228 | The Screenwriting Life: Joy, Pain, & Legacy (TSL 2024 Supercut, Pt. 1)

At the end of every episode, we ask our guests the Three Big Questions: What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? What pisses you off? What advice would you give to your younger self?

Today's supercut captures the heartfelt answers from TSL guests over the past year.

Part 2, coming soon!

GUESTS FEATURED:

1:04 - Charlotte Stoudt (Ep 164)

7:24 - Tom McCarthy (Ep 169)

12:24 - Paco de Leon (Ep 172)

15:38 - Adam Grant (Ep 173)

26:04 - Jodie Foster (Ep 174)

31:22 - Michael Arndt (Ep 176)

34:16 - Celine Song (Ep 177)

41:12 - David Hemingson (Ep 178)

45:24 - Elizabeth Hargrave (Ep 180)

50:06 - Lloyd Taylor (Ep 181)

53:38 - Dave Mullins, Brad Booker, & Sean Ono Lennon (Ep 182)

1:09:43 - Jennifer Deaton (Ep 184)

1:17:38 - Cole Haddon (Ep 185)

1:22:43 - Jeff Melvoin (Ep 186)

1:26:28 - Debby Wolfe (Ep 187)

1:29:29 - Octavio Solis (Ep 188)

1:37:32 - Carole Kirschner (Ep 189)

1:42:34 - Navid McIIhargey (Ep 190)

1:47:00 - Linda Seger (Ep 191)

1:52:35 - Billy Mernit (Ep 194)

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey, TSL-ers producer Jeff Graham here, and I hope you are having a wonderful, restful holiday with people you love. If you're a longtime fan of the show, you know that we sometimes release super cut compilations of our guests. And our tradition lately has been to take those final three questions we always ask and compile them into a supercut.

What I love about these episodes is it's kind of like a concentrated adrenaline shot of amazing advice from brilliant professionals. So, this is one of two supercuts that we'll be releasing. We haven't done these in a while, so we have a pretty exciting backlog of incredible advice from our guests.

If you are wondering who is speaking, I have time coded the guests names. It's in the description below, so just refer to that and you can figure out who is being interviewed and what episode they originally came from. But for now, just sit back, relax, and enjoy this brilliant wisdom. 

Before we jump in, I do want to thank our interns, Claudine and Mickey, who did the hard work of compiling all of these clips for me. Thank you to both of you. You did a wonderful job this semester. And without further ado, enjoy this compilation. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? 

Charlotte Stoudt: I would say one other writers, which I've already spoken about, but I think anytime you're writing a scene and your unconscious gifts you with an idea or a line or a turn or something.

Meg: I love that too. 

Charlotte Stoudt: Thank you unconscious for helping me out. Sometimes it's just dead quiet for days, you know, but the few times where you go, Oh, And it almost doesn't feel like it's coming from you. You know, you just feel like the universe is like, go this way. 

Meg: And, but it came because you stayed and kept asking. You kept, you're right. Like... 

Charlotte Stoudt: That is, I agree. Like Joan Shekel, you know, her mantra, like the craft is to stay. The craft is to stay. I must say that to myself 4, 000 times a week. The craft is to stay. 

Lorien: I had that happen today when I was working on a pitch, there was something not quite clicking with it. And so I opened it and I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote.

And then I was like, Oh my God, I figured it out. Oh my god, I figured it out. It was very exciting. 

Charlotte Stoudt: It is, it's a high you chase, right? You get it once in your life, oh. 

Lorien: I'm not going to reread it until tomorrow to make sure that it's-- 

Meg: Yeah, don't. Don't. 

Lorien: But for now, it was magic. The line, the one line I came up with that I wrote, and I was like, oh my god, that was it!

That was it! And I saved it real quick and filed it. Just for now. 

Charlotte Stoudt: Totally relate. Totally. 

Lorien: So the second question is, what pisses you off about writing and or showrunning? 

Charlotte Stoudt: I think this is just part of my temperament, but I find it hard to do anything else while I'm showrunning or even think about anything else. I kind of am a one thing at a time person. So I think other people occasionally suffer from the fact that I just can't have any other thoughts. Except about the show.

And I'm always like, I want to feel at the end. There's nothing more I could have done. So whatever it is, I can just be like, well, the world thought this or that, but I could not have done anything else. That's like the only way I can kind of live with the work, you know, they take it out of your hands. I love that.

Lorien: We can include this in the show or not, but I had that experience and, but I was so exhausted at the end. Like I was so fully I felt guilty that I hadn't been able to write anything else, like all the guilt and the beating myself up. I felt, you know, like I'd neglected all these relationships, I'd neglected all these projects, so I had all that sort of looming.

But I was so horribly exhausted. Yes, I'd given everything, there was nothing else I could have done, which I feel really good about. But it took me so long to recover from it. How do you manage that? Or do you? Or have I just laid out what actually happens to every showrunner? 

Charlotte Stoudt: I think you do. You do. By the end, you're, you're pretty drained. But then I think that, the joy of that is like, by the time you've really written the last, you know, end of episode for, for your last episode, then I think you're revived again by edit, by editorial and post.

And it's a new set of people. And I also just love editors. So I think you're really buoyed by that because you're seeing it come together and even in the editorial room, you're like, I don't have to shoot anything anymore. , you know, mostly you might do a research. 

Lorien: It's like a puzzle in post. 

Charlotte Stoudt: You're like, oh my God, I'm in the edit room, it's over . I don't have to go to set. You know, I mean, set is great, but yes, it beats, it beats you up after a while. I'm so impressed with crew members. I don't know how they do it. So there's sort of a new thing to sort of, to draw you, you know, forward I think, and you're like, oh, it's a new set of problems. We'll stay again, you know. 

Jeff: There is kind of like a distinct relief when you get to post, like whether or not you got everything you needed, you're kind of like, Oh, production is done. Like the big expensive chunk, you know, no matter what you have. So I totally relate to that. Charlotte, the last question we always ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, sort of like right before her big break if that is even a real thing what would you tell that Charlotte, what advice would you give?

Charlotte Stoudt: And such a good question. I think as a young writer, like in my teens, I would have said, it's okay that you're not going to be very good for a really long time. Trust that you have something to say. You just don't know quite how to say it yet. And I wish I could have heard that as a teenager. I think I thought, Oh, I, if I can't, you know, If I can't write like Chekhov, I should just stop, you know, and that's just so silly.

That's just not helpful. So I guess it's more that like that, that you very younger self. I think by the time I came out here, it was a little older and I still didn't know anything about TV writing, but I had more self, you know, to withstand all the knocking around that happens in the town. 

Lorien: I think I need to hear that every time I start a new script.

Charlotte Stoudt: I know, right? 

Lorien: It's a, it's not going to be as good as you want it to be right off the bat, but just. Write it, stay in it, keep going, waiting for that magic moment. But that blank page always makes me feel like. I, I've made terrible mistakes to get where I, 

Charlotte Stoudt: I do understand that. I think like screenwriting is a whole different kettle of fish, you know, I, I have such respect for people who can just sit in a room by themselves and crank out 120 pages. It's amazing. 

Lorien: No, I like, I like the room. I like, I like both. For different reasons, right? 

Meg: I like whichever one I'm not in. 

Lorien: I like whichever one is paying me. If you're paying me, I love it. 

Meg: Charlotte, thank you so much for being on the show. By the way, my favorite thing that I'm going to take from today is spicy questions.

I love that. Spicy questions. What are the spicy questions? So many wonderful things, but that is particularly, I love that phrase. 

Lorien: Thank you so much. Super inspiring. 

Charlotte Stoudt: It's really fun to hang out with you. I really appreciate it. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing and or directing?

Tom McCarthy: Just really being in the pocket, regardless of where I am in on the process and just know that I'm just making something like I'm in it. Wherever I am, whether I'm in the writing stage, I'm committed to it. I'm fully in. I don't like being between projects. Even from the early stages of research or the final stages of editing, just being in that pocket, I feel most at peace.

Meg: I love that. 

Lorien: Nice. What pisses you off

Tom McCarthy: About the work? About the work or about, yeah. I mean about the world. About other people? No, about the world. 

Lorien: Sorry. About writing or directing. 

Tom McCarthy: What pisses me off? Hmm, that's a great question. I don't know. What comes to mind, and maybe I, is carelessness. Carelessness. In my own work in the people I collaborate with.

If there's a carelessness, because it, it feels like you don't care. And if you don't care, go do something else. This is too hard and it takes too much work and effort. And there's enough people out there that do care. And I think it's the only way to make anything really decent. So there, if there's a carelessness that I sense field leads as all kinds of roots, 

Meg: Yes, yes, a hundred percent.

Jeff: I love that. And then, it's funny, Tom, I'm picturing you right before Station Agent in Sidney Lumet's office, and this is kind of what this final question is about, but if you could go back in time and have a coffee with your younger self, sort of before your big career, what advice would you give that Tom?

Tom McCarthy: I don't know. You know, I feel like the journey has been for me such a kind of stumbling pitch. You know, I didn't plan a lot of this. I feel like some people are better at planning out their lives and careers than maybe I was. It was. It was a constant exploration. I do remember my father, who is no longer alive, he was a businessman, and he worked in New York City, and where I was living when I just started, got out of Yale, started to become a writer, an actor, and a writer, and ultimately a director.

And I have these lunches with him, and he would say things to me like, are you networking? And I was in the throes of my young artistic life, right? And I was like, ah, you don't network! You don't network! You just got to work and you got to find, and I just, I couldn't hear it, you know, and looking back, I think I could have done more than that.

And I don't mean in terms of forwarding my career, I don't mean that I mean in like seeking out creative connections, finding artists whose work I just enjoy. I'm still not as good as I should be, but finding artists whose work. And there's so many people out there who probably, well, I wish I could tell how much I enjoy, and I probably could. I do a better job of it. And every time that happens, I form a bond. And those bonds feed me so much. My friend community, I'm a real, I'm very connected to my family, but I'm very connected to my friends. And I think building a creative circle of friends that you really trust and admire is hugely important.

And I think if I took my dad's note and got, and, and like looked beyond the language I would have been better off for it. 

Meg: So good. We're so into community. That is our rudder and theme of this show is community. 

Tom McCarthy: I think that's the great thing about the show. I love that you guys do and it feels very pure and honest and open and a wonderful place to come. I'm normally terrified of these things. I just, I just I'm really cautious about talking about process. I don't know why sometimes when I'm in it, I don't like to talk about it, you know, because it makes me self conscious in a way. But you know, my wife and I would find ourselves, you know, in the mix, I reached out, like talking about your show and things that came up and she would have these discussions.

And so here we are.

Meg: Hey everyone. We wanted to let you know about a special holiday deal for TSL workshops, our membership community from now until January 1st, we're offering a five day free trial, plus 50 percent off your first three months of TSL workshops using the code holiday, 24 H O L I D A Y 24. If you didn't know, TSL Workshops is a community that offers twice a month live workshops with us in addition to a series of premium workshops with some of our favorite industry experts like story consultant Pat Verducci and producer Sheila Hanahan Taylor.

Lorien: We want to meet you, so come on over by clicking the link in the description below and using the discount code HOLIDAY24. We'll see you soon. Happy Holidays!

Meg: We always end every podcast with the same three questions. So I'll start. What brings you the most joy? When it comes to working with finances or creative people and finances, what brings you the most joy?

