knew that. And then, yeah, the pilot was really hard. I knew I needed to plant like 70 red herrings. I mean, just a lot of what ifs, probably show at least one weapon, which actually didn't end up in the shot pilot, but there was a gun in the script. Cause you know, you gotta have the Chekhov's gun.

Meg: When did you decide on the, was the interrogations in the book, or is that something you brought in as one of your tools? 

Jenna: The way the interrogations are scripted is absolutely inspired by Big Little Lies, having just said it, I wasn't inspired by it. That came in later. And I read his scripts for that and saw how much you could do with how little screen time and realized they'd be a great way to introduce the tone and the kind of humor I wanted to achieve, which was pretty tough.

So those came in much later. I mean, the book does have investigatory scenes, but not talking heads like this. 

Meg: Yeah.

Jenna: They're just an incredible tool, right.

Lorien: I thought the pilot was so well structured in terms of time, introducing like, okay, this is a show we're going to have who the characters are, the different time periods, how we're going to bounce around. It sort of really drew me in terms of like, okay, I get this. And it settled me in terms of, okay, I don't quite know what to expect, but I'm with it. Rather than sometimes when you're in a show and halfway through, it flips over and you're like, I don't know what's going on. 

So I thought it was really beautifully done and really beautifully directed. I was talking with the team before you came on, like the lighting I loved. The costumes I loved. The feeling and the visual tone of it was just really yummy. And like, there was this sort of like, there were hints about character in terms of like how they were lit, how they were shot. And so I really admired that. And I know you were the showrunner and you probably worked really closely with your director on that, so. 

Meg: Ss a showrunner working with Susanne Bier, like what was that like? She was also an EP too, right? 

Jenna: Yeah, oh, she was heavily involved creatively from, she signed on in December and we started shooting in April. And from the moment she signed on she was completely, you know, full body committed and we had a ton of creative conversations both at script stage and then throughout pre-production and obviously during production.

So, her stamp is all over all of those visuals. She is, what I always say about her is she's a divining rod for the truth. And I think that's why actors trust her so implicitly, like she will not let you bullshit your way through a scene. And she will not let me bullshit my way through a scene either as the writer.

So I value that so much. I told her, I love getting notes from you because she is so blunt, but I like that. I really don't want to waste time pussyfooting around like the note behind the note. Just tell me what, tell me, this wasn't funny to me. Got it. 

So she's not prescriptive, but she is economical in her feedback and pretty darn accurate as far as pointing out when I may have fudged my way through something or when something doesn't actually totally add up. It seems cool and interesting and fancy, but if you really kind of, you know, shine a bright light on it, it doesn't add up. And you need someone to tell you that. 

So, yeah, it was a really, I actually learned a ton from working with her in that way where I think I'm going to be less inclined to believe my own bullshit as I write because I hear her voice, seriously, which I think is a really good thing. And I forget if I've answered the whole question. 

Meg: You have totally answered it. I have another question, which is, so you love the mystery, you love the book. But there, is there also an emotional thing that, you know, a mystery can unravel something deeper than just the plot, in terms of, you know, this show feels like it's about marriage, as much as class and wealth, you know. 

What was your entry point emotionally for what you were going to use this mystery to uncover? What, you know, what was, I don't know, personal to you? What kind of floated your boat about it emotionally?

Jenna: I think that's a good question and it shifted. So my way in, what I related to at first was more about being a young person trying to figure out who you are and what that means as far as who you should choose as a life partner. So in the book, the character was, the bride was named Celeste in the book, but who became Amelia.

She's torn between Shooter and Benji. And Benji is this great guy who's really nice to her and marrying him represents a lot of security. And she wants to give her mom the gift of knowing she, you know, got, she got to see her walk down the aisle, but knowing she's going to be taken care of and have a pretty darn good life as a winemarie.

So she's torn because she doesn't feel passionately in love with Benji, but he's really nice. She likes him a whole lot.  But then she meets this guy Shooter who she's wildly attractive, attracted to, who would always keep her guessing and represents like a sexy, faster paced life. And that's in the book.

And I thought, well, that's really relatable to young women. And, you know, as somebody who lived in New York in my twenties and was dating different people and sort of trying to figure out what kind of life I wanted. Truly like as an actress, do I want this bohemian life where I have no security and yet I'm creatively fulfilled and inspired every day or should I just marry this banker dude who wants to move to New Jersey?

