161 | LIVE Stephen's College Story Workshop + Writing Exercises for Act 2

We're back for another story workshop, plus some amazing suggestions for writing exercises to help crack act 2.

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TRANSCRIPTION

Lorien McKenna: Before we jump into our conversation, we wanted to remind you all about some very exciting news about the Austin Film Festival this year. In addition to being there in person and doing our live story panel, in addition to some other panels, we're going to be throwing a party! A TSL party in partnership with Final Draft.

Meg LeFauve: And we are really excited to have our partners in Final Draft. I mean, not other than it, you know, it is the industry standard. You all need to know it. But they're just such a great, great company to work with. And the party is going to be on Saturday, October 28th, right after our story workshop at Stephen F's Bar and Terrace.

So, come 

Lorien McKenna: and meet us, and maybe even get 

Meg LeFauve: some swag! Ooh, some swag! Some TSL swag! Yes! Some final draft swag! Yes! I would like some final draft swag. Me too. Come. Come, you guys. Okay, let's get into it. Hey, everyone! Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve

Lorien McKenna: And I'm Lorian McKenna, and today we are at Stevens College, and we're doing a live podcast where we're going to do a story workshop.

So the first person up who's going to do it with us is Rex Obana. So Rex, this is where you tell us your story, and we're going to ask you questions. 

Rex: I just have to correct you.

Lorien Mckenna: Oh, how do you pronounce your name? Obano. Obano, what did I say? 

Rex: You said the former president of the United 

Lorien McKenna: States. Obama? Did I say Obama? 

Rex: Well, kind 

Lorien McKenna: of, yeah.

Obana. Oh, I said Obana. 

Rex: Yes, Obana.

Meg LeFauve: Rex, welcome to the show. 

Rex: Thank you for having me. Yes, so, the the television drama is about a missing person's unit. And there are two cops. You say cops over here, we say policemen. But, you know, we're in Rome. And the first policeman is... This is Sally, Sally Mountie.

She has given her best years to the police force. And she's good at finding missing persons. Very, very good. The saying is Mountie gets her man. 

Meg LeFauve: Nice. 

Rex: Yeah, so, the thing is, the thing is, because she's given her best life to the police force, she hasn't had a child. She hasn't managed to have a child, and that's what she wants.

And so she's going through IVF. We call it IVF? And the series, in a sense, as she's looking for the missing children, she is trying to search, find her own. And it's tearing her apart because it's not going very well. So she's kind of torn between her kind of allegiances to other mothers and parents and her desire to be one.

The other cop is... Well, it's so new, I can call him Tyrone. He hasn't got a surname, or any kind of moniker. And he is going through, he's another cop, and he's very, very good, again, at searching for missing children, or missing people. But his children, he has three, have been taken away in a bitter custody battle.

So then again, with him, he is trying to... It is his allegiance of searching for other people's children and then kind of having a battle for his own. And these two cops have given their life to searching for the children and, but they are being torn apart inside. So every week there's a story of the week.

There's a missing child, there's a missing person. I haven't gone through, you know, the the story of the week element in it. But it is, it is about these two people and it's about... My, my brother, my brother's son was taken into care when I was, when he was 6 to about 16. And I saw my brother kind of disintegrate mentally with that trauma.

Court cases social services as we call them. And so this is kind of in a sense my way of homaging that period in my family's life. And thats what I got so far, literally these are notes

Meg LeFauve: wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you.

You know, it's so powerful. And I know we're not supposed to be talking about how to pitch. But, I can't help it. It's so powerful to hear the personal. And you know, why you? That question, why are you the person to write this? Can you see how it all comes alive? When people talk with their personal connection to a story.

I thought that was very powerful. And told very well, considering you came up with it in the cab. 

Lorien Mckenna: Yes. Yes.

Meg Lefauve: I have to say. You're a great storyteller. And I'm very interested in it. I have some questions, but I want to let you say what you liked first.  

Lorien McKenna: I agree, too, because I'm like, well, does he have kids?

What's happening? And then we tell the story about your brother and the pain you saw, the pain you had around it, too. It did really bring it together, and it was like, oh, yes, this is a story you can tell with your lava, right? Yeah, I have questions, too. My, my first question, though, is And you might not know this, right, because you just came up with it, but the, what is the conflict between those two main characters?

Because they're on a similar journey, right, both are sort of looking, one to find her own child and one to get his children back. So what's the conflict? Are they partners? 

Rex: Yes, they are partners. They work in the same missing persons department. 

Lorien McKenna: So what's, how are they, how are they grinding together?

Like, why am I going to watch this show in terms of the characters, right? When you think of a show like SVU. It's how those characters are navigating and negotiating the, the relationship to the crime, but also to each other. 

Simon: Okay. 

Rex: I don't know that. Yeah, it's something, it's something that I was thinking, I was working on another show and there's something thinking about, in a sense, what, what the conflict is between them, but not great enough that you, they're arguing all the time.

Yes, right. No, I don't want that. It might be a difference of approach. It might be, it might, I, I, I don't want to have a love interest between them, I don't want to have any that they're married or related, but there's got to be something. It might be that one is old and one is young, I'm not 100 percent sure, it might be, it might be that, but yeah.

Yeah, 

Meg LeFauve: approach, like it could be, you know, is it Scully and... Mulder. Right? They just have different views of the world, so their beliefs are so different. Even though they have the same goal, those beliefs will keep... Or, I was thinking, you know, let's just talk about, like, one could be ready to retire, lethal weapon, one's ready to retire, and one is young and foolhardy and constantly putting them in danger.

I'm too old for this. I'm too old for this, right? You know, I'm just thinking about the archetypes of pairs, right? Right. But of course, they're cops, so they're each, you know, actors love to play skills, right? So they might have different skills that are complementary, but also clash, right? Because in order to do his thing, he has to be improv'd all the time, and she wants to go by the book.

Can that be psychic? One could be psychic. I think that was a TV show, right? Yeah, yeah. But you can see when you think about the TV shows with cops, why they're doing that is to start to give the relationship narrative drive. I like Cagney and Lacey.

Rex: I do like that. That's another one. You know, where I'm not sure which one it was.

I think it was... She could never settle down. Whereas Lacey had half and they were just, you know, she had that family dynamic going and you had the clash between both of them. So yeah. 

Meg LeFauve: Because we want it. We know at the end of the day, I mean, not so much anymore, but it used to be That they are going to get their man, right?

