210 | Monk Creator Andy Breckman: How To Find Luck In Hollywood

Whether it was writing for SNL in the '80s, writing RAT RACE in the 90s, or creating MONK in the 2000s, it's no secret that Andy Breckman has had an incredible career. What does he chalk it up to? Luck (and a whole lot of hard work).

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. Meg is out today, but Jeff and I are going to be chatting with feature writer, producer, and showrunner Andy Breckman. 

Jeff: Andy Breckman is best known for creating Monk, which stars Tony Shalhoub as a private detective with OCD and multiple phobias. Monk was both a critical and commercial success during its run, winning eight Emmys. This year, Monk returned for a movie on Peacock called Mr. Monk's Last Case, a Monk movie, earning Andy yet another Emmy nomination for Outstanding Television Movie.

Lorien: Andy's been working in comedy for years, starting as a writer on David Letterman's inaugural season and eventually moving over to SNL, where he wrote for the show for nearly a decade. On the feature side, Andy has written a number of studio comedies, including Sergeant Bilko starring Steve Martin. Hi, Andy. Welcome to the show. 

Andy Breckman: Hi guys. It's a pleasure. Inviting me. 

Lorien: We're really excited. 

Andy Breckman: On your 210th episode. 

Lorien: 210. It's a magic number. 

Andy Breckman: I guess my line was busy.

Lorien: Well, you have a movie out now we want to talk about. 

Andy Breckman: No, I've been so busy. I couldn't have fit you in before this anyway. 

Lorien: So we're really looking forward to chatting with you. I have lots of questions about your time on SNL. Before we do, we're going to be talking about our weeks or what we like to call "Adventures in Screenwriting."

So I'll go first. So, my week this week was not amazing. I mean, I had a general I am up for staffing on a project, which is amazing. And I wrote a pilot script and I'm working on another script and all of that is like, yay, I'm working, I'm moving forward. All of that can be something, or all of it can be nothing, but it's hard to look at the big picture when I don't really know what the little pieces are.

And I find myself catastrophizing a lot, which triggers all of my,, like fraud syndrome and my anxiety, and all the expectations of what I think I'm supposed to be and how I'm disappointing myself and the world,, specifically around the podcast in terms of what I think people want and need from me and what I'm not delivering.

 Everything feels larger than it needs to be, which is funny because I, you know, watching the Monk movie and remembering watching Monk and it just felt so personal and reminded me so much of the journey I've been on the last, I don't know how many years, but it's been it's been a tough week for that.

And I realized so much of my overachieving and overproducing Which is somehow my superpower, right? I get things done, I meet expectations, and yet they're also my super flaw. And so, especially the talking about Monk, it just really, I really felt like watching that movie. I was like, Oh, this is my week.

And dealing with grief and loss, which I always am. I just, I'm really excited to talk to you about that. And, you know, on the show, we talk a lot about lava, which is that. Sort of vulnerable place you have to get to when you're writing. It sort of bubbles up and feels hot and burny and like how close do you want to get it to it, to tell the truth.

And I feel like I am floating on my back in lava this week and I am catastrophizing, that's what I'm doing. And it is a delight. And it is really hard. So coming to the podcast to be like, I'm inspiring is like. Maybe not. So that's been my week. 

Andy Breckman: I didn't, I had no idea when I said, how are you, that I would really learn "how are you?" What a great-- this is fantastic. This is real. 

Lorien: So yeah, that's me. Jeff, how was your week? 

Jeff: I've had an interesting week. First of all, I feel so much of what you're saying, Lorien, and appreciate you sharing that on the show. It's a weird time in general for all of us, I think in the industry.

So, I am working on sort of a spec feature that someone's excited, about a producer I really like, which is exciting, but I feel like I'm still early enough that I'm trying to balance like committing to an idea and outlining it, versus trying something new and outlining that. And it's that hard thing when you're writing drafts, you get a great idea that you're excited about, but you can feel the pieces of act one crumbling as you chase that in act three.

