224 | LIVE From Austin Film Festival 2024: Story Workshop

Thanks to AFF for welcoming us back this year for another Story Workshop, and a special thanks to Brittney, Jessica, and Adam for sharing their projects. If you'd like to reach Adam to discuss his cult-inspired TV show, you can reach him here: https://www.adambranson.com/contact

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: And without further ado, The Screenwriting Life live.

Okay, so, I'm Lorien and this is Meg. And you'll also be hearing this as part of our podcast, so no pressure on the people who are going to come up and share our story. But it's good actually because some people tend to figure out when they are doing this with us. So they can actually go and listen to it again, if you're one of the people who gets to come up. 

So, Jonathan, one of our producers, is going to select people based on us. Would anyone else who didn't sign up to come up and talk to us about their story like to volunteer? All right. So, Jonathan is going to run out into the audience like The Price is Right.

So the idea is you're going to come up and share your story with us. And that doesn't mean pitch it, unless you want to. We're not looking for a solid pitch. We're not, you're not trying to impress us. This isn't a grade. We really want to help you dig a little deeper and figure out what you might be struggling with.

And sometimes people cry, but it's okay. No–

Meg: In a good way. o them at the party after they've had a drink or two. 

Lorien: With prizes. 

Meg: This is a random number generator. 

Jonathan: I wish there was a more exciting way to. Number five, Brittany.

Lorien: Brittany, come on down. Brittany, how are you doing? 

Brittany: I'm good. 

Lorien: Are you a little nervous?

Brittany: A little bit

Lorien: In a good way, yes. So, this can be really nerve wracking for the people who get to come up here and do this. So, I think collectively, let's all agree that this is a safe space and that we're going to be supportive. And this isn't a place to raise hands and interrupt or have story ideas. Even if you have an amazing idea, it's okay not to share it. 

Meg: You can talk to them after.

Lorien: Yes. Go right up to them and be like–

Meg: We're gonna have a big party after, right? So you can go t. 

Meg: Is it on? I don't know, people, audio, is it on? 

Brittany: Hello? 

Meg: Oh, yeah!

Brittany: Okay, so it is a rough idea of a horror movie. The title is called Lights, Camera, Death. 

Lorien: I'm in. 

Brittany: I have two characters. One is, wants to be an actress, moved to Hollywood, can't get any roles. And she sees this flyer in a cafe. She pulls it, she calls the number, they cast her. 

Lorien: Is this a feature or a TV show?

Brittany: It's a feature. 

Lorien: It's a feature. And what kind of horror is it? 

Brittany: It's gonna be, it's like, what is it called? 

Lorien: Like, is it Friday the 13th? Is it like Shaun of the Dead.

Brittany: It's like Escape Room. They're all trapped in like a warehouse.

Lorien: Oh, sorry, I'm talking so intimately. I got really into it. So it's a feature. And it's horror, and I asked what kind of horror. So, you said like Escape Room? 

Brittany: Yeah, it's gonna be like Escape Room. 

Lorien: Is there a movie that has like a tonal comp that you can think of? That has the same feeling? Oh, Escape Room is a movie. 

Brittany: Yeah, Escape Room is a movie. There's two of them. 

Lorien: I am well versed in the genre, clearly. Okay, go ahead.

Brittany: So, it's kind of like a movie in a movie. Because the other character is the filmmaker. And she's like, I'm going to make a slasher movie, and she casts all these people to die in her slasher movie. But what they don't know, that in the terms and conditions, is that they're actually going to die.

And so she actually kills them, and some of the actors think that, like, this is really good gore, like this person really looks like they're dead. And then they realize they really are dead. And then they're like, realize they're trapped in this warehouse. And that she's like, talking to them through the speakers, like, you're ruining my movie, you're not doing what I want you to do anymore, you're going off script.

And so the actress that got the number, she's gonna be like the final girl, and she has to fight this, the filmmaker. And she actually realizes that like, I'm not exactly sure, like they're related maybe, a long lost sister or something, and have some kind of, epic battle at the end where they fight and you think the villain is dead, but she's not, but the final girl lives.

Meg: Okay, good. 

Lorien: Thank you. Good job. So the actress who's looking for a job is the main character. 

Brittany: Yes. 

Lorien: And when about does she realize that the stakes really are life and death? 

Brittany: Pretty much when they find the second person that's dead and they're really dead. 

Lorien: So how far into the script? Like minutes or page count or act one, act two?

Brittany: I would think it's probably towards the end of act one. They would realize that these people are really dead. 

Lorien: And who is the they, who is with her? 

Brittany: The other actors. 

Lorien: Okay, how many are there? 

Brittany: I would think like six or seven. 

Lorien: That's okay if you don't know. 

Brittany: I mean, I don't want to have too many, but you need some, the body count. So, I mean. 

Lorien: So, she wants this job, why does she want to be an actress? Why is this worth answering some random call, like a telephone poll, you know, to go do this thing that she does? 

Brittany: So she, this is like her childhood dream. And, you know, her mother is always like, Hollywood is not good. You're not going to make it. You're going to be penniless. And her mom has been right so far. And so she finds this role and she gets cast like immediately. And she's like, I'm going to prove my mom wrong. But then she ends up in a horror movie that's real. 

Meg: Where does she end up at the end? 

Brittany: Well, she ends up, almost dead, but escapes last minute through like this exit that she finds. And the villain is down, but not dead. 

Meg: So at the end, she doesn't kill the villain. 

Brittany: She thinks the villain is dead, but last minute, you know, the villain is alive. 

Meg: Where does she end up as a character? 

Brittany: Well, she ends up realizing she doesn't want to be an actress, that she wants to leave Hollywood, and that she's just glad to be alive, maybe. Actually admit to her mom that she's right?

Lorien: I have so many questions.

So at the beginning of the movie, she's pretty clear that her mom is wrong. And we are rooting for her to go be an actress, and that her mom is wrong. We are on her side. What are you doing in act two to convince me, rather, other than the, there's a murderer out to get you. 

Like the, so act two, right, what Meg talks about is a belief system is gonna collapse, that mom is wrong. And so she's gonna tip over to mom is right. So what are those things that are happening, like choices she's making, that she's like, oh wow, acting in Hollywood is bad. That's what she needs to realize, right? But she's in this life and death situation, so how is that a metaphor for Hollywood? Is that what you're trying to do?