So it's the how they get them, and the how is very much about the emotional relationship between the two of them. And it's great what you're doing, that your brain is thinking of other Cagney and Lacy. Like, when I create, I always try to think of, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. I don't copy, but it's kind of like, you know, painters would first, in the Renaissance, would first study the masters.

And then they would go and find their own voice at coffee. You see that in museums, right? Yeah. But then they would find their own voice once they got their skill set down. So sometimes if I'm given, like I'm right now writing a horror movie and I'm like, oh my gosh, I have to watch a million horror movies, right?

And figure out the math that other people have done. I can break it, but I have to know I'm breaking it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I guess my other question, other than the relationship, which is often why you really tune in, because you love them together, right, is the world. So is the world of the show going to be mostly the investigation?

Are we also going to be going home with them? 

Rex: Yes. I think, I think with, with Sally, it's, the home is quite. Alone and stark, you know, she's a single person. She worked her her life is her work or has been And also I think the Tyrone the same thing as well I mean, I'm not sure sometimes when my ten year old daughter and when she I think when she goes away on camp or something The house is very different.

It feels very different and I think The office, the precinct, is alive with people. And they go to homes which are alive with people to a certain degree. But theirs is quite stark. But I do want, I think you said something about tone earlier. Mm hmm, yeah, tone. And I do want it to be kind of hopeful.

I don't want it to be kind of, you know, kind of, say torture porn, but just kind of, you know, down every week. I do want, maybe if they're not found, they don't always have to be found, but they do find something to a certain degree. So I do want it kind of be hopeful enough. I mean, I think series is like the practice.

I like the practice, the law series a couple of years ago. Younger people might not remember it, but yes. Which was in a sense, very, very hopeful at the end. But not, in a sense, like Ally McBeal hopeful, in a sense, which was kind of, you know, a pastiche. But yeah, just very hopeful. Yeah, 

Meg LeFauve: because if I'm an executive, I'm going to think, wow, that's all a bummer.

Like, missing kids, you lost your kids, you can't get pregnant. Like, what's fun here? Tell me what's fun here, right? So, in terms of just thinking of the show, and I know you're just starting, so this is, I'm just thinking, I'm just throwing out ideas. Do you, maybe, do you need to code one of them up? So, she seems to have a great life.

She doesn't want kids. She's perfectly happy. She's like this fun character. You can't wait to see her. But she does, is have a secret. Which is, you know what I mean, and I'm not saying you're not saying this. I'm just trying to say, I want to go see her have fun and have a great life. And she doesn't need to have a husband.

She's perfectly happy not having a husband. You know, or, you know, I don't know that this is a personal thing that just this is a personal thing. So take it or leave it. Yeah. What 

Lorien McKenna: I was looking for is a single woman, great life secretly. She's doing IVF and that there's a waiting and a hope and a loss in that, you know, fertility stuff is really hard and you keep it secret a lot of the times because there's shame in it.

Right. But it's a secret thing. So out out here you're like, Oh no, I'm fine. I'm great. But then there's this.

And I kind of wanted him to be, this is my take, because, and it's easy for me to do this because you're still forming the idea, so take this as just like what my point of view as somebody who went through fertility, as somebody whose life changed unexpectedly with a kid, like, that, that he would have a family, and it would seem happy and fine, and he, but that under it is this, That there's something really like a divorce or he, she's trying to take the kids and he's struggling to hold on to it in that same way.

And so that, that there is a, because when you have kids, let's be honest, there is that point of, would I do this again? I love my daughter. She absolutely should be in the world, but there is grief around having kids because your old life is gone. And just that, not that it's about being a parent, but it feels like there's a big piece of this.

And it's such a. Identity changing thing, so that it's not all not all sadness, but you do get different windows into what it looks like, and losing kids, losing the hope for kids, you know, all that kind of, it goes to theme, right? 

Meg LeFauve: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, again, this is just more my personal thing women always have to want a kid.

Mm hmm. So, I'm just... Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Want to throw that out there for something you to consider as a female character? I'd be interested in a woman who is perfectly happy not having kids and that she is mothering all these lost girls and boys, those are her children, right? And yet there's still a question of she's alone, right?

That she, that there's a there's a sense then that she's protecting herself from actually true emotional intimacy which then could come into the partnership. So it's just kind of digging in, which I'm sure you will, you thought about it two seconds ago. You know, and dig three seconds, three seconds ago.

Just digging into those layers of the characters, which you will and thematically is, and again, it's new. Do you have any sense of thematically what you want the show to be, you know, kind of running on? Is it, is it, I don't think it's parenting necessarily. Is there any word that comes to mind?

Rex: The only word specifically is loss. Right. However, that means to each character. Right. And how that is manifested through, through action and through need and through desire. 

Meg LeFauve: Loss is a great word, and what's great about it is their job is to refuse that loss. Their job is to fix that loss, regain, right?

And how are they doing that in their own personal lives or not, right? Are they getting overwhelmed by it or not? So I think that would be powerful stuff. 

Lorien McKenna: But then, then in Lost, too, there's the, it's like the parents, you're showing that, like, everybody deals with that differently, right? Some people look guilty because they've shut it down.

Then you can have the hope part, you know, where everybody, if they, when they find the lost little boy, everybody has that. A sense of hope. But then there's the 

Meg LeFauve: next one. Yeah. And what's great about your show too, in terms of usually when people pitch TV shows, we spend most of our time talking about the engine, but because it's a procedural, they just immediately have an engine.

So you don't have to worry about that. There has to be an engine to the relationships, right? Which is why they're going to pitch to you. Can they be in love? Because that's an easy engine like that. So if you're very 

Lorien McKenna: clear upfront. No. I mean, in terms of, these are their relationships, this is their belief system, their point of view.

Meg LeFauve: And, and how they're helping each other through laws and is, is what's evolving in the relationship the emotional intimacy of being honest with each other about stuff versus, you know, not, right? So that something is evolving. I mean, I think 

Rex: that's really interesting because, you know, how honest are they being to each other when they have to be honest as they're working together to solve the case.

How honest are they being as people, as well as how honest are they being as policemen? 

Meg LeFauve: Right, because the whole first season could be about them starting to be honest with each other and forming a relationship. So that I'm loving watching them come together and, oh, I know she didn't tell her that. Oh boy, you know, but she didn't tell him that, you know, so that you're watching them.

And then the second season, because they will... You know, want to know, then if they've come together and we love them as a team, then the second season, what's happening to that team, right? And the third season, what's happening to that team? And you have to have at least three seasons to tell me about the relationship and how it's moving.

And listen, procedurals, people want to tune in to see what they want to see. They want to see the same thing over and over. So there is a network version of the show where they're really not changing. And that they are exactly the two people that they are every week. I, because I come from features, tend to like the shows that evolve over the course of the season.

