238 | How To Create and Maintain a Screenwriting Career Outside of LA or NY (ft. Will Fetters and Chris Sparling)

For decades, if you wanted to make it as a Hollywood writer, the first step was simple: move to Hollywood. But increasingly, screenwriters have found that they're able to create and foster screenwriting careers outside of Los Angeles. Two folks who have done that successfully, Will Fetters and Chris Sparling, join us today to talk about the practical logistics of making your Hollywood writing career work no matter where you live.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and Meg can't join us today, but with us as always is producer Jeff.

Jeff: I'm thrilled to be here and I'm even more excited to talk to both of our guests, Will Fetters and Chris Sparling. Will is Oscar nominated for co writing A Star is Born alongside Bradley Cooper and Eric Roth, but is also known for movies like Hustle and The Lucky One alongside Nicholas Sparks.

Lorien: Chris has written 12 produced movies, among them Buried, starring Ryan Reynolds, The Sea of Trees, starring Matthew McConaughey, and Greenland, starring Gerard Butler. Neither Chris nor Will live in LA or New York permanently, and they've both created and sustained great careers, which we thought would make a great episode, especially for our listeners who don't live in LA or New York right now. So hi. Welcome to the show.

Will: Hello. Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jeff: So we can't wait to talk to both of you about that. But before we do, we're going to be talking about our weeks or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. Lorien, let's start with you. How was your week?

Lorien: My week was phenomenal for a change because I have started working with an assistant who is my external executive function. And I meet with her every morning and we go over my to do list, all the things I'm supposed to do, all the meetings I have, making sure I'm prepped, like, and she bosses me around a little, which I love when I try to cram too many things in a day, she's like, but wait, you can't do all those things.

Let's move that to this other day. And it is, It's so amazing to be able to talk through it with somebody because I, I'm alone. I sit in my office. In my basement in Burbank and but it's nice to have someone to talk through some of the stuff. And this morning she actually was acting as my development executive and that I was trying to find out the theme of this project I'm trying to work on.

So I was like talking it through with her and she's really smart and she's a writer too. So that has changed my life in such a great way. Because I have phenomenal ADD, ADHD. And even though I take all the medication and exercise every morning and do all the things you're supposed to do I still need help.

And I realized it's not a problem I'm going to solve myself. So I'm going to bring someone in to serve as this executive external function for me, external executive function. See, I'm already, I'm thinking faster than my health again. So it's it's such a simple thing and it's. I feel like I have a partner in the chaos now in a way that I can't, ask another writer friend or my husband to do.

So for me, it's been great. We'll see how long this lasts, right? With ADHD, you get a new project and you're like, yay, let's do this. And then I hope I don't poop out on it. Well, I won't, she won't let me, but, and it's helped me really get everything done. stick to my writing time. Like today, after I get off, she's going to email me and be like, it's your writing time.

You're going into lockdown, turn off your phone and your laptop and do it. And I'll call you when you can be done. So just little teeny management, things like that have really helped me.

Will: How long are those periods when you're writing? Sorry to interrupt when you do like your script.

Lorien: This is Will, just so we get to learn your voice.

Yeah. So, today I get to write for three hours.

Will: Wow, that's good.

Lorien: Yeah. And, I'll probably spend the first 15 like getting my water and, do my dance song. I like to dance to a song before I start so that I can, it's just a transition for me. Right. Cause I work at home. So I'm like, okay.

I'm dancing to Queen, then I sit down and then I write. I have a harder time with like one hour times, so I like to at least have a chunk. So that's helpful. Nice. So, Chris, how was your week?

Chris: My week's been good. I'm here in LA for some meetings that have gone well. Most of them are to do with a project that I wrote that I'm directing.

So it's been some cast meetings. Some other good stuff, some other writing only projects, and, it's always good, I mean, it's always good to come out for me, because it's, as much as I still appreciate being able to do what I do remotely and from Rhode Island when I come out here, it kind of just reminds me that I'm part of something bigger, because it's easy to feel like an island sometimes, no pun intended, to feel like, I'm part of something bigger.

Yeah, you're just a guy, you're just a guy with a computer and you're out at, whatever, Starbucks or whatever else. And like, day after day of doing that you can start to feel, I don't want to say lonely. It's definitely not lonely. It's because obviously friends and family, you know, it's more that it's just if, I'm sure we'll get a pros and cons of doing this the way that I do it and the way Will does it, but.

That's certainly a, we can call a con, I guess, or a downside is that at a certain point you feel a little detached, phone calls, Zooms aside. So long way of saying being here, going to studios, meeting with people face to face, it just kind of, it scratches that itch.

Lorien: That's great. I I find being a screenwriter very lonely, and I'm, like, the pandemic was awful for me, like, just because it just, like, doubled down on that so hard, Zooms were great and everything, but I need to be around people and yeah, I find it very lonely. And I find LA particularly lonely too, which is it's a strange it's just so big and now we have Zoom and everything that you can go a while without getting to visit a studio or going in for an in person pitch or something. So I'm excited that you get to do that.

That sounds fun.

Chris: Thank you. It it kind of just like I'll go back home and it'll be a little bit of like a nice shot in the arm sort of thing.

Jeff: Yeah. Well, it's funny though, Chris, when you mentioned like, I, in Rhode Island, I sometimes feel like I'm just a guy with a computer. I was I feel that way anywhere.

Like that is sort of just being a writer and to a certain extent, because it's such an isolated thought. But yeah, so it's relatable what you're talking about, for sure.

Chris: Again, as we're probably going to get into the, if there are benefits or drawbacks from living in LA versus not, I mean, I mean, that's something to consider is like, if you just do find yourself out here in front of a computer at a laptop at a Starbucks anyway, all the time, it's well, Is it worth the sacrifice?

You can be doing that anywhere. So sorry, go ahead.

Will: Now you've got, you're in the place that I love being. Writing can be a grind, but having written is a great feeling and you could direct it too. That's the best when you're, there's nothing more useless than a writer on a movie set when you're directing.

So obviously different, but it's great. There's no better feeling than like going onto a set, just to just have nothing to do and watch everything happen. So I'm happy you got there. I'm in a place where I am I'm grinding on something I've been working on, and I don't want to go too deep into it, because it just depresses people.

I'm in like, I'm in that place, no matter where you are, in the beginning, in the middle, the end the point where you get into the mid to late second act, and everything feels like it's coming, kind of falling apart around you, or you have, I have a ton of stuff written that I'm trying to sift through.

So yeah, I'm in a particularly lonely place. I do have an assistant who I will work with occasionally, but I made the brilliant executive decision to just say, I'm just going to go into the hole and just try to polish this thing up and do it all on my own. And so, yeah, when you said you're, I don't know how you phrase it, about it's not always lonely, but I'm in a, Yeah, I'm in a really, I feel like, when you're kind of lost inside of something that can be a great feeling. And it can also be a feeling where, I don't know, this job, when it's a job, the pressure of it, especially when you've done other things, you have expectations, like, it's, it can be pretty tough.

So I won't go into too much detail about what's going on with me, but it'll all end up fine. But it's, it, I'm in the wilderness a little bit right now.