I mean, I'm sort of exaggerating, but there's truth to that in your twenties. You're like, who am I? And who should my partner be? And let me try to be really clear-eyed about that so I don't hurt anyone's feelings. So I thought that was a relatable journey for that character. 

But then in the writing of the show, even before we cast it, in the writing and the very, very heavy rewriting of the show, I became more interested in the Amelia-Celeste, sorry, the Amelia-Greer, Nicole was Celeste in Big Little Lies, that's why we changed the name.

But anyway, in the Amelia-Greer dynamic, looking at what was really making Nicole's character tick, and how she had lived a life with a lot of artifice, and a lot of emphasis on her perfect image, and how she resented Amelia for not really caring what people thought. And I just got really interested in that female relationship, how it hopefully feels like it goes from enemies to possible future allies.

I'm so interested in that, in the way women are pitted against one another by actually biology. But how it's so powerful to find female allies. And to find your common ground and realize like other women are not the enemy. So I was interested in trying to take that relationship from one pole to almost to the other or to feeling like maybe someday they could be friends.

Meg: That's great. 

Jeff: Nicole is your star. In my mind, when you're building a show around someone, obviously Nicole Kidman is one of the top names that we can get in the industry. Was there an element of needing to reshape the narrative to sort of, I guess, in a less elegant way to, there's a more elegant way to say this, but build the show around your A list kind of marquee star, and she's also an EP on the show.

Did that inform the way you re-approached, and I want to also underline this by saying Greer and Amelia's relationship was one of my favorite things about the show, but was that an element of the kind of repositioning emotionally what the show was about? 

Jenna: I totally understand the question and you would think so, but it had already happened before Nicole became involved and she probably wouldn't have been as interested in earlier drafts because the character of Greer was not as fleshed out by any means.

But the more I wrote it and rewrote it, I got really interested in Greer and Tag's marriage. And in sort of setting Greer off against Amelia. We were talking about that very much at the writer's room stage. I remember because the room ended in June of 2022 and we didn't even start shooting until April of 2023. So you can imagine how much writing happened after the room as well. 

So when I say we were talking about at the room stage, that means that was really early and fundamental, but we had a scene between Greer and Amelia where they were both up late at night eating Takis with wedding cake icing like smeared on them. 

And it was one of our favorite, didn't end up in the show, but it was one of our favorite scenes because it was like two women who have had all this reason to not trust one another and to feel like enemies bonding over junk food in this incredible like kitchen where you wouldn't expect to find Takis. And Greer had this like secret stash of junk, and it was this tiny indicator that she, there was more to her than met the eye, which you find out, of course. 

Meg: I love that. You have such an amazing cast in this show. It's really just stellar. I'm a huge Eve Houston fan and Dakota Fanning and, you know, all of them. They're all so amazing. How, I really love what you said that Nicole was drawn to this part because you had already focused on it.

So I really, I'm going to guess that the script that these actors are reading already, those parts are really juicy and fleshed out and layered. So in your writing process, when you have so many characters, how do you not fall into tropes, or, oh, well, we forgot about her, or, you know, all that layering that had to be do– done on so many characters?

Jenna: I'm sure I did fall into tropes. And I will say I was given the gift of a lot of time because we didn't start shooting for eight months. So I was with the director and the scripts for a long time as we began to attach cast. So I did have that great gift where I knew an actor was going to play a role for at least a few months.

And so I got to speak to Liev about his character and really infuse his scenes with a lot that hadn't been there before. And that was incredible. I mean, as an actor myself, I love to do that. I think, It's a gift to both the writer and the actor. And I like it to happen on set too. I'm not opposed to a lot of improvisation and however we can get authenticity into the roles, I think, it's always a good inclination. 

So I'm sure I did fall into some tropes. There were parts I didn't see fully until we cast them. One would be Tag, Liev's character. I just was like, I don't know, he's handsome. And he's kind of a, you know, a rogue. And didn't realize some of those layers until Liev and I started talking about it.

So I think having that gift of knowing who's going to play it is one way to not fall into tropes. And now it's another thing I've learned. I'm just gonna cast things in my head way, way ahead of time. And if that actor, you know, most likely won't end up doing the role, but you've thought about a specific human. And that just, that gets you so far.

Meg: And I love that because often we're telling emerging writers, you know, you're so hanging on to these early drafts, but the truth is it's going to be, just keep growing and developing. And you can't even know the story it's going to be eventually, especially in TV, where you are going to have all this input from other writers and the director and the actors. Well, that's features too, actually. 