Paco de Leon: When kind of like what Jeff just said, when they have this little aha moment where something like clicks in their brain and they just feel less, you know, worried or scared or nervous and they feel empowered and energetic and excited. 

Meg: Love it. 

Lorien: So same topic. What pisses you off about being someone who works with creatives and finances?

Paco de Leon: It really pisses me off when I see somebody who just doesn't really value their work and their worth in the world. And it pisses me off when I can see a lot of that is internalized narratives that maybe they just absorbed from media, from parents not supporting them. I don't like to see somebody who's lacking confidence in the financial arena.

That really pisses me off when they don't have that sense of confidence. So I think that really drives a lot of my work. 

Jeff: Good answer. Okay. Paco picture you're in your car during rush hour traffic, and you look out the window and you see Paco on her bike, sweating and panicking as she's trying to get to her job.

You roll down the window. What piece of advice do you today, Paco give to that 24 year old Paco on her bike in rush hour traffic? 

Paco de Leon: Heal your wounds. 

Jeff: That's great. Beautiful. 

Lorien: That's great. And super easy. No problem. 

Paco de Leon: In just two hours or less for a small price of 16. 99. 

Lorien: And then 24 year old you, 24 year old you goes, Oh yeah, totally, on it. So easy. Thank you so much. 

Meg: What I love about it is if everybody today just did the one thing she said, which is weekly sit down with your finances for just a half an hour, it will start to move. It will start to bring up the wounds. Yes, it will. But now you know what you're dealing with. Right? The, the kind of push it aside isn't going to help you deal with your wounds.

They're not going anywhere. They're actually working and creating, like you said, narratives that you don't even know you're acting on. So I think the simplest things can help you start on that. 

Lorien: And I really like what you said about you broke it down into these very simple steps, right? Look, get your passwords.

Look at that one credit card bill. And I think that's so parallel to our careers as writing when we're working on a script. We're not just going to sit down and solve the whole financial crisis of our being. We're not just going to sit down and like generate this amazing, brilliant script. It takes little steps.

Right? Break down your character. How up do you think your character is? What are they mad about? What are they happy about? Right? Like each time you sit down, you're just taking a little step further into the project so that at some point you start to have those little aha moments along the way. But it's about patience and doing the reps and doing the work.

Meg: And being present with yourself. That is actually the work between writing and finances, just to be present with yourself. 

What brings you the most joy when it comes to your work? 

Adam Grant: Ooh, that's a good question. There's so many things. It's hard to pick one. It's like choosing a favorite child, Meg. How could you do this to me?

Meg: Yeah, you just have to. Sorry. 

Adam Grant: And, and you have to choose the middle child because they always get neglected. 

Meg: I am the middle child, so thank you for that. 

Adam Grant: Anytime. You were a footnote in a previous book. So, trying to elevate. Let's see. I think, I don't know, I think the most, well can I differentiate between can I differentiate between joy and pride?

Meg: Absolutely. 

Adam Grant: For me the most joy is, It's the, the aha moment when I realize what a book or a chapter is about. And you know, sometimes it's a big idea. Sometimes it's a, Oh, that's what I'm trying to say. But that, that Eureka just, it feels like I've, I've grown in that moment. And that I think is intoxicating.

I think that what, what I feel proudest of is when it's not quite as, it's not as exuberant, but it lasts longer is the satisfaction of. I guess it's, it's, it's, what's most gratifying ultimately brings me the most lasting joy. Yeah, I want to say this differently. Okay, so there, there are two kinds of joy that I get from my work.

And one is the, like the euphoric high of, I just figured out what the book is about or what I'm trying to say in this chapter. And that, that is kind of peak experience in the moment, but it's fleeting. And usually it's. I wake up the next morning and I'm like, well, what have I done today? Nothing. The lasting joy is, I think, in the gratification of producing a book that was the best I could create at that time in my life on this topic.

That somebody reached out and said, this mattered to me. I learned something about myself. I made a choice that I wouldn't have made. I helped somebody else. I think, yeah, I guess discovery is my immediate rush of joy and impact is where I get lasting joy and also meaning. Amazing. Amazing. All right.

Lorien: I'm going to bring it down a little with this next question, which is what pisses you off about your work? 

Adam Grant: Besides editing and story finding. 

Lorien: Also, I do love that in the, Nevermind. Go ahead. 

Adam Grant: No, tell me. 

Lorien: Oh, well, we won't put this on the show, but I love that you edited your answer. 

Adam Grant: Oh, you can put that on the show. I don't care. 

Lorien: I mean, you, you said, I hate doing this and then you did it beautifully. 

Adam Grant: Well, I, I don't mind verbal editing because in that moment, I feel like there's a beneficiary, maybe, maybe that's part of what's missing. You know, I should learn lessons from my own research. My, my first experiments in grad school showed that people worked harder, smarter, and more effectively when they met the person who was ultimately going to benefit from their work.

And if I had, if I had a reader sitting next to me or in the Google doc, as I wrote, I would be much more into the meaning of editing. I would see the purpose more clearly. 

Meg: Oh wow, that's amazing. 

Adam Grant: I'm going to try this experiment next. Okay, thank you for that. That's a, that's a little nugget I was not prepared for.

Lorien: I mean, you're welcome. 

Adam Grant: You, you set that up perfectly. What pisses me off? What pisses me off? I don't know. I, I don't, I don't get mad very often. I get frustrated when I have a goal that I'm blocked from achieving. I get pissed off when I feel like people critique things in bad faith. So there was a review of Hidden Potential where I thought it was a lovely review, but there was something that was factually incorrect.

Like, the, the reviewer missed a sentence that changed the meaning of everything. And I was pissed off. And then I was like, well, why am I pissed off? I feel like I'm being misunderstood. There's No review is gonna be uncritical you, you look like a Pollyanna as a reviewer if you just rave about a book or or any project.

So why does it bother me that the criticism was inaccurate as opposed to accurate? Because I feel misre misrepresented. And also I think the reader might, you know, take away the wrong lesson. But who remembers the content of the reviews they read? Eh, okay. It also bothers me 'cause I didn't learn anything from the review.

And I thought that for me, the definition of a good critique is I, as the writer, I'm going to get better from it. And I cannot tell you how many times the next book has benefited from one of the toughest reviews. So I'm pissed off because this reviewer did me a disservice. You jerk. Like, how could you get that wrong?

You could have said something else that I could have actually benefited from. So guess what I did to not be pissed off. I emailed the reviewer. And said I appreciate your review. I thought, you know, the following was, you know, thoughtful, balanced, et cetera. I was confused by this because I actually said this and the person came back and said, I'm sorry, I owe you a drink.

And then I said, what else can I do better? And I got. Better suggestions. And so it was a good lesson for me that I guess when criticism pisses you off, I, if you deem the person worthy of learning from, which I did that it doesn't have to end there. And that person was worth getting drinks with, I guess, is the moral of this story.

Meg: So good. 

Adam Grant: That was a really long answer. You can cut it off. 

Meg: No, my God. You're I'm, I'm, I'm wrapped. Yes. Yes. 

Jeff: Then the last question we ask, I'm speaking of feedback. If you could have a drink with your younger self and I, I don't, when I say younger self, you've had such a full career, but maybe before the publication of your first book, or before you dove into the exercise of writing your first book, what would you tell that Adam knowing what you know now after having written five?

Adam Grant: How many hours do you have? 

Jeff: As much as, as long as you want to go, we're, we're lucky to have you. 

Adam Grant: Jeff, I have a, I have a lot of comments. A lot of notes. So I'm 42. I guess I started writing my first book 12 years ago. So I was, I was 30. Actually no, I was 29. It was it was the spring. So before I turned 30, so if I were having, if I were sitting down with my 29 year old self, what would I say?

Number one, I would say, don't stick to your core expertise. You know, there's a lot of stay in your lane advice that people get. And. I think that that can lead people to be too narrow, like, it's similar to write what you know. Well, if you only write what you know, how do you ever grow? You don't. You don't ever find out about things that are outside of your experience.

And I, I think I made that mistake especially early on as a writer. Like, I, I only, I tried to primarily write about things that I had my own research on. I'm an organizational psychologist, so I focus my writing on the workplace. Well, I can read other people's research as well as, certainly, hopefully as well as a journalist does.

I can synthesize, you know, a field looking at a topic like generosity in parenting or in marriage, just like I can, you know, in a work team. So, I would, I would definitely say don't be so narrow. Think about how the ideas that you're interested in apply to many different spheres of life and many different kinds of people.

I think I was reluctant to take, like, to tackle gender differences, for example, because I was like, well, I've never, like, I've, I've never been a woman, don't know what that's like, not my place. I'm like, well, it's my job to read the research and, you know, and synthesize what we know. So that would be a big note.

I think another note would be, yeah, I guess I really I really struggled with the The early, like, the beginnings of the first drafts, because it felt like there was so much pressure on them. And you know that not only is it going to get read more, but it's also going to determine whether people keep reading.

And a lot of people will say to that, begin with the end in mind. And I think I would edit that a little bit and say, actually begin with the end. I would tell myself to write the conclusion first and work backward. Because I think in writing the conclusion, I often, in the early books, I would go back and say, Oh, that's what this book is about.

And now I know what the opening is supposed to do. Maybe sometimes I would've had to write the whole book to get there. But I think in a lot of cases, if I just wrote the conclusion, it would help me clarify the starting point. And sometimes I actually, in one case, I took, I like the conclusion so much. I just took it out, brought it to the intro.

I'm like, this is the most important thing to say, to say, don't leave it until the end. I would give myself that advice. And then I think the, the one other thing that I would say is, I would say be much more thoughtful about topic choice. When I First book it was obviously, I'm gonna write about the thing that I've been studying my whole career.

Givers and takers, no brainer. After that, I'm gonna write about whatever interests me. And I think that was short sighted. Interest was not enough. Just because it was interesting to me doesn't mean it was important to other people. So I needed to draw that Venn diagram. of not just, is this an idea I wake up in the morning excited about and I go to bed thinking about and I would talk to somebody who's not even in my field about it because I, I just think it's like, it's so fascinating, but also is it important enough if people, you know, if I could write the definitive book on this topic would the world be a better place?

Would people benefit tremendously? And then I needed a third circle in that Venn diagram that was not on my radar at all. Which has only come on in the last couple of books. Which is, do I have something distinctive to say about this? There are a lot of topics that I think are interesting to me and important to everyone else, but I don't feel like I have novel value to add. And I think it's in the center of that trio.

Meg: What brings you the most joy in your creative process of being a director and or actor? 

Jodie Foster: You know what's crazy is, is you do this thing that's hard, but you do it with these people. You do it with 125 people. And we are all there in the middle of the night in the freezing cold with our, you know, dumb REI outfits on and our hot, hot pads on our shoes.

And we're not, you know, the boom guy's not holding a boom because that's all he ever wanted to do was hold a stick. You know, he's holding it because he wants to be a part of something meaningful. And when you're there with all those people, you're creating this meaningful thing in a context with a group like, like a, like a summer camp.

And it's a once in It only happens once. That moment only happens once, and you can't recreate that context. You know, Inuritu said to me, a whole bunch of people got a thing, and he got an award, and he said, what's crazy about this award for her, man, is that it's like me and my wife made love, and she got pregnant, and we had a baby, and now everybody's going like, Congratulations, you made this amazing baby.

