160 | Documentary Filmmaking (And Writing) w/ Monique N. Matthews and Linda Goldstein Knowlton

Believe it or not, documentary filmmaking has lots in common with traditional narrative feature filmmaking...tune in today to learn why, with two award-winning documentarians!

TO SEE MONIQUE'S DOC (screening this week!): https://www.birthingjustice.com/screenings/

FOR MORE ON LINDA: https://ladylikefilms.com/

TO JOIN OUR PATREON: www.patreon.com/thescreenwritinglife

TRANSCRIPTION

Documentary Filmmaking w/ Monique N. Matthew and Linda Goldstein

Meg LeFauve: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien McKenna: And I'm Lorien McKenna. And today we're thrilled to be chatting with Monique Matthews and Linda Goldstein about documentary filmmaking. Before we jump into our conversation with Linda and Monique, we wanted to remind you about some very exciting news about the Austin Film Festival this year.

In addition to being there in person and doing our live story panel, in addition to some other panels, we're going to be throwing a party! A TSL party in partnership with Final Draft.

Meg LeFauve: And we are really excited to have our partners in final draft. I mean, not other than it, you know, it is the industry standard.

You all need to know it. But they're just such a great, great company to work with. And the party is going to be on Saturday, October 28th, right after our story workshop at Steven F's Bar and Terrace.

Lorien McKenna: So come and meet us and maybe even get some swag.

Meg LeFauve: Oh, some swag, some TSL swag, some final draft swag. I would like some final draft swag.

Come, come you guys. Okay, let's get into it.

Monique N. Matthews, a previous TSL guest, if you'll remember, is a writer and teacher and was featured as one of Daily Variety's 10 writers to watch her Christmas film. A holiday in Harlem was nominated for an end. Double ACP image award. And she most recently directed birthing justice, a documentary about the racial disparities of childbirth healthcare in the United States, which debuted on PBS in April.

Lorien McKenna: And Linda Goldstein Knowlton is an Emmy nominated filmmaker working in both documentary and scripted stories. She produced the award winning film whale writer and co directed the documentary the world, according to Sesame street, which aired nationally on PBS. Her other documentaries include the award winning We Are the Radical Monarchs and Somewhere Between, as well as Code Black, which was the basis for the CBS one hour drama.

Her most recent film, Split at the Root, made its world premiere at South by Southwest in 2022 and is now streaming on Netflix.

Meg LeFauve: Welcome, you guys.

Monique N. Matthews. Thank you.

Meg LeFauve: We're so excited to chat with both of you about documentary filmmaking. But first, we're going to be talking about our week or what we like to call Adventures in Screenwriting. Lorian, you go first. How was your week?

Lorien McKenna: It was good. I finished the play that I was writing, so I feel really proud about that.

It's a short 20 20 pages, and it was just a first draft, so I need to you know, Go back and see what it actually is. And this morning I came up with a high concept for a sci fi show that I want to write. Which is different for me because usually I write into character and then discover what the world is.

And so this is like, I have a title, I have a high concept, I have a world. And now I, you know, just have to write it down and build it into a TV show. But, so I'm excited to get into that. I am finding a little bit of a challenge to manage all of the different me's that need to be managed. The writer me, the teacher me, the strike me, the friend, mom, family, oh god and I signed up to be a room parent, you guys, for sixth grade.

That’s me! I'm not sure which version of me that is, but I can tell I'm going to have some.

I thought I'm going to do it and it's going to be great. And I will, whatever, I lost my mind. I, I didn't realize how many needs there needed to be for all these things. So I not quite sure what I'm going to do, but the management, of course, the first go to writer, the first me to go is the writer me.

So I'm trying not to do that. Yeah, that's it. That was my week. I made some decisions.

Meg LeFauve: Monique, how was your week?

Monique N. Matthews: This week has been great. I just finished a narrative one hour pilot based on birth injustice because people are like asking so it's it's about this nurse. And this midwife in this OBGYN who take over a labor and delivery unit in the hospital.

So I'm pretty excited that I got that vomit draft out and I'll go back and work on that some more. So, and I'm working on a book right now with Carl Douglas. He was the he was on the OJ Simpson case. He was. The lawyer under Johnny Cochran, he was Johnny's mentee. And he's just like this phenomenal lawyer in Los Angeles.

So just kind of documenting his like how to success is tentatively called I will drag your ass to greatness.

Meg LeFauve: I love it. I love it. And I'm so excited. You're writing the narrative of your doc because I loved your doc and I know the characters you're talking about. And I was so, oh my gosh, I was in, I just thought they were so wonderful.

I was enthralled. So I'm just that just makes me so happy that you're doing that. And if I can help in any ways, please let me know. Okay, Linda, how was your week?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: My week I have no, I don't even know what, what is a week. What is a week I've been, I've been on the road 10 days. I think I've started a new documentary.

So I went to New York from LA. I shot for a couple of days and then we are doing an impact screening series of split the root, my current film. And so we went to Atlanta, Charlotte. El Paso and I'm now in Phoenix. This is our 6th screening. We started in D. C. in New York a little while ago. So this is our 6th screening for now.

Then we're taking a 2 week break and then we're going to Orlando and San Diego. So there's that. That's a lot. It's a lot. And Monique knows so well, even though you plan these things and out in a while, and you've gotten all the invitations out and you've sent them to your list. And it's literally to the day of, like, following people, following up, following up.

Oh, wow. We have 95. RSVP is, oh wow, we have 30 people in the theater. So, and then again, being reminded, because I'm traveling with the film with one of the protagonists, and now with one of the other producers, it's, you know what, the people that are in the room are the people that need to be in the room.

So, that was a good reminder. And then I just got off of a notes call on a Doc that I'm producing.

Meg LeFauve: you've got a lot going on, lady.

Monique N. Matthews: Happy to be here with y'all.

Meg LeFauve: Linda and I have been friends for decades and I know that she's always this busy. Don't let her fool you. She is always, she is a go getter. My week is super easy because I was in family stuff up to my eyeballs and vortex that included.

A canceled flight, then I had to run and find a hotel to get back there in the morning. And then the plane had a flat tire. I didn't even know that was a thing, by the way. And how do they change a flat tire of a plane in 15 minutes? Did not, and I wasn't confident about it, but we did okay. And then I'm prepping for a talk that Lorraine and I are going to give at Stevens College for a screenwriting conference that has kind of Pretty much absorbed every moment of my time.

Lorien McKenna: And there's the keynote me, the keynote speech me. And I've been working on videos for that.

Meg LeFauve: And the keynote and the, you know. So basically all is to say I've done no writing at all. Because I've been doing all of those things and I'm trying not to feel guilty about it. And I'll worry about it later. Like when I'm done with this keynote with Lorian.

And we have the day off in Missouri. Because we do. So I'm like, I'll write on that day when I'm in a hotel room in Missouri. No, I won't because I'm Lauren's gonna be like, let's go to this fun place.

Monique N. Matthews: I was like, please get some barbecue when you go to Missouri. Like that was one of my favorite things. I need to eat the food of the culture wherever I am.

Missouri barbecue is really good. Oh, okay.

Meg LeFauve: Good. Now I know. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Let's get into this ladies. We're going to start at super basic for our listeners. So, what is a documentary? That's maybe too broad. But, you know, what is, what makes it different than a scripted film? How do you guys approach it?

How do you guys approach documentary versus you're both also producers and creators of fiction? So, for you, what is that like, that divide, that difference?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Well, it's, I mean, in a, in a super basic way a documentary. See, now that I'm saying that there are several kinds of documentary. The big general idea of a documentary is that it is unscripted that filmmakers that we are a fly on the wall and that we are following real people around.