And just the balance of, you know, we talk sometimes on the show, Andy, about the idea of 'pick a pony.' And just as you're writing, especially in the early stages, just committing to an idea and sticking to it. But it's hard when you can feel that idea not working, and your writing is pushing you towards something that you know, works better, whether or not to do it.

Continue with the old thread and see how it plays out or push towards something new, knowing you'll have to kind of reconstruct the rubble that sort of broke in act one as you're fixing things. So it's all good. The good news is I still feel excited enough about the idea and the world that as these plot things are kind of crumbling and resurrecting and crumbling I'm happy enough with like the characters and who they are and kind of the general world that I'm sticking with it, but I'm a little bit unmoored I feel right now. 

Lorien: So Andy, how was your week? 

Andy Breckman: Well, you know, it's so funny. If you had asked me any other week in the last year, any, if you would pick any other week to do this show, I would have I would have used the word catastrophizing as well. You know, like most writers, what I tell kids when they ask me, and they hardly ever do, is all you need to build a career is one good phone call a year. That's it. You're going to get up. You're going to get thousands of phone calls every year. All you need is one good one. And I've had a couple of good phone calls recently. So any other week of the year, I'd be commiserating with you. I'd be in the trenches with you. But this week I've been busy. I have two projects that are very that are viable and writing, where I'm working through the outline of a of another Monk movie on the sequel. 

Lorien: Oh, awesome. 

Andy Breckman: Which is a lot of fun because I love my partners there you know, my creative partners. I love that team and I love those characters and I know those characters now and, you know, they're like family. So that's good. I haven't been this busy in a while. I have a pilot shooting in February for CBS. 

Lorien: That's awesome. 

Andy Breckman: So that's going. So we're casting that. So, this week I've been dodging agents calling me. They have clients that, you know, that they want to pitch for CBS. And so I've been talking to casting people about casting the CBS pilot. This week I've been busy, but I certainly spend most of my time stressed out and catastrophizing. I'm going to use that word now. I own that word now. 

Lorien: You're welcome. 

Andy Breckman: Thank you for that. Yeah. You learn one new word a day. 

Lorien: It's not from me. It's from years of therapy. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, it is? 

Lorien: That's a therapy thing. 

Andy Breckman: But now if you use that in Scrabble, if we were playing Scrabble, I would challenge that for one. Yeah, because for one thing, it would be at least a seven letter word and you would beat me if I don't. 

Lorien: I'm sure there are Scrabble forums that we could ask. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, yeah, that's a whole different. That's another show. 

Lorien: I'm wretched at Scrabble, so I can't even. Oh, then it's on. 

Andy Breckman: If you're really bad at Scrabble, we'll put money on the game. That's how I do it. So that's how I've been, unusually. And it's unusual for me. This is kind of the third act of my career. I'm in my late sixties. A lot of my contemporaries have already moved on and they're doing teaching. And so I feel very fortunate that I've extended my career by a few months.

Lorien: I love it. I love the idea of all you need is one good phone call a year. 

Andy Breckman: There's a corollary to that. If I could just very quickly, when you get that good phone call, as soon as that phone call is over, turn your phone off. Because they're going to call back, they reconsidered, and you don't want to get that, you don't want to get that other, next phone call.

So.

Lorien: They're like, wait, are you this Andy? 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was looking for Andrew Bergman. 

Lorien: Yes. 

Andy Breckman: Turn the phone off and go out and take your family out for milkshakes. 

Lorien: Yes, that's lovely. 

Andy Breckman: And celebrate. I'm sorry, I interrupted. So you got your phone call last year? 

Lorien: No. Just in the last 10 years since I've been in LA, I look back and like, it's been like one good project that year, maybe two, right? That really, like, I got that one phone call that allowed me then to create more stuff. Yeah, and so that's August right now. We're post strike. 

Andy Breckman: You'll get it. Your phone will ring. 

Lorien: It will ring any minute. 