And he's like, I didn't do anything. I just had sex with my wife. And yes, that was a great moment. And it was amazing and truthful and beautiful, but like, I'm not responsible for what came out of this moment of truth. And I guess that's what I like the most about the creative process. 

Lorien: Okay. The second question is, What pisses you off about your life as a creative?

Jodie Foster: Well, you know, you're probably gonna try and give me a pep talk and tell me I shouldn't feel this way, but 

Meg: No, never. 

Jodie Foster: I feel really mad at myself and really, like, it doesn't go away that I feel that I was given all of these amazing opportunities. that I was either too lazy to pursue, or I didn't do it, or I was just too busy doing something else that didn't end up even being fulfilling.

I watched all of these opportunities that were given to me, and I don't even know why they were given to me. They were given to me because, who knows, maybe they were given to me because I had, you know, White skin or blonde hair or I had a great education or a whole bunch of privileges, but I still look back on 'em now and think like, why didn't I do that thing?

Why didn't I call that guy back? Or, you know, he offered for me to do this thing and I didn't do it. And I do feel like sometimes like I didn't live up to the promise that my mom had for me or that I had for myself that I know. That's crazy. 'cause I did a lot of stuff. But, I'm still tortured by the, by all the promise that I didn't fulfill.

Meg: We say yet. Of course, I would talk you out of that, but there's still a yet. 

Lorien: Really resonates. I think as you get older, and you start to catalog all the missed. Things because you, I mean, for me, this is not a pep talk, but like, I didn't know it was an opportunity at the time. I wasn't ready to take it on.

Like, why didn't I call that guy back at the time? I thought he was just calling me as a pity or who even is that? Like three years later, I'm like, Oh my God, I just realized who that is and what that meant. And, you know, so it's, part of it is I just didn't know, or I wasn't ready or, you know, I would have failed anyway.

Or, you know, like, you know, so part of it is that, but then, you know, I, I am on this journey of, you know, Totally. I'm on a journey. Yeah. So not to talk you out of it, but like just in my own experience, I think probably a lot of our listeners to like, some of it's just ignorance. We just didn't know. 

Jodie Foster: Yeah. And look, those opportunities get less and less as you get older, you know, there aren't as many people out there who wanted to discover the great young, whatever, right? So you, you turn a certain age and there are, there isn't a platter full of donuts that are being passed to you all the time. 

Jeff: And the last question we have, Jodie, is if you could go back and, you know, have a coffee with your younger self and you started your career so young, this will be an interesting answer, I'm sure for you, but what advice would you give that Jodie?

Jodie Foster: Yeah, I don't know if that it's so much about career. I think it was more about personality. I think that I could say no and that I had the freedom to decide what I wanted to do. Like this new generation of young people have an understanding of that, that they can say no, that they can say that feels uncomfortable, or I don't want to in my heart, or that isn't my instinct.

Or I guess I, I thought as a, a woman in the sixties growing up, I thought I had to make. Everybody feel good. And I had to make men not feel bad. And I had to say yes to things that I didn't want to do. And I just wish I knew that I had a choice, 

Meg: But to wrap it up now you've been on the show before so I won't ask you all three questions, but there, I think we added a question since the last time you were here. So I am going to ask you that question. 

Michael Arndt: Oh God. Okay. 

Meg: Which is if you could have coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give to that young Michael? 

Michael Arndt: I think that, and I think I said this actually last, last time I was on your show, which was budget 20 drafts of anything that you're going to write.

I think that I, I said this last time, I used to torture myself by always trying to have the next draft that I wrote be the last draft. of the movie. And I think that it just becomes very discouraging and disappointing if you try to solve all your problems with each, with each draft. And it's, it's, as you said, it's a process.

It's a process of getting deeper, deeper layers and you can't solve every problem all at once. It's just sort of, you're setting yourself for an impossible task. So I don't know. That's very, that, that's not very inspirational. That's a very sort of nuts and bolts answer to your question. But. Yeah. It would have saved me a lot of, it just would have saved me a lot of angst basically to, to go, because I always just go three drafts is it finished? Four drafts. Is it finished? Five drafts. Is it finished? And I think that that and maybe, maybe, maybe you can do it. Like maybe you, you get five drafts in and you've written the perfect screenplay, you know, and you don't need, and maybe, you know, a lot of times if your story is very simple, like if you're not trying to do too much of your story and there's not too many moving parts, maybe you can do three, four, five drafts.

And that's going to be enough. I mean, you know, for Little Miss Sunshine, I did 100 drafts, you know, of that script. For the, for that opening scene in Toy Story 3, we did 60 drafts of the, of just that one opening scene. So, anyway, that's the advice I would give, is be patient with the process and, 

Meg: Be patient with the process and yourself, that you're not 

Michael Arndt: The truth of your story 

Meg: That's, that is the process people think it's them. And I'm like, no, it's not you. It's not some proof of that you're a writer or not. 

Michael Arndt: Well, here, I guess my one analogy, I have a gazillion analogies for writing, but one writing, one analogy for trying to write an original screenplay is that it's like trying to wrestle like an 800 pound gorilla.

Like if you get defeated, there's no shame in it because what you were trying to do was just completely crazy and unrealistic from the beginning. 

Meg: It is so unrealistic and yet fun and we keep doing it. 

Michael Arndt: Yeah, you know what? You need allies. That was, that's another thing I would tell myself. You need allies.

And I think that when I wrote Little Miss Sunshine, I was a real prickly pair. I was really, I was just like, everybody shut up and leave me alone and I'm going to write a great screenplay on my own. And I somehow managed to do it. But going to Pixar really opened my eyes up to how. Helpful it is just to be around other writers and helping them and having them help you.

So that, that's, you know, that's a much better answer. Forget that other answer I gave. The better answer. 

Meg: Both good answers. 

Michael Arndt: You need allies though. You need people who are going to help you. That's what I would tell myself. 

Meg: There we are. See, it's the two halves. You got to work really hard and do a million drafts and have allies to help you. There we go. Theme of the day.

What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing? 

Celine Song: I think when the thing that I'm writing teaches me something that I didn't know, right? When I feel like I can only really go for something or, or believe in something if it is smarter than me. If the writing that I the thing that I'm working on is smarter than me, and I'm always just trying to keep up.

I think that's my favorite part. Like feeling like the thing that I'm writing is outrunning me and I have to run really fast to catch it. That's my favorite part. 

Meg: Yeah, I love it. 

Lorien: You're going to run onto a galloping horse and not 

Celine Song: Exactly. Exactly. Good. Like, where's the horse? Yeah, I know how to write it. Get on. Yeah, you know. 

Lorien: Okay. So the second question is what pisses you off about writing? 

Celine Song: That you know, I think that whenever it is concealing what it is, I think I get really upset. I'm just like, just like be open with me, you know, when it's unclear when it's feeling opaque. I think that's the hardest part when I feel like I think that there is something beyond the murky waters. Is there something beyond the fog?

But I haven't been able to get there yet. And you just keep walking and it's a slog, right? You keep walking and walking, wading through the mud, being like, I just know there's something at the end of it. I'm so annoyed that it's we're not there yet. And I hope it comes today, but it might come. Two months from now, right?

That's the feeling. 

Meg: Oh my god. I'm there. 

Lorien: Or you're lost in the jungle. 

Celine Song: Exactly. You're lost in the jungle. That's exactly. 

Jeff: It's so validating to hear you say that. Thank you for sharing. That's like just such a gift, such a gift to everyone listening. This will be especially interesting, this last question, Celine, because I feel like it kind of resonates with your movie, but the thing we always ask our guests is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, like kind of on the precipice of her big break, what would you tell that Celine?

And you can decide whatever your big break is because you've had plenty of success even before this film. 

Celine Song: I think I would tell her to relax a little bit because I think that I in general even though, even when I feel like I know it and when I feel like I think I have it or something, I think it is so easy for me to doubt because I think that I, and I think this is true about really so many of us writers, which I think is what's, you know, annoying and hard and stupid, but we have to accept it, which is like, there is a part of us that's a good student and a perfectionist.

Right. It's like, I want to get a hundred percent on my test. Right. And I think that's just, unfortunately, I think that is a natural part of so many of us writers because so much of the work is about showing up for it every day. So, and also showing up punctually and like, if you need to put in six hours that you have to show up and do that, which is all marks of a good student, of a punctual good student. And but the thing that we're doing is making art, which being a good student is not a great prerequisite for. So I think I'm always, so I think the part of me that is a good student and a good girl is always fighting against the part of me that knows that I can't follow the rules and I can't just do the thing that the whole world is expecting you to do it.

So it's always a kind of a contradiction. Like in that contradiction, the part of me that's a good student is always like really mad about it. And it's like really like anxious. I mean, this is what you were talking about, Meg. You're saying, you know, like saying, like, you want to do all the notes, right?

Because I mean, if it was an essay for your high school, like, of course, you would have to do it. You have to do it. But I think that's just, I think that's an occupational thing where I think it's like so many of us, the endurance to be a writer, which is, requires a lot of patience and a lot of sitting in things that you don't want to sit in.

It, as a result, I know most writers I know have the good student syndrome. And I think similarly, I think I really have one. So I would just tell her to relax a little bit because like, you know, she did what she could, and it's fine, and it's gonna be okay and if it's not okay, maybe if it's, if it's not something that's gonna happen right away, it's, it's okay because you still got to do the thing that you wanted to do, and it's okay.

Like, it's kind of a thing where I would just be like, girl, chill. Like that's what I would say to my younger self, like, girl, just like, chill out, like, please. You know, you could make that. You could make that your ringtone. So every time you get a text, he'll say, girl, chill in your own voice, please chill.

Like it's, yeah, you are okay. Like, it's fine, it's fine. It's not perfect. But I think that's the perfectionist us the wanting to get a yes, A plus, plus plus. Right? You're like, I'm like, I just wanna get it right. And you're like, listen, you will never do that because mm-hmm . Unfortunately, unlike you know, like whatever going to law school or something, it's not, it's not a linear path and it's, and a perfection is not what anybody shows up to a thing for. Right. Like nobody goes to the movie because of the, the perfectionism they come because they want to feel human. Right. They go to the opposite of perfectionism. Exactly. It's about the imperfect. It's about the imperfections.

And I think it's like, it's, it's that it's the thing of like, yeah, actually the people want to see. People wanna watch something that's a, a minus or a b plus, you know what I mean? , they don't want, they don't wanna watch something that is a plus, plus plus because it's, it's, it's oppressive to them, right?

It's not art. Right? 

Lorien: But I want the A plus plus plus. 

Celine Song: I know. I wanna, I know I wanna get the A plus. Plus plus for the. B plus thing that I made. You know what I mean? 

Meg: That's right. Well said. 

Celine Song: It's an addiction. That's right. That's like, that has imperfections. That has like has rough edges. That's meant to feel alive and human. I want to get a plus, plus plus plus plus for that. 

Meg: And you have, because you got nominated for it. 

Celine Song: So amazing. 

Meg: Which I believe is the A plus plus plus. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Meg: So good and incredibly well deserved. 

Celine Song: Thank you. 

Meg: And all, as all of the nominations and wish you got more, but amazing, amazing work. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Lorien: What brings you the most joy about your work? About writing? About being a writer? 