And nothing is. The only, nothing is written. That said, asterisk, there's also those historical documentaries and those are written, right? You have the narrator saying in 1843, blah, blah, blah. And and the, that archival footage comes up. And so those are written. Those are written in the idea of we are telling you a true story that happened to people.

Again, couple more asterisks. Both of those kinds of documentaries, and I'm probably forgetting something, is who's telling the story? Whose lens is it coming through? You know, where's the lens? Pointed there. Is it like that? You know, and so all of those things go into so even though that's not written.

It's edited. I don't know. Would you consider that written or would you consider that edited anyway? There's there's kind of all that. The, the nuance that goes into it, but documentary. Not written.

Meg LeFauve: Okay. Monique, what do you

Monique N. Matthews: think? For me, I mean, it's certainly unscripted, but there's a great deal of research that generally goes into the documentary filmmaking and it should certainly, I think that.

Sometimes a mistake happens when people think that it's, you know, real life and it is real life, but it is the parts of life that draw an audience as well. I mean, so you want to make sure that you are as prepared. It is possible for things to go off script because you're not telling people what to say, but when you do your research within a, within the topic matter and you do all of your research, then you're prepared for, you know, you speak to someone and they go a completely different direction and you were not anticipating or preparing that.

But I, I've learned that the more prepared I am, the more. That my interviewee trust me and once they trust you, I mean, that's that's the gold right there. So I think that 1 of the things in documentary filmmaking is that you really need to garner the trust of the interviewee. I mean, I'm sure as a filmmaker, you definitely need to actors trust.

You need to different peoples, but it's a different thing when someone is telling you their own story and putting themselves out there and feeling naked and they're not, they don't make a career out of putting themselves out there in a particular way.

Meg LeFauve: And how do you, oh, sorry, go ahead,

Lorien McKenna: Laurie, when when you get an idea or like you read it, read an article or you do research and you come across something, you're like, oh, this is a great story.

How do you know if it's a documentary or a scripted show that you should dig into? When do you make

Monique N. Matthews: that decision? You know, I think you start with what you have. So, you know, and I'm sure Lindy could talk to that as you introduce her with. Cold black. I mean, whatever the lens you have for the the medium to tell this fantastic story, you take it.

And however, it kind of morphs and manifests after that. I mean, it is similar to scripted writing where, you know, you would like a screenplay, but if it starts out as a book, if it starts out as an article, you want that source material down and you want it to make sure that you capture the nuance of it and then, you know, see how, how it can you know, live in different spaces.

Interesting. So if you're an

Lorien McKenna: established documentarian, and you have an idea, you use the tools that you have, and then it can develop into something else through people seeing, like, what you were talking about, right? You made this beautiful documentary, and then people were craving more of it in a scripted format.

So you could, you could do that. Okay, that's interesting.

Meg LeFauve: And when you're deciding, okay, this is a documentary, I'm, I'm not going to do scripted first, I'm going to let, do the documentary, Monique, you were talking about when the person you're interviewing perhaps goes off of where you thought they were going to go or what movie you thought you were doing.

How do you even, let's just back up a step, how do you even pick who the main character or the protagonist is? Because, you know, people think documentaries don't have protagonists, but as Linda mentioned in the opening, they do. You're traveling with your protagonist. Is that something you try to pick beforehand, or do you kind of really have to let them choose you, i.

e., you're starting to film and go and it's, and that person is starting to come

Monique N. Matthews: forward? You know, it's kind of, you know, just listening to this show a lot and gaining so much for it. It's like sometimes you can say, Hey, you know, we're doing this documentary. We have this great person who we think is going to be very charismatic because they have the story.

And then it's kind of like when you're writing a script and someone else can just steal the, they just steal the page. They just steal the room and they become more compelling. And, and, you know, for me, I kind of, I kind of went with that. I kind of was like, Oh my gosh, this person is the hero. And when I identified the hero of our, of birthing justice and she, we, we worked with and I'll, I've, I've told her, I was like, Ebony Marcel, she's a midwife at In Washington, D.

C. A community of hope. And she's just really she's just incredible. And so as we were in pre production, we were talking to her and she certainly was giving, you know, a great deal of background information and just, you know, things to know. But then when you see her on camera, she just really becomes compelling.

And you're just like, Oh, my gosh, I just want to follow you. And I had the opportunity after her. Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry, there's something else Linda can talk to, you know, talk to is like, you really need to get people's trust really quickly because we had like one day for each of these interviews and we went to four different regions and that's a, that's a lot to get people to open up.

So. One of the benefits of having Ebony and centered in DC is we had, we kept going back to her. We had to keep going back to DC for other things. And she kept talking and I was able to just say, Hey, this happened here. Well, what do you think about this? And so really kind of able to interweave. And that was just kind of kismet that just happened.

But I think you really have to be willing to, you think it's going to be one person or you hope that like my producers thought it was one person and. I just kept, I was like, no, it's her. And I just kept following, you know, the eye of the story.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Yeah. And, and, and yeah, to piggyback on, on some of that is, well, one way that I think about documentaries too, is you have a central question or your idea, right.

And then you throw out all these fishing lines, like you said, and, and, and see where some of them go. And you see that some of them are. Wow, that's going nowhere snip, you know, and, and then, but then you're with that person. You're like, oh, you're a surprise, you know, and and then you follow there and you, you know, cut off all the, you know, you, you try not to cut off the fishing lines until you actually have to, you know, cause it's like, what if that person surprises you or that, you know, location, something happens.

So that's. That's kind of one way I think about it, too. The other thing I just wanted to mention because coming from both scripted and. Documentary cause someone asked me once and I didn't have a good answer, but our friend producer, Julie Lynn had the great answer. She said, what, you know, what's the difference between being a producer for scripted films and a director of documentary films?

And she said, as a producer, your job is to eliminate all surprises for the director. And as a director of documentaries, your job is to be open to all surprises. So I kind of, that's good. Right.

Meg LeFauve: You know what I love about what you guys are saying, because for me as a fiction writer, I find it's exactly the same.

Like I might decide what I think the story is, but then when I get in there, I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is not the story because where was this character and where are they coming from? And there's so much trust involved. In that process of writing fiction, too, you have to trust, okay, Muse, I don't know why this person has shown up, but I'm gonna take a day or two, and I'm just gonna trust and see where this goes.

And so I just have a question about, and, you know, you're saying you have to do it very quickly. Do you have any advice about gaining trust? Because in a weird way, we have to gain trust with ourselves when we're writing fiction, but I think it's, it's, it's relevant to both. How do you gain your character's trust?

Research

Lorien McKenna: this one.

Monique N. Matthews: Yeah, three things. One is to do all the research about what they're doing beforehand. Read as many articles as you possibly can about them. There were come to it with the utmost respect. The second thing is to be completely open and present in the moment and trust be present in a moment.

And that's the third thing is trust. Like, really just they need to like, it. They need to be willing. If they get up and walk away that you don't make it about you. And for me, that's what trust really boils down to when you're a documentary filmmaker is so many people make it about them. And I've seen, you know, and doing documentaries there, everybody makes a mistake and you, you, you, you want the good mistakes, right?

That's like, Oh my gosh, this is better than ever. But I've seen so often where. You know, sometimes a filmmaker will leave out really critical and crucial information because it doesn't fit their narrative. And I think that interviewees, they know when you are not there and you're not open and that willing to listen to their story.

So for me, it's trust. It's you know, doing your research and it's about being in the moment and being present. It's so

Lorien McKenna: interesting. I when I work with a character. I have to let go of what I want them to be, what story I think they should tell, and I have to be available to let them tell me the story so I can tell their story.

And it's really hard, because sometimes when you don't like a character, it's because they're holding back from you. And you have to like, go and meet them where they are, like, even if you've done bad things. I'm rooting for you. I love you no matter what and it's that building trust with your characters so that they trust you to tell their story.