Andy Breckman: This may be some consolation. I've so I'm 69 years old, born in 55. But I was 25 when I got Letterman. I've been 44 years in the trenches and I've been developing about two projects a year. Some of them spec scripts, some of them I was a writer for hire. Some of them just very detailed pitches I took out. So over those 44 years, I recently went back and cataloged. I went back through all my emails and all my files in my basement. A lot of them predate. Emails, that's how I started, I was on a typewriter and so I went back through all of them and I catalog them. I inventoried them like a little spreadsheet. I made a list and I have developed, like, seriously developed, 80 projects. 80 in my career. And of those 80, I've had movies made, I've had five or six movies made, I've worked on TV staffs, I've made a living, could support myself, but I only had any real success, I saw a real paycheck real payday with one project that was a Monk. I have a piece of Monk.

So my batting average is 1 for 80. That's my batting out. And when I say that I'm bragging, you know, that's good. 1 for 80. But that's 79 projects that fizzled or disappointed. And it's an interesting question. I would need therapy myself. What kept me going all those years? Everybody has a different answer. But for me, it was the fact, I think, that I had no other skill set whatsoever. I was just being thrown into the deep end. 

Lorien: So of all those shows you developed, and then I imagine all the projects that you didn't fully develop, right?

Andy Breckman: Sure, it's an endless list. 

Lorien: I just bought a new computer, right, so I had to transfer all of my files over, and I was looking at the same kind of cataloging, like, Oh my god, all these ideas I've had, all these things I've actually developed. So you've worked on all these projects, how do you think they did helped you get to be able to succeed with Monk in the way that you did? Or do you think it was luck? 

Andy Breckman: Oh my gosh, it's so much of it is luck and timing and you know for a pilot to come together and work 18 things have to fall your way. 18. If 17 fall your way, but you don't, but you don't get the right cast yourself. It really is it really is luck.

You know, there's a great thing. You have to be, you have to be ready to be lucky. And With Monk, everything fell our way. Everything from the network was a fledgling network that needed product that needed a hit, and we quickly became the flagship show. We were very important to them.

Tony Shalhoub, casting is, in TV especially, 98 percent of it. My advice to anyone is cast Tony Shalhoub in anything you do. He's the greatest, and he's a mensch, and he's good. Yeah, make sure they're mensch, make sure they're grown ups and can work and play with others.

 But everything just came together. The timing was right, and the rest of the supporting cast. We got very lucky. And it's not like I suddenly at the age of, I was in my mid forties when Monk hit, I would have been writing for 20 years. It's not like I suddenly became talented that month. The script for Monk wasn't my breakthrough, brilliant, you know, script, just, everything else fell into place. I got very lucky. My advice to young writers is to be as lucky as you could possibly be. That's my advice.

Lorien: Solid advice. 

Yeah, solid advice. Go out and do that. But it was luck after 20 years, you know? And that's where we were. 

So you wrote the spec script. Did you write a pitch? Like how... 

Andy Breckman: Oh no, there was no spec script. It was, well, you wrote the pitch. I remember the moment because you just remember these moments, 'cause it's literally a once in a lifetime moment. Yeah. I was out to lunch with a producer, David Hoberman, who I had written some failed movie scripts for. That was our relationship. He had worked at Disney, I think probably before your time there. And he actually ran Hollywood studios back in the day. So I knew him. I had written movies that tanked. I probably lost 40 million for that company and but he took me out to lunch. We were in New York. We were at the four seasons where he was staying and I was there to pitch in movie ideas. I had a few movie ideas. And we went up to lunch and I pitched him these movie ideas, and he didn't respond to any of them, I do remember, and then after the movie ideas kind of fizzled, he said this to me, because he had left Disney and a part of his deal was when he left was to develop television as well as features for Disney.

He still had an umbrella deal at Disney, a first look deal. And Disney was, at the time, was ABC, owned ABC. So anyway, He was also searching around for TV shows. I think the James Brooks movie As Good As It Gets was in the theater. Remember with Jack Nicholson? 

Lorien: I remember that, yes.

Andy Breckman: Where Jack Nicholson had OCD. So that was a big hit at the time, at that moment. And David Hoberman said, "you think we could do a TV series about a cop with OCD?" That's what he said to me. And I have to give him credit because He's still alive. As soon as he's dead, I'd like to come back and do your show and... 

Lorien: Take all the credit? 

Andy Breckman: Take all the credit. 