So, you know, that's a choice that you need to make right away. Is this a network show? That is a procedural? And what I'm tuning in for is that this team will always be this team. And I know how she's going to react, and I know how he's going to react. And it's juicy, and I love it. Like Cagney and Lacey. Even though there's some evolution, of course, but really...

Cagney's Cagney and Lacey's Lacey and forever that will be what it is. Or is it more of a streamer where you're giving them a procedural, which they would love by the way but there's this evolving storylines over the season arcs too. And then you pitch them at least three, right? And for the networks, they want, you know, a hundred episodes.

So that's why it can always be the same and it can be interchangeable and all that stuff that was talked about in the other keynote. And for the 

Lorien McKenna: pilot, it's important to start in the action. Right? Like, I'm going to read your pilot. I want to know that it's a procedural. Right? We can spend a lot of time with exposition and introductions.

And, but I want to see that exposition in how they're solving the case. And the things they're telling each other and not telling each other. And then, oh wait, you know, like Nurse Jackie. Remember Nurse Jackie? The pilot for Nurse Jackie? I think I was a bit too young 

Rex: for that. 

Lorien McKenna: It just came out. How dare you?

Rex: That sounded funny in my head to 

Meg LeFauve: be honest. It was 

Lorien McKenna: funny. I thought it petticoat junction or something. Good grief. Nurse Jackie came out like last year. Fine, we're not going to talk about 

Meg LeFauve: it. Keep going. Petticoat junction. Oh 

Lorien McKenna: my gosh. Petty Joke Junction, then let's talk about high school. 

Meg LeFauve: Did awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Do

Lorien McKenna: you want to pick the next one? Thank you. Good luck. Awesome. 

Meg LeFauve: No, no, you pick. You're the picker. 

Lorien McKenna: All right, you guys. Who's sending me the strongest vibe?

Chris Brown.

Shaking his head. Did I pronounce that one right? You guys are not exactly have the best penmanship. This is a note to everyone. Does that say brown? It's like... 

Meg LeFauve: It does kind of say brown. 

Chris : Yeah, 

Meg LeFauve: unfortunately so far. Hi, Chris. Hi, welcome. Yeah, 

Chris : hello. Yeah, hello. 

Meg LeFauve: I know, you're a bit on the spot. It's all good.

Take a breath. Feel your feet. Do 

Lorien McKenna: that too. 

Chris : Okay. Okay. So, the project I'm working on currently is a feature film. It's called Kindred at the moment working title. So, it's actually very Pixar ish. Inspired by a certain movie about feelings. 

Meg LeFauve: That I love. Is it an animated movie or no?

It is an animated movie. Okay, animated movie, Kendrick. Got 

Chris : it. Kendrick. You basically start in, in the world human world. This character named Zora, she's a photojournalist. She is trying to get this picture of the shady deal going on. And you realize you kind of move into this other world.

And you notice it's about this like kind of reckless dog spirit is kind of like navigating her or managing her movements, what she does is it's, it's pushing her to do certain things. And she's working with the teammate, this kind of jaded dog, this other coyote. And she, they're not jelling at all.

They're just not doing well. And, come to find out these are like spirits, spirit animals, and they mine human interaction in order to sustain their world. 

Meg LeFauve: Sustain the human world or the? Sustain their spirit world. Their spirit world. Yes. So like monsters ain't kind of. 

Chris : Yeah, it's kind of a symbiotic relationship.

So humans get, you know, you get the liveliness, you get the energy that you need to, to, to move on, to push your, to push yourself, but you're also sustaining the astral world. And so they basically a new, the coyote spirit quits because another spirit can't work with Kendra. She's her, oh, dog, dog spirit, her name is Kendra Barkley.

Kendra Barkley, she she's. Going through a few partners at this point and this is her last chance basically she gets paired up Usually they work with animals kind of near who they are, but she's kind of going through most of the dog spirit so now she has to be forced to work with Gale, Hedwin, and Eagle and He it's kind of rigid kind of no Kendra's not really about the rules.

She's more about guidelines and and Gale is more like Now we're going to do this the right way, and they clash, but come to find out that like he's got a past that he's holding on to that keeps him from, you know, really being himself and Kendra's dealing with Zora and Zora's having a hard time.

She's great at work, but her home life is kind of suffering because of it. And so you see the interactions between these worlds in between Zora and Gale as they They find, they get on the trail of kind of a conspiracy in her world that is kind of damaging the human world and the astral world. So reluctantly, Gail and Zora team up, or Gail and Kendra team up in order to save 

Meg LeFauve: both worlds.

And can Zora, Zora doesn't know they're there, kind of like inside out, really doesn't know? Has no 

Chris : idea. The spirit world really pushes on the human world without the interaction, without anybody knowing about. 

Lorien McKenna: So does the main action, I mean, great job. Thank you. 

Meg LeFauve: Thank you. So 

Lorien McKenna: the main action is in the spirit world.

So the main character is Kendra, Miss Barkley. Yes, Miss Barkley. Kendra Barkley. And so we're going to see how their guidance of the human sort of affects her and, and then as they're uncovering this. So the, so act two is them on the journey of uncovering this thing while also trying to help her get through whatever she's trying to get 

Chris : through.

Because Kendra wants, all Kendra wants is to pilot Zora by herself, like the old days. Each spirit animal was, Oh, so there's 

Lorien McKenna: a paradigm shift here. You have to have a partner now. You 

Chris : have to have a partner because. In the old days, people were always thriving and connecting, and it was 

Lorien McKenna: easier for each.

Listening to their, their guardian dogs. 

Chris : Since technology has arrived, people have gotten more complacent. It's harder to mine spirit energy from humans, so. Because they don't have anything anymore. Exactly. Okay. The Spirit Regulation Agency we need a 

Meg LeFauve: compliance, so it's... So is it like Monsters, Inc., where they're getting energy for their world from humans?

Yes, it's very similar. And then what do they give back to humans? What do humans get that they need? Humans get... That kind of alive presentness? Yeah, 

Chris : it's, it's, it's called well I call it inspiration. Okay. The, the fire, when fire, when man discovered fire. 

Meg LeFauve: Right. So it's like muses. They're almost like muses.

Yes, exactly. 

Lorien McKenna: So I'd be on my phone scrolling, and I'd get an idea, and my guardian would say, hey, go write that idea down. But I'd be like, or I can just sit here and keep scrolling. Exactly. 