Not

Meg LeFauve: to be present. Yeah. Not your version to be present with them. It's exactly the same. I love it so much.

Lorien McKenna: It makes me imagine that I could actually understand what it's so baffling when a documentary is I watch them and I'm like, wow, how do they put all this together? But Because creatively, it seems similar, you're just dealing with real people.

Which is a bit more

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: complex.

Lorien McKenna: It's a little bit more complex, but it feels like it's something that, not that I'm getting to go do it, but

Monique N. Matthews: one could. Linda, is it the same for you? You totally could, Lorian, but you don't.

Lorien McKenna: Now we're making a documentary. Great. Okay,

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: fine. I totally agree with Monique. And, I...

And I, and I'm, I would love to hear from the writers of how you know, if it's similar or different, but it's, it's absolute honesty with the people because it's, I'm being honest with you, I might not tell them my whole family backstory or all of that, but I have a very honest conversation with them about who I am, what we're, the big picture of what we're trying to do with the film, why I want to make the movie, who I hope sees it.

Okay. Bye. Bye. And, and the big thing, and part of that trust is you can stop the camera whenever you want. You will see a cut of the film before it goes out and you have a voice in that. And so to really lay down the idea that you are a collaborator in this. Peace, you know, I'm not here for the train wreck.

I'm not like, I'm not 60 minutes or whatever. It's like, I, I'm drawn to this person and this topic because of an emotional reason. And, you know, I think also, right, people can sniff out your inauthenticity. Right. That's the word. Right. So that. You know, they're gonna, they're gonna know if you're like, I love you, or like, let's have this conversation.

And yeah, and it's an ongoing conversation, even though sometimes it's a really brief conversation, but hopefully with that research, you can talk to them on the phone ahead of time or zoom or something. Sometimes you can't. But it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's so maybe as a writer, like, how honest do you have to be with

Meg LeFauve: yourselves?

Exactly. And that's what we talk about. Lava, right? Because sometimes as a writer, you run away from it. And, and, and, and create drama or do whatever you need to do. But no, you just have to stay present and be, and be on it. So now, okay, so you've got your interview. You think you found your protagonist.

How do you create a narrative? How do you create a goal for the character or narrative? And does that happen in it? Edit, or is that happening as you're recording? Are you editing while you're still recording? So you're trying to find the narrative while you're still interviewing more people. Like how, how does that work?

Monique N. Matthews: Well, I think for me, I might be a little different than Linda because though it's not written my questions ahead of time and I do share them. With people, it, you know, it provides a scope. It's like, this is, this is kind of where I'm thinking about. And, you know, to build the trust, I'm giving this to you a week ahead of time, as much time as possible for them to review it.

Some people just don't, and they just want to go off the cuff. And that tells you who you're talking to and other people, they want to see it and they want to go through it. And, but I find that that is the first kind of writing for me, like, because I'm, I'm establishing a narrative there. They can interrupt it.

They can shift it a different way, but there is a narrative there. And then just going and talking to them, there's a narrative. So I think, you know, Linda asked the question, is it writing? Is it in writing? Is it in editing? And it's one of those processes where I just find you, you know, like I say, a writer writes, you're constantly as a, as a director of a documentary film, you're constantly, you know, re re re editing, rewriting for me, it was as the writer, it was like, that was the narrative.

That was the first narrative. Then I'm there and I'm talking to them and I might start asking different questions just based upon. What the environment looks like. And then I always say to them, Hey, tell me what's important to you about your city, because, you know, still the original sex in the city, they're still big fan of using the city as a character, and so we went to four different regions and the city is always a character that always informs you about people.

And so for that, that's a whole different type of writing. So for me, the writing happens constantly because I want the narrative of not just what I see as an outsider coming into a place, but what they see, what they hold is value. Like, so there's a thing in Birth and Justice where we go to Augusta, Georgia and I was like, hey, you know, where should we go?

What symbolizes Augusta, Georgia? And every time people see it, the first thing you see is the statue of Jane Brown in the middle of Main Street. And I would have never thought that, but Every single person that we talked to say, Oh, you got to do James Brown. You got to do James Brown. And then you look at the history, you know, Augusta was, was, was founded by Augustus who founded Georgia and in the middle of, you know, one of the most, you know, Formerly Red States is James Brown being heralded, this, this son of a sharecropper.

And I think that that says so much about the town and, and, and what it's doing. And so that's what, I mean, I think you're constantly rewriting and writing all the time. I love that. What about you, Linda?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Yeah, I mean, I guess it's interesting. I have to think about this. Why I don't think of it as writing.

And I totally agree with what you're saying. I always think of it as. Editing and I, and I always my editor is like, is your closest collaborator. Right. And I'm, it's I can't, I don't think like an editor. I, I think in all of these kind of bigger ideas, and then I hone in on, you know, something that someone says, and that could lead to something else.

But I, it's really hard for me to. Do selects and and they're, they're not going to, they're not going to give you the answer. You think they are right. So then you are going to go off on some other direction. And in terms of how to find the story, it really is. What they say, what they're doing next, what they're, you know, where they're going.

And so it's really that following it really is that fly on the wall. And then also being able to step back and get, Oh, it's the establishing of they live in Augusta, this has formed their worldview. This is, you know, where they're living their life and doing their shopping and going to the doctor and, and all of that.

So it really, so place truly as a character. But for me, I kind of thought, I feel like what are you doing next? What happens now? What can I, can I come to your job? You know, let me see you in all of your different.

Meg LeFauve: Do you feel like though, when you pick a documentary, you've kind of chosen somebody who already has a goal so that there's some drive to the documentary already, or are you really picking just a topic and looking for drive or, you know, somebody trying to change the world, you know, how do you activate it?

If it's just a, Social political idea, how do you create a story out of that? Because even in documentaries, you are creating narrative for us to follow.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Right. I, I feel like for the films that I do, that there is a person who is driving the idea. So there is that person mag, I think you said of, you know, the, that the people in the center of the films that I do are always, always, always striving.

You know, have no idea if they're going to make it. They don't they're just going like this. And so it's following people as they're striving and as they succeed or not, or where that takes them. So I do feel like most of the films have a. Have a driver,

Meg LeFauve: they have that want that can start to create narrative and that we can want for them to get and then suddenly we can have conflict to it.

And so even there, even in documentaries, you're looking for that, want that drive. Monique, is it the same for you in terms of

Monique N. Matthews: being on the show right now? Because for me, it was, it was about the topic. It was you know, when I was approached by the executive producers to board this project, it was like, oh, we want to look at black maternal health in the U.

S. And I was like, oh, you know. That's interesting. And I had no idea that it was this epidemic that's just hiding in plain sight. And so it was the topic. And then I started realizing on social media, all these women who I knew for years went to college with was like, Hey, can I, they would DM me. Can, can I talk to you?

This happened to me, people I was working out with, I was in this workout group. And, you know, this one woman almost died. Like, and she was like, Mo almost died. And I was like, Oh my gosh. And. You know, so many women experience shame in a way that they shouldn't experience. And so for me, it was that the topic just really just.

Opened it up and then the people appeared. It was kind of, you know, very much like build it and they were come. And so I'm working on another documentary right now. And again, it's topic driven, but so many people come and they have all these different stories and we're going to do it regionally as well.

And I'm just really excited. We're really early in it, but I'm just really excited about how topics just draw out. The human, just the human need for expression, you know, and just allowing that, like, I love giving voice to the voiceless or the invisible. I like looking at things that are hiding in plain sight.

My next documentary is looking at the, what's called African American tradition of stepping, which is something that happens in African American fraternities and sororities, Kamala Harris is in a sorority. And. They've actually been used to mold, to shape and mold these leaders. So I have footage of like, you know, Kamala Harris Martin Luther King, Cedric the entertainer Hakeem Jeffries, the current speaker of the house, all these people have these great, like these huge positions or entertainers like Cedric.