Lorien: And then we'll scrub episode 210. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah. 

Lorien: And just replace it. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, there'll be other reasons for you to scrub episode 210. But he said you think we do a show? And I immediately I knew it was right in my wheelhouse because I grew up going, I grew up studying comedy, but also reading John Dixon Carr and Agatha Christie.

And of course Sherlock Holmes and so it was a perfect way to marry these two passions of mine. And I knew immediately how I would do it. And. I would base it all on Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes. 

Lorien: Yes, I did notice the dog's name. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, it's Watson. Well, it also is my dog's name, but you're right, it is Watson, it is from Watson. And Sherlock Holmes's chronicles. That was the birth of Monk, but it was not a spec spin. ABC, we pitched it to ABC. And they bought it. So I wrote it for them. We tried to cast it. We had dozens and dozens of actors come in at ABC. But nobody could nail it and they gave up on it. They actually put it in the drawer. It was gone for a year. 

Lorien: Turnaround. 

Andy Breckman: Well, was it? Well, in the movies, you often hear about movies coming back to life and movies going into turnaround. But in television, it's very unusual. A pilot script in television that is dead on the vine is dead on the vine, usually forever. And if you want to hear the story, it's kind of an interesting story. So a year goes by, it's gone. Monk is gone. I've moved on. I was writing movie scripts back to the movies. I completely forgot about Monk. And then I get a call. From Mr. Hoberman from David Hoberman. I swear it was over a year later. This is the one good phone call a year that like we to refer back to. And David Hoberman says, you're not going to believe this. He said there was an executive at ABC named Jackie to credit who I had never met. She was not at any of the pitch meeting. She was not in the room. I didn't know her, but she apparently liked the script. She was a creative executive at ABC. And so a year goes by and this woman, God bless her, I should have a statue of her made, okay, so God bless, she gets a job at a new fledgling network, USA, you know, Universal, USA, she gets a job there, she goes there, the boss there, and her new boss at Universal Says, "welcome to Universal. What kind of shows, Jackie, do you think we should be developing?" And Jackie takes out the Monk script out of her, literally, she took, literally, physically took the Monk script with her, in her little briefcase, and said, "this is the kind of show I think we could be doing." And the guys at USA, Jeff Wachtel, who's one of the heroes of my life, he read the script and said, well, let's not do a script like this. Let's do this script. 

So a year later, Monk came back to life. It was a joint project. Disney still to this day owns a small slice of Monk. They worked it out between Disney and Universal and ABC. I don't know. For a minute, Monk was, it was very unusual at the time. Monk was airing on USA, the cable network, and on ABC, on the broadcast network. Because they co owned it. So, that was the story of Monk. I don't know if that's. 

Lorien: That's amazing. It gives me chills. I have maybe five scripts, tv script pilots that are sitting around and like, oh my god, maybe someone will read one of those. 

Andy Breckman: Well, now you have the story. I don't know if I did you a favor or not by telling you the story.

I'll tell you something. If you actually, it actually becomes even more interesting in a way. This is maybe your listeners will appreciate this. So Monk was a, an hour long. You know, a TV pilot. So what is that? 40, 43, 44 pages. And in the course of writing that I had written a couple of set pieces that I had to cut to get it down to 44 pages. There was even another suspect in the original pilot that Monk considered was guilty, and then, but there was no room for it. So, so in order to get down to 44 pages, I cut a few, I cut a character, I cut a couple of chase scenes, and we got it down to 44 pages. 

Then, here's what happened. We're casting it at USA, Tony Shalhoub expresses interest in the character, Which is a real get because he was an actor's actor, you know, everybody's very excited. But Tony Shalhoub was committed to a pilot at CBS at the time. They were, it was on the bubble or it was that period where they're, they get to decide to pick it up or not, but you're still committed to the project. So Tony Shalhoub technically was not available to make our pilot. He had made this other medical center kind of ensemble pilot that everyone assed was going to be, was going to die on the vine but it hadn't officially been canceled yet. So he was not available to do our pilot, but then USA had this idea. Jeff Wachtel had this idea. It was pretty cheap. Brilliant. Jeff Wachtel said this. "Hey, if we make Monk a movie. Instead of just a pilot, if we make, instead of it being an hour, if we make it 90 minutes, we can call it a movie, a TV movie and Tony Shalhoub would be legally able to do it, it would be sort of a backdoor pilot. And if it works, we will just call it a pilot and we'll have our series. And if it doesn't work, we have a little movie that we could show."