So, you know, it's just so beautiful to hear, you know, your experience of that as a witness to this for the younger writers that you've got to let it go, got to let it grow. 

Lorien: And for the older writers who might be stuck in the middle of a rewrite. 

Meg: Or for ourselves, maybe.

Lorien: Because I like it the way it is, it's just fine, don't tell me what to do, right? Not that is my response, not at all, but, you know. 

Jenna: Never no. 

Lorien: No, never. 

Jenna: Mine either. No. 

Lorien: Of course not. Because we're all perfect. The end. We're the perfect writers. Let's make that show. 

So I have a question about showrunning. What is your favorite part about showrunning? 

Jenna: Oh my gosh. 

Lorien: A, I'm sorry, a favorite part of show running.

Jenna: What is a favorite part? I mean, this is so obvious, but getting to be the decider. I mean, I think for so many years we are on other people's staffs envisioning what we think that character should wear or what we think the prop should look like. And if you're lucky, you get some of that experience covering set for your episode. I hope we protect that opportunity as much as we can for people. 

But when it's your show, it's a whole nother layer of getting to execute the thing exactly the way you saw it. Now, you're never going to get it exact. And you often aren't going to get it even close. But every once in a while, there's a scene that looks, sounds, smells exactly how you envisioned it when you wrote it. And there's nothing more satisfying, gratifying, exhilarating than that. 

The scene around the dinner table, it's episode, I believe, three. Wow, it's been a while. That ends with so what's your favorite Doritos? Ranch? That scene, by the way, that was improv by Dendrie Taylor, who plays Karen. That scene was pretty much exactly what I hoped it would be. And I was just sitting there on set, like giggling with, that's a great feeling. 

And it wouldn't have been that way if I didn't get to be the decider on, you know, those props and the lighting and not that I suggested the lighting, but just that it was just, yeah, it was just.

Meg: Well now let's talk about the decision to bring writers. You said you had a room, and then you moved on from the room. But when you had a room, what was your, as a showrunner's, what, your criteria, or what kind of writers did you like or want in your room? 

Jenna: That's a great question. I really treasure people who talk. That sounds so simple, but I really mean it. I think if you've been hired and invited into a room, it's because somebody really wants to hear what you have to say. That being said, I love it when people wait until they really have something to say to talk. 

And I learned that from watching my friend Paul Sciarotta in the CW 90210 writers room. He didn't talk that often, and I thought, this guy, that's interesting, he's not talking that often. But when he talks, everyone listens. It's because he only talks when he has something really valuable to add to the conversation. 

And that also seems obvious, but it's surprising how many people don't seem to really understand that about room dynamics. So, that's what I really look for, and if there's a way to figure it out when you're sort of meeting them over Zoom, someone let me know. 

But also, a diversity of perspectives is so important because I'm not always going to know what the 40 year old man's take would be on this scene between these two girls. But I need to know because there are things that I'll put in a script that I don't realize are a little bit, you know, deaf, tone deaf, or not as nuanced as they could be. And I want to be told that. 

And it's not because of some false virtue signaling that we need, you know, diversity represented in our writer's rooms. It makes the scripts so much better. So, that's what I look for, is people who really are willing to share about your personal experiences, share about your hopes, dreams, fears. That's where I come from. I completely write from character. I find story and character and authenticity and truth. 

So be willing to share. I mean, in the Awkward writers room, the first day we went around. This was season, I think, I wasn't on it from the beginning so I don't want to misrepresent that it was the first day of the whole show. It was the first day of the season I was on. We went around the table and we all told our most embarrassing story that we had.

And one, what an incredible bonding experience. And two, it's critical that you're willing to do that if you want to be in a writer's room, because that's where we find the best story. 

Meg: So as a showrunner, what would you, what advice would you give to a new showrunner, or what did you learn and realize you needed to learn when you started showrunning?

Jenna: I'm still learning for sure. One thing I have observed is that being willing to delegate is really important because the job is so incredibly difficult that you need to find people you trust to go do something maybe you're not that you're not the best at or you truly don't have time for. Find someone who's really inclined to do that and let them go do it.

Oh, small but huge. Dedicate an email address just to the show. So every new show, I do my name and then, you know, the initials of the show or something at Gmail. So I have my regular Gmail and then I'll have the show email. So you can just switch to that account, see everything that's new, and methodically go through your inbox.

Because the sheer number of emails you will be receiving is staggering. So I was really glad I had done that and I will continue to always do that. Yeah. 