Meg LeFauve: That would diminish the motion. And then if you do go write it down, what does the spirit world get? Is it a visual, like, look what, in Monsters, Inc.,

they made the canisters, right? So that it was very tactile. 

Chris : There was, there, okay, I will admit there are some similarities. 

Meg LeFauve: That's okay. No. That's every story 

Lorien McKenna: in the 

Chris : world. It's called a spirit meter, spirit energy, whatever it's called, but it's, it's, it's made to, but it also sustains all of their world. It like gives them food.

It gives them water. It sustains their entire world because the thing that connects the human world and the spirit world is something called, it's a giant structure called a tether, and it connects the two worlds. Oh, 

Lorien McKenna: so the worst thing that could happen is that they would break 

Meg LeFauve: apart. The tether would break.

Okay. So, and I'm assuming that in Act II that is the threat, that the tether is going to break. 

Chris : That is part of it, yes, but there is a, okay, let me get a little deeper into this because there's a lot of lore to this. Kendra they work for a company called Kendrit the mind, spirit, energy, and they're being taken over by Kind of the Amazon of their world.

There is a merger called Spira and This beautiful butterfly man is in charge of it. He's taking over the You know helping the world and he's like we're gonna help the merger and we're gonna make kindred better than ever and we're gonna save Our world and that's pretty much what it boils down to but they're like Gail used to be a guardian.

He used to be kind of a cop and something happened and he was Sent to Kindred to work there, so you kind of uncover some of their past and stuff that's happening there. So, 

Lorien McKenna: okay. I'm gonna ask you a question. So, what I'm seeing this movie, imagine it, the movie is up at, you know, Hollywood. What's the, the big theater on Hollywood Boulevard?

El Cap. Yeah, it's at the lcap. Okay. Packed audience. You've got the dancers. The whole thing is happening, right? The whole production at the end of the movie. What do you want me to feel? Not think, feel. 

Chris : I want you to feel connected. Because the, the theme of my film is connection. Like, in order for humanity to thrive, we need to be Connected to what?

Each other. To, you need to that's a, I see what you're saying here, but So 

Lorien McKenna: at the end of Inside Out Mhmm Why we're so moved by it is because, oh, we're not even allowed to feel sad. We're encouraged to feel sad. Being sad is healthy. And this sort of unlocked in all of us this like, Oh my God, I'm not bad or weak or some terrible pejorative thing for feeling sadness.

It's. So, at the end of Monsters, Inc., right? So, like, what do you want me to feel personally? So, connection is great. Okay. But, connected to what? Myself? My, my muse? Giving myself permission? Not only do I have permission to write it, I have a responsibility. I have, like, what it... 

Chris : Yes I think it's, I can't remember which love it is, it's not, it's not agape, it's one of the Greek ones, I think it's for mankind, humanity, it's that love in which, in order for us to succeed, there's, we have to be connected.

I don't know exactly how to, like, People 

Meg LeFauve: have to be connected, or we have to the spirit world? 

Chris : No, yes, we have to be the the spirit world, but the thing that makes the spirit world go, what they, in, in, like, Encourage is us to, you know, be our best to thrive, to do that, to do what we can to get there. And I, I think part of that is so many people think like, like Elon Musk, he thinks he believes that the only way to get forward is somebody has to be the smartest person and somebody has to build something for that.

And it's like, that's not necessarily it. What we need to do is work together. We need to make more farmland. We need to work together in order to make 

Meg LeFauve: the world a better place. So it's connection to each other. Yes. So we see 

Lorien McKenna: the human character, Sorry, I'm going to let you go, I just keep interrupting Meg.

She's being very gracious. So the human character, what is she going through? She's not connected, she's distant, and at the end, she becomes connected to the bigger 

Chris : world? Yes, but her journey is, She's trying to get, catch this shady deal so that this peace deal can go through, or yes, this peace deal for the city so they can get a better I think it's a green deal is what I put in the story because I've already written a full draft.

But what she's lost because Kendra's pushing her so hard is connecting with her family. She's getting divorced. She's losing her kid. She forgot the reason she was doing all of this. She lost that connection to her family because she was going so hard to paint. Because Kendra couldn't see, what's good for Kendra, yeah, is to be good at her job for her daughter.

But what's more than that is, she needs to be there for her daughter. Because that's why she 

Meg LeFauve: the first place. What is her action in the climax of the movie? The main character, who is the... Kendra? Kendra, yeah. What's her action in the climax of the movie? In the climax 

Chris : of the movie, her action is... She, she finally starts to begin to trust Gail and they work together like, cause she's So 

Meg LeFauve: trust.

She's very She's gonna, she's gonna trust Gail and they're gonna work together. Yes. What's her end of act two? Her end of 

Chris : act two what happens at the end of act two, they, I'm, it's, I can't remember 

Meg LeFauve: So just something to think about. Go for it. And it's all really interesting. So I, my brain is just these aren't comments or even criticism.

It's like, A, I'm trying to understand to make sure because I haven't read a script and B, just to because I've been where you are right now, which is a lot of stuff and Pete Docter loves a lot of stuff and you know, like the, but part of the job, as you know, as you start to write drafts is starting to pare it down and get really focused and what do you need and what is the story, right?

Of all this beautiful stuff, right? Yeah. So what? The word connection is such a big word, right? And it's a great word, and especially if, I don't know what draft you're on, but if you're in early drafts, that's a great, you know, at Pixar, or even at Disney Animation, you would just put the word on the wall.

Because everybody knows we're somewhere in the bucket of connection, right? But it's not yet a theme yet, because that's a big word. What it's what you're saying about connection. The how of it, or I mean there's a million movies inside of Connection. So what I immediately go to is, okay, whatever she's doing at the, whatever she realizes at the end of Act 2 is your thematic.

Okay. Okay, so whatever your main character kind of comes to realize about herself, please make it about herself and not just about other people, especially if it's a female character. She has to be the main character, which means she has to realize it about herself. The blindness, unless she's a claiming character like Moana, and we can talk about that.

It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like she needs to really learn to trust and become emotionally intimate so that she can have a partner. So does she just sound like a transformative character? So whatever she realizes about herself and therefore the world, And where she's gone off track is your emotional thematic.

So if, if it is about ultimately trusting her partner, then your movie is about the bucket of trust. I'm not saying you can't have a movie with trust and connection. You can, but at some point you also have to pick a pony. So that you can go deeper into that context. And so, because if it's about trust, I want to know about what, and this is where the lava starts to come in, right?