So that's what USA did. And so they came and they asked me to do something no writer should ever be asked to do. They asked me to put back all the crap and all the fat and all the scenes that everyone agreed should have been, should be cut that I cut. And they asked me to put it all back to get to 90 minutes of airtime. So the Monk pilot has scenes in it that are frankly, completely unnecessary. And they're just weird tangents and left turns and digressions. And I haven't seen it myself in a while, but I'm sure the mystery has suffered for it. But anyway. That was their business model for the Monk pilot. And by the way, as a little coded to that, that works so well for USA that every other show they picked up going forward began with a 90 minute movie. It was actually a very smart thing for them to do, because if the pilot busted, like a lot of pilots bust, they still have a 90 minute movie they could air on their network. So it was a pretty smart business plan, but it came around because. It came about because of Shalhoub's commitment. 

Lorien: I think this is such a great example of how the creative process is so impacted by the business parts of it, right? We see ourselves as these writers and it's our ideas and but actually we do have to navigate in this very complicated business and you have to do things that maybe you don't necessarily aren't super excited about but you take a risk, like, adding the stuff back in and taking a chance on them.

Andy Breckman: Of course, your reputation is very important. And you want to be known in the business as someone that is a team player. I'm very good at pretending to listen and pretending to take notes. It's one of my strengths. You can ask my wife, I always pretend, she doesn't know, she often, even my own wife doesn't know when I'm not really listening. That's how good I am. 

Lorien: Let me tell you, as a wife, she knows. 

Andy Breckman: She knows, that's true, or she assumes that I'm not. But you don't want to be the guy that, especially when you're starting out, that pushes back and is always kind of difficult, because people remember that. The next writer in the waiting room outside might have a better attitude than you. 

Lorien: Yes, it's a tricky needle to thread, right? Because you want to defend your work and stay true to the truth of it. But also be, well. 

Andy Breckman: When I take notes, I never push back. I take the note. And in the moment, I just take the note. I thank him for the note. I say, "you know, that's something to think about, or let's try that." And then I go home and I kick the wall, you know, and walk around the block, come home and kick the wall again. And It takes me a day to kind of, kind of settle down and calm down. And then by the next day, it's almost like magic. By the next day, not only have I calmed down, many of their notes suddenly seemed to make sense. And I can even admit they've elevated the page, the project. But in the moment I temper myself. I'm very good at that. It's something I had to learn. It's probably, it might be one of the hardest things: how to is how to take criticism and notes from executives. 

Lorien: We have a saying on the show, which is after you get the notes, right? You do what you said, you know, thank you. I'll look into that. And then you get home and you're like, well, F you. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, exactly.

Lorien: And then you're like, Oh no, F me. Oh God, what am I going to do? And then you get, and then you get to, okay, what's next? What am I going to do? You know, we all love to hear the same things over and over again. Right? You're like, Oh my God, I forgot that I needed to have stakes or, you know, sometimes you get notes and you're like, Oh wait, I needed a plot or my character needed narrative drive. Like sometimes stuff falls off our heads and then it's nice to be reminded. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah. A lot of executives like plots. Yeah. 

Lorien: I know. 

Andy Breckman: That's a good note. 

Lorien: If only I could just write like, James Joyce, TV shows like James Joyce, I'd be like, golden. 

Andy Breckman: Have you ever heard this? It's very interesting you said that. Somebody once said this to me, that Hollywood pictures, studio pictures, are written backwards. Like, studio pictures are written, you know, Meg Ryan is gonna run across town to the airport. That, and you work backwards from that. But indie pictures are written front to back, are written like James Joyce. Stream of consciousness. They know where it begins, they know where the characters are, but they don't know where they're going. And that's always interesting to me. My temperament is to write studio pictures. I like to know where I'm going, I like everything outlined. But that always is interesting.