Brittany: Yeah, so, I mean, she will talk to the other characters, kind of learn their journey, kind of learn that it's, you know, how hard it is, and kind of how, you know, maybe this isn't for her. And then, like, I'll just do this one movie, so at least I said I did something. But then realize that, you know, this isn't really a movie.

Meg: So do you think that there's something inauthentic about her wanting to be an actress? Is it authentically what she wants to be? Is it her true talent or is she doing it kind of inauthentically? Is it a false goal? Like to prove her mom wrong? 

Brittany: Yeah, I mean, it could be that. Yeah, like, this has just been her idea since childhood, and then her mom's just always against it, that she just wants to prove her wrong, that she doesn't even realize, maybe, I don't even want this.

Meg: What does she want? That's, it's, again, take it or leave it, these are just ideas for you to play with. It's somewhat unsatisfying to go home to your mom as the ultimate realization, right? Because, how old is she? 

Brittany: I would imagine early 20s. 

Meg: Right, so she's kind of growing up, right? Well, as a mom, you shouldn't want your kid to realize you need to come home at 20 something, right? That you want them to–

Lorien: That's not what we want.

Meg: You want them to go out into their lives. Cause it seems unhealthy for her mother to want her to come back home. So then for her to get to that unhealthy place. It's just, it's bumping me a little bit, like in terms of the wish fulfillment or the satisfaction of a character wanting to go home. Unless, there is something authentic about going home. 

Like, so for example, if your mother was like, you shouldn't be an actress, and the truth is she's right, but she's wrong about something else. About how strong I am, what I can take. Or, you know, something that these movies, in terms of survival, and, like, why is she the hero? I guess is my question from earlier, from my thing. 

Like, of all the girls that could come into this situation, why is she the one that will survive, and why is she the one that's gonna, at least in appearance, I mean, these guys never die, but vanquish the person, right?

I kind of want to know why she's the hero of the movie. And I would also consider, as you develop it, the kind of last girl standing. I know it's a genre, trope isn't the right word, but expectation, I guess, right? 

Brittany: Yeah.

Meg: The kind of girl. I'd love to have your personal take on it within the plot somehow. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that you're, and I know it's a new idea. So it's just things for you to think about as you go. 

Like, how are you gonna twist that or subvert my expectation in terms of this isn't just an innocent, because you know, there's a lot of cultural iconic things in those old 70s movies. Like, they're virginal, right? There's a lot of other stuff percolating underneath the surface of those girls. And so I'd love to hear a modern female version of that girl, which you are. So just something to think about. Right? 

And the other thing I would have you think about is, I'm not a big horror person, so I think you watch them, so you maybe can help better than I can, but I would want to know kind of how, this is such a weird thing to say, but, how she's killing them, or like, why does it feel different, right? Versus just slash, slash, slash, slash, like, what is the kind of personality of the killer, and what does she like to do to the bodies, or, like.

Brittany: Well, she likes to make it artistic.

Meg: So she's making her–

Brittany: She stages them just so. 

Meg: She's staging them. 

Brittany: Yeah, she stages them. 

Meg: So often the antagonist is a darker part of the protagonist. So sometimes to get to that modern girl. So who is the antagonist? 

Brittany: It would be the filmmaker. 

Meg: Right, but who is she as a character? Why is she doing this? 

Brittany: Well, she also failed in Hollywood. She tried to be big. Nobody ever wanted her. So she's like, I'm going to make my own films. But they kind of made her bitter. And so she just also doesn't like actors. So she's, I'll just kill them and make my movie. 

Lorien: Welcome to Hollywood, everyone.

Meg: I heard two things. I heard bitter, and that this girl could go bitter. Right? Is a deeper danger in a way, metaphorically, that she could go bitter in her quest for that. And I heard you say nobody wanted her. So there's something juicy bubbling there about being wanted, right? 

Because actors, and they're in it long enough, start to understand this has nothing to do with them. It's not personal, it has nothing to do with your value, it just doesn't fit the part, the wheel is turning, it didn't work. 

So for her to be thinking people want her or don't want her as a young, and it's fine, she's twenty something years old, view of the, right? So there's something bubbling in that about being wanted. So I would dig around in there. 

Lorien: So, have you seen Carrie? 

Brittany: Yeah. 

Lorien: Okay, so there's a lot of mother daughter dynamics, right? And the mother is holding Carrie back. And what's interesting about what you said is how she's killing them, right? We open with Carrie getting her period in the shower, then we have the full blood bath at the prom, right? And then she, it turns red and she kills everyone, right, at their own game. But it's very much a mother telling a daughter what she can't do because of her own fears. 

And for your movie, what if the mother is the antagonist, the killer, but she's just a voice and she's trying to teach her daughter you can't do this and is killing people in order to teach her that this isn't something you can do. 

Unlike Carrie, who dies at the end, mostly. There is that modern twist you can put on that mother daughter power dynamic, which is I think what you're digging into. Right? Mom is telling me no. Mom is telling me not, this isn't what you should, can do. Cause look at me. Whether she admits that or not.

Meg: There's the other version, which is the Psycho version, which is we think she's being haunted by somebody, but she's actually the killer. Right? And there's a Mickey Rourke movie with De Niro where you don't realize the whole movie that, Mickey Rourke doesn't realize he's two people. Which I can't remember the name of it, I just remember. Angel Heart, right? De Niro's peeling the egg with his fingernails. 

Lorien: I saw that movie way too young. 

Meg: Again, where our brains are going here to look for a twist. To look for something, and again, those twists are so metaphorically about what this is about, emotionally. I mean, when you think about Carrie, even just hearing you say that, I'm like, oh my god, I hate that.

That a woman getting her period and her power comes on, therefore she must be abused and victimized and use her power to kill people.

Lorien: And becomes an abuser and a victimizer. 

Meg: Oh my god. 

Lorien: And she dies.

Meg: People are very afraid of women power. Right? And so there's part of me that's getting a little bit like, but are you saying the same thing, that she shouldn't be powerful, she shouldn't enter into her own self, and she should retreat back home? 

Again, these are dreams, and you just have to be, at some point in the writing process, ask yourself what that metaphor means. And is that what you want the metaphor to mean? Right? Just things for you to think about. 

Lorien: I think the most important question that Meg asked was, if she doesn't want to be an actress, what is the real dream? If that's an inauthentic want, based on reaction to her mother, what is the real dream that she can get to?

So, instead of going home, to prove her mother right, because that's my own personal pet peeve, is, no, she is not right. What is that actual want? That, or the problem that she's solving that can be solved in a different way. Did I say that the right way? 