Like, what are you personally interested in, afraid of, blind about trust? Where do you have problems trusting? Because her journey right now does seem more to be about, I don't want to work with anybody else, I'm perfectly good by myself, I don't, why? Because I have a wound, I don't trust people because they always, always, always betray you.

Whatever. That's the easiest version, but. 

Chris : To that point, there is a backstory for her as well. She. Both of her, she doesn't like Gale at first because basically you sense that she doesn't like Guardians. She doesn't like the cops. But you realize that she lost both, her, one of the things she says in the movie is that Guardians always do things for others but never do anything for themselves.

And that's a thing she basically says. You find out that she lost both of her parents, that they were both guardians and they went out on a job and didn't come back. And she was like, 

Meg LeFauve: but what happened to a guardian that they wouldn't come back? 

Chris : They have similar, I mean, they have similar bodies in their world to us, so they can, they can die.

But, 

Meg LeFauve: but did, were they killed by a bad guy who we're going to see in Act 2? So this is again, I'm just digging around with you. So if you have a backstory that's super important like that, then Act 2 better be about it. So that's something to be careful of. I'm not saying you are into it. You have a lot of ideas, and I'm, and again it's a pitch so maybe it's hard, but the, I just want to warn you, having been where you are, that cause in Inside Out we have three worlds going, right?

We have Riley, we have the headquarters, and we have down below, right? So the, the trick of that movie is they constantly have to be affecting each other. Because if they're not, and they're just paralleling, out that scene goes. Like literally, anything that happens down here affects Headquarters, affects Riley, and Riley now affects it, and it's rippling back and forth when you have all these different worlds going.

So, they thematically all are traveling on the same line. Because if they're thematically even degrees off, you're gonna get confusion and mud. Right. Not clarity. Right? Because everybody, Riley, Headquarters, and Joy, and Sadness, are all really digging into the same thematic. Okay. So just be careful about that.

Meaning trust versus connection versus blah, blah, blah. And then world rules, it's hard on a pitch. You know, you gotta be super clear, and you will be, I'm sure, on the rules of what are the stakes of Guardians. I, I can't visually see it yet either. Like, and like on Inside Out, he's probably, and I wasn't there, you were, might have been there.

Like, he, they're drawing immediately. Mm hmm. to try to did he have drawings and paintings immediately to show the mind? Yeah, the art department 

Lorien McKenna: started almost immediately. Ralph Eccleston, who was a production designer, was already doing big concept 

Meg LeFauve: pieces. Because he's got to explain to the Powers that be.

This is the world. This is what the mind looks like. It's such a big part of it. So. And it helps 

Lorien McKenna: like when you have the big art, like even just a sketch of what headquarters might look like or what that world looks like with the, the lands. Right. Right. It felt like, oh, okay, we go from here to 

Meg LeFauve: here. It helps visually.

It'll help. So if you were to even give the script, you're probably also going to give some artwork. Yeah. So they can immediately see, and you might know that, but and then the other thing I wanted to say before I lose you is what was I gonna say? Because now I'm thinking about artwork. 

Lorien McKenna: I have one thing, which is I think there's a lot of things going on, right?

All great stuff. And it's about narrow it down. So like at the beginning of act one, what is Kendra's belief system? Something Meg talks about, right? Like, is it I'm responsible for my parents death and that's why I don't want to have a partner because I think I'm going to put you in jeopardy and kill you.

So then I'm going to just, and that's what we, that's 

Meg LeFauve: the belief system. If, often when movies are about trust, the person that, who is the person that you, that person doesn't trust themselves. So it, if you externalize that into I actually might have killed my parents, that I understand now something why trust is in the plot.

I'm 

Lorien McKenna: sorry, what? Yeah, now that's always good. Or is it something else, right? Sort of, that belief system is what, even what Jeff Melvoin was talking about, you know, the belief system. It's the same thing we are talking about, right? Belief system, it gets threatened, and then a new belief system. 

Meg LeFauve: And then how that she, and sometimes it's easier to think about the story really just from your main character's point of view.

In terms of I'm going to introduce you to this thing that's called a ghost spirit, and it looks like this, and these are the rules, and this is what happened to her, and what nobody knows is this is what happened, and then, and I'm meeting the human through her. Right? So that it's not too bifurcated.

I guess my last question for you, if I hope any of this has been helpful, is Why is it personal to you? 

Chris : It's, it's personal to me because I I was actually talking to some people about this yesterday. I have a problem with I, I, I, I have people, I think, don't always reach their maximum potential.

And I think that's because so many people believe that their maximum potential is focusing on something independent as opposed to, You know, I think humanity, a lot of humanity believe that if I'm the best I can be, me personally, I can achieve something. And it's like, technically that's true, but if you're not trying to achieve something for the greater good or with the greater good, I don't think that matters at the end of the day.

And how is that 

Meg LeFauve: personal 

Chris : to you? Personal to me? I, well, because it's for me, I think writing for me personally, Is that great or good? And I, I, I don't, I think that like, media is we don't talk to each other through books. We don't talk to each other through a lot of certain things. We talk to each other through movies and TV shows.

Okay, 

Meg LeFauve: what's so interesting to me, and but I want to put you on the spot. You're staying in your intellect. Pretty hardcore. Right. Which means there's a lot of lava down there. Yeah. Because your brain, and it's fair, we're in front of audience, it's a podcast, I'm not gonna ask you to go beyond your intellect, but your intellect is protecting you right now, and it's very smart and really interesting, so I'm not even commenting on what you're saying, but you're still not telling me how it's personal to you.

Lorien McKenna: So there's think, know, and feel. And you're talking about what you think. And then there's know, I know what kind of shoes I'm wearing. I know, I know what I'm gonna, what I ate for breakfast. Then there's feel. 

Chris : Then the answer is, I don't know. Perfect. What a boy's attitude. 

Meg LeFauve: Like, well, in this moment. No, and you don't have to know right now.

But I'll just tell you that a lot of the work at Pixar is hours and hours and hours of answering that personal question. Gotcha. And and we all have to bring it every day. You can feel very naked at Pixar. Because you're constantly having to bring that to the table every day. So, and what I just want to show to you and for your next draft or what you're thinking about as you get notes or whatever's going to happen, is the rudder is going to be allowing that to come up into the center of the story.

The theme is emotional, it's not intellectual. The theme is going to be something that is your lava, is, you know, makes you feel vulnerable. And then once you start to get that in your hands, right, That becomes the rudder for all the other choices of all that other great stuff you have. Do you see what I'm saying?