Lorien: Yeah, that sounds tough. I've been there. I think we've all been there, right? Where, oh my God, I'm doing it. I'm doing the thing I set out to do and the thing I, gave up so much to do.

And it fucking sucks. Like, there are pieces of it, I know people don't ever want to hear that for real, but it can be brutal, and then it can be amazing, and then there's the in between parts, but when it's brutal, it's really brutal. Especially when, our lives outside of writing are always complicated and intense, and then you're doing something, you're writing something that's complicated and intense, and when I get there, I feel like I'm... well, I mean, honestly, I feel like I'm drowning, I should talk to my therapist about this, obviously.

But I don't think there's anything simple about this life. Even you know, Chris, you're gonna, you're gonna, you're directing and you're casting and that must be so exciting. But must be some like worries under there.

Chris: Yeah, of course, I mean, it's the reality is, look, I've been doing this long enough to know what kind of how these things play out.

Any one of them, not just this specific project, any of any project you're working on where it's, I don't know, kind of the way I always put it to say to like younger people that are just starting out. It's like, it's just, you have to have as many horses in the race as possible because there's no telling which one of those horses, if any, are going to come in.

And so, But at the same time, it's like the more you also have to kind of be like, all right, you don't want to phone in any of those either, as I mix metaphors. So yeah, it's again it's all those things. You're right. It sometimes can be a bit frustrating and everything else, but at the same time, and, again, to kind of stick with the theme here, maybe this is why it is helpful for me to be outside of the proverbial bubble, is, I, kind of, at the end of the day, I'm like, fuck it, I don't give a shit. And I do, like, it's a weird thing, like, I give a shit a lot, I work really hard for my career, and I worked really hard to get to this place, right?

But it's at the same time, it's like I, I've, I existed in the real world for a long time, like I, I had all manner of fucking awful jobs that I'm very happy to not have to do every day and I get to do what I love instead. But, at the end of the day, to your point, it's once you are privileged enough to be able to do it as your job, you want to do a good job.

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: Yeah. So what do you do when you're in that second act slide? Like how you decided to lock yourself down. I'm Chris. I'm interested in like how you struggle through like solving a story problem to like. So Will, you're in that space. You're like, I'm going on lockdown. How do you struggle? How do you find your way out?

Will: A lot of times it'll be like I usually I outline stuff. So a lot of times it'll be going back and just like even reading through the outline and kind of trying to really remember the character. Everything, anything that I've written, like, I always make some pretty firm decisions, if only in my head, about who the character is and the little idiosyncrasies and the things we want to show.

So I'll try to like, kind of just, I could spend a day or a week, even just like, going over every possible thing that this person, would do or has done. And sometimes that can back and unlock something. Cause a lot of times what will happen is it's, it'll be like a couple of, a sequence or some subplot.

And then I start to realize like, this isn't working. This isn't right. And so then you just kind of try to go back and find it. But I also find that, I joke with people, like I've been professionally writing for, I don't know, like 16, 17 years, something like that. And I feel like if you really distilled down the amount of time that my entire career has been produced, like the movies have been made, it's like three months of just blind, it's just like, like running on a high and everything's flying out of me.

A Star is Born was a little different because I worked on that for a really long time, but there, and I was working with somebody. So obviously, I had to be there every day but with a lot of the movies that I've written, like, it'll be, I think it's, there's a thousand quotes and jokes about like the timing for writers, but I need to feel like the gun metal of the barrel pressed against my head sometimes for it to come out.

And I think it's Mulaney, along those lines is Mulaney says the reason they give you 12 weeks or six weeks to write a script is so you can do nothing for five and a half weeks and then write the script in four days. And that's a little exaggerated but I, it was, it's kind of, it always blows my mind how it'll be months but then with the hard thing is that sometimes that the place I'm in now when you're really trying to see it and you can't see it.

There's something unconsciously happening in the work that you do in that place, that when it hits, it just flies out. At least for me. I don't know if that's true for you, Chris, or for you or like how it is, but that's how it is for me.

Chris: It is, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely going back to what you opened with.

Yeah, for me, it is very much about creating that outline first. Because, once I know where I'm going, and I'm pretty thorough with what I create on my outline. So, by the time I'm ready to start writing the actual script, I have like, kind of a point five draft. As like a first draft.

It's like every scene, and I'm sure you guys do some version of that similarly. But, I don't know, I kind of just go into it as I don't know. I'm able to bang out like normally I'll be like, I want five pages. That's every day. I always look at it. It's like, it seems. It seems less challenging where like, all right, five pages a day, 20 days, a hundred pages, maybe a couple more pages here and there, but that's, it makes it seem less daunting and then you're just off and running.

Right. And I think it's kind of just getting out of your own way. I mean, I don't know if it's a, I have this weird sort of like stratospheric self confidence that I probably don't, shouldn't actually have at that phase is what I'm talking about. Or it's like, I think for a minute you question, you're like, have I ever written a screenplay before? Does that...

Lorien: what is words? What is...

Chris: yeah, what is words?

Yeah, exactly. Right. And then...

Lorien: where am I?

Chris: Doing it? Right. Then you're off and doing it. And it's kind of like, all right, I'm just going to do it, just five pages a day. Or if and I think that's honestly, from a psychological standpoint for me anyway, where that initial like work, right. Benefits me because once I've kind of done a scene, every single scene in the movie and kind of paragraph form with slug lines, I'll then copy and paste and I kind of do it the same way I've done it forever and I enjoy kind of just taking a day to copy and paste all of those into Final Draft. Because by the end of that, I have like 13 pages of a script and I'm like, all right, that'll do for today. It's kind of like my favorite day of writing because I just technically wrote 13 pages.

And it's a lot less daunting to start from there than from a blank page.

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: I'm so curious about how you approach outlining. So for me, when I think, oh, I have to outline it, all this stuff comes in my head, like save the cat, all the rules, Michael Arntz, the pillars, like how to even start it and what it looks like.

So I'm curious how-- I start from theme, from character, and I'm like, I do exercises trying to figure out who my character is and what they want, like a lot of free writing to sort of understand my entry point even to the film and like where I want the midpoint to go. And then I start putting together the beats of the story and creating an outline, which is a new process for me.

But I'm wondering, like, you sit down, with Final Draft, and you're like, okay, how do you approach the outline, like laying it out, putting it together?

Chris: Yeah, it's probably what a lot of people listening you guys maybe do it's really nothing novel really It's more just if I have an idea that I've been kind of walking around with for a while that I think is good, can't seem to shake it.

That's usually a good sign And then I'll start writing maybe just I'll try to do like act one act two act three or actually I'll probably start with It's like a paragraph just to say like this is and then develop it further if it's still making sense and still exciting then I'll flesh it out a little more and do something like a beat sheet right And if that's working still, I'll flesh it out further, and then, I'll do character development stuff.

And then it's into the thing I just described, kind of like a step outline, where it's every scene of the movie. Yeah, again, nothing, it's nothing groundbreaking, it's just about doing it. So it's

Lorien: What I like about that approach, and Will, I'm curious about yours, is that it is very macro from the top down.

And that it isn't starting with the, you look at breakdowns of movies that have already been written, and it looks so simple when you see the outline of those movies or someone else breaking it down, and it's like you got to go higher than that, you got to go way big picture, act one, act two, act three, how does it start, what's the act two and then the end and I think a lot of emerging writers get overwhelmed by how to even outline or what an outline even looks like.