Or even Angela Bassett, and they have this tradition of using movement as a way to develop leadership skills and to be seen and to be heard in a world that doesn't really want them or hasn't really been expressive of having them seen and heard.

Meg LeFauve: Oh, I can't wait to see who your protagonist ends up being.

I can't wait either. Oh

Monique N. Matthews: my goodness, it's

Meg LeFauve: so exciting. Go ahead,

Lorien McKenna: Lorraine. Very similar to like scripted, right? It's either, oh, it's a high concept or, oh, it's a character or it's this idea or, you know, how it can come in so many different ways. There isn't the way to come to a documentary, which I love. Can you talk about, so, you know, people have to be comfortable on camera.

Say, like, how do you, you have identified your protagonist, they fit in with your idea and then they just can't be on camera. Like, have you encountered that, where, you know, like, that's, is, like, you've built all the trust, you've done all the things, you've worked it, like, how do you, what do you do if that's happened to

Monique N. Matthews: you?

For me, it has happened. I mean, here's the, here's the balance, right? I've, and, you know, when you work with others, I can blame this on my EP, who I love. It's, some people are not, they have this wonderful story and they're not compelling on camera in the way that they need to be compelling on camera. And sometimes you cut around them and sometimes you have to reshoot with other people who.

Or still telling an authentic story, but who will fit in more. And it's, you know, we make tough decisions. And for me, it was more important that, you know, this issue where the United States as a whole would be, you know, rate 23 out of 35 developed nations. This includes white women for, you know, having healthy and successful births.

So, you know, it becomes more than about a particular character. So for me, the subject became more than it. About an individual. And if someone didn't feel comfortable, cause I've had people, they like, I don't want to talk about that. And then afterwards I saw the film was like, Oh, I should have talked about that.

And there were a lot of people who didn't with a lot who are doing a lot of great work in this area, they didn't have trust for the media. So they didn't return our phone calls. They were just like, Oh, there's these filmmakers. They're going to do what everybody else does. It's going to be a train wreck.

And then afterwards we were embraced because they're like, Oh, we could trust you. So it was a lot of people who spoke to me off camera who didn't want to be identified. And you just have to just go with what you have. And, you know, hopefully the magic is there and the authenticity.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Same, nothing to, yeah, I mean, I mean, and it's, and it's really hard and then sometimes there are there are, I mean, there's a basically the woman who started the whole reason for the, the basis of this group that's at the center of Split at the Root is called Immigrant Families Together, and it started as an idea of this woman who Julie, who wanted to do something boots on the ground in response to the zero tolerance policy, the family separation.

And she saw this woman. She learned about this woman, Jenny, who was 1 of the 1st woman who was let out of detention and. Yanni, not comfortable, I mean, cut to later and she's part of our film and she's a central piece of, you know, person and, and we've become friends. Totally uncomfortable on camera, uncomfortable as I learned to be in, we had to be in a quiet room to record the interview, right?

And even though she's completely claustrophobic because she's been in detention. So she's an uncomfortable person on camera and her story is so compelling and she is the 1 case where her kind of. Motion coming through it didn't it didn't matter. I mean, it didn't say, oh, wow, she's less compelling or her voice is hard to hear or something like that.

It was you have to be present and and it's all about her her getting to use her voice. So. So, but, and so it's interesting to see so uncomfortable in the beginning and then becoming more and more and more comfortable. And then we had our, our screening in Washington, D. C. where you know, we had members of Congress and she's just walking up to them.

I want the picture. This is what's going on in my family. You need to hear me. And you know, you see someone's growth. So I'm, I don't know, I'm trying to like pull things together, which I shouldn't be doing as a producer here on your own show. But of that, you're, you're, as you're,

Lorien McKenna: you're doing a documentary

Meg LeFauve: right now.

I love it. She changed. She arced and you're how amazing to let the awkwardness be. And that she arced in that. It's amazing. Is that part

Lorien McKenna: of why you make documentaries, like a call to action, inspiring other people to, like, what is it for you? Why are you called to this

Meg LeFauve: medium? Yeah, because I, that's, that dovetails with another question, which is, you know, you're supposed to be flying the wall, and yet it is a creative act.

You, you are in it, right? You, we call it lava on this show. Your lava has to be in it for you to, You know, it's not like you're going to become rich making documentary. So there has to be some passionate reason you're going to do this. So how do you keep it personal and yet, and yet objective too, is within that question.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Yeah, I mean, I have to really check myself on my objectivity all the time. My you know, my driving force is to create community and to for people to not feel that they're alone and for them to see themselves and that they can, every single person can do something. So. Split at the root. You can do, you know, you can get involved in a tiny way or a giant way and you don't have to be an expert in immigration and in somewhere between which is about four girls adopted from China when they were little and we follow them when they're teenagers.

It's. You're not alone and everybody is somewhere between no matter who they are in their lives. Right? So there's a specific and a universal. So it's really about right? Platforming ideas. I have a lot of privilege as a white woman. That's that's something that I can do. But it's really just about creating really creating

Monique N. Matthews: community.

I just I want to acknowledge something that you're saying that I think that anyone who's listening to this, podcasts may want to be aware of as they consider funding, right? Cause documentaries funding is a, is a huge thing is you have time. You built in time to make sure that you were with your subject.

Like we just, with our budget, we didn't have it. Right. So I think that there is something to that. And I think that there's something to, in terms of the, one of the constant things we're talking about is being present is when you create your budget for it, if you really want, you have to know how to insist on the time to, to follow people and not.

Not do that shortcut if that's what you are going for. I know that with Birthing Justice, it was a call to action. It's like, you know, it's in our tag. Every woman deserves a beautiful birth story. And so, how does this birthing story look in this particular region of the country? And it differs based on the region that you're in, but that's the call to action.

That's the story. And for me, I've written across mediums for I mean, I get, I would say the majority of my professional life as a magazine writer, as a, as a news journalist you know, and Ph. D. programs at UCLA. So I'm used to writing and, and writing in different forms and mediums. So for me, I, I just want the medium where I can tell the most compelling version of the story with where I am.

I think that sometimes people want to wait until they have, you know, this particular amount of money to do something or this. And it's just to start where you are. What do you have? What can you do? And if it's just, if you know you want to follow people, then, you know, don't want to do 10 people. Like, focus on two if that's what you know you can get the budget for.

But if you need to tell a story, I really believe you need to tell the most compelling version of that story based upon what you have on hand and go for it immediately.

Meg LeFauve: Okay, I have a question about that because I love that. So you're in there, maybe you're in the edit room or maybe you're in the interview, so much of documentary in any story, but especially documentary, it seems to me is exposition, like you've explained so much about the topic, about the social topic, about the, like, how do you handle exposition and So that it's not talking heads just explaining stuff all the time or is it the way you're asking the question?

Is it something you do an edit where you're like, oh my gosh We have to explain this and we have to go get another interview. How does exposition work? It's

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: so hard. I mean, so I did a film about Sesame Street and their work around the world and the the The spine of the story took place as they were creating a new series in Bangladesh.

Did I know about the history of Bangladesh before I went to Bangladesh six times? I did not. Do most people in our country or in the West know about Bangladesh? No, they do not. I can guarantee it. So we had to give context because there's a very special reason why Sesame Street and literacy in Bangladesh, it So we

You know, we pieced together archival footage that told the story, basically the history of Bangladesh in two minutes. And I commend my editor. I mean, that is like heroic and so adding music to that at, you know, there's, there's kind of different pieces and and split at the root. We also needed the context of migration to the United States from Central America.

You know, why are all those people coming? Well, it's what our government has done over a whole bunch of years. So how do we, how do we explain that? And so for that, I did actually ask my, one of my protagonists, Hey, can you give me the history of Central America, American you know, military involvement, why we've created the problems that we now have.