David Hemingson: When I write the words, the end. 

Lorien: I feel that, yeah. 

David Hemingson: You know, I think it's completing something for sure, but I think it's just, you know, the process, like, you know, talking to my imaginary friends, just like sitting around and trying to figure out, you know, how to tease something up because, you know, we're, we're as a species, stories are everything.

I mean, that's the Bible, that's the Talmud, that's the Torah, that's the Koran, you know, that's it's stories, it's, it's, it's us telling us, telling ourselves the story of ourselves, you know, and just being able to do that. Just the actual process of it, you know, and I'm sure a lot of writers feel this way and I'll just put it out there.

It's like a writer's not what you do, it's who you are, you know, and I feel like, so just being able to do it, just being allowed to do it quite honestly, Lauren, that's, that's what gives me the greatest, greatest happiness and, and, and writing the end. Yes, those two things. 

Lorien: And writing the end. And then getting the check on time. Just, just those really simple things. Okay, so the second question is what pisses you off about being a writer? 

David Hemingson: Um, the fact that when I open the fridge the answer's not in there. 

Lorien: It's not the bottom of a chips bag either, I have to say. 

David Hemingson: It's not the bottom of a bottle, it's not at the end of a joint, it's not the bottom of a chips bag. There's no sort of chemical solution. There's no culinary solution. It's, it's the process. But the weird thing is, if you surrender to the process, then it becomes a joyful thing. But it's, the process is at once maddening and joyous. I mean, I know we've talked about it over the past hour or so. It's like, you know, it's incredibly frustrating.

Sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes you don't know what it is. Sometimes you can't fix it. You can't figure it out. You know, as much as that pisses me off, and it's the thing that pisses me off the most, I also know it's part of the process, so I just have to go through it. 

Lorien: Ah, yeah, deep breath. All right, Jeff has a third question for you.

Jeff: The last one, David, is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, kind of like right on the precipice of his writing career, what would you say to that, David? 

David Hemingson: Don't chase do you have your Yellowstone? Don't, don't listen to people asking you to knock something off. I've done it. It never works. If you have, for example, a medical procedural that you really want to write, because you've got an interesting point of view, that's a subgenre, that will never go away. That's not, give me your Yellowstone, that's you saying, I want to paddle my fingers in the genre and I'm going to crush it in the genre.

But I have chased things for people and chase tone, especially not just not just topic, but tone in a way that has wasted my time in their time. So, you know, I would say to my younger self, you, you kind of know what the truth is, you know, you may have to do a fair amount of shouting at the computer and into the fridge, but you know, fundamentally, what the truth is, stick to that truth.

Don't let anybody tell you. Everybody's buying Spaceman show, you know, like, don't, you know, what's, what's our Yellowstone, like, what's our Modern Family? What's our this? What's our that? That doesn't work. Don't, don't chase it. There's no cheese. There's no cheese there. 

Lorien: I mean, it's good to remind ourselves of that as well, because it's, it's sometimes irresistible.

David Hemingson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

Lorien: You know, sometimes it's, you're a professional writer and somebody comes to you and you're like, okay, I could do that. And it, it feels easy. And it is not. 

David Hemingson: Yeah, you know, I've, I've taken money gigs before, you know, it's like do this and you'll get paid. I'm like, okay. The hardest thing is I don't think anybody sets out to make something bad and I don't think anybody sets out to not, not sort of land the plane.

But I find that the times that that's happened, it's invariably been when I have it. Yeah. Taking a money gig that answers the question, you know, what's your Yellowstone, whatever it is, right? If you can avoid it, sometimes you can't. And then you just do it. And that's cool too, because you know, the visa bill is due.

We all know that. But just as much as you can, just, just listen to yourself as much as you can. 

Lorien: That's great advice. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to designing games? 

Elizabeth Hargrave: I like the middle of the process. Where I kinda have a sense of what the game is going to be, but there's still a lot to work out. And, and so, like, I feel like I'm getting so much out of every playtest and every iteration because it's just moving forward so clearly in the right direction. 

Meg: I love that. Oh my gosh, we're the opposite. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: And then I love watching people watch, play my games when they come out. 

Meg: Oh, of course, people playing your games must be so cool, must be so cool. You and I are the complete opposite. I'm, when I'm in the middle and I still got so far to go, I'm like, oh my God, it's never gonna work. 

All right, go ahead, Savana. 

Savana: So what pisses you off about designing games? 

Elizabeth Hargrave: Pisses me off, huh I I hate participating in other people's playtests when it feels like they're not actually listening to feedback.

Meg: Oh, so good. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: When they're like doing a playtest because someone told them that they should playtest, but they don't actually want to hear anything that anybody has to say for them. 

Meg: That is the worst when you're giving notes and you're like, this person does not care anything that I'm saying. And I just spent all this time. And for our listeners, it's reading it and thinking about it and formulating things and you're not even listening. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: Right, right. I literally once at a playtest told someone to take out a notebook and start taking notes because they can't. Yeah. You're not, you're not actually taking any of this in. What's happening here?

Meg: God, it's so bad. 

Jeff: To bring up though, because I think emerging creatives are like, maybe if you're a little more green, what you want is to give your work to someone just so they can pat you on the head and say, good job. And I understand that instinct because I've been there. But that's not why you get notes and that's not why you play a test.

So I think it's such a good point to bring up, because I think back to myself, maybe even sending Meg work years ago when we first met. I'm cringing. I hope that wasn't me, Meg. 

Meg: I don't remember. So it couldn't have been. No, literally, like if you're reading someone's work or playing a game, you're putting a lot of your life energy and your time that you could have spent on your own things or I don't know, going to get a pizza with your friend.

And instead, you're giving someone your time and they're not even writing stuff down. Which is so insulting. It's just like, I don't, you know, I can remember it. So it's like, yeah, waiter, no, you can't remember that I said all of that. But yes, it's amazing. Go ahead, Jeff. 

Jeff: The last question we asked is if you could go back and have like a coffee with that Elizabeth, like right before she dove in to her first iteration of Wingspan, what would you tell her now that you have like a decade more of game design experience?

Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh my gosh, that's a really good question. I think it would probably be around what we were talking about in terms of separating yourself from your work in that early stage of like, you don't have to be nervous to show this to people. It's just, it's all gonna move forward. I was terrified. For a good chunk of the time.

Meg: But you did it anyways. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: But I did it anyway. 

Meg: And that's the difference. And everybody thinks that people who manifest are not terrified, but I am, so therefore I shouldn't. It's like, no, no, no. We're all terrified. Like, literally, the day I turned in these notes, this thing to the producers, my friend Annie was like, what is going on with you?

And I looked at her and I went, I'm terrified. And she was like, Oh, you, even you, you're terrified? Of course I'm terrified. Like, it's just part of the creative process. And you did it anyways. Elizabeth still did it. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: And I still get terrified about reviews coming out, like a couple weeks ago when, when we were supposed to get the first round of reviews for Undergroove before it went up on the Kickstarter, right?

I was snapping at my husband one evening and he was like, what is going on? I was like, Oh yeah, I'm really nervous right now. 

Meg: I love it. Yeah, you just have to admit it, right? And then, and then the person you're snapping at is like, Oh, I know it's okay. So great. 

Jeff: So relatable. 

Meg: Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here. I loved it. It's such a beautiful metaphor for us writers to see the creative process from a different angle, but it is the same. It's the same. It's beautiful. And what a beautiful, beautiful game you have created. 

Elizabeth Hargrave: Oh, thank you. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? 

Lloyd Taylor: Like I said, writing the end, the first time, because it means I've climbed the mountain once and, and, and I can probably do it again.

Meg: I love it. Yeah. 

Lorien: All right. So, what pisses you off about writing? 

Lloyd Taylor: Everything. Is that, is that fair? Is that bullshit? 

Lorien: I mean, I connect with your answer. Totally. 

Meg: The most. The most. 

Lloyd Taylor: Yeah. 

Jeff: Definitely. Lloyd, the last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self what advice would you give that Lloyd?

Lloyd Taylor: Fuckin go for it. 

Jeff: I love it. 

Lorien: That's a mug. That's a mug. Fuckin go for it. There you go. I'm very into merchandising. You know, I'm very into fashion. I love it. It's a mug. Fuckin go for it. I love it. 

Meg: What was, what was younger Lloyd doing that he wasn't fuckin going for? 

Lloyd Taylor: Well, younger Lloyd was terrified. I, I grew up in New York.

My dad was like a businessman, which I don't even, I don't even know if regular businessmen exist anymore. But he, he would like put on a suit and go to an office and then come back I'm back and briefcase like a square like card. Yeah. Okay, exactly. Yeah. And all my life. I knew I wanted to do something creative.

And I just didn't couldn't figure out how the hell I was make going to make a living. And it and my parents also couldn't figure it out. It terrified the hell out of them. So as I was like, as I graduated from college was trying to like birth my adult self into the world. I just fucking flailed. I flailed so hard for like 10 years.

And after 10 years, I was like, I guess I have to be a writer. And I wanted to be a writer the whole time. But I was so terrified that if I did it and sucked at it, then it couldn't have been the thing that I that I pointed out is the thing that I could have done. Yes. Right. Yes. Like, oh, well, I could have been a writer.

But for X, Y, Z, which was like, 

Meg: Keep the dream alive. That's right. Don't do it. 

Lloyd Taylor: And so I just would tell myself to fucking go for it and not listen to my parents. And God bless them. They They're worried and I'm having kids of my own. I'm like, don't be a writer. But, 

Lorien: oh, yeah. My daughter wants to be a director and I'm like, Oh, or, or you could be the paleontologist you wanted to be when you were five. We could do that. Right. 

Meg: And it just fucking go for it and be the writer to the to yourself too, right? Like you're just. Yeah. Try. 

Lloyd Taylor: Yeah. You have to. You have to. If you have to do it, you have to do it. There's no way around it. You know? Yeah. And, 

Lorien: I was just gonna say, what I was whining about at the top of the show is really, the answer is just fucking go for it. Fucking pick. Pick a pony. Pick what project I'm gonna work on today. Just start fucking doing anything instead of worrying so much about what I'm gonna do. Right? I have to just go for it. 

Meg: The overwhelm can be avoidance. Yeah. 

Lorien: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Whatever. Another therapy lesson for me on every damn show was like, okay, fine. I'll just go fucking write. Jesus Christ. Everybody. I know. 

Lloyd Taylor: I would, I would love for someone to give me a different answer than just write. 

Jeff: Maybe one day we'll get a guest who will say, just have a souffle and then all this, it'll all

Lorien: Go on vacation, spend, all your money. 

Meg: I literally, I need to hear it today too, because it's like going in circles and we just have to fucking right. You just have to. 

Lloyd Taylor: The only way through is through 

Meg: What makes you happiest? What is your favorite thing about being an artist? 

Sean Ono Lennon: I can go first. Yeah, that's interesting because I've, you know, it's, it's pretty simple for me. I really, really enjoy having made something. I mean, it's, it's such a high And I, you know, it's, it's almost probably on the verge of Pygmalion, meaning like you can get carried away where you're just like too excited about it, but that's why I make art is because I get real, I really, love the feeling of having completed something.