So it's helpful to hear different approaches to it. So Will, what's yours?

Will: Yeah. Mine's a little bit of like a chicken egg situation. I feel like a lot of times it could be the idea itself, like a bigger idea for a movie that just like, Oh, what if I did something like in this genre or like, something that I, and, but at a certain point it goes to character, I move to character pretty quickly.

A lot of times when I'm outlining, it's like the kind of big, if I'm, once I have a sense of what the movie is, cause there's three acts, it's all there's, everything's kind of in some fashion derivative of the I get comfortable with the fact that a lot of things have been done and done very well.

And I kind of embrace that and be like, Okay, it's like this, like that kind of like cliche thing people do with log lines, it's this meets this. And then this, a lot of times, I'll use like that kind of a framework to just even in my own mind to know like what the big Okay. Move what the big scenes in the movie are going to be like what the turn that just kind of comes quickly, like from looking at other stuff, not that I'm just copying those scenes, but just knowing like, Okay, I'm gonna write a movie about this.

And this is effectively what's happening to the character over the course of the story. And it's going to look a little bit like this. And so that's where the chicken egg thing happens, because I feel like I do tend to get that first. And then I go deep on the character and characters and try to really, like, just live inside their heads and sometimes like it can drive you crazy. It can be, you can do too much of that. There's no question. Like some of the days, like, especially when I'm in the placement now, and I'm just like, I have so much and so many options. And I know almost, I have almost too much.

I only have like, an hour and 50 minutes or two hours to tell the story. So it's trying to figure out, the most effective way and efficient way to pick from a lot. But yeah, I've never, I always say a character is big for me, but I don't think, I don't truly think characters are the first thing that comes.

I think it's like a sense of the movie and and the ones that it will be like. And then once I have that, I really go deep on the character and kind of let. That fill in whatever's going to happen in the story.

Lorien: That's great. I'm writing a feature right now where for the first time it wasn't character that came to me, it was the concept.

So I am struggling now in that place of how does that even work? Like how do I write something where I don't know exactly who she is and what she wants? And cause that's usually where it starts for me. So I'm like I feel like I have too many choices now.

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: Right. The world is so cool. And I love this setup. But now I'm like I don't know what's the plot? And so I'm, I have too many things to choose from, like, like you were saying Will, and so I have to make these choices, which feels like I'm breaking up with choices I didn't even know if I could have a relationship with. So it's, it's an interesting place to be, but you know, I just have to pick one, pick a pony, like Meg says, and take it and see where that takes me to see if that's the actual story.

So yeah, it, the choices are, can get overwhelming. I'm sure that's the same as being a director too.

Chris: But I mean, I think a lot of it is. Kind of just getting out of your own way to, where it's like, and that's earlier, maybe I said it a bit too flippantly when I was like, I don't give a shit.

It's kind of what I really mean is like. At the end of the day, no one, if like, if I don't get my five pages, no one's going to show up and kill me, no one's going to whatever it is. I'm like, I said, luck being lucky enough to be able to do this as my job. I'm going to do my best work on it, but I need to get out of my own way, not beat myself up over it.

And creating a framework for what you're doing in the form of an outline or whatever else or some character work, it only helps you, just kind of, it's less spin plates to spin at once, I guess.

Lorien: Yeah.

Chris: But I think more than that, just the psychological barriers are removing them knowing it's like, it's just people, I think largely we've all been there and fear being afraid to write poorly and being judged for our writing.

It's like, people, people like writer's block and everything else. And it's like, yeah, sure. I understand that happens. But in that moment, let's be honest, like if you're like, Oh my God, I have such writer's block right now. If someone texted you, you would just pick up your phone and then text them right back, right?

Clearly you have the ability to write. You're not quote unquote blocked, right? There's not some weird thing going on with your mind and body. You're just, you know that when you text your friend back about your plans for that weekend, you know your friend's not going to judge your text for like, Oh, that was a terribly constructed text, like, like there you are in the script.

You are. Yeah. Well, you think that right. Depends on who your friends are, I guess.

Will: I want to say something because I thought since this is a podcast that about as much fairly aspiring writers and otherwise, Chris did something a while ago that I want to go back to because I think it's huge and I even think right now, I'm a big sports fan. And one thing about every professional athlete is that from a very young age, they had the confidence to believe that they could become a professional athlete.

And I think confidence is a huge piece of this. And the one you said, stratosphere confidence, Chris, I related to that because. You do have to be a little delusional to believe to pick up your life. Like I went to school at the University of Delaware. I didn't know anybody in the business and I was going to be a lawyer and a bunch of stuff happened and I couldn't. And then I went out to LA and I just like, and I just knew it that back in those days, like I just knew it.

I, and it might not happen because there's no guarantee it will happen, but like, you do almost have to believe that it, that what you're writing is worthy of being on the screen and will be there. Like a lot of times you get these auteurs who get these like, say things that sound like, Quentin Tarantino has big ego, but he's great.

And he, but he loves his stuff and he believes in this stuff. And I think, building on the other thing you said, Chris, like when you have writer's block, it's just a lack of confidence. You're doubting your own ability to write what you're writing. Cause that's what I'm in a sense, Jeff and I talked yesterday, cause I almost bailed out of this.

Cause I feel like every minute I need to try to work. Cause I have a bunch of other stuff going on in my personal life, but anyway. This is kind of like therapy because I feel like what Chris just said is at the core of even whatever I've done, because your credits, the stuff you've done, whatever has worked in the past, like it all is gone when you start a new project.

And if anything, it just, it can raise the anxiety level because your expectations are higher, but confidence is everything like you have to believe in what you're writing and you don't know if anyone's going to give you any money for it if you're going to have a career doing it. But if you don't think it's great, if you don't think you can shoot like Steph Curry, you'll never shoot like Steph Curry.

And so I think having that, as much as anything else we're talking about with how the process works, like just believe in yourself and believe it in a way that, that you, it has to be in your soul. Like you really know that what you're writing is going to become a movie.

Lorien: I'm so glad you decided to come on the show.

I can see you probably tell I have glassy eyes. Cause I was like, why am I getting emotional? This is so emotional. This is like the best pep talk ever. Like, like you're reminding me that I do have to be a little delusional about my self and my ability to write this stuff. And it, maybe no one wants it, but like, I have to love it.

Will: You have to.

Lorien: In a really profound way and believe that not just that I'm the only one that can write it, but just that I'm going to write it.

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: I'm writing it. And that's really scary sometimes, though, because you have to set aside all the other crap, all the voices that you've heard all the shit going on in your life.

And like, and this deserves my time and energy.

Will: Right.

Lorien: Because that's a hard place to get to too, right? This deserves my time and energy. This is valuable for me. And that's enough.

Will: Yeah. I struggle with that a lot because it's like, because my job some days is every day is to sit around and make stuff up.

Like they'll be, my wife will ask, like how'd it go today? And a lot, and usually she can tell from the tone of my voice, however, I answer what the truth is, but it's, there's an apocryphal story about the Coen brothers. Apparently they worked for like 12 hours one day and all they came up with was the name of the band in The Big Lebowski.