And she did, and we use music and we use archival footage and excuse me. So it's, I. It's really hard for me, but it's so important if you don't have the context.

Monique N. Matthews: Right, right. Monique, how about for you? You know, for exposition, I would certainly say that leaning on my background as a screenwriter is helpful and putting up show don't tell like everywhere.

Right? So one of the things we wanted to cover is like, when you look at what's happening in terms of the black maternal health care crisis, specifically in the United States and how if the U. S. was just a Just made of black women, just black women comprised the U. S. It would be 37 developed nations.

Costa Rica and Mexico are the only two that have worse outcomes than United States. If that was just, if it was just all black women. And so. Looking at that in DC, for example, gentrification is really huge, right? So, but when you look at people being pushed out of these communities and community is such a vital important when a woman gives birth, you know, in a community and so many women are homeless.

And, and then when you look at birthing and it doesn't matter what socioeconomic status black women have, they're still more likely to die than any other ethnicity in the United States. Right. Then it's like, well, how do you show gentrification? Like, I didn't want to back away from that. So then that's when the B roll footage became, hey, such and such said this.

I need to make sure we find what this looks like so that when she says it, people see it. So I really wanted to make sure that my B roll reflected whatever exposition people came with. Because I know that sometimes people say things and they can seem like talking heads and they can seem like they're all over the place, but you know, there's.

Generally a perfect storm when you get to an epidemic. And if you just focus on one thing, you lose so many other things. And, you know, as filmmakers, the wonderful thing is how do I show this? How do I show this in a second or two, three seconds? And so for me, it was finding B roll footage to match the exposition.

Meg LeFauve: I loved in your documentary, Monique, where. And I'm going to get it wrong and I apologize. It's more about my brain than the impact that one of your protagonists talked about. How, in an interview, and I believe it was in Georgia, a doctor said, Well, if you take out the African American mortality rate in birth, we're doing okay.

And when she said it, I was like, I must have heard that wrong. And you must have known that I was gonna be like, That's not possible, cause it's And then you show him, say it. And it's so impactful to have both of them say it, to have her say it, and then to, to watch him say it. So, it just, I mean, think of what you're talking about, the show Don't Tell, like, you allowed us to have the horror of witnessing the actual thing that she's talking about.

It was so powerful. It was so, so powerful.

Monique N. Matthews: Yeah. Yeah, he was a lawmaker out of Louisiana, and we actually had to do a few different things with our PBS edit because he pushed back and said that, he said that, but that's not what he meant.

Meg LeFauve: Oh, so it's not in the PBS version? Well, we can cut this if it's

Monique N. Matthews: a problem.

No, that's why we like the director's cut. It's like, you said it, but okay you know. For whoever your distributor is, they want objectivity and you have to go through something. So then we had to figure out, you know, how do we tell this balanced story that that happened, you know,

Meg LeFauve: that's, that's another question I had.

And we had about how do you keep it, the, the areas of gray or another way to say it in a different way is getting too preachy, right? Like, how do you how do you navigate that?

Monique N. Matthews: Oh, I think it's a, it's kind of like a case by case basis. I don't think that it's, you know, there's just one way to do it.

It's just, you know, in the moment you show up and you just, it's kind of also when you're writing though, I mean, Laurieann, you talk about this a lot. It's, and you mentioned it earlier with characters. You really have to present as much as possible three dimensional characters and trust your audience enough to make an intelligent choice about where they fall along the line.

And so I think that when you don't reduce the humanity of someone, regardless of what it is that they said, that you give the audience a chance to, to show that they can form their own opinion instead of you making it for them. I

Lorien McKenna: have a question that kind of relates to this. So I get nervous when I'm about to watch a documentary or I'm going to a documentary film because I know it's going to pop some bubble I've been living in.

It's going to show me some new scary thing I didn't know about, some new horror about the world, right? And it feels like it's I feel scared. Right? And so I tend not, I mean, I tend not to watch them because I, I, like, oh my god, do I want to do that? Or do I just want to be in my safe little happy bubble and watch another episode of a sitcom I like?

Right? So how does a beginner to the documentary scene How does one make a slow entry into it so that it's not like you watch the big scary one first, right? And I think this comes because in seventh grade, they showed us a documentary about the Holocaust and they let it play for too long. And so I got very scared, right?

I was 11 years old and I was like, Oh my God. So I have that feeling come up. That's my lava, right? So how do you, you know, cause there's the, like the way I'm documentary, right? Which is. Fun and joyful and nostalgic, right? And then there's other documentaries which are very dark and scary and expose something.

I don't know what I'm saying here, what the question is, but I know there's lots of people who feel this way, right? We want to stay safe and entertained, but not too challenged. But I think we do need to shift that. And be more accessible. And I know you experienced this in your audiences, right? People get scared of them.

They don't come.

Monique N. Matthews: So, I mean, I, I can go first with this because just it's called, it's called birthing justice, right? But then when you say all this about, you know, black maternal health crisis, maternal health in America, people are like, oh my gosh, I don't want to see that that's so depressing. I can't take it.

And for me, I wanted to, there were several things that I do. I wanted the. The women that you saw, the families that you see to be so beautiful as they organically were that you could not take your eyes off of them. You're like, Oh my gosh, like she's saying this, but something is really compelling and I got to keep watching this.

Right. Also for me as a filmmaker, I have an underlying theme of black joy is resistance. Right. So, you know, I really Think about like every year Martin Luther King Jr. holiday comes up and one of the favorite things that I like to see because you can get kind of overdose on all the pictures of King during his holiday, right?

Is him playing pool or him like shooting cards and it's so different than everything that I had grown up thinking about him, like, and to know, you know, he was 38 when he died. And for me, just as a kid, I wasn't born when he was, when he was alive. So he was just always old to me. Right. And always, you know, in a suit and tie in the seed of humanity and see, I wanted to, to really explore how that joy that Has been a part of social movements, political movements that Black people have been a part of since they've been in this country.

And it's always underdeveloped. Like you'll see the anger, you'll see the pain. And I was like, no, the joy is just as valid. And I know that this is something that's hiding in plain sight. And when my audience sees it, even though this other stuff is happening, they'll go, wow, but I didn't think about this.

And understanding as a writer, polarity, I just, I really knew I wanted to, to keep that drawn in. So as a filmmaker, it was really important to know where my audience was. Now, I know some people will be like, Oh, you just got to let them know. And, and you can, but I wanted to keep them engaged at the same time.

So it was really important that people look beautiful in their natural element. So it was very, my documentary is very colorful. I wanted to make sure I captured the color. And thematically to show something that was in plain sight that people weren't aware of, and that was joy as a tool of resistance, as a weapon.

Beautiful.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: When I worked with this organization, the Radical Monarchs in the Bay Area Marilyn, who's one of the co founders, said, you know, especially it's so important working with youth, is that, you know, really the living the idea is that the revolution will have joy. Right? And that was, I mean, I learned 150, 000 things from her.

And that was that was such an important. Lesson for me and a tool for me to just professionally and personally to move forward of how to,

The, there needs to be joy along with the anger or that how I am, you know, how I'm uplifting people or their ideas or standing back while people are uplifting themselves that there is joy, right?

There is joy in the movement forward. So. Having been fueled by anger for so long it was for me, it was a really important

Meg LeFauve: lesson. I also think within the striving is hope, you know, I mean, that's why I love both of your guys work is that within, yes, it's hard, and yes, there's really hard things to look at.

And be disappointed about in terms of humanity and culture in America or whatever it is but all of both, all of your work has a, has also a striving, a hope, a, a working towards a solution, a week that there's power within this documentary for all of us to consider once it's considered, there's a chance to change it.