And I think I would say almost nothing gives me a sense of kind of confidence and self esteem and just a general sense of, of things are good in the world than having worked and completed something. So, you know, it doesn't necessarily even have to be art, but having, having, having spent the time and, and, and energy on, on achieving something and completing it. is, is an incredible feeling. And I think there's nothing else like it in life, to be honest. So I do love that about the creative process and work in general. Right. 

Brad Booker: For me, I would say it's it's the camaraderie it's. What we talked about earlier in the chemistry of this team, but, you know, look, we've all worked on films that we are not proud of.

And I think it, in those cases, it always goes back to the core of the people you're working with, that something's broken at a deeper level. And in my case, you know, I had an experience before this that led me to. that pushed me out off the ledge to, to jump, you know, without the parachute. And you know, for me, I, Dave and I talk about it, like, You know, you, you get older and you're at a point in your career where you start looking maybe at your career from the end back towards the middle.

And you know, you've only got X amount of projects left, so I'm not going to waste them working on projects that A, I'm not invested in and B more importantly, you know, the root, I think of happiness is human connection. And if you're not connecting with the people that you're working with every day, then it's, you probably shouldn't be doing it.

So for me, that's, it's, it's the people in that process of the daily. Cause it, the look I'm with Sean, I love creating something, but I've realized over the course of my career that. The getting to the end isn't as rewarding for me as the process itself and the journey to get there. 

Meg: Dave? 

Dave Mullins: Yeah, I'm pretty much in line with both these guys. I think in the beginning of my career, you know, beginning your career, you take a job or I'll speak for myself. I took a job in the order of project, money, people. And the older I've gotten, it's, people, people, because it's every, it's everything like the only reason why we feel any level of success with this film is because Brad and Sean and I worked so well together and then the people that we brought on, you know, Electoral League has a no assholes policy where I don't care how talented you are.

If you are a dick, this isn't the place for you because this is so filmmaking is so hard. It's so hard. Like you have to be surrounded by people that are going to support it. Cause invariably in every film that we do any project, I don't even care if you're just building shelves or whatever you're, you're endeavoring in, you're going to hit a part, a moment where it's so incredibly hard, you know, it's the, you know, dark heart of the night.

It's the belly of the beast, whatever you want to call it. And it's brutal. And if you're not surrounded by people that you can figure it out with, that will be kind of kind in those moments, then it's going to be awful because it's like, it's really easy to be nice to people when things are going well, but when things are going bad, you have to have had that relationship of kindness where you go like, okay, this is hard.

I've got some hard stuff. This isn't new. This is a process. We know it's going to happen. So for me, same thing. It's like, it's people like, that's the thing that makes me the happiest. Cause I know if I'm surrounded with great people, the film's going to end up being great. 

Meg: All right, Lorien. 

Lorien: All right. I got the second question was, is what pisses you off about being an artist? Dave, that's not your turn yet. Let Sean go. 

Dave Mullins: How long do we have? 

Meg: Yeah. Just don't. Yeah. 

Sean Ono Lennon: Well, you know, I mean, I this is, I don't, I mean, I'll be honest, but I also want to say it with the caveat that I know that there are. Much bigger problems that people can have in life, of course, but I do feel like there was a time when there was more reverence for art and artists in the world.

And I think that's especially true of me. Music now because of the way that the technology of streaming kind of was designed to diminish the value of the creators and, and sort of emphasize the value of the advertisers and the corporations. You know, I remember when I was young you know, we, it's just think of the record labels as these kind of criminal businessmen who were ripping off the artists. And now we would kill for a deal like those deals that we consider to rip off in the nineties and eighties in terms of, you know, the royalty. So I feel like that's a metaphor for what's happened to art in general. I mean, if you just look at the filmmaking landscape, there are a lot less quote unquote high art films in the theaters than there used to be.

And, you know, not, you know, I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing people because, you know, there's still great filmmakers everywhere and amazing artists everywhere, but it just seems like as a society. At large, we don't value those things. I mean, you know, the, the ballet houses are closing and the, the opera houses are closing and it just seems like we've entered a phase of civilization where we don't appreciate artists in the same way.

I mean, look at the Renaissance when the artists were these really respected members of high society. And now, you know, they don't even want to teach art in public school anymore. So I feel like I really lament the downgrading and the degradation of, of art in, in, in our lives as a, as a society at large.

And I think it's frankly, I think it's very damaging and I think it's potentially dangerous because a classical education used to be math, science, language, and art. And history, right, but art was was in there with math and and and then there with history and language. The fact that we've sort of pushed art to the side.

And we consider it frivolous because all we care about is, I guess, money making, I think is really damaging to the world and it's something I lament. on a daily basis. So, yeah. 

Meg: Great. 

Dave Mullins: I'm tempted to say something about the gatekeepers. Films are so expensive and how the gatekeepers sort of function and how they chase trends at times, but, you know, we're all pissed off about that.

And there's some great keepers, great gatekeepers and some not great keepers. So that's just whatever. But just thinking that there's young, maybe younger screenwriters or artists that are listening to this. I think the thing I. pisses me off the most about art is how I compare myself to people I admire.

You know, watching a Kurosawa film, watching Denis Villeneuve's film you know, reading books that I love, you know, it's so easy to compare yourself to those people, but you don't know what you as a person don't know what they've gone through. You're just looking at the tip of the iceberg of what they've created.

And so I just, it pisses me off when I compare myself to other people like that, that I admire, because it's not really fair to them. And it's not really fair to me because. There's probably somebody, hopefully one day, maybe there'll be somebody that compares themselves to me and they feel the same way.

And, you know, I just want to encourage people to say like, don't get, be easy on yourself. This is hard. And, and try not to, you know, if you're taking your first step, you shouldn't be running in the Olympics. So just take it easy on yourself. So that's what pisses me off about myself is I, I don't always do that.

Meg: I love that. 

Brad Booker: I think for me, it's, you know, again, Dave touched on it, but it, The, the frustration, it's not so much the gatekeepers, it's, it's people that have a say over art that make decisions based on fear. And they, they, and I get it. I get why I do. I get the art and commerce thing, but just so many times where I feel like the wrong decision gets made because it's somebody scared to take a chance.

And I think you guys said it earlier. It's like, in art, if you aren't taking chances and you aren't risking failure, then you aren't going to move people. And I feel like that's what happens a lot of times in, in filmmaking and, you know, in the movie industry is that there's just a lot of. Stuff out there because people aren't willing to, you know, shoot the pigeon.

Meg: Yes. 

Lorien: Oh, the poor pigeon. 

Dave Mullins: It's in the t shirt. Shoot the pigeon. Not all the way. 

Meg: No, you need gatekeepers who are brave. The gatekeepers have to be brave too. Absolutely. All right. Last question. Go ahead, Jeff. 

Jeff: And just amazing answers across the board. Just, I feel like you all have summarized the entirety of how I've ever felt about art in these six responses.

The last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self. What would you tell that version of yourself? 

Meg: What advice? 

Sean Ono Lennon: Yeah. I mean, if I could give myself advice when I was younger, the main thing would be is to, and I think Dave would agree with me, we've spoken about this is to just not let your ego get in the way of learning and growing from people around you who are experienced or might have, you know, ideas about how to improve your work. When I was younger, I was a lot more defensive and I was a lot more confidence, but it was a kind of false confidence because it was, it was a confidence that was based on insecurity. And so my, my, my initial reaction to criticism was always to be like, well, you're wrong.

So it prevented me from growing as fast as I could have grown. And now at this point, you know, at my age, I've made so many records and written so many songs, terrible and decent, both terrible and decent, that I've realized that And we say this actually, Dave and Brad and I have all said this, that, you know, all, no ideas are bad, meaning if anyone has any input or ideas for you, the worst that can happen is that you ultimately don't agree with that.

The best that can happen is that they're right. And you can make the piece of art better. So I think for me, the most important thing was overcoming that. And I do feel like I was lucky enough to overcome that fairly early on. But I remember making. some records early in my life, and I remember specific conversations that wiser people than myself had given input on, and I just sort of rejected it outright because it made me feel uncomfortable.

And that's just very destructive for the artistic process, and it's really, no one benefits from that. So I think that's one of the greatest things, if I could have done it earlier. I would have made that much more progress faster and made better work. 

Meg: Great advice. Yeah. Brad? 

Brad Booker: I think for me it's, it would be trust your gut because I, you know, I feel like, and Sean and I have talked about this one, but I feel like I'm, I'm driven more by intuition and I'm like, gut check guy where my heart on my sleeve.

And I think there are times where I second guess that in life and look, you do what you do and you get where you get. And I, you know, I feel like I've made progress. my way, but I think there are probably, you know, I think I could have made some of the same decisions earlier. I feel like I passed on these windows that open a couple times in my life that maybe I wish I wouldn't have, but I think it's really about trusting, trusting your gut.

And I think everybody has that. I think, you know, some people are more risk adverse to trusting that gut, but I, I really feel like. It's very important in, in any creative endeavor. 

Meg: And Dave. 

Dave Mullins: Yeah, I completely agree with what both Sean and Brad said. I feel like, probably, you know, the ego thing for sure.

Like, keep that in check and just try and recognize when people are trying to help you. And also try and recognize when people aren't. Because there is that in the world too. But when, it's more likely that people are probably trying to help you. Right. Just a quick, quick story. When I directed Lou I pitched films at Pixar short ideas for seven years before I got a green light on Lou.

I had one of the story artists asked me one time, he's like, how do you do it, man? How'd you get that green light? You pitched all those years. And I pitched once and like, I had three ideas. They didn't like it. And they said, fuck you guys. You don't know what you're talking about. And, and my response to that was.

They didn't like those ideas for a reason. They're, these are smart filmmakers. They're smart people. And if there's something they didn't like about it, then I need to go back to the drawing board and figure out a way to make it into something that people are going to like. So, you know, early on, like try and put your ego aside, like Sean's saying, and try and listen to when people are helping you, even though the help comes in the form of this isn't right.

Now, we've all experienced the people that just doing that because of their ego. So you have to be able to discern it. But when people are, your real friends are going to tell you when something's wrong because they want to help you. So listen to that. That would be one of us. 

Lorien: What I love about all three of your answers, and it's so clear how connected you all are, there are variations on a very similar, like there's something at the bottom of it and you all have a different interpretation of it.

It's like I would give you like a pitch for a movie and you'd each come up with a different movie, but it's the same pitch, right? Same theme, same character, you know? So it's really beautiful to see you guys working together, leave it even on that very personal level as well. Like you said that at the beginning of the show, how you're all so, you know, personally connected.

So it's interesting to listen to how you guys play off each other and have such similar. 

Meg: And it's been just an incredibly insightful podcast to hear you guys and your thought process, not just about the movie and how it came together, but how you approach art, how you approach creativity. 

Lorien: What would be something that you would, you would have loved to have heard when you were, you know, in the struggle at some point, or that you sort of have to remind yourself of now or something that you've learned that you think would be valuable to our listeners.

Jennifer Deaton: Just having an agent is not the end-all-be-all . It needs to be a match and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that person and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. You just need to be with someone who gets you and that y'all can talk to each other. Right. 

Meg: I love that. That's so important. I think so many people just get their nose on the trail of an agent and they're missing so, so many things and, and layers and, and layers. Opportunities. 

Jennifer Deaton: I think also like when you're building community, whether it's with alums or just people you met at Austin and you form a writing group or people you met on the Facebook page and you form a writing group, or you, you take part in a festival or whatever community requires consistency.