And they were like, that was a good day. Good day. And so it's like that level of just, because they're so confident. And I feel like the days that nothing that you don't get your five pages, there's still, you have to believe you're still doing valuable work, but yeah, confidence. I did. I feel like what Chris said was like, I needed to hear that.

And I, it was something that like, At any level you get, it will, you can never get, if anything, I also think the identity of being a writer and then it becomes your job and then that compounds the anxiety and pressure because, you think, Oh, I should be better than this because this is my job.

And because I've done other things like it, that's what I mean by a compounding. So anyway, I'm talking a lot. I just, I haven't talked to human beings for a while besides my family. So that's why I was quietin the beginning. I'm like, Oh, yeah, conversation. This is nice.

Lorien: Is that because you're in Ohio or is that just because...

Will: I'm an introvert anyway, and I have three kids and I have I'm working.

And so yeah, I just I work I go home. I see my wife and kids and that's pretty much it. I soccer games and baseball games.

Lorien: That's awesome. All right, so we can talk about unless Chris, you wanted to add to that. Thank you for igniting that beautiful, transformative discovery for me and Will.

Will: Yeah, thanks, man.

Lorien: What did you say? You said delusional self confidence?

Will: Delusional optimism is what it is.

Lorien: Delusional optimism!

Will: I had an entire therapy session. One thing I gave up when I moved to LA, I had an incredible therapist and I couldn't do the zoom thing. So I probably should fly back and see her, but

Lorien: Or you could just come on our show every week.

Will: Right. She took apart a phrase for an entire hour that I was saying: delusional optimism. She's like optimism by definition, like, like it's just a state of mind, but I had convinced myself that thinking positively was delusional. Some, a lot of skeletons in that closet for me.

Lorien: Well, I. I, saw your movie, A Star is Born, so I feel like you put some maybe personal stories in there, a little, like we all do.

Will: Yeah, for sure.

Lorien: Well, so what did you give up when you left? You gave up your therapist, So I'm sure there are pros and cons to having moved and and the experience of how are you managing in your case, well, you established a career here and then you moved some things, but. What did you get and how are you able to maintain a career not in LA?

Will: I was in a fortunate position when I left, that I had a couple of things that, that gave me, I, I get things offered and I still, I'm like, I have a connection to the business just through, like, I only have a lawyer, but my lawyer gets stuff. And so I'm still, There's jobs out there.

I'm sure you miss out on opportunities like, if there's, but I really don't feel like I've missed out on much so far. But I also think I was in a pretty unique position. Like I was lucky that at the time I moved, I mean, even I was going to ask you when you were talking about the zoom thing, like even, I moved in the middle of COVID and everything went to zoom.

So even my first year away, I was doing meetings. I had, and like checking in with people. Which I don't do very often, but like I could just zoom became normalized. So like that that's me just saying, yeah, COVID was great. I could do zooms. That's why, but it really did feel like it, from that point, everything was already going, it was kind of moving that way.

So, so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think also because I kind of write features and Chris sounds like he's very prolific. I don't mean to make assumptions, but you just seem maybe it's because you have a lot of confidence right now. But I'm definitely like, well, I'll spend a lot longer. So I had a couple of projects that were set up and then I just kind of work on those and, I'm not going to build any, any like producing empires, developing shows with people, but I'm content to just kind of do this job the way I've been doing it.

And so yeah, I mean, I definitely give up, I'm sure there's some opportunities that I'll miss out on, but it was something that was the right thing to do for my family. And that was the main reason we did it.

What about you?

Chris: Yeah. So my, my thing is, so I had exposure to being here. So I lived there eons ago by now. So like my, I started off as an actor in this business. So I did that for about two years, way back when, and then moved back to the East Coast and have been there since. And that's when I started writing.

It's kind of like you're describing because even prior, I think I was a pioneer, not literally, but I was doing kind of at the time, like the Skype thing, right. All the time. I still maintain, by the way I, what the fuck happened there? Where you had like a golden opportunity. I know, like, I'm, I feel like that is the blacklist script that somebody out there has to write is like, how did Skype drop the ball during COVID?

How? Right. So like, anyway, so yeah, so I was kind of doing that a lot to begin with and lucky enough to continue to do it that way. And so, yeah, when this happened, well, you're right when so much of it transitioned over to zoom, it was a pretty natural thing for me already. And honestly, it became weird where in the past I would come out here to LA a lot more than I do nowadays.

In some ways, because I don't want to do zoom meetings while I'm in LA. I don't ,like some people would still prefer to do it that way. And it's like, well, I want to make sure that if I'm gonna go to LA I'm actually gonna see people in person. So, I think it's worth mentioning too, because obviously, and I don't know if you get this a lot too well, but being someone who doesn't live in New York or LA, that's the question I get all the time, whether I'm on something like this or a panel at a film festival or whatever.

Is like, do I have to live in New York or LA? Right. And it's probably the hardest question to answer. And I want to, I like, I want to be able to provide people with, actionable information if I can. And because it's so much down to what is going on with you personally and it's much, it's like I have no idea, like I have no idea. It probably matters what age you are to some extent, if you have kids or not if you know. There are a whole host of reasons why you should go if you can and at the same time, there are probably almost just as many not to, at least, so it's kind of just worked out for me, thankfully but I don't know, I genuinely don't know if it is the right path.

I don't know if there is right path, but I don't know if it is or not. It just worked out for me.

Lorien: What are the cons of it for you both other than, not having act like being able to go have an in person meeting here?

Chris: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, there is an element of what I talked about earlier, just kind of, you feel like at times that you don't have colleagues or coworkers. Yes, you have your reps and everything else. And that's great. And you have zoom meetings with producers, blah, blah, blah. All that stuff is fantastic, but there is something to be said about just, I don't know, just like going in for drinks afterwards with people who do what you do, like generally speaking in Rhode Island.

There are very few people who work in film and television.

Lorien: It doesn't sound like a hotbed of the industry.

Chris: Well, there's production, but most people who do work in film and TV there work on the production end. So there aren't many screenwriters or, and so it's it's nice to just have that kind of, what's the word I'm looking for?

Just like that in the trenches. Like you guys know, you get it. I get, we can have, have those conversations and there's a lack of that to some extent.

Will: I'd like to pretend that when I was living in LA, I was doing all those things, but the truth is that I just never did. Like I kind of everything you said, Chris, I kind of feel the same way as far as like, I would love to have colleagues and like people to, but I've just feel like it's been me alone for the most part.

Like it's, I remember when I first moved out there, I was like 23 and I was like, you just came, like, you're ready to do whatever I needed to do. I'll act, I'll direct. I'd never done any of those things. And, I remember that early on, I loved writing the most. But also I was doing the math on like, what was the best way to give me a chance to get a foothold in the business?

And I was living with a couple of people and they would do like drinks meetings, like all the time. And they were like building this network amongst, and I found out that like a couple of those people did end up making it and like work their way into TV. I think as far as I know, TV writing, like getting to know people and building a network and can help get you into a room, give you an opportunity.

That's what I understand. But for me, I was like, I would just stay home and work on my scripts every weekend, because I was working jobs during the week. And so all I did was, right. And so I felt like it's kind of always been me. I mean, I'm not in the sense of like, oh, look how great I've done or anything, but it's just more like I never really had the communal aspect.