And I just think that is also, for me, why I don't, there are documentaries that don't have that, and you do feel like, oh my god, like, oh my gosh, tell me, can you put a thing at the end? Can I, can, where, what can I do? But I love both of your work, because you do have that hope and striving within it.

Lorien McKenna: And I will say, anytime I do watch a documentary, It has, like, I'm always so like, Oh, yes, this shitty thing is going on, but there is joy in it.

It's just this block I have that is, like, getting me, it's like, I have to be braver in how I can, how I watch things, I think. That's just a note to myself. But I'm sure I'm not alone in that. That's just the concept of a documentary feels like, Oh, I'm not smart enough to understand or, Oh, I can't do anything about it.

You know, like, You know, so, but, but you're right. Even if I can watch it and like tell someone else to watch it

Monique N. Matthews: form,

Lorien McKenna: like that community, the, the spreading of that, like that, I feel like that's what I can do. I can watch, I can recommend, I can talk and share. Right. So within my power, my capabilities, I think that's what you guys are talking about a little bit too.

Right. Building that building.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Yeah. I mean, Monica. You have your own better words, but it's like right as a filmmaker. It's like that's the best possible thing is for someone to watch and to recommend right and that they're, you know, yeah. And I also

Meg LeFauve: informative. I mean, having watched your documentaries.

If that topic was to go by a news feed or I hear there's a bill where, like, they need people to call about what, like, I do think just knowledge with permeating out into the culture, right? And educating people on this is happening. Does have ripples what you're doing does have incredible ripples And I know that must be hard as a documentary because it's not like immediate like box office for the weekend was a hundred

Monique N. Matthews: million dollars Right,

Meg LeFauve: like you don't guys don't get that It you're you just have to trust that the ripples of of what you've done and put out in the world is going to continue To go out and affect more and more people And that that how that those shifts happened, like you both said, giving voice to the voiceless isn't of itself such a powerful act.

Monique N. Matthews: And I think even if it's not really heavy, heavy, I was thinking about Hedy Lamarr's bombshell on Netflix and just to be trapped in beauty, right? Like just watching that. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, like, this is really brilliant. This woman was brilliant and she used her beauty. And then she became, you know, In, in encapsulated, like if she was in a cage as a result of that and people couldn't see her past it.

And, you know, then her children said she was difficult. And I think that that's something that, you know, we can relate to as we, as we look at people as three dimensional human beings and how they got this way. So for me, just looking like and seeing, oh, she was the face of this and she did that. And it's just like, wow.

So we're in 2023. Can a woman, you know, who is considered the most beautiful people would say she was people magazine, most beautiful today. Could she come out with a patent for World War II and be taken seriously still, or would that still, so those. Those questions I think can help, you know, the people who are new to documentaries because there's so many topics, but that's just universal.

Where women are just like, can I be a fully human, can I be beautiful and have a brain and like, like just the most simple element, you know? Well, that's

Meg LeFauve: what's so powerful about documentaries that are great. Like yours, both of yours, we start to see ourselves. Right, even though I have no context whatsoever for that documentary at all, they're human beings and you start to put yourself in their place.

And what would you do and admire what they did and the, and, and how hard they're working or what they're, how they saw it. Right. And, and like you said, Monique, it's such a beautiful thought and where they. It fell down. It also makes them relatable to us, right? Because, no, they're not gods, they're not perfect, or why did they do what they did, right?

I just think, I, I also so love that about storytelling and what you guys can do with documentaries too, in terms of real life. I guess my question is for our listeners out there, You know, sometimes I will hear a pitch and I'll be like, it's a documentary. You're basically pitching me a documentary. I know it might be a fiction thing, but you haven't found the concept yet to make it fiction, especially when I were for Jodie Foster.

I heard the story of everyone who's ever lived and done anything. Did she walk to China in her bare feet? I heard about it. Like, I mean, I've heard everything. But they, there was more documentary. So let's say you have that story and you realize, you know what, I do want to make a documentary about her.

I, you know, and maybe that'll lead to the, right, to the fiction eventually. What is advice you would give to a new documentarian either about financing or how to approach things or anything, any advice you would give to people who are just going to try to break into this?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: There's such a lower barrier to entry in documentary.

If you have an iPhone, you can start filming something and make a little proof of concept. You can just use something's happening and you don't want to miss it in the moment. Right. Just start. Just start filming. You don't need. You don't need the permission on the grand level, and you don't have to write an outline at 1st and you don't have to live in your lava and, you know, all of those things you can just you can just go.

So that's 1 thing. And the other just. And everything that everyone said is that in what we all do is we humanize people, right? So, Monique and I are humanizing by turning a lens on real people that people that are a number. Oh, black women. This is happening to black women. Now, here is this woman in particular walk in her shoes, right?

And like, really understand that woman that just walked by and you have not, you don't know anything about her. Right? So we have that opportunity and that's what. Yeah. Writers are doing too, right? You're having this character and like you're saying, it has to, this person has to become 3 dimensional to humanize them.

That's how that person is relatable to you. And they're your, and they're your character and story can move forward. So it really is about the humanity and humanizing people. That doesn't answer your question. I say just start and also watch a lot of documentaries and reach out and there's the International Documentary Association.

It's an amazing organization. Step into that world. Film Independent also has a really strong documentary arm. There's, there, there's a whole there's a bunch and I'm forgetting who they are, but tap into the networks. They're there. There, there are zooms. There are screenings. There are people that you can make meet to make create create community.

Monique N. Matthews: I'd like to just echo what Linda said. Cause I know you can, people can say start. And then I was like, yeah, everybody says start, but it really is like, I, I, I mean, I've been a screenwriter for quite some time and you get. Like, for me, it was like, I had my career, I came out of UCLA film school, it was hot, hot, hot.

And then the 2007 strike happened, and I wasn't ready for the transition to television. And so I was just out there as a feature writer, as an African American woman feature writer, no one was hiring me. And I was like, what's the next story I can tell? And I felt like I was like useless in your hands. And I had an iPhone six and I was like, you know, I'm going to do a minute documentaries on people who decide to live extraordinary lives, like ordinary people who, who depend on excellence, like something that's simple and that really led to me getting my feature documentary.

It's not like, Oh, Oh, it's like, literally I just put it out there and people saw it and then I just kept doing more things and I used the technology that I had at, at hand. Then. My writing background allowed me to know how to tell a story like how do you I want to do profiles on ordinary people teaching excellence.

That's 1 sentence. You see it and you just go for that. And things keep moving forward from that. Also, you know, like you can't be afraid to fail like failures apart. Like you talk about lava, like every day you guys talk about doing the work and what that means and you still time people. And you know, one of the things I love about you, Lorraine, as you talk about how, you know, fearful things can, can be for you at times, and yet you show up each and every time and the bravery that exists in that, and I think whatever, like bravery, foolishness, because it's that fine line.

But he's showing up, you know, and Meg talks about there's nothing like that blank page and you're sitting there and you're staring at it like, I'm going to show up every day to this blank page. And it's just that it's just like, you know what, if you start, you know what, you might, you might realize you're trying to tell 20, 000 different stories and you just need to tell one.

But you won't know, you just need to tell one unless you start telling them. And I think that we compare, we keep comparing whether it's a, it's a screenplay, whether it's a film, you can't compare your first draft to an Oscar winning script. And we do it all the time, or to a film, and you go to an antique film, like, I mean, for me The film that I taught in my screenwriting class, one of my favorite films was definitely Inside Out.

Like, that is just, and Magnum, that was like my, like one of the, cause it's such a beautiful story. The structures, the characters, and so often in film schools, they teach films in, in, in a one, in a one in AMI. So it is Oscar nominated, but you think of Oscar nominated films, you think about, you know, the classics from 40 years ago that are so far.