Meg: Yes, because the concept itself is really fun, and it has a lot of legs, and it could really be made, and it won't be expensive. And so it's just to make sure the metaphor at the end of the movie is what you want to say about femininity or female power.

Brittany: Okay. 

Meg: Because it's two females, right? And one's bitter and dark, and the other one might go bitter and dark. And so is the answer to retreat back to the old female generation saying you can't do that, you can't be powerful, you can't express yourself artistically. And this just depends on what you want to say.

Brittany: Alright, so I have a random idea. 

Meg: Okay. 

Brittany: So let's say that the actress works at a bookstore, and she just doesn't think that's enough, and that's why she wants to be an actress, but that's the false goal. But then after this, and she survives, she actually realizes that she really does like working in the bookstore, and would actually, like, want to be manager or own it. And that's, like, sort of how it ends, other than living. 

Meg: Yes, I mean, as long as I really want her to be in the bookstore at the end. 

Lorien: Right, we see her finding the right books for people, and she has a community, and then, but this goal, everyone's like, yay! Go! Have fun being an actress! Right? But then she can come back and be satisfied.

I had another question, then I forgot it. Sorry. Oh, what's your favorite horror movie? 

Brittany: Scream. Okay, so that has, like, that dark, satiric edge to it, right? And it feels like you're tipping into that a little bit, which is my territory, right? Which is like the Heathers, Shaun of the Dead kind of thing, right? Yeah? It's always Heathers, comes up for me. 

Think about how you can play up that, too. And that those movies are very meta, right. What's it like to live in high school? 

Meg: What is the satire satirizing? What is it, what are you saying? 

Lorien: Yeah, what is the satire satirizing? What is the metaphor metaphoring?

Meg: Genius. 

Lorien: Write this stuff down. This is gold.

Meg: Genius. I had a tequila. Thank you very much. Amazing.

Hey everyone. We wanted to let you know about a special holiday deal for TSL Workshops, our membership community. From now until January 1st, we're offering a 5 day free trial plus 50% off your first 3 months of TSL workshops using the code HOLIDAY24, H O L I D A Y 2 4. 

Lorien: If you didn't know, TSL Workshops is a community that offers twice a month live workshops with us in addition to a series of premium workshops with some of our favorite industry experts like story consultant Pat Verducci and producer Sheila Hanahan Taylor.

We want to meet you, so come on over by clicking the link in the description below and using the discount code HOLIDAY24. 

Meg: We'll see you soon. Happy Holidays!

Alright, Jonathan.

Jonathan: Okay, number eight, Jessica.

Meg: Alright. Jessica's not so sure anymore. 

Lorien: Show us your notebook. What?

Jessica: I had a false memory that I was number nine. And so when he said number eight, I was like, oh, thank god. Hi. 

Meg: Hi. 

Lorien: So you're saying this is like a trauma for you. 

Jessica: I guess we'll see how it goes. Okay, so first of all, early 1900s, there is a witch in New York City who runs a matchmaking ring with fairies. Now, she uses fairies because they can travel, sort of, through time. They don't have the limitations that humans have, so they can go anywhere. I'm sorry, not time, but like, location. And they can go anywhere. She can deputize them to anywhere in the world, so people can write her letters from anywhere, ask for her services. 

So, two fairies are on their last chance. They screwed up with their last match, so this is like, they're about to get fired. Matchmaking is a big deal for fairies. It's what they want to do, so that would be very bad. 

She sends them to Sleepy Hollow, because the mayor's daughter is very free spirited. She's kind of like a Belle from Beauty and the Beast. She's just that one who just sort of waltzes through town, does not have really any sights on marriage, but her father is the mayor, and they want her to get married, and having a good match is very important. 

So they want a man, a businessman from New York City. And he, they have him go to, they, like, cast a spell on his father to send him to Sleepy Hollow for some kind of business trip. His younger, very rakish, irresponsible brother ends up going with him. And these bumbly fairies make the wrong match. So she falls in love with the younger brother instead.

Then of course they have to undo their love spell. But in the process they fall in love with her, they realize they really want her to be happy. And they don't want to take this away from her, because these two are actually a really good match. They're not an on paper match, they're a real, like, a real one. So they don't want to take it away from her. 

So, the arc being that her parents eventually come to realize that, well, she does end up agreeing to marry the wrong guy, when they send the younger brother back home. But, the brothers actually have a moment where they decide that the older brother is the one who really wants to run the family business, and he goes back to New York instead.

The younger brother stays and goes after our Belle. Her parents realized that they cared too much what other people thought. Because the whole town actually loves her, and they never had a problem with her doing whatever she wanted. And they never wanted her to make the right match with the rich guy. So that's the ending.

Meg: Thank you. Okay, good. Yeah.

Lorien: So here's a big question. What choices does your main character make? 

Meg: I have a first question. Who is the main character? 

Jessica: Who is the main character? Our Belle? 

Meg: Is it Belle or is it the fairies? 

Jessica: Oh, it's well, it's the fairies. 

Meg: The fairies are the main character.

Jessica: The fairies are the main character.

Meg: And Belle is the prize they're trying to work with.

The prize, like she's, they have to make, she's the chore, she's the challenge. 

Jessica: She's the chore, exactly, yes.

Lorien: And what is the, if she marries the business man, then they're not on, they're not in trouble anymore. 

Jessica: Correct. 

What happens if she doesn't marry the business man? 

Jessica: They get banished and the fairies, they don't have a career anymore. There's nothing they can do. And fairies eventually, it's kind of, kind of like Tinkerbell when nobody believes in them anymore. They eventually fade away and just die because they don't have a reason to keep going. And they love interacting with humans, and this is the only, one of the only ways they can. 

Lorien: So they're the ones who are going to the brothers, like how are they, cause you, it's a great set up, and then it was the brothers make the choice, and then the parents make the choice. So I was trying to figure out, is Belle the main character, but the fairies weren't in the back half in terms of who was driving it. Like, in terms of who the main character is and what their goal is and keeping it consistent throughout.

Jessica: So they have their little systems. It's mostly through potions. So, they give the potion to the wrong guy. Then they have to do a potion to undo that potion and give the right potion to the right guy. But, in their, they set up a little workshop and sort of sabotage themselves when they realize they don't actually want to do that.

Meg: And where is that? Where are we? Like, what's the midpoint of this? What's their midpoint character wise? And you might not know, and it's totally fine. 

Jessica: I do, but I was so unprepared for this, because I didn't know this was gonna happen, that if I had my outline in front of me, I could tell you. 