Like if you said to me, I'm making this up, you know, I I had my brother, was my very best friend in the whole world, and he betrayed me, and to get back at him, I did this horrible thing, and I ruined his life. And so I want to talk about, I want to talk about trust. And, and my own power that I'm really afraid to unleash, because the one time I unleashed it, it was in Revenge, and look what it did.

And so suddenly I'm understanding, Oh, yeah, I get what you want to talk about. Okay, let's get in and pick some story stuff, right? Because now, the story is going to be driven by this heat. Right, and I know what to help you pick. Otherwise, I don't know what to help you pick. Everything is interesting. It's all intellectually cool, but I have to pick based on that heat.

So like Pete Docter literally would make us go on walks. And he would go on long, long walks. Because he intuitively is a genius at staying connected to that. Right? And he was not going deep enough. He knew when he started he wanted to talk about what happened to his girl, little girl, when she was 11.

Because before she turned 11 she was like, she would meet people at the front door and be like, Hello! I'm going to do a tap dance for you, because I'm fabulous. And she was very happy. And then at 11 she got very into herself and He said, I lost my little girl's joy and I want to find out where she went.

Okay, we're not a story yet We're at a situation Right? But he's got a personal question that he's driving towards. What happened, your, what this emotion can be about can be a question you have based on something that happened in your life. And that question starts to rudder the whole thing. Do you see what I'm saying?

He's saying, what happened to my little girl's joy? But see, the problem with that doesn't drive a story yet because it's still outside of him. Like... For the first pitch, be careful, because the emotional thematic happened to your brother, not you. So it's going to echo out, and not have the power of something that you experience.

I'm not saying you can't do that, I'm just saying that's gonna be, you've gotta still put you inside of it. So, as he's developing it, he decides, well, you know, when I was in middle school, I was a really scared kid, so, it must be with fear. But, he would get back joy, and he knew he wanted joy to get lost in the mind, and then come back.

And who is she with? What's the main relationship? It's going to be fear. But he said every time they came back, he didn't have anything to say about fear. He just emotionally didn't have an insight or some experience or something of what he wants to say to the world about fear. And so he was realizing when I came on, he was just starting to realize, I think it might be sadness.

And in the original DVD release, I wish Disney Plus, if you're listening, would put this on Disney Plus, because it's so amazing. He takes a camera, and he's walking in the woods up in San Francisco, and he's talking to himself. And he's literally saying, I, okay, I think this movie is gonna get shut down.

Imagine that. Multiple Academy Awards. So just know, your, your, your imposter syndrome, your doubt about your story, that is part of the creative process. It doesn't mean you're not a writer, it doesn't mean it's not good, it means you're right on track. Pete Docter is walking in the woods saying, My movie's gonna get shut down.

I don't know what my movie is. People are walking out of the theater and they're saying, It's a good idea. And by now they should be saying, It's a good, it's a movie. And he can't figure it out, he can't figure it out, he's got too many pieces, right? And so, he's walking and talking, he's like, and this is what he does, which is amazing, and why he's who he is.

He doesn't move away into his intellect when he hits that fear of my movie shutting down. He moves down into it. So you can watch him walk and go, Okay, so, what's gonna happen when I, my, they shut my movie down? Well, I'm gonna first lose my house, because I'll get fired. And well, that would be bad, to lose my house.

Wow, I would... That, okay, but is that, you know, is that really what I'm the most afraid of? And he's like, no, actually, I think the worst part would be I couldn't come to Pixar every day. Okay, if I can't come to Pixar, you see how he's going deeper and deeper. If I can't come to Pixar every day, Why is that bad?

Why does that make me feel, well, I'm going to really miss the people. It's not the place, it's the people. Okay, why am I going to miss the people? I'm going to miss the people because of all the fun times we've had. You know, we've had so much 

Lorien McKenna: fun. Oh no, you're making me sad about leaving Pixar. 

Meg LeFauve: So he's like, but look, he's going to go down one more because he's not there yet, right?

He doesn't feel vulnerable yet. He doesn't feel that lava coming up. He's coming up. You can see it on his face. It's starting to come up. And he goes, okay, I'm going to miss all the happy people. But you know what I, I, what I'm going to really miss is all the hard times we've had. And that, how that has bonded us.

Because they lost, lost Joe Ranft, which was an original founder of Pixar in a car accident. And they lost Steve Jobs. And other, many other things. But that, those losses, bound, bound them together in a deep way of connection. And that connection of having lost together, and suffered together, is what he would miss.

That emotional intimacy and suddenly he went, he goes, Oh, it's sadness. And you can watch him go down, down, down, right? So, now we have a rudder. Now, I mean, there's all kinds of challenges to what he wants to do. But now I know as a writer. I can absolutely, like, so for the first thing is, well, then sadness has to be on the journey.

You don't even have her on the journey. Like, all kinds of stuff. We can start to really roll because we have this emotional rudder about sadness. And the first thing I say to him is, you know that means we have to cry at the end of this movie. Is John Lasseter going to let us? We cry because if the, if the thematic is accept sadness, you're going to have to do it in the movie.

And what's really interesting, just as a side point, so often, The very thing you're asking the audience to, the character to do in your script, you are not doing. Because it's not an emotional thing you have yet processed fully, so you're not doing it in the script and you're doing the opposite to your character.

It would be like, okay, we're going to put sadness in the dump and have Joy go find her. Well, are we asking Joy to confront her own sadness? No, we're protecting her from the very theme that we're trying to do. It's just, it's a really interesting thing that the brain does. That is not what you're doing, because I don't know your story well enough, but so that rudder, you don't have to do it right now with us, but it's something, that would be the next thing if I was working with you.

I would say, do not pass go, do not go anywhere else until you start digging down. You can look at the end of act two for this that's where it should be coming up, that subtext, that love is coming up into context. You can look at your favorite scenes and why you love them. You can look at the scenes that you cannot get right and why can't you get them right because the lava might be sitting right under there and your brain is like, Don't look over there!

Just don't even look over there! It might be a flat character often, it's weird. The brain will flatten out a character because it's very afraid of what's... So I would do some exercises, not to promote Lorian, but she does do these exercises with people to pull their lava up. I would start to do that to get into something that really makes you shake a little bit.

And then I would then start to build around that. Okay. Take it or leave it. Take it or 

Lorien McKenna: leave it. I want to say, I love your concept. I love your concept. It's wish fulfillment. I wish I had dogs or animals like, you know, guardian angel, like helping me, inspiring me, like that feels very comforting. And I love the idea of a spirit world and they're paying attention that we fuel each other and that there is that symbiotic relationship, which is what you're talking about in terms of connection.