And then anytime, like when I would say I go to a film set, like it would be fun to go and see all these people and. But I don't know. I've never really felt like that was a big part of my, like my experience out there. And I, and so when I moved, I really didn't give up that much. Like I, the thing I'll probably give up is like when the situation came up to write A Star is Born, I was living in LA and I, and somebody called me and was like, can you meet Bradley on Wednesday?

And I could. And the fact is though, honestly, if that happened again, it would be harder to be away from my family, but I could still get on a plane. There's not, there's not a ton of things that you, if it was something of an opportunity like that, like I could still do it there will, there could potentially be a price to pay if I had a situation where like I needed to go work on something intensely, like do like, mid production fixer work and I'd be away from my family for six weeks.

I guess that, that, that's possible, but thus far I haven't had anything like that, that I can point to.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, I literally, what you, almost to a T, what you just described, I just got done doing where I was out in London for six weeks on Greenland Two. And it was to your point, it was one of those things where it came up last minute and it's like, can you be here?

Can you leave in like two days? But that to me speaks to, that's why it's such a difficult question when people are asking, like, do I need to, because we're talking about life stuff. Like I had to make sure in order to do that, I couldn't just say, yeah, I'm a hundred percent. If I were.

If I were back to being 21 year old, Chris, it would be like, fuck yeah, of course I'm going to get on a plane and go to London. And, I'm already here, like I already made it. The, but like now I was like, talk through with my wife, make sure it works, like you said, the there's soccer and baseball and everything else.

And that's stuff. I don't want to miss it. This, so the priorities that you have, I'll use the word baggage, but not in a pejorative sense, but just the things in your life that matter that. It's such a difficult thing to really figure out. But it is down largely down to the personal and it's what you were saying was, is what Jeff was talking about before, where he was saying that sometimes he'll just feel like, I'm just a guy with a computer in a Starbucks here in LA.

Yeah. That's oftentimes, well, kind of in those sort of circumstances where people are asking, I'll be like, I don't know, if you think you're just going to move to LA and it's going to be largely you just sitting around and writing by yourself, you can do that here and save the money.

Because let's be honest, LA is an expensive place to live too. And on it goes. I mean, I'm probably overstating the obvious, but it's strange how that aspect of it tends to get lost in the conversation when it is such a big factor.

Lorien: For both of you, you both lived in LA. Before right in some context, so you kind of understood what you were leaving or not getting when you relocated and sort of understood the what it feels like to be in LA in the business. And I think a lot of emerging writers are like, I've never lived in LA I don't, I'm not going to I can't afford it or it's just not really realistic for my life and like I still think you can build something even if you've never lived in LA it's just, how you do it. Like, Austin Film Festival is coming up.

I'm gonna be there, right? So many writers are gonna be there in terms of how to make connections and I think there are a lot of valuable ways you can connect with quote, "Hollywood", but not actually have to live here.

I love it. I love living in LA, but I don't go to lunch and I don't go to, I mean, I don't go to drinks.

I've got a medically complex husband and kid and, like I have a lot of stuff going on. I can't, and I live in Burbank, it's far, I don't want to get on the five and meet you in Los Feliz, like, like, like, you're like, oh, it's north of the 405. I'm like, I don't even know where that is.

I'm not going.

Will: Do you do a lot of zoom meetings, like still, right? Like you...

Lorien: I had some, some studio meetings coming up. I have a pitch coming up and it's all zoom.

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: I, all zoom. And if, when I do meet a friend for lunch, I think one of the things that I do value about being in LA, when I do go out to lunch, I will, they will see someone they know and they'll introduce me or the other way.

Like there are these happenstance connections that happen that, can lead, that are just, it's just fun to be out in the world. I'm an extrovert, but everything is really on zoom. I talked to my manager on the phone and, on zoom. I talked to my lawyer, like it's email. It's all digital.

I ran a writer's room during the pandemic on zoom, and I had writers from mostly from LA, but like one was really far away. She couldn't have done it, cause of her family stuff, if we weren't doing it on zoom, I mean, we shot in person, but, so I think there is a way even for TV to do it.

I do think, like you said earlier, though, Will, for TV, you do have to have built those connections and know people and get recommended, like, you kind of have to be in it. I don't think it's, I don't think it's out of the con, it's not unrealistic to have a career as a writer, right, and not live in LA.

And yeah, did I say that?

Chris: No, I, especially on the feature side.

Lorien: Yes.

Chris: I mean, it's, at the end of the day, it's down to the material. It's like, It's, that's going back, I think I mentioned that I started as an actor, that's probably what I found most discouraging about being an actor is that it's like, there's so many factors that are out of your control that, that may prevent you from getting a role, getting a job at the end of the day, as writers it's all about the material.

And it's like, it's good to be able to go into a room and be able to pitch and do that and be fairly charming. And show that you're a normal person. That's all very important. It's kind of, it's about the printed page. And that printed page could have arrived from down the street or from around the globe if it's great.

Will: Yeah. That's, I mean, it's also, we're, I mean, Chris, I don't know how old you are, but I'm talking about 20 years ago. When I, so if you're like 20 years old and you're, trying to figure out if you should move to LA I mean, a lot of things have changed in 20 years. I'm not probably the best person to advise, like, from everything.

I understand the world is flattening of Hollywood, like that there's more opportunities. There's more refugees every day that are coming to other places. So I feel like it's not as odd as it was. But one of the first directors I worked with on an early Nick Sparks movie, he was in like Iowa or Idaho, I forget, but he like flew in once he got the job to direct the movie.

And it was, I remember he was the first person I met who like didn't live there. And I was like, wait, what? And then, but it was fine. He was still the guy who worked and so it's been possible for a while. And how long have you been doing it, Chris? How long have you been like living around?

Chris: So Well, I lived in Rhode Island my whole life, with the exception of those couple of years living in L.

A. But I've been after this in total. Basically, I moved out to LA when I was 20, right? Left, left college midway to come out here, and then was here for two years, moved back home, finished college, then came back out here for four months. Arrived the night before September 11th.

Will: Whoa.

Chris: And then after four months went back to Rhode Island for good.

And so, and then it was just constantly trying to keep writing and trying to make progress. And then I, and so finally, professionally now, I've been doing this now for 15 years. And I say professionally just in the form that it's my profession, that's why I make my living.

Lorien: You got paid one time. You got paid for the first time 15 years ago. And then you're a professional writer. That's the rule. When you get paid, you don't have to keep getting paid every year. Right? Like you got paid. You're a professional writer.

Chris: Yeah.

Lorien: Sorry, go ahead. I interrupted you.

Chris: No, that's it. That's the timeline.

I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jeff.

Jeff: So I have an interesting thing. I haven't shared this on the pod yet, and it's been a year, but for some reason I've been cagey about sharing this, but it's probably a good time. So everyone who listens to the show still thinks I live in LA because I did when we started the show and I lived there for a decade.

But my wife and I moved to New York a year ago and I've had this funny thing where I've been uncomfortable sharing that. I've been saying I'm bi coastal if people ask about it and I have this, I don't know if it's personal or if there's a professional thing I'm doing here, but I'd love for you to weigh in.