Out of the way for people and there's something about an animated film about a little girl whose biggest thing is fitting in after she goes, you know, her parents move. And to really give her that voice, that beauty to, to, for that to be okay, for that to be a big enough story. I think it gave my students freedom to tell their stories.

And I think that we like. Just, just go for what's there. Like your story is enough and, you know, watch things that you don't necessarily think are so big and so, and so active and have, have so many, you know, laurels on them that they intimidate you from just telling your story and failing at your story and telling it again and again and again.

So for me, I think that that's really, I love that. Thank

Meg LeFauve: you so much. I love that.

Lorien McKenna: Yes. I have a question about Just Start, right? So, as everybody knows, my daughter was diagnosed with type 1 and I'm angry about a lot of things around it. And we're managing it, but like, I'm, every time I meet a mom or a dad, they have the diagnosis story, which is trauma that never goes away.

And then there's the, the living the real life of it. We had a good day. We had a bad day. We, you know, like, there's so many different places I want to go. I don't want to write a narrative about it. I've tried. It's just like, I don't want to tell my story for once. I don't want to talk about myself here, but I'm so curious that I'm like People who are uninsured and how do you get stuff that you need, that's just insulin, there, there's thousands of dollars of supplies you need to manage your kid effectively so that, you know, you're not waking up every night to poke them in the finger, right?

So, I, I don't quite, and I also, so say I want to make a little mini documentary about this. What I'm afraid to do, just start, like, okay, I want to reach out to somebody and say, can I, can I just talk to you and record it? I feel like. That I'm committing to something. Okay, it's a lot of fear talk here. Maybe this isn't a good example, but

Meg LeFauve: like, I mean, it's a perfect example because you just have to start.

Yeah, you

Lorien McKenna: just have to start and I say, well, you and then they're like, oh, you're making a documentary. I don't know.

Meg LeFauve: You can just say,

Monique N. Matthews: I don't know.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: You can say, I'm doing research for a project.

Lorien McKenna: Ah, there it is. Okay. So, yes, but I, but I think it's like that, like, am I equipped to tell the story? And I think.

We're all always asking ourselves these questions, right? It's about, you know, it's just a, it's a scary concept. It's how I felt when I first started writing plays, how I first, my first TV show, like, am I equipped to succeed? Am I No

Meg LeFauve: one is equipped to do anything artistic. At all. I don't care who you are.

I don't care what kind of show you put on. Nobody is. So even if

Lorien McKenna: I don't know what it is, like, I just want to start talking about it. It's

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: a project that you need to do research for. Seriously. Seriously.

Lorien McKenna: I think that's really important because it's like, I don't have a question. I don't have a character. I don't have a concept.

Meg LeFauve: So, so Linda, you're saying you can just start with, I'm going to do research.

Yeah, project. And I know it's in the world of diabetes and this kind of angle. And that's all I'm going to do is start the research to start

Lorien McKenna: there. Exactly. Exactly. Teeny, teeny little step. I don't have to name it. I don't have to know what it is. So

Monique N. Matthews: the screenwriter in me would say, okay one is, it's really hard to create something when you're in the middle of it, right?

Cause you're too attached to it. So then the, the screenwriter things like, okay, so you had some distance from it. What would be your three minute elevator pitch for that? Oh, it's a documentary is really elevator pitch, but no, you're still talking to an audience and having to find what it is that you want to say.

And if it's just 3 minutes or 5 minutes, you know, if you can get that, we talked about if you get that log line down, you got it. But it's, it's how do you get there?

Meg LeFauve: Right. Did you Monique, did you get your three minute pitch before you did the research or did you do the research, learn deeply about the topic and start to see the three minute pitch?

I

Monique N. Matthews: started like, you know, I got there were so many ways to come at it. And then I realized, like, Oh, my God. I like, I didn't know so many women that I knew were affected by it. Like I had a cousin who I didn't know she died at like 32, like from having a baby. Like it was like, and you think that you're safest in the hospital.

And I remember her as an infant and I never saw her growing up and she's no longer here. And I was just like, Oh my God. So this deeply affected me. And I just, I just didn't know. And then I was like, no, this is happening to too many women. And I'm tired of women. Feeling ashamed of something that is systematic, right?

We're taught to go within ourselves and feel ashamed when we shouldn't. And it's just so, for me, that really just that voice of like, no, like, let's remove the cover of the shame here became so important to me. And that clarion call, if you just don't, just don't feel ashamed. Right. And so that guided everything as I, as I moved forward, I knew it was happening too much and I wanted people to, I wanted the right people to start or the right institution to start being held accountable instead of we just individually take things on for us that we shouldn't.

Yeah,

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: and I, and, and all of that, as you're saying, right, all of those pieces, the personal, the context, right? All deeper and deeper because of all the research that you did. Right? So, like, that could help you. You know, refine your three minute, you know, elevator pitch or bring another idea or character into your story and all of that.

So it is that kind of like a little bit of a chicken and egg, right? You've got the, I've got this. And then what do I do with it? And so then it's, okay, I got to do research. And then it takes you to where you think you're going. And then you need to do some more research. So,

Lorien McKenna: yeah, I go for it and it might change.

Like, have my logline, go off and start, and it could change depending on what happens. Right.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: It will change

Monique N. Matthews: as crazy as it sounds. Right. Because it's such a, it's such a, a pressing issue and it, and it, it hurts and you're dealing with it. It's like, you want other people to take this journey with you. Right. So there's a roller coaster. So I do think you do. Need to like, if you're talking to like, what is the and I know it sounds commercial, but like, really, the, what is the big idea?

Like, what is and you get that? And because people will tell you, oh, you should do it about this. And you can like, no, that's not it. No, you should do this. There might be a kernel there. And it's just. You know, you're pretty busy. So what's going to keep you up late at night and make you work through things.

And I D I don't think that when things are serious and they're real, that we need to take away the commercial lens that we learned about audience and engagement. Do you guys have the

Lorien McKenna: same? Oh, smart. We have the same blockades, questions, pressures as we do in scripted. Why? What's the big idea? Who's the main character?

What's the native address? Why you? Why? What is the cell? What is the elevator pitch? Like, it's all the same thing. It's just a different way to tell a

Meg LeFauve: story. Yeah, it's a different form. Yeah.

Lorien McKenna: And I do not have another me available to be documentary me. That is not. I don't have another me. I'm a room parent right now.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: The other thing I was going to say is that if you know how you think it's going to go, then that's propaganda in a documentary, right? If you think, you know, I'm going to. Follow this person or this doctor or, you know, whoever it is and it's this is where the story is going. That's where I'm going with it.

Lorien McKenna: If you're, if you're trying to prove a point, yeah, rather than or

Monique N. Matthews: investigate. Yeah,

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: that's that's

Lorien McKenna: rather than a conversation. You're,

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: you're right at the end of exploring. There's no exploration. Right? So that's exploration research. And I'll give you one teeny example of just that, how nobody knows anything when you're doing something creative, you know, I had been doing this for a really long time.

And I am starting a project that is a documentary series. And I'm super excited about it. And I come back from my first shoot and I am panicking on the plane. I was like, guess it's a short film. Like what? Like, I just was like, I was questioning everything. Like, what is this? Where's this going to go?

And I went there so sure of like, this is what it is. I still don't know exactly what it is. I know who it's about, but it's like, Oh, there's so much more exploration. You know, and I was really down on myself because I was like, Oh my God, how could I have been so wrong about the format? This is going to take.

And it's like, you can't know until you're in it. Can't

Meg LeFauve: know until you're in it. That goes for every creative. artistic act there is. You can't know until you're in it. So all you guys go get in it. Just start. Just start. All right. This has been spectacular. I think we can talk for another hour. I know I could listen to you both for another hour.