Meg: I know, I'm sorry.

Jessica: But so

Meg: What we're looking for, whether you, and again, we can just stay broad, is we're looking for who's the main character and how is their want driving, their plot want driving this whole act. right. 

Meg: And I agree with Lorien, sometimes the other characters are making the moves that are changing the plot, like for the brother, just to realize, oh, I want to run the business. I'm assuming the fairies have to make him realize that. 

Like if you said to me, at the end of act one is, oh my gosh, we have to change this, and the midpoint is we can't use any more potions. So we're gonna have to up our game and really get to know humans better, and realize something about humans, and therefore realize something about ourselves.

Like, I'm looking for how their plot choices and what they get thrown in terms of stakes is really starting to create a story for them. Because right now, Belle and those guys kind of take over the story in the middle. And they become side characters. 

Lorien: But if you have an outline and you haven't written the script yet, and you're telling us the story, this is what can happen, right? Because it's the things that you remember. So it's not necessarily like, this is something that's broken, it's how you're telling us the story. So, it's something to think about. 

What is your favorite part of this story? Like a beat, or an act, or something that happens. Like, what is the thing that you're like, I love this part?

Jessica: The Halloween ball at the end, when it's the happy ending and they get together. 

Meg: And who's they that get together? 

Jessica: Belle and the younger brother.

Meg: Your favorite part has nothing to do with fairies. 

Jessica: The fairies are there, and Odessa, their boss, finds out what they've been up to, and gets very upset, crashes the party, and the fairies actually get rid of her, to their own detriment, because she'll obviously have them banished and killed. But they decide to take that risk and get her out and say, this is one we're not meddling with. 

Lorien: What if, that your girl, your Belle, is the main character. And she knows that she has to get married. She doesn't want to marry that guy, so she calls the fairies down to help her marry the guy she really loves. 

Jessica: Thank you for saying that because that's the midpoint. I can't believe I completely skipped over the fact that the fairies and Belle become friends. 

Lorien: What if that's not the midpoint though? What if that's act one? 

Jessica: Okay.

Meg: Yeah, but how is the midpoint the fairies’ midpoint versus Belle's midpoint? Because she, at least what she pitched, and I'm not saying it was, she's pitching that Belle's taking the action to call the fairies in.

Just, do you hear how whoever's taking the action and creating the plot is the main character? Whether you want it to be them or not, it, the whole thing will slide over to them. Right? So either the fairies have to decide we're gonna go against our boss and we're going to risk annihilation for this girl because we love her so much. Or it's Belle calling the fairies in. Right? Those are very different main characters. 

And in terms of the fairies, and this is just, I'm sure in your story, you have it, but even in it just telling people, I kind of immediately want to know who the characters are of the fairies, especially if they're the main characters, right?

Like they're, one fairy is this kind of character, and the other one is this, and one follows the other one, and it feels like he's always getting into trouble because you're always so, you know. What is going on between the two of them that has to also get worked out? 

Because my immediate question is, if we stick with the fairies as the main character, and you can switch it over to Belle who would probably have to call them in, right? Like maybe other fairies are trying to get her together with one guy and she calls her own set, you know, to get out of that marriage. But–

Lorien: She does the potion wrong, so she gets these two rejects. 

Meg: What's the main relationship of the movie? 

Jessica: The main relationship is between the fairies and Belle. So that's, that is one thing that they're also not supposed to do, is they're not supposed to befriend the person that they're manipulating, that they're putting spells on and giving potions to. 

They're supposed to just be you know, little fairies, just like sprinkling fairy dust on stuff. They're not supposed to actually have a relationship with them. 

Meg: So are they at the end of act two, realizing they are manipulators instead of magic makers? And they don't wanna be manipulators anymore. 

So then they have to talk, you know, take ownership of that. They, it's not their boss's fault. They have been manipulating. So they have to also look at how they've manipulated themselves. 

Jessica: Right. And they disagree, they have conflict with each other about that, because one of them thinks, same goal, they want to impress their boss. But one of them thinks that if they just push the envelope and take the risk, it'll be worth it in the end. The other thinks that's making it worse. But obviously they do end up going with the riskier choice and befriending her. 

Lorien: So then what they learn at the end of Act 2, they have to put that into action in Act 3. So they have to go fix it with the brothers and fix it with the parents. So they're the ones–

Meg: Without manipulating. 

Lorien: Without manipulating. 

Meg: Because now they've learned that's all manipulation and you have to do it more directly. Passive aggressive fairies versus direct fairies. 

Jessica: So they have to admit it. So they, Belle knows, and then they have to admit it to the brothers too. And tell them that it's actually their decision, and not the fairies’ decision. And the younger brother decides to stay, the older brother decides to go back to New York.

Meg: So their big action in the climax is to allow somebody else to make the choice.

Jessica: The choice that they've been driving so far. Yeah. 

Meg: Yeah. And this is just for when you get there, because I think that's completely legit. It will be hard, because I've written these movies, where, when the action of the climax is not doing something, it's really tricky. And you would, you should literally go look at movies where that is the climax of the movie. Is a character stopping something and not doing something? I tried to do it in My Father's Dragon. It's really hard because they're not doing anything, right? 

So, you can fudge around with like, well, they have to, you have to find something they have to do in order to let them make their choice. Like, you've got to get the potion spell off of them. Like maybe the bad boss has come and she's gonna manipulate them because that's what she's being paid for. So now you're against her and she's put the spell on them. So now you have to battle your boss to get the spell off so they can make their own choice. 

Jessica: Yes, and actually, I'm so glad you're asking these questions. This is making me remember my own story. She does. Odessa actually secretly sends two other fairies to spy on them. Which is how she knows that they've bungled it again and shows up at the end. 

So, they get in a battle with the two other fairies who are trying to do what Odessa wants. And they have to choose not to–

Meg: Don't we want them to battle the boss? 

Jessica: Well, they do when she shows up. So, shortly after that.

Meg: But I'm talking about the climax of the movie, right? They have to do something, you know, climactic. Like, the ultimate challenge would be her, right? Not separate fairies. 

Jessica: And that’s the Halloween party when Odessa shows up. 

Lorien: So, in the beginning you said this is a rom com. So, the two fairies, is that like our, those that's our romantic relationship, like a friend rom com? Because the romance you have in the background, with the two humans, that's like the B story, right? But the A story, if it's a rom com, it's between those two fairies. 

Jessica: I guess it is more of a buddy comedy than a rom com.