I have this thing, this identity thing where I feel more like a writer. If I live in LA, I feel more connected and industry adjacent. If I live in LA, my first movie came out last fall and that was like right when I moved and I've been funny about this. And I guess this is partially me sharing, but partially me asking you to weigh in.

Do you ever feel uncomfortable, like from an identity politics standpoint of being like, I'm not an LA writer. Cause I think I do. And I don't know what that is.

Will: Yeah. I can just say, I don't feel any way about it. But again, we've established, I was already just like living in an apartment and not seeing anyone in LA.

So I may be the wrong person to ask.

Lorien: No one knows where you live anyway.

Will: Yeah, exactly. So I know like 10 people in the business. So you guys are now like, like 11 and 12. So yeah, I feel like, I don't know, Chris, what have you, do you ever think about it?

Chris: No, not by this point. It's more the other way around, strangely enough.

So for me, it's when I'm in Rhode Island, which is the vast majority of times where I live, instances where it comes up what I do for a living, there's always like, I'm always met with some sort of like skepticism because it's almost It's like this feeling of like, well, why are you here? Like, what are you doing?

Like, why am I cutting your hair right nowat like Super Cuts? and why are you here? Like, and it's kind of a weird thing where it's gotten to the point, but honestly, in those small talk situations, I usually just lie when people are like, so what do you do for work? I'm like, I work in insurance because I know they're, well, because of like people generally do, that's usually a conversation killer because it's going to say like, Oh, tell me more about

Lorien: Do you really say insurance?

Is that what you say?

Chris: Yeah. Nine out of 10 times. Yeah. Because it's just, again, it's not exactly the most exhilarating topic, so no one's going to keep, no one's going to want a deep dive on insurance, but it's because the times that I have, and normally I don't, it's like I go around advertising it. Because why would I?

But like, if it comes up, they're like, Oh, do you have the day off today? And I'm Oh yeah. And I kind of work for myself and kind of, Oh, what do you do? And it's like, in the past, like, Oh, I'm I work in film and television. I'm a screenwriter. And there's, first of all, sometimes people don't even know what a screenwriter is.

And that's just, that's not limited to Rhode Island. That's just, sometimes people don't know. They think of a fucking screen printer. Like I make t shirts or something, with logos on them. And it's like, no, not that. And then and then it's, there's this, like I said, that skepticism of, like, so do you write, what kind of, do you write, real movies, or like, I'm like, yes, I write, like, real movies.

And, oh, okay, and do you, like, do you, like, write, like, all the words? And I'm like, yeah, I write fucking all the words. Like, all of them. Like, I don't pick and choose, like, which words. And so, like, anyway, and then it usually just kind of keeps going from there, and then There's a point where the inevitably always ends it like, Oh, do you know any famous people?

Right? And it's so it's so my long way of saying it's honestly more on that end. That it has like being a non LA screenwriter seems to matter more strangely enough than the other way around.

Will: Yeah, I would say I agree with that. The weird thing is I'm such an outlier. Like people look at like in my neighborhood, like when I, we first moved there people would do like double takes like, wait, what?

Why do you, what are you living here for? I was like, I don't know. Kids, my wife grew up here and, but so yeah I kind of can agree with that. I don't, I have, I'm not gonna, I don't know if I'll go so far as the insurance. I like that though. I like that just like end the conversation before it starts. But but yeah, if anything, you can feel like a little more like, in, in this kind of a community, there's not a lot of people doing this.

You're just, it's an oddball thing to do.

Lorien: Yeah, those are those questions though. Those follow up questions where you're actually explaining it or why you don't live in LA are a lot easier to answer than, oh really? What have I seen recently?

You're like well see I made a career of selling pilots that don't get picked up to shows.

Sure. Yeah. You haven't seen 'em because, so yeah. Well, yeah,

Chris: There can be an element of like. Of like pat on the head of like, well, good luck with that. Keep trying. You're maybe you'll make it someday. And, again, it's just like anything else.

I don't go in to those sort of situations thinking I'm something, but it's more like at a certain point where you start to feel like you've been, sort of like demeaned. You start to like, a little bit of like, hang on a minute. All right, hold on. Yes, I have made movies you might have seen.

So yeah, that the awkwardness that I'm describing is, can be real.

Lorien: Okay, so I'm obsessed now with coming up with pitches for you of things you can say, like, I run a donut shop, or I, like all the different things you can say, and then ultimately you get caught, right, which is the beginning of a rom com.

So I'm like, okay. How can I create this? That's where my brain goes.

Will: I like the screenwriting, screen printing, though. That's funny. I like that. I'm going to say, yeah, screenwriting, screen printing. I write the words that go on the t shirts. Just lean into it.

Lorien: I already showed them my t shirt. Well, but you get, so my 24th anniversary was yesterday and this is what my husband got me.

It's a t shirt that says, first of all, I'm a delight.

Will: Oh, that's great. I love that.

Lorien: So who wrote, which one of you wrote that?

Will: Hey, that's a good t shirt.

Chris: That's a sparling. That's a Rhode Island. Sparling Classic Yeah, my company proudly made that one.

Will: Chris, you did Buried, right? Yeah. So you should just say you work with Deadpool. That'll end it. Just like Deadpool. I put Deadpool in a box and just that'll end it. And then they will know you're real.

Lorien: That movie was so scary.

Will: I couldn't even, I, as Jeff told me, I couldn't even go I saw the trailer, I couldn't go near it.

I, it just, what a great idea, but holy shit, that's terrifying.

Lorien: Yeah, I have a fear of being buried alive.

Will: That's like the worst fear.

Lorien: I wanted to look for Ryan Reynolds. But I couldn't, I was like, Oh my God, but but people loved it. So you know.

Jeff: It's great. If you're not super claustrophobic, it is a incredibly tense thriller and it is, am I right, Chris, that part of the reason you wrote that was to possibly shoot it yourself?

I think it's an interesting, it kind of connects to your story too. Not being in LA and creating your own opportunities. Could you speak a little bit? Because, Buried is your debut. It's an excellent movie, and it is, it's envy making in how simple of a concept it is, but how you spin it out on the page.

Chris: Yeah. And it does. You're right. It speaks to what we're discussing here thematically, because it's I think now way more so than, then even, it's, the opportunities available to, to, for people to go make their own stuff. And I know it's so trite in a way to say that. And it's almost like, I'm sure there are people listening that just rolled their eyes really hard because they're tired of hearing that.

And it's not to say that they don't go out and make their own stuff, but it's more like that has, almost like I just described, it has, it also has a vibe of like patting on the head of like, "you'll get there someday," but I genuinely don't mean it that way. I mean, like it's a real avenue.

When I was younger and when I was coming up, I mean, I'm, I mean, there wasn't even YouTube, like it did not exist. Like still just start there, and in terms of like your ability to go make something on your own it really still costs a lot of money to do it. Buried was born out of that. Yeah, you're right. And it was like, how could I make a 5, 000 movie?

Because that's as much as I was able to kind of, set aside from working my regular job and, not go broke. So like, I was like, how can I make a 5, 000 movie? And. I would argue, I think that you could probably make a pretty good 5, 000 movie nowadays, given what's available.