And it doesn't mean like constant. It doesn't mean constancy, just consistency. And that means don't just show up when you need something, right? Like sometimes we say, Oh, I'm going to skip that because I'm not in need, but you need to show up in plenty and in want, because though you might not be in need, the other members of your community are, and that's your time to hear them.

If only to hear them, maybe offer advice or a reference or referral or something. We have to be aware that we can get trapped in our comfort zones. Okay. We spend so much time working alone, working in our head, on the computer, it's easy to become reclusive. So what I am, what I am working on is how do I extend my comfort zone?

How do I make myself more, either more comfortable being uncomfortable so it doesn't throw me off my game? Or how can I truly get comfortable in more settings with more people? not just be happy doing the writing. 

Lorien: Yeah, I think that's so amazing and it's a difference I like to think about in terms of the difference between like networking and connecting.

Right? That I'm not looking always for like, I need something or I want to, it's, well, it's give and take. It's a relationship. All right. 

Meg: So I feel like you just answered the third question of the last questions we asked. So I want to ask you the other two. Okay. What is something that gives you joy either about writing? Or doing the, the, the reading that you do. 

Jennifer Deaton: You asked me two questions. That makes me want to answer two questions. You mean two topics, writing or the reader? 

Meg: So answer both. Yeah. 

Jennifer Deaton: As a reader, the thing that makes me happiest is that I actually did this job before I knew it was a job. When I was in high school, I kept a journal.

Like I was a busy kid in high school. I was doing all the things, but. In my free time, I was reading extra stuff, and I was keeping a journal of what I was reading, and I would like, summarize the story, and then, and then I'd say what I left out, didn't even know coverage existed. My favorite thing about writing is, I really do believe that, even if, even if something doesn't get made, I love that those characters do exist and that they're real to me.

And I don't know if that's like a velveteen rabbit kind of thing. They're real because I love them, but spending the time with them for whatever reason I'm writing that story, whether it's like processing some grief or trauma or trying to figure out some question, something that I'm curious about, they're, they're real.

And then it's just icing on the cake when you get to make it. And. Other people recognize that they're right. 

Meg: I love it. All right, Lorien, ask the next one. 

Lorien: What pisses you off about being a writer, being a development person, a reader, whatever? Okay, what pisses you off about the industry and your experience in it? That's the question. 

Jennifer Deaton: Oh, shoot. Oh, I know. What pisses me off is my reading brain and my writing brain are completely separate parts. Like, when I read a script for someone else, I almost feel like Bobby Fischer. Like, like, oh, I can like, I think this is highlighted for me and that shows up and I'm like, oh, yeah, I feel very just have that the, the, the blessing of objectivity and I can see like, all right, here's, here's, here's what's going to help.

But when I look at my own. It's like, did this work? 

Meg: You're blind, I know, it's so maddening. It's madness. 

Lorien: I sometimes have to pretend someone else wrote what I wrote in order to do that, and it's still really hard. And the friend that I, that told me yesterday that I'm just telling myself no, he also gave me a really good note.

I have three notes that I got on something I was real, real mad about. Real, real mad about. And he was like, you have to take your, like that response out of that and like, look at it as if someone else wrote that and is giving that person got the note. How would you as like a mentor help them find what the note under the note really is?

And he got me in this place where I could actually get there and then he workshopped me with it. Now I came up with something that of course is way better away, fits the toe in your frontal lobe. He took you out of your, your amygdala, put you in your frontal lobe, which is hard to do. But what you're talking about, right?

Is that right? When I read my own work, I sort of panic. Is that right? I don't know. Like, whereas I'm reading someone else's work, I'm coming at it with kindness and I'm on your side and sort of switching into that space for me is really hard. Like, what do I love about this? Then why do I love it? Is that enough, right?

It's it for me. That's what that struggle is. 

Meg: So I, I hate, I hate the two brains when I'm actually writing because I, like, can read and understand and talk at, like, the NBA level, but, like, when you're writing, you always have to go back to the beginning. I mean, you don't, because you have skill sets, and you can go faster, but the dreamer is still just spewing out stuff, right?

Like, it's literally like, why can't the dreamer talk to the frontal lobe and just jump to what it's going to need to be. We used to joke at Pixar, God, if we had a time machine, we could just go watch this movie and then come back because we're going to go through so many versions to get there and it's going to hopefully, if it's a great movie, feel inevitable that of course this is the movie, right?

But, oh my goodness. To get there, the dreamer just goes around and around. I totally agree with you. I agree 100%. That separation is beautiful. It's why we are complex beings. And yet, oh my gosh, it can be so annoying. 

Lorien: Yeah. Time machines would be amazing. 

Meg: Wouldn't it be amazing? 

Lorien: I, yeah. 

Jennifer Deaton: But also scary, maybe.

Meg: Yeah. Because you're going to be like, oh, this script didn't go. Nobody ever made it. 

Lorien: But then you have to remember that the work you did on that script is actually going to help you on the next project. 

Meg: That's what I'm saying. It would be bad because if I went forward and said they're never going to make this too expensive.

Or some other movie that would like it got made in tank. So now they're never going to make it. You would not write it and not learn what you needed to write. This is why we don't have time machines, people. This is why. 

What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing? 

Cole Haddon: I actually, I'm going to give a ridiculous answer for most writers. I love the blank page. I love the unknown. 

Jeff: Teach me how to do that. 

Lorien: Gasp, I say, gasp. 

Jeff: Yeah, that's your class, how to love the blank page. You'll make a billion dollars. 

Cole Haddon: I, I, and I don't think that's something that you can love at the beginning. I think it comes after you've been doing it for a while and you acquire the faith that it's going to work out.

I now know I'm going to get to the finish line. That's not a mystery. And so now I'm just excited about the process. I, that, that blank page, there's so much potential. There are characters I don't know, moments I haven't experienced yet. And so it's a little like sitting down to watch a film I haven't seen before.

Meg: I just feel that way when I don't have to give it to anybody. Like if it's just for me and I'm just going to go have fun. I love it. Cause you don't know what's going to happen and what is she going to say? And we're just going to go. But as soon as my brain starts coming in about, well, the producers and the show, then that, that then I get all tied up.

Okay, go ahead, Lorien. 

Lorien: Allright. So what pisses you off about writing? 

Cole Haddon: Oh, I think it's the same thing for most, all of us. The notes, the, the, the, the notes being given notes in a way that aren't questions. I like notes when they're questions. I like notes when we're having a discussion about what my intention was so that I can be helped to find the best version of myself as a writer.

But the majority of notes are generally I have to do so much detective work to work out what are you actually talking about right now? Why am I getting this note? And, and Christ, I just did a week's worth of work trying to answer it. And you couldn't even give a good one to begin with. Like, had you just said this other thing, I could have done it.

So notes give me anxiety. And even when they're good notes before the, the notes meeting to discuss them, I am shaking every time. 

Meg: Right there with you. 

Cole Haddon: Yeah. 

Jeff: It's a great answer. I feel very seen. The last question, Cole is if you could go back in time and have a coffee with your younger self kind of before you know, your big break or whatever you want to call it. What would you tell that Cole? 

Cole Haddon: Oh, there are a couple of different things. I think one would be to hold on to every penny I had as opposed to investing perhaps in things like houses or houses too large, whatever it is, you, you get into a trap as you begin to work of making your life get bigger and bigger before you're ready for it to get bigger and bigger and you try to keep up with other people and it traps you in a cycle where you have to take bigger and typically worse jobs to to maintain the life that you now have and Then you become a hack very quickly and you begin to hate what you do.

I think that is one. And the other is, I don't even know how to properly articulate this, but I was an incredibly terrible client. I think I was a good client. For many reps, but I had no patience for their bullshit and their lies. And and it made it very difficult for me to navigate the system. And I made enemies within my own agencies.

And I think that most of the time, these were very problematic human beings. But if I had leaned more on other screenwriters for advice about how to react to these moments instead of just blurting things out. The moment I had an emotional response to something terrible that was happening to me.

I think that I would have had reps who were maybe a bit more invested in my career because I've now had 35 or 36 US reps going through teams. I love my foreign reps. I'm repped in the UK and Australia, and those are the best relationships I've ever had, other than my manager, Alex Goldstoun, former manager at Anonymous.

But I just, I, I, you need to talk to other people around you before you start talking about what's going wrong with your career, what's going wrong with your agents you will torpedo yourself immediately before you, you have the career you want. 

Meg: Yes, it is. It's an art form in and of itself, right? Hollywood speak, I don't, Hollywood speak isn't right. But like knowing the politics of Hollywood, I guess is what I'm saying. There's a, there are politics in Hollywood and maybe we'll have to have you back to talk about that. But I love talking with you. 

Lorien: They're so tricky. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. 

Cole Haddon: It's exhausting. Thank you. 

Meg: Thank you so much, Cole, for being here. 

What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing and or show running?

Jeff Melvoin: That's a really good question. I think on a purely experiential feeling basis in terms of the process, there's nothing I love being more than than being in the editing room and seeing and pulling a show together. I love that feeling from a more interactive point of view. I really just love the experience of bringing together a bunch of people and seeing them all pull together to create something that's better than anything else could do by themselves. And as an extrapolation from that I love to see people go on and have careers and feel like I might've had a hand in, in, in helping them get where they want to go. 

Lorien: Awesome. I love all those answers. I connect to all of them. So the second question is what pisses you off about writing and or show running? 

Jeff Melvoin: You know, that's a good question. I mean, it's, it's, it's I really do love to write. I really hate getting a note that is good. That makes me rewrite something I thought was done. Oh my God. I'm still there. You know, it but So that's my own writing.

What pisses me off about other people's writing is that I think they're lazy and have just booted it. You know, it's one thing if you don't have talent that's okay. You're going to wash out. If you do have talent, but you don't apply yourself that to me is a red card offense. 

Jeff: Mm. It's a good answer.

And Jeff, the last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, kind of like right on the big break or whatever you consider to be your break. What advice would you give? To that younger Jeff?

Jeff Melvoin: You know, I think for me, it would be take the pressure off yourself for having to get your own show on the air.

That was the last rung of the ladder for me. And it really drove me for a while and not necessarily in a bad way. You know, I'd started a staff writer, went up the ranks, I was running shows, I was writing pilots. I had pilots made, but the next thing was to get a show on the air and it just didn't happen for me.

I, you know, we all put pressure on ourselves. That felt like failure to me. And what's funny now is with the book and everything else and the credits, you know, I find that most people, and I'm sure you guys can agree with this, you know, they don't know who does what. They just see your credits and they think you're great.

You did this, you did that as if you did the whole thing by yourself. And of course, some cases you did, and in some cases you didn't. But, you know, most people don't know, you know. And so I would always feel, in fact, people say, here's the guy who did Northern Exposure. And I kept saying, no, I'm, I was one of, you know, essentially five people that wrote a lot of that shit.

And you did Remington Steele. Well, no, I was actually brought on, you know, I, I get, and I realized people don't want you to correct them necessarily, but it was a reflection of my knowing keenly what I did and what I had not. And I take my hat off to people who get shows on the air, but I've come to recognize without rationalizing that luck plays a hand in what gets onto the air and, and you can have pilots that don't get made that arguably on any kind of objective basis, which doesn't exist, that deserve to be on where other shows didn't, but it doesn't matter.