You know what else somebody once said to me when I was starting out? And tell me if you think this is true. I'd like to hear from Jeff as well. I'm very curious. Somebody once said to me that every writer is writing for five people. Have you ever heard that in your 210 episodes? You never heard that? 

Lorien: No. Tell us. 

Andy Breckman: And I believe, no, I believe that too. Every writer, that's what's driving them. Talk to your therapist about this. You know, the girl that wouldn't go to the prom with you in ninth grade, or the English teacher that gave you a c plus, or the actor you met that dismissed your script when you were just starting out. You're writing to impress five people, and I have my five people. I think it's an interesting sort of, you know, you kind of think that for writers to just sort of stop and think about why they're doing it. 

Lorien: Are they like five archetypes, or is it just everyone has...? 

Andy Breckman: No, like for a lot of people it's the father that didn't believe in them or something. I just, I mean, it just is interesting that, you know, why this career? Why this? Because it's so hard and there's no security. This is not a tenured position kids. You're working without a net. And why are you here? Something's driving me and I've often thought about what it is. There are five people in my past that I think I've been writing to. I'm not in touch with them anymore. They don't know I exist. I'm not on their radar, but they're sort of in my inner radar. 

Lorien: Are any of those five people for you, Andy, a version of yourself when you were younger?

Andy Breckman: Oh, absolutely. I'm always very grateful to myself. You know, Steve Martin, when he wrote his memoirs, I think early in his memoirs, he thanked, he stopped and thanked his 14 year old self for just having the discipline to stay in his room and practice magic seven hours a day.

And probably great musicians, thank themselves, thank their 14 year old version of themselves. And I thank my 14 year old self, you know, did me a great service. I read mysteries voraciously. I deconstructed every comedy I saw. Other kids were having a life. I do have a memory of sitting in my room and reading Sherlock Holmes, and outside hearing other kids riding their bikes and playing and laughing. So other kids were having a life. And I was I was absorbing these stories. So, I'm very grateful to that kid. He stood me in good stead. 

Lorien: Jeff, what do you think? You think we're ready for five writers? 

Jeff: And I'm thinking about this a lot. I can't help. I think both of the shadows of my parents are looming very large in my brain. There's also very specifically when I was in middle school, I was in this kind of, this says a lot about me. If there was ever like a more After school activity for writers. It was called Power of the Pen, where like Dorky seventh graders who love telling stories could go to competitions and write fiction based on a prompt. And I love my team and I love my power of the pen coach, but I didn't get to go to States because at regionals someone else on my team got selected. And I think that judge, whoever didn't see my work as valid enough to go to States, I couldn't help, but after I sold my first script and I was in deadline for the first time thinking: if I could send this link to her. 

Andy Breckman: That's so pretty. Everybody has, every writer I think has a story like that where they were aced out. That's pretty cool. I remember in first grade, I remember the name, Jack Rananowski. In first grade, how old are you in first grade? Nine years old? In first grade Six! Six, yeah! In first grade, Jack Rananowski was voted by the class, Class Clown. You I that which is for some reason something I really coveted and I remember thinking damn someday I'll show you! 

Lorien: Look you ended up writing on SNL, you have your own toy company! 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, Jack Rananowski, yeah!

Lorien: I feel like it's a "how you like me now" revenge fantasy moment. 

Andy Breckman: Well every life really is, in part at least 

Jeff: I've met Jack, and I don't even think he's nearly as funny as you are, Andy, so I'll go ahead and say it. You're much funnier than Jack. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, that means the world to me. 

Lorien: We would never have him on the show. 

Andy Breckman: I will wait till you get to episode 530. You'll be down to Jack Rananowski, believe me. If you're down to me, he's not much further, believe me. 

Lorien: Oh, stop! 

Andy Breckman: I'm surprised he's not on next week. We could promo him now. Now what have you never gotten to, 210 episodes? You don't want to hear about a Monk movie. 

Lorien: I do actually.

Andy Breckman: But it's such a unicorn. It's such an outlier, my situation. It's it doesn't apply to your listeners. 