Right. If one of us falls down, we all fall down. Right. But I really love the concept. So Meg just talked a lot about of. All the ways you're going to be like, Oh, my God, I don't have anything. What do I have and how do I fix this? But I think the concept is really good. And if I saw this in a trailer, I'd be like, 

Meg LeFauve: Yeah, let's go.

Yeah, I would, too. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Hi, Simon. Hi. It's great to be here. Wonderful to have you. Hi. 

Simon: My story is a comedy heist feature film. It's called Waiting for Robbo. So it's an Australian film. And it's about, it kicks off with two members of a kind of dysfunctional gang who are waiting in their car.

Had a deserted beach for the other two members of the gang to turn up after a a heist where they've inserted themselves between a gang of female bikies and a strange branch of the Finnish Mafia who are operating in regional Australia, as, as they do. And so the two main characters are Cole and Eric, and they're waiting for Robbo and Fat Boy.

Bring it, Fat Boys. A young, thin girl, actually, who's, they're the other two members of the gang. And as they're waiting, they start going over the heist in their mind, replaying what actually happened. And they realize that they have different versions, and things didn't go according to plan. And as time got ticks Robbo is...

Not coming. They, they, they decide that Robbo has, you know, tricked them all. And then they find out they've got Robbo gave them backup plans. Like an envelope with open at, this at three o'clock if everything else goes wrong. They both open their, their, these backup plans, which say they should shoot each other and burn the car and, you know.

In the meantime they, they, they discover that fat boys actually in the dunes with a high powered rifle taking potshots at them. They finally open the boot of the car which is where the, the, the, the jewels are meant to be. The, the, the McGuffin of the story. And the, and they find in the boot of the car is robbo.

Who's been bound and gagged and is that enough to kick off? Well, what's 

Meg LeFauve: act two? So we've got a fun set up, 

Simon: but the 

Meg LeFauve: movie is The Yellow Brick Road, right? So what's your Yellow Brick Road? So, 

Simon: none of them really seem to know what happened to the, to the... To, to, to the, to the jewels. And the, the end of Act Two is that the, the bikeys and the Finnish Mafia turn up to get revenge on the gang, because they don't know where the, where the stuff is either.

And there's a massive shootout which leaves Robbo dead. And the, the, the gang are happy that The, the robos been killed. They find on him what they think are the, are the jewels, which, but are actually another set of fakes. And everybody leaves leaving the two main characters, Eric and Cole back where they started.

And then they finally work out where the real stuff is, but it's been accidentally buried on, on the beach. So that's kind of, that's kind of the ending. 

Meg LeFauve: Okay, so lots of fun, fun stuff there. And I want to see the movie. It's a movie, right? Yes. I totally want to see this movie. It's reminding me kind of Sexy Beast and, I don't know, Tonally, if that's about right.

Which I love that movie. I don't quite yet know what Act Two is. And who the main character is? Or are there two main characters? Is it the two people that are told to shoot each other? Are they the main characters? They're the 

Simon: main characters. And who are they? Okay, so, Eric is an older guy, fifties.

He's a bit of a plotter. He he just wants This is the last heist for him. He's going to leave this gang, he's the last chance, he's finally going to make some decent money and go off and have a cruiser. And Cole is much younger, he's the driver of the gang, and he's like the idiot savant, he's the clown.

He's, he lives in the moment. He fiddles and he can't sit still. And do they 

Meg LeFauve: like each other or not like each other? 

Simon: They, they're kind of like a family. They love each other, but they don't like each other. So... 

Meg LeFauve: But they don't want to shoot each other. They don't, they definitely don't want to shoot each other.

They're kind of making a choice that we're not going to do what these things say. And we're not going to shoot each other. But there 

Simon: is a moment where, where... Call because he believes that he's got to do everything that Robbo tells him he's gonna do this But he he's happy to be talked out of it. Okay, 

Meg LeFauve: so So is it a dual?

Protagonist then they each have their own point of view on the thing there 

Simon: is but in my head Eric the old the older He's going to go on a bigger journey, right? 

Meg LeFauve: Okay. And so where, what is his end of act two? 

Simon: His end of act two is that it's become clear to him that he's not going to get anything out of this heist that he's been living endlessly for the future to arrive, to make him happy.

He, he, he's always annoyed by Cole, who's living in the present permanently and making fun out of the world as he, as he lives. And he, all his dreams are just collapsed in front of him. He's not going to get anything out of this host. So 

Meg LeFauve: what's interesting about that, again, I'm not saying you didn't do any of these things, we're just digging around.

Those are all things that he's realizing that happened to him. Versus what he created himself. So what is his self responsibility at the end of Act II? Is it transformative? Like, I have chosen a life, or why, maybe ask why he has to live in the future? What is so scary to him about living in the present?

Right? So, because again, I'm not saying that's not an interesting idea, but I don't feel anything yet when you say it. When, when people say their end of act two is I want to feel it in my body, not just think it in my head. So, I like the idea of I've been living in the future because I don't want to live in the present because Why doesn't he want to live in the present?

Simon: What, what's revealed at the end of Act 2 is, cause he keeps talking about he's gonna go on this cruise with his wife, Joni, and what's revealed is his, his wife actually left him two years ago. She's not there anymore. So 

Meg LeFauve: he's living kind of a fantasy. Correct. And why did she leave him? 

Simon: That's a good question.

I don't know. 

Meg LeFauve: But that's the question. Do you see how that might be the question of the rudder? Yeah. Again, being left is something that happens to you. Do you hear the reaction? So, that's, but, why does, what does he believe? Whether it's right or wrong, by the way, of why she left him. And, it could just be this whole movie has been about him avoiding admitting.

What is the truth of why she left him? Like, I think of Officer and a Gentleman where he is pushing him, and pushing him, and pushing him, and pushing him, until finally, at the end of Act Two, he starts screaming, I GOT NO PLACE TO GO! And this, this thing that's been sitting under this amazing character, what an amazing character that character is because he's such an asshole and he's such a scumbag to start because he's, that's his survival instinct until finally this guy breaks him.

And as soon as he can say, cause I got no place to go. Now you can be a gentleman. Now you can be an officer. Right? So, that break of why she left him, what he believes about himself, which may be through learning with this experience with this other kid he's realizing isn't true, or it is true, and he has been creating this whole movie because he won't It just loves that part of himself or admit that part of himself or that he made a mistake and it's okay.

I mean, there's a million reasons of, you know, I got no place to go. Why? Because you, you got nobody in your life. You have created that. Yeah, right. So there's To find that would start to become for me like the rudder of a rewrite, right? Like once you start digging that up and something that will make you feel vulnerable, I can start to say, okay, well then in the plot, where does he start to learn the opposite?