Meg: And there's bromances. 

Jessica: Right. 

Lorien: Yes, but just in terms of, like, rom com, I was like, okay, so it's the two humans, and the fairies are setting them up, so that's why I went to Belle as the main character. So just be really clear about, yeah, I mean, it could be a, I don't know if they're gendered. Doesn't even matter. It doesn't have to be romantic, but like, is it those two fairies who don't like each other, and they're both forced to work together, and they have sort of different ideas, and then.

Meg: Or if they're friends, like, and the theme is manipulation at some level, right? Then they, you have to get to, how do we manipulate our friends, right? And for what reason? And who really has to, of those two fairies, has to take ownership now of something? To, about, not about Belle, not about their boss, but about their friend who they led into this. And manipulated into this. And is now going to disappear. 

Right, like where is the juice of that relationship at that end of act two? Where are the true deep heart stakes? Right, it's not about Belle not getting married. It's not about this evil person showing up and victimizing us. It's about I convinced my friend to do something they didn't want to do and now they're going to die.

Jessica: Yeah.

Meg: Because I manipulated them. Because I'm a really good fairy. Like, that's a hard choice. Like, what if the thing you really are good at is manipulating? But if you continue to do it, your best friend will die. 

Jessica: Right. 

Meg: Right? Like, you gotta get. Like, let's just say, I'm not saying that's your movie, but if you decide, okay, I want to try that version, now I know what kind of climax I need. Because if that's the emotional heartbeat of this thing and where we're gonna get the confrontation internally of one of those fairies about manipulation and friendship, well then that climax has to be about friendship and not manipulating. More than Belle, more than any of that other stuff, right? 

And where does it have to start? It has to start with us not understanding, because they don't understand how much they are manipulating their friend. And we see their friend as weak, and we see their friend as needy, and we see their friend as, right?

Which is why they need you. Like, why do you unconsciously use or manipulate your friends? Because you tell yourself a story about it, right? So then, you put us in that emotional point of view of that fairy. Right? Which is, you know, your fairy friend is Zach Galifianitis, or whatever, and you're like, oh my god, you are so bad, right? And you make me bad, and you fuck everything up, and you make me bad, so let, will you treat, you know? 

So that you're, that's really now what you're gonna be tracking on the spine structure of the story, is that friendship. No matter what happens, Belle and the brothers and all that stuff is just the prism through which you're going to see the friendship.

If you pick that as your end of act two. If you pick at the end of act two is Belle wakes up to something about herself. Right, well then you track and who, with who, what relationship is happening that she's waking up to. Not about just external forces and nobody lets her, but about herself and her own self responsibility. Right? 

Her own mistakes. Her own vulnerability. And then you track that relationship back. And use the fairies now to pull that out. Do you see the difference? 

Brittany: Yeah. 

Meg: So that end of act two can really tell you your whole version. And there's many versions, right? But that, and it, and once you have that, it also helps you know how to pitch it. And again, we're not asking you to pitch today. But if you did, if I'm pitching a fairy friendship, I know I'm going to pitch you that end of act two. Right? 

So it's just some place to go look for, because you have a lot of beautiful threads. Right? And you have these two beautiful separate stories. But we're just trying to help you find a way to find a story in which one is servicing the other. 

Brittany: Right. 

Lorien: We did this episode once called, Pick a Pony. So I think it's picking and then see which one, like the friendship or Belle or whichever version, the one that makes you feel, right, the most intensely that you've, that lava of, ooh, this is, there's something in there.

If it's manipulation, if it's friendship, if it's true love, like whatever that thing is in there that you resonate with, right? Like what's your favorite movie? One of your favorite movies? 

Jessica: Completely unrelated American Psycho? I mean.

Meg: Okay. I don't think it's unrelated. 

Lorien: No, it's not. Because this is so–

Meg: Thematically, it is absolutely related. Because what's happening in American Psycho, it's a manipulation. The whole thing is a manipulation. So you have a question about manipulation. And that manipulation question can come up into American Psycho, it can go to a fun fairy movie, the genre of where that goes, it can be anything.

But the question you have is about manipulation. I also just want to say before I forget, and I'm not saying this to you now about your story, but it made me think of something. It is important to know what you feel the most as you try the versions, but just one thing to be aware of, and I'm very bad at this myself. 

Let's say, I'm just making this up now, it's not about you, in the ball, what you really love is, you know, that she gets the guy. Let's just say. Is that the thing that you love, the writer loves, not because it's not I'm talking about you now, because it is, it feels safe, and because it feels like wish fulfillment, and because it feels like comfortable. 

I want you to go towards the feeling that makes you feel uncertain. I want you to go towards the feeling that makes you feel vulnerable. Right? Because if you go towards the feeling that makes you just feel safe, it might be your brain’s dodge back into old consciousness. 

Meg: And it's just going to try to get you to tell the same story again that feels safe. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Meg: Versus I think the dreamer is asking for something deeper than that. Right? 

Jessica: It's really that's when they know it's coming. That if they stand up for her, it's gonna be the end for them. But this is the scene where they actually do, because it is the sweet scene where it's a masquerade ball. And of course like she doesn't know he’s there 'cause he's in a mask. 

Meg: Because that's the opposite of manipulation. 

Jessica: It's the witch crashing the ball and then the fairies having to actually like, have. The moment has come. 

Meg: It is passive aggressive versus direct. 

Jessica: They have to choose. 

Meg: Oh, yes, it's passive aggressive versus direct. It's manipulation versus I'm going to stand here in the fire and directly take you on. I'm not gonna manipulate you. I'm not gonna passive aggressively go after you. And if it means I die, it means I die. Right? 

So you have a deep question about manipulation. Versus standing your ground and being direct. So if I were you, because that's all bubbling up as you tell us, I would definitely map aversion. The pony I'd pick first is that manipulation line, because your brain really is asking questions about it.

So if it starts to even make you uncomfortable, really go, because it's, it is all right, and it's all over the story. 

Lorien: Yeah. And rom coms are, right. We're always lie, you know, the characters are always hiding something. Lying. Right. And then the one has to come clean. Right. It's always that. So Meg's right, listen to her. 

Meg: Yay. 

Lorien: Yay. 

Jessica: Thank you.

Meg: Drum roll.

Jonathan: Number thirty, Adam. 

Meg: You did it. 

Lorien: You manifested this. 

Meg: You totally manifested this, yes.

Adam: I really did. 

Meg: He told us he was coming and that he would pitch to us. 

Lorien: Is this about a cult? 