You didn't get it there. Learning to live with that and accept that and make peace with that and be okay with that took me a while. So if I'd had that cup of coffee, I'd say, Hey, it's great to do this, but you know, don't make that the the lens I'll be all right. 

Meg: That's your values. If you do this, right.

Yeah. That, and then that's the same in any writing, right? Like it's what, what, what you do it for and what is success. 

What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing? 

Debby Wolfe: What brings me the most joy when it comes to writing? 

Meg: Or showrunning. 

Debby Wolfe: I think it's that moment when you're in the flow, you know, when Oprah talks a lot about being in the flow that is like the, just such a, such a amazing moment.

Like we talked about it earlier, like when it happens in the room as well, like when everyone's just on the same page or, or like when you're writing alone in your room and you're like, ah, yeah, like just that, like, this is really good. Yeah. Like that feeling, like that's, there's, I think there's no better feeling.

Meg: It is amazing. 

Jeff: And then the flip side of that is what pisses you off about writing? 

Debby Wolfe: That it's so hard. It's like, it's so hard. It hurts my brain. It's like, by the end of the day, like I have like nothing left in me. Like, I just have to watch housewives. 

Jeff: Okay, this is important. Which ones are you watching?

Debby Wolfe: What are your favorite franchises? I'm watching I love Miami because it's my latinas and so and I come from there So I love it and then i'm also doing beverly hills and then I heard I need to watch salt lake But I haven't gotten to it yet. 

Jeff: It's wild Yeah. 

Meg: Now I have to watch this show. Yes. 

Jeff: I love that you're keeping it in the NBCU family too, Debby. That's, that's great. Yes. The executives listening are happy. The peacock is, the peacock is happy. Yes. 

Debby Wolfe: Peacock. Subscribe to Peacock. You can watch a season two of Popeye's on it. Exactly. There you go. 

Meg: All right. The last question is, if you could have coffee with your younger self, what piece of advice would you tell that Debby?

Debby Wolfe: My younger self I would tell her, you know, To not give up, you know, that it's going to be very challenging. There's going to be ups and downs, but you know, I think if I met my younger self, I would understand that I had a deep, deep passion for it. Like, and, and that's something you have to have. Like, if you don't have like a deep love and passion for television or film you won't make it.

Cause like, you just, you just won't. If there's something else that you think you could do, go do that. But if you have that deep passion, then don't give up. Because you know, if you keep, keep at it and, and keep, you know, and, and definitely like, I think approach, I, I think of writing like, it's like, you have to approach it like a sport, like you gotta like practice, you know, you gotta write bad script after bad script to write the good script.

So, keep practicing. 

Meg: I love that comparison, because of course, if you walked up to a, a novice and handed them a giant pole and said, use this pole to vault over that six foot, you'd be like, what? I can't do that. I need to practice. I need to learn how to do that. And people just don't understand that writing is exactly the same.

Debby Wolfe: Yeah. It's a skill. It's a skill. It's amazing. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing or your work? You're also a director. 

Octavio Solis: Hearing an audience react, hearing an audience laugh so even, even the parts that I didn't know that were funny because it's recognition. I don't write jokes, I don't do jokes, but I know how to craft something so that there'll be a surprise and the audience will find it amusing or entertaining or something or funny, just plain funny. I, I, I, I like that or a gasp or, or, or someone saying, oh no, aloud. When that happens, I go, ah, good. It's, you know, I'm hitting, I'm hitting some nerve. This, this is meaningful to somebody. Feeling that live experience happen while the play is going on because when you feel that, it changes the performance. The performance is different. And, and that's why, you know, I encourage people to see a play more than once because you never see the same show twice. It's like you never step in the same river twice. You know, it's the, the play going is, is that kind of experience.

Lorien: I think that's what I miss the most about working in the theater is that you're so there, like, as an actor, you're on stage, every audience is different, getting those reactions from the audience, it's so alive, which you hope to bring to the screen. So here's the second question what pisses you off when it comes to writing, or your work?

Octavio Solis: When I'm stubborn? When I'm stubborn about about something that I, that too many people have told me, you gotta change this, you gotta work on this, and I go, no, no, this is important to me, and it really wasn't, it really wasn't that important, and I pay for it. And I pay for it down the line with a moment that is embarrassing, that is like, Oh, how did I not listen?

Why did I not listen? And it's because sometimes that stick to your guns attitude can really backfire on you if you're If, if, if you're dead wrong, if you're just plain dead wrong, if you hear it from enough people there, they must be on to something, they must be on to something, and so I that, that is usually when I get really most irate at, at myself.

Uh, another thing that I also really, really pisses me off is in a situation when we're all working together and someone or two parties or something make such misery, make the experience so miserable for everybody. That it's, it's, it's painful to go to rehearsals. It was just painful. But you signed down for it and and you gotta commit to it and all, you know.

So I resolved after an experience where I was involved like that for over two years, three years almost, I resolved that from now on if, if something like that happens, I will do everything in my power to correct it, to ameliorate it, to ease it in some way. Or, and if it doesn't change, I'll get out.

I'll find a way to quit because they don't pay us enough in the theater anyway. And to do that, to be miserable, it's not worth it. It just isn't worth it. I, I don't like that kind of room where people are unpleasant and unkind to others so that, you know, results in, in everyone being unhappy or someone crying.

And I, I just hate that. I wanted to be a rich experience for everyone. And if the Dears come, they're earned because of their own efforts trying to get to something, and they just can't they keep beating their own head against the wall. And it's up to us to help them break through but to be cruel to anybody in the, in the rehearsal room, you know, where we're all working together on something good, it just, I just can't stand that.

Meg: Agree. I'm having that conversation with friends. Like, yes, at this age, life is too short. It's gotta be with people you trust and, and are good people. 

Jeff: I'm sure you find the works also better. I find that a hostile environment is not productive for creativity at all. So that's another aspect of it. 

Octavio Solis: No. 

Jeff: Okay. Octavio, the third question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self kind of, I would say for you, right before you begin, you committed to actually writing after helping all the students as much as you did. What advice would you give to that Octavio?

Octavio Solis: Wow, what advice would I give to that? 

Lorien: I think you need to write a scene where you're interviewing young people. 

Jeff: There it is. 

Octavio Solis: I, I would have probably the, the same advice that someone gave me then also is, is don't worry about your career. Just do your job. Don't worry about your career. Don't worry about making, don't do choices for your career to build on that.

Just do your work, do your job, the career will take care of itself. That's what I would tell myself. That's great. That's what I would tell myself. 

Meg: That's awesome. 

Lorien: In terms of your job, do you mean like, things that make you feel joy, things that, cause we'll do that in the industry too, like, okay, if I work with this person, then I can do this. Like in your, it, there's, it's, it's hard to resist that. Yeah. But if you're focusing on the writing, on the work, on the stories you want to tell, telling the truth, is that what you're talking about? 

Octavio Solis: Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Instead of like, Oh, I gave an opportunity to get on board this Broadway show and and I'll get paid a lot of money. I'll get famous. Maybe I'll get a Tony, maybe I'll get an Obie or something. And and I let that go. I struggle with it so much because I didn't move to New York. And and, and I've had invitations and inducements to come aboard some projects that were for profit Broadway shows. And I tried and I found that I'm just not I'm not built for it.

It's not me. I do these works that are so bizarre and weird and they make me so happy when they're done well. And there seems to be a taste for them an audience for them, at least directors who are interested in them. So I have an ongoing career and it feels really good to kind of feel like, well, I'm being true to myself.

And and, and, and I'm just, you know, I, I just have been putting one foot in front of the other in terms of my, my work in terms of just, you know, do the work and not worry about how it's going to reflect on me and my career. Because I was moaning to this guy in my beard that, you know, my, I feel like my career should have been further along by now.

I should have, you know, so and so is getting so many productions in New York here and there and there and there. in these little, in these wonderful theaters in New York. And my friend said you know, she's practically living on the poverty line. She's getting these big productions, but she's on the poverty line.

Look at you. You're getting your plays done at South Coast Rep, at at Oregon Shakespeare Festival, at Seattle Rep, blah, blah, blah. What are you, what are you moaning about? Just keep, just do your job. And don't worry about the career, the career, the career is what you see in your rear view mirror.

That's what's behind you. That's your career. The job is what you have to, the task at hand, what you have to do. 

Meg: Thank you so much. 

Lorien: Thank you. It's been great having you, talking to you. 

Meg: Yeah, on the show. Thank you so much. 

Octavio Solis: Oh, I hope I was able to fill up the time. 

Meg: That was very inspiring. I'm going to write stuff and put it on my wall.

Octavio Solis: What a pleasure to chat with you all. You all are fun. 

Lorien: What brings you the most joy when it comes to your work? 

Carole Kirschner: Well I am, I do not see myself as a writer. My joy, because of the work I do, I mean, I'm so lucky. I spent, I spent 20 years as a development executive in television and I hated the politics of it.

All I do now is help people. So when, I am able to do something that moves someone's career ahead. That makes me feel so great. That is probably my biggest joy. That's my biggest joy. 

Lorien: When you said that you had a writer in the mentoring program that got through your showrooting program, like your whole voice and your face, like everything lit up.

Like I could see like, Oh my gosh, that's like a, a big moment of satisfaction for you. 

Carole Kirschner: It is. 

Lorien: Oh, I've started using the word satisfaction instead of achievement or success. 

Carole Kirschner: Love it. 

Lorien: I got that from someone else by the way, but that to me, like I'm satisfied by that. Like I'm, Full. Anyway. 

Carole Kirschner: No. No, that's good because it takes the good and bad out of it. It just, and again, it speaks to what feeds you. Yes. Because that satisfies you. 

Lorien: Yes. Because success is a tricky concept in American culture and everything. Anyway. Okay. So the second question is what pisses you off about your work?

Carole Kirschner: I don't want to say this because the universe will kick my ass. But sometimes it's just too much. I run a lot of, I run programs, I speak, I coach, I, so I love every single thing, but when it all comes at the same time, it, and you know, it doesn't piss me off. Piss, here's what pisses me off. Mean people, people who, people who are just mean.

That, you know, and mean to the people I love mean to the people I care about mean to the people I'm helping people who are arrogant jerks people who are mean for no reason or mean spirited that pisses me off. Cruelty sucks. And abuse sucks. And there's another word there I was searching for blatant disregard of someone's humanness sucks.

Lorien: Yes. So what you love is when someone's humanness is celebrated. 

Carole Kirschner: Yes. Thank you for saying that. You are a writer. That's why you said that. 

Lorien: You know, just me trying to change my point of view all the time because I am a cynic at heart. Yes. And I work so hard to be a realist. That's all. Like, I can't do optimist, but I can bump up to realist.

Carole Kirschner: Realist is a step forward. As I like to say, I imagine the worst. My family, they're both optimist, my husband and daughter. It's like, don't you see the train is coming right at us. You know what I mean? So I have to work so hard just like you to go, well, maybe something good will, maybe that'll turn out well. That's sometimes the best I can do. 

Lorien: Knock me over into a pile of money. They're hitting me. Maybe that's what I can imagine. 

Carole Kirschner: Knock me over into a pile of money. I'm into it. 

Lorien: I'll take a hit for a pile of money, you know, just a little bit. All right. So Jeff. Has the third question for you. 