Will: Yeah, I think that's true.

More, I mean, way more so than when, back when you wrote that. I mean, I feel like we're all carrying around video cameras that are, would have cost hundreds of dollars a day to rent, even in the early 2000s.

Chris: Yeah. And I mean, and again, it's a testament to where, I was at the time and where maybe a lot of the listeners are now.

Where it's like, i, in addition to just saying, Oh, this is great that, Ryan Reynolds is coming on. It's going to become this big, they have a real budget and everything else. I was like, fuck it. On top of all that, I don't have to spend my five grand because I need it.

Jeff: Yeah. Chris, did you, so I'm just curious, like in terms of navigating that you wrote the script, did you send it out?

Like how did it get seen? Because I, if the intention was to try to make it yourself, how did you make the bridge from self producing to now Ryan Reynolds is in my movie?

Chris: Yeah, it was a long journey even to get to that because it was once I started writing and everything else at the time it was looking through like the Hollywood creative directory, and the Hollywood representation directories, like hard copy books. God, I'm probably like, to people listening who don't know me are saying, this guy must be like 85 years old.

Jeff: What's a book? Yeah, I've never...

Chris: what's a book? I don't even know what that is.

Lorien: What's a directory? Is there a website?

Chris: Yeah, right. So anyway, so like doing that way back when I managed to make a couple contacts with some scripts I'd written and it was enough to keep some relationships going, like one or two, and Buried was like the one that finally did it.

It was one of those relationships.

Lorien: I love setting that sort of how do I make a movie for 5, 000 and setting that as like it-- we tell people, write whatever you want, right? Because it could be a spec, it could get you a meeting, but I do think it's fun to set some rules up and see if you can write within those, in that fence line and then you can come up with something really special and really fun with like, here's your budget.

Chris: Yeah.

Lorien: Here's the, here's your concept. How to design that. Even as an exercise.

Chris: Yeah, and Will, I don't know about you, but I mean, we were talking before, I was explaining that Rhode Island, there is a production base there now, right? There are people who work in the film industry pretty steadily in, New England.

Do you find that's the case with Ohio too? Because I feel like this industry is spreading out a lot too.

Will: There's definitely some stuff here. I haven't reached out to anybody, which will be shocking considering I didn't reach out to anybody, but I know it exists. I know this, there's people that are, there's like post production houses and they're shooting things here.

And so yeah, I think every... I don't know. I get Columbus is like a mid major city. Like it's, there's actually a lot of money in here, like here from like corporations and stuff. So there's like an art scene. It's growing up. And yeah, I think because of what you were saying, we were saying before, where you can, because things can be made, now, much more cheaply and actually be halfway decent.

I think that there's these little like, it's almost like fight clubs, growing up organically and all these little cities that have any kind of, creative kind of center. So, yeah, it's here for sure. I thought when you said what you were just saying, right, that If I were starting out, I think there's two ways, two things that I would do.

You think like Chris or think, just think big commercial. Like, I feel like those are the two lanes. That like you either write something that you feel like you could make yourself and figure out how to do it. Like Buried is a brilliant idea. I remember thinking that at the time it was like, what? Cause I was really like, it was early on.

How many years ago did that come out?

Chris: 15, 15 years ago.

Will: So great. And that was like such a great idea. You just go like, God damn, that's such a smart setup. So it's like, if you can figure out how to do something yourself or think just in terms of like, you're going to try to get noticed by executives, people who want to make a lot of money.

So don't be afraid to think commercial. Like that's unsolicited advice for, if I were 23 again and trying to crack in, just think in, in those terms, I think that being able to do it yourself as is a great way to, to start out.

Lorien: I mean, that's the great thing I think you were both saying about being a writer is that we generate the work.

Yeah. Right. And that we work, we generate, we write it, we have a script, we write another one. You just have to do the work. The come up with the ideas and put it on the page.

Chris: Well, I think it's important though too. I mean, maybe. Debatably for guys like Will and I, where we're not there.

That's I try to write a spec at least one a year still. And here we are in October and, or almost October, and I'm like, fuck, December's right around the corner and I haven't written this year's spec.

Lorien: But you got two months left. That's plenty.

Chris: Yeah, I do. Yeah. I have to finish doing that sign.  

Lorien: Eating things that you shouldn't be eating, if you write it in a week is fine.

Chris: No problem. But no, I think it's important. I think it's because we're, I'm not here. It's almost like putting a billboard up on Main Street too. Like if I, if you owned a business, you have to remind people you're in business. And, if ultimately in writing the spec, that's all that comes of it is that it's like, all right, reminds people that I'm out there doing the work and like, Oh my God, I haven't thought of Chris in a while.

Like, I don't know why, but I haven't, and now I have again.

Lorien: I love that because there are a lot of people in Hollywood who have ADHD and one of the symptoms of ADHD is out of sight, out of mind. You forget that person exists. So we have to remind people that we exist. It's not a personal thing, but you know.

I have loved this conversation because my husband keeps bugging me to leave LA and I'm like, well, I can move like an hour or two north, maybe.

I'm also in TV, so it's a little hard to do that. No, he's like, can we move back to San Francisco? And I'm like, I don't think we can afford it anymore, honestly.

So, but it's been great having you guys on the show. And we ask all our guests the same three questions at the end of every show. And I'm going to go back and forth about who starts to answer each one. But we're going to do Will is the first question, which is what brings you the most joy when it comes to writing?

Will: Oh, I thought I was going to be able to say my kids. Who brings me the most joy?

Lorien: When it comes to writing. Yes.

Will: That's a great, there's nothing like the feeling of when you first come up with something and going back to the chicken egg, like whatever it is, whether, but there's that moment, I mean, Chris with Buried.

Like you just, that idea had to pop into your head and you're just like, that's a movie like that feeling and the high and the excitement, like, I can be almost manic when that happens. And so it's not necessarily, because then there's always a crash when you have mania. So like, but I think that those, that feeling, and then just the most obvious thing is that when you hit fade out and you feel good about it, that's, I mean, so it's basically like the beginning or end, it's just not writing.

Everything else.

Lorien: Coming up with a brilliant idea and then executing a brilliant idea, that's all?

Will: Yeah.

Lorien: Easy. Okay.

Will: Well that moment, I'm talking about the moments at the beginning. That's fine. I didn't do that intentionally, but I definitely just said everything except the writing part.

Jeff: The 1 percent of what it's like to be a writer.

Lorien: Chris, what about you? What brings you the most joy when it comes to writing?

Chris: I mean, I don't know if it's the most joy, but I do, actually, I really enjoy this sort of stuff. Like, I love talking to other writers and other filmmakers. Again, maybe it's because I don't get to do it as much. But it's really kind of fulfilling in that way.

But I definitely do appreciate when like you, when you learn that someone whose work you really admire. Like might know of your work and it's like, not a fan, but as appreciate your work and you say, oh, so you learn, oh, so and so, it's, it's just, I don't know. It's just, there's something really kind of, I don't know, for the ego or whatever you want to call it, just rewarding.

It just feels like, oh, that's really cool. I never would have expected that person to even know who I am, much less, appreciate what I'm doing.

Lorien: Great. Jonathan's gonna ask the next question. He's gonna start with Chris on this one.