Adam: Yes. 

Lorien: Okay. 

Adam: I grew up in a cult. I was excommunicated ten years ago for marrying my husband, and it took me until three years ago to be able to say that out loud.

So I grew up in a really small town. So I grew up Mormon, a lot of people might not say it's a cult, I could tell you why it is, but there's a church on every single corner. And, all different kinds. A lot were non-denominational. 

And so I have friends that would come to school talking about the oil that rained from the ceiling on Sunday, or the pastor levitated the piano, an angel came to visit our congregation, like really. On Halloween they would do twenty-four, like, all night long prayers for the virgins being sacrificed with the Gucci State Forest, and okay.

So we're encouraged as like Mormon kids to be around people with high standards, which means that they don't drink coffee or alcohol or anything like that. And so the kids in my high school that were like that, yeah, oops, were those Christian kids, but they had lessons on Sunday and Sunday school about how we were devil worshipers and how we were bad.

So it's like, I always was between not only dealing with my sexuality and not being the same as everybody. And I didn't even understand exactly the language for it, but I'm like in these weird worlds. But in any case, so that's the backdrop. My story takes place in my hometown. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.

So whereas I was in this cult and I got out, I thought it'd be really funny or interesting to have somebody know it's a cult and purposely get in. So my story is about Rowdy. He's a small town gay park worker. 

Meg: Are we doing a feature? 

Adam: Oh, thank you. Yeah. No, this is a pilot. 

Meg: It's a pilot. 

Lorien: Is it half hour, one hour? 

Adam: One hour. 

Meg: One hour. Comp?

Adam: It was supposed to be a drama, but every coverage I get says it's a deeply comedic drama, like darkly tragic comedy, so I'm, it's fine. I'm leaning into it. 

Meg: Dark, tragic comedy. 

Adam: Yeah, let's do that one. So comps, you said, right? I like, it doesn't feel like Orange is the New Black, but I really love how they establish a character and you make your mind up about that character and you hate that character, and then they show you some backstory. And it changes everything. So I really love that. 

I love Search Party, the kind of just, especially season one, just the mystery behind it, and this desire that the main character has. And then finally, kind of like Fargo, small town, everybody knows everybody. Like, everybody knows what's going on in the background. We don't say it, but we all know about it. 

So this park worker, Rowdy, he is desperate for a promotion, but his boss, Mr. Dan, only gives it to people in his little church group, because it's a cult, it's taking over the town a little bit. They're protesting at the school for the gay teachers, and he's purposely going to join, pretend he has a spiritual awakening. His boss doesn't know he's gay. Just so that he can get this promotion. 

Meg: It might be a comedy, yes. 

Adam: Well, are you ready for the sad part? 

Meg: Okay, tell me the sad part. 

Adam: It is sad, so there's gonna be a real tonal shift right here, right now. It's based off of something that happened to my mom's best friend when her daughter was two years old. She backed over her in the driveway and killed her. 

Meg: Goodness. 

Adam: Which is, like, tragic. So that's the part, that's the tragic part. So Rowdy, his little brother, is five years old. You know, he's finished high school. He's in his 20s and his mom, out of neglect, did the same thing. And she's institutionalized, and he pays for it all, because he never wants to see her ever again. He doesn't want to talk to her, he hasn't talked to her since, and in his mind, she doesn't exist. 

And so he's driven by maintaining the status quo. Everything is the same, every day I do the same exact thing, I use the same walkie talkie at work, I take the same route, like everything, because that's stability. And his childhood wasn't very stable. 

And the catch is, and you know there's many other characters, and he has friends that are really strong friends, Amber and Jesse, who really support him, and they have their own, you know, B-story, C-story. The trick is that Rowdy learns to forgive his mother in the cult. And he has to grapple with how am I bettering myself, and how am I learning these good things in a place that hates me, that hates who I am. 

And that's what I had to deal with. Like, it was really hard. It was like a big shift, right? I left the church and I, that's a lie. I was fired. My family got to quit. It's not as empowering when you're like kicked out. It's like being in an abusive relationship. I got kicked out and I still went. 

So Mormon is an interesting, like you're not shunned. Like you get excommunicated, but you come back. You're not allowed to pray. You're not allowed to, like in church, you're not allowed to talk in church, but you're encouraged to come and it's like a loving thing, but it's not horrible. It isn't horrible. It's embarrassing that I went. I still went back. Can I please sing in the choir? Can I please, like isn't that so sad? 

Meg: Of course you did. Of course you did. Your brain was–

Lorien: I'm sorry that happened to you, and it's not your fault. 

Adam: Thank you. 

Meg: You literally had a brain groove towards it. 

Adam: That's why I cry whenever she does these seminars.

This false belief that I'm like, how steeped in this false belief. But yeah, so I had to grapple with that too. I learned really good things. The fact that I can speak to you like this, that's Mormonism. Like, from a little kid, you're up in front of a whole group. You're reading a talk that you read, like, I'm a good teacher because I grew up Mormon. I love people because I grew up Mormon. Like we're taught we're all brothers and sisters spiritually, like actually we come from the same heavenly parents. 

So when you see anybody, you know that you probably knew them in the, you know, when we lived with God before. So there's like pretty things. But the problem is that we were taught that if this part is good, the whole thing is good. And that's a lie. And I believed it for such a long time. 

So all my characters in the feature I write, in the shorts that I write, they have to come to terms with that. How they saw the world, it's not like that. It's not all the way like that. So even the bad guys in my pilot, they become the good guys. And the good guys, they become the bad guys.

Meg: And so in the TV show, what's kind of the engine of the show? 

Adam: The engine of the show is Rowdy's desperation to keep everything the same. 

Meg: No, the plot engine of the show. Is the show every week I'm tuning in. 

Adam: Oh, I got you. 

Meg: To see him get into the cult, to be in the cult. Like, what's the, what am I tuning in every week to watch?

Adam: So maybe, I don't know if this answers your question, but a big part of the experience is getting validation and being told that you're worthy. And you know, there's a specific, in my experience, or like, there's a list that they read to you, they ask you before you're allowed to go to the temple and you know, all the questions so that you can answer them. And if you answer them, you're worthy, you're good. 

And this desire I always had for this validation from somebody else. And so Rowdy becomes, seeks this validation from the preacher, from Pastor Levi. His boss also seeks out validation and then there's, his boss had this like golden boy who got a DUI and so now he's on the outs. He knows Rowdy's gay and he's blackmailing him at work and he has to do all of his work. 