Lorien: That’s so smart.

Jenna: Delegating. Show dedicated email. 

Meg: Perfect. 

Jenna: Those are my things. Those are my tips. I know nothing.

Meg: I love it. How does, how did your experience as an actor inform your writing and your show running, really? 

Jenna: I think it informs my writing in a way that's almost, it's like you can't have one without the other, because the reason I like to write is that I like to put myself into the mind and body of another person. So I, like I said, I write from character, so I mean I even pitch from character, I don't even know that I'm doing it, but in the room I'll be like taking on an accent or like, oh she goes, I am. I mean I just can't help it, it's not even conscious.

So I think my, you know, interest in what makes other people tick is what makes me, you know, like to be an actor and it's what makes me interested in being a writer. So it informed this just in the way that, you know everything comes from putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. I know there are writers that don't feel that way, and I think it's just a different kind of writing, it just happens to be the way that I write, and why I find writing enjoyable.

Lorien: I love, this reinforces this idea of, it's our whole collective experience as a person that we bring to the page, or we bring as an actor, or directing, whatever it is. That it's not just literally, I'm a writer and here are the things I've written. It's, I was an actor and these are the things I love about being an actor and these are my superpowers as an actor and I can translate them into activating those same things in, as a writer.

So it's not like two different versions of you. It's the same. You're just using a different medium to tell a story. And I think even if you were a tax auditor or a playground monitor at a school, it's still the same. You're the same person doing those things. It's about integrating all those versions of yourself.

And that's the, then you go up in front of your director and she's like, well, that's bullshit. Or that's the truth. You know? So like. 

Jenna: Well, if it's the truth, I would push back. Yeah. I would just be like, no, Susanne, that actually is not bullshit. Not for an American. There were things like that we fought about for sure.

Lorien: Oh, really? Oh, that's– 

Jenna: Well, I'm just saying, you know, if you know something is authentic to you, you're never going to veer away from that North Star. So, that's a great starting place because, man, do you need a North Star when you're running a show. 

You know, someone's gonna tell you, well, this looks just good enough. I mean, we could shoot in North Carolina. I mean, no one would be able to tell. And you need to, if you've seen it clearly, you won't have any problem saying, we cannot do that. Everyone will be able to tell that it's not Nantucket. And I know what it is and this isn't it. You'll be able to just like slough away everything that's not the right thing.

Lorien: Yeah, I think that–

Jenna: If you authentically see it. 

Lorien: And that's about knowing what it is, rather than waiting for people to bring to you to decide. Like there is that, at the starting point is, it's this. And then the other decisions come in, they're prepared for you, presented to you. 

But I mean, it sounds like that's what you did. Like, it has to be Nantucket, and then you make those decisions based on, it's Nantucket. 

Jenna: Yeah, it's so interesting, because as I hear you say that, I think, well, that goes against something else that I learned in this process. Which is that, there are certain instances in which it's important to let other people bring you their vision, and that's true in the writer's room for sure.

Lorien: Yes. 

Jenna: Got to open it up to new ideas, like maybe this is what we're doing, but if someone has something better, let's hear it. You don't want people to be afraid to talk or veer off course a little bit. Cause sometimes you find the gems there. 

And then also when you're showrunning, you don't want to say, hey, wardrobe genius that has done a beautiful job on all these other shows. This guy should be in, you know, faded red pants and a blue button down. Because then you're not going to see the incredible purple pants and the paisley tie, because she has a different experience and you may just be surprised. So. I actually learned some, a little bit of that from Susanne too, which is don't maybe dictate exactly what something's going to be at a certain stage.

At early script stage, I think evoking the world is important to get people to feel like they're watching the show, they know what it would look like. But then later, closer to production, she said, don't give too many details to the department heads. And I was surprised by that. 

I thought, oh, you're controlling me. You're, you know, you just don't want me to have my hands all over this. And I, that wasn't where it was coming from, I finally realized. She wanted to let other creative people bring their inspiration, their unfettered inspiration, and then start molding from there. And I thought that was a big thing to learn too.

Lorien: That's what I learned at Pixar, right? Especially working with Pete Docter. He has a very clear direction he's going in. And then he collects people around him who believe in that vision and understand what it is. And then he lets them go off and then bring things back to him. And then, but letting them have the freedom and the encouragement and the support to like,fFigure out their version of that. 