But we're going to wrap up with our three questions that we asked. Monique, you have already answered these questions, but you're going to have to come up with something new. Okay. For each of you, for, for both of you, what brings you the most joy when it comes to your work as a documentary?

Monique N. Matthews: Monique, you go. Oh, she, she applied this in a documentary, so it's a little different. Ha ha! Ha ha! You know, the, what really got me is the first screening we had, we had it at Clark Atlanta. And our beautiful doctor from Augusta, Georgia Donna Pickett Adams, she came up and I wanted to know what they thought.

And she was like, you got me like when people say that I captured them and their essence or and the same thing for Ebony and the same thing. As I went to, you know, St. Louis or Oklahoma and everyone I talked to was like, you showed me like how I am like, this is how I see it. And it wasn't about me. It was like, I was able to show them them.

And that brought me so much joy that they saw themselves reflected in what was on the screen. They were like, I felt like someone has seen me that really, to this day, it just gives me chills.

Meg LeFauve: I love that. That can happen in, in fiction too. You can be at the after party and somebody walks up and says, I feel like you were talking about me.

And, you know, that's just like, oh my god, that is the most precious. Linda, what about you?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: The, the people that I have worked with that have been in the film and, and behind the, you know, making the film with me, I have my work husbands. I have my, these two guys I've worked with for over 20 years. This is our sixth or seventh film together.

We've been around the world together. We think six or seven times. So the relationship, so I love my work husbands and, and the new, and the new people that, that you know, the new crew members. But the, the people that are in the film that are really making themselves vulnerable and collaborating on such a deep level, they're, we're, we're friends.

We're long, long lasting friends. So, you know, a couple of those, the couple of those girls that I filmed with when they were 14, they're now, you know, lawyers and, and you know, we're, we're really close. So like that, you know, those relationships. Awesome. Love it.

Lorien McKenna: All right. Linda, you're going to start this one.

Okay. What pisses you off about your work as a documentarian?

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: I thought you were going to say what pisses you off. I'm like, do you have the time?

Meg LeFauve: We're going to narrow it down.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: What pisses me off is that. This is the question. There's so many outlets, all of the streaming, so many channels. Oh my god, it must be so great for you to make documentaries now.

Nope. Unless you're making something about true crime, a sports figure, or a celebrity. Something else, Monique? I don't know. That, you know, it's like, And even if it's, even if it's, you know, something, you know, joyful, I think it's still really, really hard. And so that pisses me off that the, the barrier, the, the barriers to say, we're going to give the audience something a little bit different.

Monique N. Matthews: That pisses me off.

Meg LeFauve: Monique,

Monique N. Matthews: what about you? I think it pisses me off when you run out of time and it's, there's segments that you want to do and you're like, Oh my gosh, that would be great. And you just couldn't like, we wanted to, this is whole, one of the things we really wanted to explore and we just ran out of time was black women giving birth in prisons.

Because some women are shackled and, and these are women who are in prison for minor offenses where they probably shouldn't be incarcerated at all. And I wasn't able to tell that part of the story and I really wanted to bring humanity to that. So there are just things that you just, you just run out of time for and that you don't have, you know, it could be red tape, it could be finding the right subject, it could be all of those things.

And you know, there's a great story, but you can't tell it at that particular time. Amazing.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Thank you.

Lorien McKenna: Yeah, that pisses me off.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Both of your answers,

Monique N. Matthews: the extremes.

Meg LeFauve: Yeah. All right. Jeff's going to ask the last one.

Monique N. Matthews: Sure. And then the last question we have for you guys is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self before you got into documentary filmmaking, what advice would you give

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: that person?

Meg LeFauve: Oh, my God, shaking her head just for the people on the podcast. Like, I don't know. That could mean so many things right

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: now.

Meg LeFauve: Please leave this,

Monique N. Matthews: you know, I think in terms of going back and documentaries and talking to a younger self is you don't know, like, just tell the story like, you don't like you think that. When I thought that when I was younger, there was a plan and you realize you don't know the plan. You don't know what's really going to just, you know, explode the way that you needed to explode.

So, you know, as much as it hurts you to feel authentic, and that seems like you're trying to tell these stories that no one is paying attention to, that is how you find the heart. So just be okay with being lonely sometimes because it's, it's, it's, it's, for your artists, it's kind of worth it. It's not kind of, it is worth it.

Yeah, I don't like that.

Lorien McKenna: That's always a very scary, even now, right? Even telling myself that yesterday. What? There's no plan?

Meg LeFauve: Well, and that's, I guess what I like what you're saying too, Monique, is that holds true to an individual project, but also to your career. To that young person who's like, well, what's the stepping stone for my career?

And I want this. And you're like, you don't even know. You have no idea where you're going to go. You have no idea what you're going to do. And the world and the universe can think so much bigger than you. So just start, right? Like, it's just the career. Just start going. All right, Linda. I've given you, I gave you a little time

Monique N. Matthews: there, girl.

Come on. Yeah, I know. Get

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: it together. I would tell myself just, I don't know. I have like nothing great to say, but I'm like, Keep going. But I, I did keep going. So,

Meg LeFauve: Well, it doesn't have to be something you didn't do, but you can just, maybe you wish you knew sooner. Maybe it's just something you wish you knew sooner.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: I wish I knew sooner. Following is a great piece of advice. Right, right. Learn how to raise money for

Meg LeFauve: a great piece of advice. Yes,

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: yes, it is. Yeah, find a sugar mama. The yeah, that it's that it's okay that you don't know what you're doing. You kind of can't know until you know, right? And so, you know, there's, I felt like I had too much paralysis around.

I don't know what I'm doing and and that, what is that? It was okay to fake it till you make it.

Meg LeFauve: Thank you guys so much for being on the show. We loved having you guys with us.

Monique N. Matthews: Thank you

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: so much. I've learned

Lorien McKenna: so much. Like I think the most, the most impactful, the thing with the most impact. Is how similar the mediums are in terms of process, research, character, trust, all of it. And

Meg LeFauve: You guys were so passionate and so clearly in love with what you do.

So thank you so much. It's just

Lorien McKenna: baffling and terrifying. So I really, really value it. I mean, I'm sure it is, but

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: thank you so much. Thank you so much. And, and I don't know, I'm just going to say this. When I was co directing my first documentary, I had an idea. I didn't know how to, I didn't even know what you did for documentaries.

And I was having dinner across the table from a documentary filmmaker. And I was like, Hey, I have this idea. What do you think? And she thought it was a great idea and I was, I just thought of not knowing what I don't know, but I didn't know I knew how to tell a story. I'd produced scripted films before, so I'm like, I know that part and together she'll teach me the documentary part.

And that is literally what happened. So there, it is the marriage of, it's all storytelling. It's all storytelling. It's just a little bit where you're pointing the

Monique N. Matthews: camera.

Meg LeFauve: I love it. Monique, thank you too for so much for coming. All right, you guys. So before we go quick, tell us where we can see your films.

Anything else that's coming up? So, yeah,

Monique N. Matthews: so birth and justice. This is actually we're going to be at the DTLA film festival on Thursday, October 19th, which I think is when this is airing at 6 PM. So you can catch us there. We're also on PBS. I think we're behind the paywall right now though, but you should, you could probably go to pbs.

com and still watch it.

Meg LeFauve: And Monique, can people go and purchase it on like Apple or anything or not?

Monique N. Matthews: I don't believe it's on Apple yet. Not yet. Okay. It's pbs. org. I'm sorry. I don't think pbs would be dot com. pbs. org. No, not yet. It's I think it's just PBS and we're still playing at different festivals.

Awesome.

Linda Goldstein Knowlton: Fantastic. It's so good. It's so good. Go watch it. Split at the Root. You can see on Netflix.

Meg LeFauve: All right.

Lorien McKenna: Thank you guys. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.