But everybody wants to, his best friend Jesse, his brother's in jail, he was a race car driver. In my hometown there's this racetrack and it's these legends cars, they're designed like 50s, like trucks, but they race around the track and it's a thing. And so he's, he wants to be like his brother, but his brother is in jail for dealing drugs. And so he doesn't want that part, but he wants his brother's validation. And then Amber, Rowdy's other best friend, she's a tomboy and, but she still wants like friends that are girls. And she looks up to–

Meg: But is the show the town? 

Adam: Yes. 

Meg: Cause, like, let's just say, I'm not saying this is it, like, Breaking Bad, he has a problem, he's gonna solve the problem, and then slowly over the show, become an anti-hero, right? Like, cause he made this choice to save his family, and now it's gonna go like dominoes, and I'm watching every week how far he's gonna go.

Right? For seasons and seasons, you can't believe how far he's gonna go, right? So is yours about, and this is just, I'm not saying this to you now, like, in TV, your pilot is your show. It can't be the setup to the show. And then, okay, the show starts and sees it in the second episode. Your pilot is the show.

So, is the show, he's going to get into the cult and now we're going to watch every week as he teeters between, do I believe this, do I not believe this? And his friends are like, oh my god, is he believing he's. Like, what's the tension of the show that I'm like, oh my god, I have to turn. But that's still a character tension, which is good, but what's the narrative tension of the season too. You know what I mean?

Like, I think the internal stuff is all very rich. It's very authentic. It's very meaningful and worthy. I'm just now looking at the 30, 000 foot what's the show questions. 

Adam: I mean, you are right. So he is going to get more and more involved in the church. And then my idea of, and his friends are going to, what are you doing? This was just, you got the promotion already. Like what's going on? Why do you keep going back? They also use hallucinogenics at the church and he's feeling this like spiritual connection to his brother who's passed away too. So he doesn't want to get, he doesn't want to leave the cult because that's where he feels his brother the most.

It's very manipulative, but at the end he is going to have a choice between his friends. There's going to be a situation. I don't know what it is yet, but.

Meg: The end of the season. 

Adam: Yeah. Like he's, he is going to become the bad guy.

Meg: So is it a limited series? 

Adam: No, I want it to, I want it to keep going. I love this idea because growing up in a small town, you make connections with people, different people that you may not have known, and like all the characters that I have mapped out, you can team up any of them. 

Meg: So you're saying the first season is going to be Rudy, but the second season is going to be Amber, and the third season you're going to pick a different character to go through this town and what's happening?

Adam: And the different relationships. I don't want to lose any of the characters, but I like this idea of, Diving deep into one, and diving deep into another, and just seeing how. 

Lorien: So you're a world builder. 

Adam: Yeah. 

Lorien: And I really relate to all the things you're talking about. What I stumble with when I get really into that stuff is that, what the hell is episode six?

Adam: Yeah. 

Lorien: Right? How does season one end? How does my pilot end so that you want to keep watching this character fuck up. But I'm still rooting for them, even though I know, right, like Breaking Bad is such a good example. You know, he's just gonna keep getting deeper and deeper into it, but there are those moments that we remember he's doing it for the right reasons.

So we're like, right, so If it's more than a promotion, if it's I need the money to pay for my mom.

Adam: To keep my mom from coming home. I didn't say that part. She's getting–

Meg: No you did.

Adam: Okay.

Lorien: But if it's, but if there is a nuance that, right so Breaking Bad is I have this cancer diagnosis problem. I don't want my family to know. But I only have one skill which is chemistry. So clearly I'm going to use it to make drugs. Right? So, but the problem is I want to take care of my family and I don't want them to worry about it. And I'm like, in. 

So how can you take that, if it's the conflict between, I'm going into this cult, but it is actually helping me learn, and giving me some tools that I can use, so it's, I can't forgive my mother, but I love her.

So that there's a more nuanced relationship with the mom, because we do want him to, or whatever it is, or a younger brother, or something that we can root for the reason why he needs that promotion to get into the church. Because we're gonna see that, like Breaking Bad, right? We see that, okay, he's gonna go be a drug lord, you know, but he's taking care of his family.

Adam: So the audience should, they should want that for him, to forgive his mother. 

Lorien: Or not to forgive, but I should understand, I should relate to that. Right? Like, even if it's, yeah, she killed my little brother. I can, I can't kill her, which is what I really want to do. So I'm just gonna take, I'm just gonna pay for her care.

Meg: Or, I mean, and the problem is it happened in the past. So, when your story is firing off of an engine that's not in the show, or in the movie, it's really hard and it gets very diffused emotionally. So I'm going to use this as an example. I'm not saying do this. But if she ran over her child and now he's in a wheelchair, and I have to keep her in there because he is easily swayed by her, right? I'm protecting my alive brother from her. 

I just read Eleanor Oliphant is Fine, which has a mother character who you want her to get away from, so it's in my brain. In terms of, you know, this woman, like, you catch her calling him, or, you know, that I have to keep that away from him. So it doesn't have to be necessarily, I love her, but like, you, whatever you choose, it has to be active and it has to be something that can play out in the episodes.

Lorien: Yeah, I'm like yeah, protect that kid from that woman. Right, she's manipulating, she's calling, she's inserting herself into his life that he is trying to, I want that for him. Yes, keep her away. You need to pay for her to stay away so that he can take care of the brother. 

Meg: Why you need the money has to be very active in the show.

Adam: She's getting better and they want to move her to on-campus apartments and otherwise she has to come home. 

Lorien: So my advice is simplify the pilot. Like I said, you're a world builder, right? It's amazing. You're gonna have lots of stuff to do, like, lots of seasons, but like. Because you said, and then he learns to 

Adam: That doesn't take place in the pilot.

Lorien: Good. Okay, that's what I was worried about. I was like, yikes. 

Adam: But that's like a good part of the story that it's not in the pilot. And I thought about that too, like, that's a really important part. I wonder how that. It ends with a psychedelic trip where he sees, he looks down at his floor and the floor of the church is gravel and he sees blood coming through his feet. That's also the teaser at the beginning. 

Lorien: Okay. I mean, I like the personal story that you have, because then I'm like, oh my god, this is based on something real. But then, what does he want in the pilot, right? Is it that he's picking up his brother from the hospital, and he's got to keep his mom away, but he can't pay for it, so he has to try to get this job.

So shit, I have to go join the Mormon Church, and somehow keep all my friends who know I’m a ne'er do well, away, you know, that is–

Meg: The two worlds.