But it's always like that central, like you said, the North Star. So you decide what the North Star is and then people come to you and then you get to make those decisions. Which then– 

Meg: As a writer, that's why you got to know what your North Star is. That's why Lorien and I are talking about it all the time, right? What's the rudder of the character, of the theme, of the plot, because eventually you're going to be, if you're a showrunner or a director, they're going to be asking lots of questions about it.

So, I love this conversation. I could talk to you all day, but I know we don't have you all day and it's getting dark outside behind you. So suddenly the mom in me is like, oh my gosh, it's very late where she is. 

Okay. So we always end the show with the same three questions for our guests. So Lorien will start. 

Lorien: I get this one this time. What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? 

Jenna: As someone who's watched the show, I should have prepared my answers, but. I have one. Okay, I know it. What brings me the most joy when it comes to writing is having achieved something that day that I know is both authentic, and will move or move to laughter the person who knows from it.

It may not touch everybody, but the people that know it will laugh or be, you know, emotionally moved in some way. So if I've even achieved one line of dialogue that day that I feel that way about, I can sort of go to bed happy. So authenticity and humor. 

Meg: Yeah. Perfect. What pisses you off about writing?

Jenna: What pisses me off about writing? Oh, goodness, how long do you have? You know, about the profession of writing, I will say, what has been pissing me off a little bit lately is I don't know that what we do is understood on a deep level by some who are not writers in this business. I, it is so incredibly fucking hard to do this. It is so hard to get a show made at all. But to get a show made well, that you're proud of, that's even a tenth what you hoped it might be, takes your full body and soul commitment.

And think that this, the talk of deals and how much everyone gets paid per week, and it's this certain amount and that's what you get. And there's just a certain, because there were, I guess there's, there were so many shows and now there are fewer. So there's just so much supply and not as much demand.

I do think I see writers being treated as interchangeable. Well, you won't do it for that amount. We'll get somebody who will. I get it from a business perspective. But actually it's really hard to be good at this. And it's not that easy to just get someone else. 

So, it pisses me off when writers are treated like cogs in a machine. Because this is so much more than a job if you want to be any good at it at all. You kind of have to, at least, I'm not a, like, touched by whatever angel makes, made David E. Kelley. I have to work really hard to do even just an okay job. And I think most writers do. So I just, when I see writers being disrespected in that way, that pisses me off.

Meg: Thousand percent. 

Lorien: Can we just take a clip of that? 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Lorien: Just like that's the clue. Dear everyone.  Dear industry.

Jeff: So beautifully articulated, so agreed. I feel seen by that answer, so thank you for sharing. The last question we asked Jenna is, if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give to that Jenna?

Jenna: You can edit out all the time I have to think about this. 

Jeff: Take your time, that's fine. 

Jenna: It sounds like such a platitude, and I'm sure I wouldn't have taken the advice. But I would have told my younger self not to worry so much about what other people think because they're not even really thinking about you anyway. Just, and that actually does apply to emerging writers because finding your voice is, that is the tool that you have.

Find your authentic, unique voice. That is so valuable. Don't try to write what everyone else is writing, don't try to write what you heard is selling, or what sold last week. Oh, I hear this studio is looking for that. Good luck. I mean, that wouldn't work for me. One, I couldn't write it fast enough, and two, it's just not gonna be that great.

It's like my brother is an artist and, you know, he doesn't want to work on commission all the time. He wants to paint what he's inspired to paint. And cause that's what's, why is he doing it otherwise? Like, is he a bricklayer, or is he, not that there's anything wrong with that, but you're laying, you know, these preformed things.

Meg: It’s craft or art. 

Jenna: Yeah, and if you're going to choose art, then choose it all the way. And I totally understand making decisions out of fear when you're trying to break into the industry. It's just that's not going to actually work. 

Breaking in is going to happen because you were authentic to yourself. You listened to that voice that, you know, won't shut up. Put that voice down on paper. That's how you're going to get your foot in the door. So I would have told, I would have told the young me that. I probably wouldn't have listened, but. 

Meg: Would any of us have listened, but it's so smart.

Jeff: Very in step with what we say on the show. So it's just great. 

Meg: Thank you so much for being on the show. 

Jenna: Thank you for having me. It was really fun and I'm embarrassed that I didn't have my answers ready because I listen to the show and–

Meg: No, it's okay because it's better. It's better to be impromptu, I think. It's from your heart and and that really was very meaningful. And we were such, we're all such fans of the show that it was really a thrill to have you on.

Jenna: Oh, thank you so much. 

Meg: Thanks so much to Jenna for joining us on today's show. 

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.