Jeff: Carol, the last question we ask is, and this will be interesting because you started your career as a stand up, but if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self and I'll let you pick when that is, like which version of Carol that would be, but what advice would you give that Carol during that general meeting with yourself?

Carole Kirschner: That is a great question. I love it. And you know, the answer came quickly to me and it was, Just as I was starting as not as a comic, but as a junior, junior, I started as an assistant to two writer producers. It would be keep the focus on the work because so much of it was my insecurity. And does this person like me? And did I off that person? And how do I get that person to want to help me? And, you know, I had a hundred years of therapy, but If you, I would just say, just focus on the work, just focus on the work and being of service. Just focus on the work and helping people. That's what I would say to my younger self.

Lorien: And that's where you are now. So good job. 

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it comes to being a producer? 

Navid McIlhargey: So, I can't say my kids. 

Meg: No, I said producing. 

Lorien: Producing, not having produced. 

Navid McIlhargey: The, the most joy I, I have a sentence that I say and it's, Kind of ironic. I'll believe it when I'm at the premiere, and even then I'll still be suspect. But the most joy I find is when you spend the time developing something and putting it together.

And look, I've had, I, someday I should come back and just tell you all the horror stories I've had of movies falling apart. And how far along they were when they fell apart. But the most joy I find is when you find something and you get it just right. When you put it together in the right way, where all of a sudden, Everybody's like, Oh, I want to be a part of this.

And I've had that happen. And it's awesome. It's awesome. I developed the script and then CAA called me one day and they were like, what's going on with the script? And they were like, well, Brad Pitt wants to do it. And we hadn't even gone to Brad Pitt. Right. When you have those moments, that's when I think I find the most joy because it, it validates.

Lorien: We're going to go in a different direction. So then what pisses you off about producing? 

Navid McIlhargey: It shouldn't, honestly, it shouldn't be this hard. And and I say that and it sounds trite, but it really doesn't need to be this hard. I think everybody is looking for reasons to say no. And frankly, when you have.

And this isn't my ego talking, but when you have scripts that are really good, and like, with directors that are really good, and they're not necessarily all first time directors, some of them are cool directors and they're good ideas, and two years later you're still trying to land the cast, or the financing falls apart, or all this stuff, it's just, it doesn't really need to be this hard.

That's what pisses me off. 

Jeff: Great answer. Our last question, Navid, is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, maybe right before you interned with Meg LeFauve what advice would you give to that? 

Meg: Or while you were interning. 

Lorien: Or after your first day of interning with Meg LeFauve.

Meg: What is the advice? 

Jeff: Yeah, what's the advice? 

Navid McIlhargey: We talked a little bit about this earlier, and it kind of has to do with going upstairs to Netflix which is don't ignore things that are staring you right in the face. Because that, during that two month period, there's two big things that things that happened to me.

One was going upstairs to Cindy Holland and her saying, you should bring us TV shows and me not paying any attention to it. The other thing that happened was before I got that job running that indie company, and this was right after the studio world, I went to a big agent at William Morris and he said, go into TV.

And I was like, what are you talking about? I don't want to go into TV. And this, again, this was a little over 12 years ago. I said, I came here to make movies. I don't want to go into TV. And he goes, I'm not going to help you if you don't go into TV. And I was like, well, I literally in tears went to another agent's office.

It was like, what is happening? And he, and he started laughing and he said, we just got out of a retreat. And Ari said, take everybody out of film, put them in a TV. Cause for the next 10 years, that's what the business is going to be. And by the way, it was, and had I gone and done that, no, I'm not saying I necessarily could have, should have, whatever, but had I done that, or at least been more open to it.

I would have had a lot more doors open for me and probably made a lot more money. 

Lorien: That's not fair to your past self. I'm just gonna point this out because it could have been, it could have been different. We don't always know. I think you're right. Like, pay attention to things. Your gut, though, is telling you to stay where you were.

Navid McIlhargey: Yeah, but it caused a very hard ten, twelve years of struggling and trying to get movies made. That's okay. 

Jeff: To me, what it shows, though, is your self awareness. And your ability to look back and recognize that and ping that also has probably served you very well at other times as a producer. You know that it's, it's a very impressive level of humility, and it's nice to see a successful producer show that because writers so often feel humbled. It's refreshing. So thank you. For being for being open. 

Navid McIlhargey: Glad I could, glad I could be open and honest. Yeah, I mean, looking back on that, it's, it's scary and all, but, you know, I firmly believe that things happen for a reason and everything's gonna work out. My wife is so tired of hearing me say that.

It'll all work out. 

Lorien: We had a whole thing on the show where we kept saying, things usually work out for me. 

Meg: I need that today. Things generally tend to work out for me. 

Lorien: Things generally work out, things work out for me. How about that? Just declarative, positive, things work out for me. I'm going to write it down and try not to forget it now.

Meg: What brings you the most joy when it came to being a script consultant? 

Linda Seger: I think it was seeing the fire light up in a writer that I would say something and and because I wanted, I wanted the light to shine on their script. And so it wasn't a matter of them. Well, you know, now we learned and figured out some things to do.

It was like, now I know what to do. And the, when I started my business, I took my doctoral dissertation really was the basis for my script consulting business, which sounds strange because that sounds so intellectual, but it wasn't. I was a theater director and I was directing a play called The Visit.

That was my doctoral dissertation project. So rather, I, I still wrote a lot about it, but I directed it because in theater, you want to do something else. Really, in theater, dramatic, and I, when I was working on the script, I thought, why is this such a great script? And I started looking, I took everything I knew about drama, you know, the conflict, the character transformations, all that.

I started analyzing it. And I developed a method of, of sort of understanding what are the elements that need to be in there and what element is missing. And so I flipped this, not on why this is a good script, is I flipped it to, you know, looking at scripts that were not great yet. And. What are the elements that need to be coming in there that are not there?

Meg: Okay. What, when you were a script consultant, pissed you off about being a script consultant, 

Linda Seger: Do you know? I honestly don't think anything did. 

Meg: Oh, come on. Come on. 

Linda Seger: I honestly think I a never, no, never. I had, I had, the only thing I, I'll, I'll give you an but, but first of all is to just say, I adored my job.

And I know script consultants that get really pissed off over bad scripts. And I said, but that's our job. That is the job. Everything we work on doesn't work. That's, that's the whole point. And if you don't want to work with things that don't work, you shouldn't be a script consultant. But I'll tell you what did. It's dishonesty, inauthenticity, and I I think in all those 2, 000 scripts, there was one script I sent back and I gave her back her money. It was, it was, when I say bad, it was morally bad at its absolute core. And she hired two of us to work on it as a team, another script consultant, Dara Marks. And Dara and I were working on it and we called each other and we discussed morally and ethically what we should do.

I said I'm going to give her her money back and say, I do not want to read another page of this. I think I read 20 pages. And Dara said, I am going to give her the Riot Act. I'm going to do the work, but I'm going to really rip it. And just let her know this is just reprehensible. So that was one thing.

Derivative scripts. In fact, I worked on a script and I said, this is Ordinary People. You, I said, look, because I, I also sometimes did legal cases of copyright infringement, and, and I always wanted to see 75 things that were clearly infringed upon. I said I could find 150 things. In the script, I said, You cannot do this.

I mean, I was really strong and this guy was very, it was pretty angry at me. And I said, no, you cannot do this. You, you have just ripped off the script and there's nothing fresh about it. 

Meg: And that's a great answer. And it's, and it's a relative answer, of course. And that's where we go back to artistry.

Right. And then there's one last question we're going to have Jeff ask. 

Jeff: The last question we asked Linda is, if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self to give that Linda some advice, what would you tell her? 

Linda Seger: I would tell her you got it in ya. And you just go for it, gal. And I think it, starting a business, writing a script, all of this, this stuff is hard and difficult.

And you got to have a lot of guts. And, and when they say you have what it takes, or you don't have what it takes. And sometimes you don't know if you have what it takes. I would have told my younger self, you have what it takes. And don't be, don't be afraid to go down the path. Don't be afraid to learn.

And you just, you just go for it. 

Meg: I love that. Thank you. I'm so glad you said yes to us and came on our show. We have loved having you. Thank you so much for being here. 

What brings you the most joy when it comes to being a script consultant or your own writing? 

Billy Mernit: Well, script consultant, that's easy, is when you read something that, you know, blows the top of your head off and you go, Oh my God, I've got to get them to make this movie.

My one claim, one of my claims to fame at Universal is, and believe me, there were other people right behind me, I'm sure who had the same thought. I read Get Out as a spec thinking, Oh, this must be a comedy thing from Key and Peele, you know, like just totally blind. And by the end of the read, I was going, we got to make this movie, you know, and so like it's those moments in that part of my life that are the best. As a writer, it's those moments when you do find a solution to a problem that seems to come out of the ether. You know when you've been working working working can't get there Can't when you have that great bolt from the blue that feels completely like it's almost not you, right?

Those are wonderful. Those moments where you kind of feel like you've gotten this gift of something just comes into place and suddenly everything in the story is better because of this fix. 

Lorien: All right, the second question is, what pisses you off about your work? 

Billy Mernit: I call him the little fucker. And the little fucker is the guy who sits on your shoulder and goes, God, you suck.

And what did, why did you even think you could write anything? Right? So it's the little fucker. And then he has a friend who I equally despise, which is, I call him The Guy From The Night Before, which is when you write until the wee hours and you're thinking, Oh God, this is so great. And then you come back the next day and you go.

Who was the moron who wrote this last night? So it's those two things, having to deal with the little fucker on your shoulder who's always giving you a hard time, and two, having to deal with the bad writer who was there the night before that you're constantly having to clean up after. 

Jeff: Oh, that's so great. I love how specific that is.

Meg: A little fucker. 

Jeff: I sometimes find Billy. I have to try to be nice to the guy who wrote from the night before, because I'll get so mad at him that like, as much as I want to punch him, I also be like, it's okay, I forgive you, but I have to get into this. 

Meg: That's exactly why I'm terrified right now, because I'm afraid that that guy has taken over and none of it's actually any good.

Billy Mernit: Well, but the good news there is somehow the other guy always shows up to write the guy the next day. That guy doesn't go away, or woman, so. 

Lorien: What if I'm dealing with the woman from last night, and I'm waiting for the woman tomorrow, but who am I today? 

Meg: It doesn't matter, just write. Just write. 

Jeff: Oh, that's great. Okay, finally, Billy, we always ask if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, and yeah, you can choose whatever version of yourself that is, but what advice would you give to that Billy? 

Billy Mernit: Alright, I have one thought with a sort of a caveat attached, it's sort of a two parter. The first thing I would say to him, to me, is take bigger risks.

Just take bigger risks, reach further, and don't care so much about what anybody thinks of you. I mean, the first draft, as we know, is for us. Right? I mean, the first time out, no one, no one's watching, nobody cares. So you might as well just go for broke, right? Push harder, go deeper, take bigger risks. But the, the caveat I would put on that, and this took me decades to learn as a writer, is once you've done that, do then step two, which is think about it as an audience.

Once you've got it there, once you've got something on the page, that's the moment to step back and go, really would I go see this if I had no idea? You know, is this, is this like other movies that I've seen? In other words, not about imitating trends. It's not about looking at what sells, I'm talking you, the audience, what you want to see, what, what really turns you on and what touches your emotions and look at it and go, wait, am I speaking to that?

So that would be the two, two sides of that.