Lorien: Yeah keep the two worlds away. And then he has to go through these steps to try to get in. Or he's already making those moves, like you said, he's in the church. But he can't let anyone know what his mom did to his little brother. So that, I know you've already written the pilot. But just so it's–

Adam: Writing, rewriting. 

Lorien: To simplify, there is a tendency to put the whole season in the pilot. Which I've done. It's fine. Don't worry about it. So because you have all these great thematic ideas, and all this wonderful work you've done, but it is about that want and the plot.

And why am I going to want to watch episode two? Like, Breaking Bad, oh shit, how deep is this guy going to go? 

Meg: Well and the other trick is, the plot is not the mom. The mom is the motive for the money. So what's the plot of the pilot? What is the plot of the pilot? 

Adam: Like, what's the story? 

Meg: The plot of the pilot.

Lorien: What does he want? 

Meg: What's the–

Adam: Oh, he wants that promotion in the pilot, like–

Meg: So I have to get, so the plot of the pilot–

Adam: He does so many, he jumps over so many hoops at work to try to get this thing.

Meg: So he plot of the pilot is get into the cult 

Adam: Yeah. No, to get a promotion The cult is what he's gotta do. But he's doing stuff at work too. He's like, quoting the bible He's doing all these projects for Mr. Dan.

Meg: Right, but this is where I'm saying. So right now, and I say this with admiration, it feels like a novel, right? It's deep and going in many different directions, and it's a lot internal. 

Adam: Yeah.

Meg: Right. Versus I'm going to tell you a pilot of a guy who wants to get a promotion, so he goes into his boss's cult, and by the end of the first, you know, the first episode, he's in. And now he's wondering, maybe, was this a good idea? I'm not sure if this was a good idea.

Adam: I should have stopped at like the first two sentences. 

Meg: No, but I'm saying, like, that, I understand, that's the plot of the pilot, and the show's going to be, oh my god, I have two worlds, I have to keep them separate. And I kind of like the cult, but I kind of don't and all the stuff that's happening to him. That's the show. Right. 

And then all the other world building and emotional stuff is the subtext and the drive and, but people are listening for the show. Right. You could also do a show about a town. 

Adam: I like that idea too. 

Meg: Just by the way. 

Adam: My town is only 7, 000 people. Even before, there was no social media when I grew up. But people two towns over knew when I was, what I was doing. 

Lorien: Yes, no, I was there. I grew up in that same town. Yes. But what I've been hearing you say is that there's these two worlds, because that's what you were talking about. 

Adam: Yes. 

Lorien: Like, I was kicked out, but I still went, and where do I fit in, and where's my place, and he has his friends, and then there's the church, and so I think that is the, where do I belong? Do I get to decide, or is someone else deciding? 

Meg: I personally think, and this is just, again, you've written it. But just in the verbal pitch, the dead brother and the mom is actually like an anchor on the idea. 

Adam: In what way? What do you mean? 

Meg: It's taking up a lot of room. 

Adam: Got it. 

Meg: It's taking up a lot of emotional space. It's taking up a lot of what you think is plot, but it's not the show. 

Adam: Nice, yeah. 

Meg: It's why it feels like a novel, or maybe even a feature, but a show is about a very active thing that's ticking off. And I'm tuning in either because there's a mystery, like in Fleabag it seems like it's just her and her parents and, but there's a huge mystery about what happened, and what happened to her girlfriend, and oh my god, that she died. How did she, they're just unraveling this mystery slowly through the show. So you're really kind of tuning in for that, right? And she's not letting you in. 

So you got to find that ticking, propulsive thing that's gonna keep me to tune in each week. That's really what they want to know when you pitch a TV show. All the other emotional stuff, that's great. But if they feel it's like, do you need that? Like, that's a lot, that's a weight coming into the show, right?

Lorien: So he goes in for a job interview. They think he's a Mormon. 

Adam: He's not a Mormon in the show.

Lorien: Oh, sorry, a cult. He goes in for the job interview. He randomly says things that they interpret as, oh, you're in the cult so you get the job, and now he has to, that's the half hour version. 

Adam: No, that's really helpful. I'm complicating it too much. 

Meg: You might be over complicating it. And here's why sometimes our brains do that. And by the way, it might be totally right. I don't know. I haven't read it. So just take all this with a grain of salt. 

Adam: You are welcome to, anytime you want. 

Meg: I would but. 

Lorien: Nicely done.

Meg: My husband would kill me.

Adam: I tried last year. She told me that I couldn't. 

Meg: My husband would kill me. He's like, you know, we have to write. Sometimes, and again, sometimes this is a really good thing, and sometimes it becomes too many things in a, in the pie. So, the only way you'll know is you have to get honest with yourself, or any writer has to get honest with themselves. 

So, I'm guessing that the child who's run over by the car, there is a part of you that, that has that child inside of you, right? You did get run over by a car, right? So, it, that child is trying to come up and talk. It's trying to get in the story. Right. 

But I don't know that this is its story. Do you know what I'm saying? The adult is trying to tell his story about that stuff of, why do I still go? Right? 

Adam: Yeah. 

Meg: And I'm getting something emotionally out of this, and, but I don't even belong here, and they wouldn't even like me, if they knew who I really was. That's all so rich. All of that is so rich, and it's current, like, adult questions. Right? So, I'm not saying that the kid doesn't belong in there, and I'm sure it wants to be in there, because it wants its story told. 

But I just, my gut is it's two different things, maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. 

Adam: I trust your opinion.

Meg: Just think about it. Just think about it. Just think about it. Again, I haven't read it, but okay, anything else? 

Lorien: Good luck?

Adam: Thank you.

Meg: You did good.

And I should, we should say, we get so quick, we have to go so fast, and we get so into wanting to help you that we always forget we're terrible. I think it's really good. I think it's super rich. And I really want you to make it. I think it's really valuable. 

Lorien: I think that that's true of all the pitchers who came up. And it is, it's some, we haven't read it. We don't know you. And so it can feel like we're attacking you a little bit. That's not, so if you can listen to it afterwards, and listen to the questions we're asking you, and that it is not about you, or the work that you've already done on it. It's very much like, think about these things.

And sometimes we ask good questions, and sometimes we don't. So, it's just like, this is what we think might be a good place to start. And we get very into it, and we get very intense, and we talk with each other as much as we're talking to you, too. So just be, we respect that you come up here a lot. I don't know that I would volunteer to do this, so.

Meg: Thank you guys.