Or how does anyway, so go ahead, Lauren. 

Lorien McKenna: Is there an actor you have in mind to play him? Like an actor that really... speaks to you, whether he's alive or dead or 

Simon: old or young. Yeah, there is actually, he's my brother. Okay. Who is an actor. But imagine, I don't know, imagine Russell Crowe. Russell Crowe, okay.

Lorien McKenna: Russell Crowe, what era of Russell Crowe are we talking about? 

Simon: He hasn't done much good for a while has he? Like is it 

Lorien McKenna: Gladiator Russell Crowe? Or is it Les Mis Russell Crowe? 

Simon: It's more contemporary Russell Crowe. Eric is sort of overweight, 55. Yeah, a bit. Okay. 

Lorien McKenna: But he's got this physical, like, past his prime kind of thing.

Sorry, Russell Crowe, if you're listening but you know, that sort of energy, he's not listening. It's okay. That sort of energy. Okay. So that helps me sort of understand that there's like this strength and this like, the other thing behind, like the, he's in a, it's got a shield around him. Yeah. 

Meg LeFauve: And Russell Crowe's characters, and I say this with admiration, they're highly skilled.

And they are a little bit know it alls, a little bit, a little bit. So that there's something to break down. There's something to break down that know it all ness that, again, I'm not saying you're not doing that in your script, but there's, there is a shield, there's a mask to get through, and then something that just an exercise you can do when you pick the character is you can chart Russell Crowe as an actor.

He's probably traveling on the same structure, character transformation, like structure is just character transformation. He is probably just traveling on that. Midpoints generally don't line up, I think, but you can look at three, five Russell Crowe movies where he is leading supporting doesn't work as well, and how do we meet him, who is he, what does he believe about himself, what does he believe about the world, what are his skills, flaws, just look at all that in act one, and then where is he, you know, what is the inciting incident, what What, where is he as a character at the end of Act One, where what is his new goal and plan at the end, at the start of Act Two?

What is the midpoint? Generally they don't line up. What is his end of Act Two as a character? Because this is all the character points where they're giant shifts are happening. And then what does he do in the climax? And you'll start to see a pattern emerge. And this is just a writing exercise. Yeah.

And then you take that pattern and you stick it on your script and you're like, Oh my God, I'm totally not doing that. And it just starts to show you the places that you're kind of skating by or you're not pushing him hard enough. Angelina Jolie has different patterns when she's in a big studio movie or when she's in an indie film.

When she's in a big studio movie, she is the most powerful person and she has to learn humility. And when she's in an indie film, she's a humble... Like she's not claiming her power, and she has to claim her power, and they're completely reversed. But she's kind of exploring the same thing, but from opposite sides.

Nicole 

Lorien McKenna: Kidman has this throughout her career. You can track her movies, like she's the victim, she's saved, and then at now, she's like... A badass powerhouse right at the beginning so but like it's her career in the movie shift that you can see happening It's real. I love 

Meg LeFauve: her thing. It's just an exercise to do to find that end of act two The most important thing is that end of act two emotionally resonates with you But to help you find it sometimes looking at those characters can help you get into a sandbox at least Oh, yeah, what seem that they seem to be doing over and over there any 

Simon: risks running with a specific?

Actor in mind? 

Meg LeFauve: Some, some writers absolutely say don't do it, and some writers say they do. It just is such a personal thing. I like to have an actor but some people really, really don't. I don't start with an 

Lorien McKenna: actor because I feel it's distracting when I'm writing, but then once I've written it, I'm like, oh, who would be great for this?

For a pitch, you have to be able to show comps like, it's Kristen Milioti, or it, you know, it just tells a different tone. But I think... There's danger in only writing for that specific actor because then another actor will read it and 

Meg LeFauve: be like, I can't do this. It's more, it's more a tool if you want to, like, look, it's like a frame to put on it, so it's just a tool in your toolbox.

I'm not at all saying create from that. I'm saying once you've got your script and you've done a couple of drafts and if you're stuck. This is a way to maybe see why, where you're stuck, so 

Lorien McKenna: one thing I want to ask about, and you don't have to answer this, is if you're writing this for your brother to be in, that's the piece that I'm like, why?

Why is this about your brother? Why is your brother this character? Like, those are all the why's I have in terms of maybe, 

Meg LeFauve: the love isn't. Are you the future guy or the present guy? 

Simon: No, I think, I think my biggest fear in life is turning into Eric, this character who doesn't live in the moment. Who's, because Cole is, Cole is this childlike character who lives in the moment, who never, never thinks about what's going to be the consequences of anything.

And we laugh at him and, but he's, he's a delight to be with, but Eric is so annoyed 

Meg LeFauve: by him. But what's so amazing and what I love about your, what you're exploring is there is a grey zone because there is also a problem to only living in the moment. There is, those people, like my son, they tend to need to be taken care of.

Right? Because they're always, you know, they're, that isn't black and white, right? And it's just that he's out of balance, right? And probably he'll still be who he is, right? But I do think there's something emotional underneath why you don't want to live in the present. Like that, that and why she left him.

That is where, that's the real thing you're exploring. And I don't know what that is because we have to know why she left him. And be careful, because you might say, well, because he's always at work. Okay, why is he always at work? You have to keep asking why until you start to feel that shudder coming up, right?

Great. 

Lorien McKenna: But I love a heist movie, and I love like, what was the movie with Ryan O'Renolds? And where it was all like the big reversals at the end, like all the trickery. What was that movie? It had Red in the title. You know, it's the movie with the thing, yeah, the movie with the, the movie with the thing with the guy.

Anyway, I love a heist movie. Is it Red Notice? Red Notice. That's the one. Oh my God. I've, I've had half a cup of coffee, okay? You know where there's, oh it's gonna be this, this is the answer, and then there's this big twist that sort of changes everything you've seen up till that point, and I feel like that's what you're doing, right?

And I, that's so 

Meg LeFauve: fun. And I'm, I'm really looking for, and I love Fat Boy being the thin girl in the dunes with his rifle. Love it. Yes. Love it. You're breaking archetypes and combining archetypes, which I love it. You know, I just think of Sexy Beast, which I'm pretty sure is Sexy Beast, right? Where he's in his pool at the beginning and then that giant rock comes down and it's just such a wonderful metaphor for what's coming to the sky.

So it just, it's, it's awesome. And so. Can't wait to see it. Great job. Thank you. 

Simon: Thank you very much.