Jonathan: Yes. Okay. Chris, on the other end of the spectrum what pisses you off about writing?

Chris: Oh I think maybe just,

I think just kind of how you really can do so much work and invest so much of yourself into something that might never see the light of day. I mean, you, your script will get written. But we want it to go beyond that ultimately. And it's just, the odds are very stacked against us. And knowing that, I don't say I hate it. But that's probably if there's any, maybe a discouraging part of the process for me of writing, that's that.

Jonathan: Do you ever think about how many files are just sitting on your computer that nobody will ever see?

Chris: Yeah, I think we all have those files and of course, I mean, yeah, it's unfortunately the nature of the beast though

Jonathan: What about for you, for you, Will, what pisses you off about writing?

Will: Now he just has me thinking about all the projects that I was like, so sure were going to go

Lorien: I have a file called the graveyard folder.

Will: Well, also like the political machinations that can happen, which like that, that, I mean, this isn't my, I don't know what my answer would probably be something about, like, I think the hardest thing we've already kind of been talking about, which is like what it can do to your feeling like, that's the obvious answer, but he has me thinking about like, the way that we're all kind of like the Greek gods that move above us can change the fates of something.

So I had, I remember this pitch we sold and it was really, we had a bidding war was amazing. And then the studio president who bought it got fired like a month later. And I didn't know at the time and I still killed myself to write a great script, but then it had no champion inside the studio. And that thing just died.

It just went away because there was nobody to fight for it. And so the way that the kind of, that was a side I didn't realize, which is like, there's, it's a miracle any movie gets made and made well. But that you can like do something well do everything that you were supposed to do. And then just some like, corporate political, just infighting can just sabotage work that everybody was excited about and it could have lived anywhere else.

And anyway, that's it. You just made me think about like, there's a couple of things like that for me where I have, I probably just blocked them out of my mind because it bothered me so much. Yeah. That's a really tough part of it is like, just that at the end of the day, even though you have total control on the page, oftentimes you have no control as to whether or not it gets made, it's just other people will make that decision.

Lorien: Yeah. That's awesome.

Will: If you come up with the 5, 000 idea, then that's the cool part.

Lorien: That's the, not like the million dollar idea anymore, it's the 5, 000 idea.

Then it's fucking Miller time.

Jeff: The last question we ask, and we'll start with you this time, Will, is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give to that Will?

Will: That's a good question. I don't know. I'm sorry to have the dead air. I don't even know what...

Lorien: You kind of answered it before. Didn't you?

Will: I probably did. I'm trying to imagine the exact circumstances of it. I don't know what I would tell them. I'm just thinking about the time travel implications of what would happen. Ripples.

Lorien: Then would go to a bakery that Chris pretended to have owned and set up shop in the back.

You answered it before you said, I wish I'd known when I was first here in LA, do you guys remember what he said? Because I remember thinking, oh, he answered the question.

Will: It's recorded. Good.

Jeff: Maybe, I mean, you probably wouldn't change much. I mean, all your friends were out networking and you were grinding on the page, and that has yielded a career for you.

So it's interesting.

Lorien: Anything you wish you would have known or been prepared for that would have helped you?

Will: Oh, I wish somebody had told me that TV, I told Jeff this story yesterday, but I wish somebody had told me that Warner Brothers television and Warner Brothers films are not the same thing and that you can get in an immense amount of trouble if you're in a car with a film executive and start talking about your TV pilot when you're supposed to be writing a script for the film side.

I just, I didn't know that. And it created this like shitstorm. I just like blindly, just like basically it would be the equivalent of just like telling someone you're cheating on them and not knowing it. And then you find out like, Oh wait, they're not on the same team. I thought I was still working for Warner Brothers.

So that's a little, that's something I actually genuinely wish I would have known because it would've avoided a whole lot of headaches.

Lorien: Okay. So Jonathan said that you said, if I was 23 and trying to crack in, write something to make yourself or make yourself or think big commercially.

Will: Oh yeah, those two. I already kind of, yes, that's a good, that's good advice, yes.

Lorien: But I do like, what you're saying is like, some of that stuff you have to learn while you're doing it. Like when I first moved here, and I didn't move to LA until I was in my 40s. So like, I came much later. And mine was that generals are not interviews. I thought when you go to coffee and you meet someone, I was like, interviewing for a job, but like how they actually work is the last two minutes are, Hey, well, why don't you send me your script?

Or Hey, I'm going to introduce you to someone. Like the whole meeting is just a date.

Will: Oh God. Generals

Lorien: I didn't know that for a while. What kind of ding dong mistakes I made and who I got, who was like, Oh God, she's crazy. Right.

Will: You give them your best idea, they give you your worst, their worst idea, and you get a free bottle of water.

That's it.

Lorien: Yeah.

Will: When you're starting out, that's what it was. I stopped doing them because I was like, this is ridiculous. This is so dumb. Nothing was coming from it. That's good advice though.

Jeff: Almost every writer we brought on talks about how frustrating generals are. It's so interesting. It's especially lately.

It's like an emerging theme on the show.

Lorien: I love generals. Because all I want to do is talk, obviously, and I love getting to know new people and finding out what they're excited about and, I love it. And yeah, it's a chance to talk to someone so that I'm not here in my basement alone.

Jeff: Yeah.

Okay, Chris, same question. If you could go back and give yourself advice, what would you say to that Chris?

Chris: I'd be like eat something, dude, for starters. Then it, the for me, like it's screenwriting you're talking about right now, like life advice. Right?

Jeff: Whatever jumps in your head, I'm curious.

Chris: Well, screenwriting, it would be just reading scripts. Because it's, I think back and I never read scripts. Like I didn't even, and again, sign of the times being what they were, but it's not like now you can get your hands on basically any script in a second or close to it. Back then it's like, it was tough to find actual screenplays.

But I didn't even think to do it, and it probably wasn't until I finally did start reading screenplays pretty regularly later on in my life. That I became a much better writer and I probably, who knows, maybe I could have trimmed a year, two years, maybe five years off that journey. And it wasn't based on a hubris.

It's just truly, I think like, Oh, I don't need to read, I have my own stuff. It was more that, and to this day, and given how kind of ubiquitous they are, it really does shock me when I'll meet writers and they just like. It's free. It's free. It's a free education and I would put it up there with maybe a just as good as an education as you might get as a like, I don't know, third rate college course in screenwriting, if not better because it's free.

So I guess that.

Lorien: It's good advice for those of us who have been doing this for many years, just to keep reading them and see what's new and how people are putting stories together on the page. I think it's great advice. I think both your advices is good. Advices is a word now, just so everybody can hear. I just invented it. It's a thing.

Well, it's been amazing having you both on the show, and I love your perspective, and now I'm going to go back and report to my husband about can we do it or not. And really, and I'm a fan of both your work, just to validate you, Chris. I mean, Buried was intense, but, I do love looking at Ryan Reynolds, so I, I made it.

I made as much as I could, but it was scary. And I loved A Star is Born. I thought it was lovely. Yeah. So thank you both for your work and I hope to see more of your work soon.

Chris: Thank you for having me.

Will: All right. Thanks.

Jeff: Thank you so much to Will and Chris for coming on The Screenwriting Life. We loved having you both.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.