Lorien: Yes, it does. Because here's why it gives us hope that we have that one phone call that year. So what was the phone call when they were like, we want to make Monk into a movie? 

Andy Breckman: Well, Monk, I can't say I planned this myself, but monk has been very healthy in syndication around the world. It travels very well. The stories are very simple. The stories are not topical, which was a decision I made. The stories are family friendly, another decision I made. Monk was maybe the only character on TV at the time that wasn't trying to get laid. 

Lorien: The opposite in fact. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, he was avoiding it and the humor is very physical and it travels well. Monk travels well, it's in 50 countries, it's around the world and so it's always been a moneymaker for Universal, for NBC Universal. So, during Covid, Tony Shalhoub and I and the cast, supporting cast, a wonderful cast, did a short 3 minutes, sort of a PSA about safety procedures during Covid.

And Monk was in his apartment and we wrote some jokes and that was very popular. A little short little thing. I guess everything during Covid was very popular because everyone was inside surfing the internet. But anyway, it did very well. And that was enough. I think when Peacock was looking for new product, we were on their radar. So that Covid 4 minute film, I think moved the needle. 

Lorien: I mean, if anybody was going to talk about Covid, there's Monk. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah. 

Lorien: Right. And you have that as a thread in the movie. And I thought it was really well done. Like it's not too much, but there are some really fun moments, like with the wipes where she's handing out the wipes and I know everyone was doing that. 

Andy Breckman: The idea was we've all become Monk in the last few years.

Lorien: What I really like about that, like, you got together, you had fun, you met, well, you know, you made something that had meaning and the same way that, How Ted Lasso started, right? It was just the character, and people were telling short stories and then it became something else because people loved it so much, which is I think really important to remember that when we love our characters, other people are more inclined to love them as well.

And I think this is something a lot of writers struggle with where they write characters they don't like. Because they think it fits some mold or it satisfies something, and you clearly you said you love the characters in this show and that comes through in the writing in your relationship with them.

Andy Breckman: Well, that's a very good point. And I do love these characters. I mean, Monk is, you know, Tony Shalhoub and I share Monk. I feel like Monk is my old, my avatar. But that's very good advice that you have to love your character. Also, Robert, another thing that I always tell writers is it's actually Robert Frost that said "no tears for the writer, no tears for the reader."

If your piece doesn't choke you up, if you don't get teary in the sentimental moments you're writing, the viewer won't either. So just keep poking at those scenes until you yourself are moved and you'll know it when it happens. 

Lorien: And that's what we're talking about. The lava, right? 

Andy Breckman: I'm not sure I understand the lava. 

Lorien: Oh, so Meg has a story. She was working with a writer and they both have children with special needs, and he she was challenging to write more truthfully, and he said what you want me to do is stick my face in lava, like, to really feel that hot breath. She said, no, I want you to put your whole body in lava. Which is like, fully immerse yourself in the truth of those feelings so that you can process it a level and then Put it on the page so that other people feel that as well. And it's about that specificity of it, right? Like in, in the Monk movie, there's so much specific, like the vows, a spoiler alert, if you haven't seen it yet, but when Monk reads the vows it just felt so personal and so specific, right? The poet says, and the words felt really truthful, and their responses to it, and their relationship, right? Monk and Molly. I was crying. Right. Because it just felt real to me and I know that comes from somewhere from you. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, I was moved also when I was writing that scene. I was channeling, if you want to know, it's channeling Richard Curtis. So, I'll tell you, you can point to any moment in anything that I've written, I'll tell you where I stole it from, if you're interested. 

Lorien: Okay, what is the favorite thing you wrote for SNL? 

Andy Breckman: Well, oh, okay, I was on SNL for a number of years, I was there full time for two or three years, and then, I went back as a guest writer for about eight years.

My favorite thing at SNL... well it's so funny, okay, yeah, there were some sketches that people remember. I wrote a sketch for Eddie Murphy where he went around as a white guy, in white face. 

Lorien: Oh, I remember those, white people give you things for free. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, that was me, and I actually, I directed that too, and I don't know if that's my favorite, but that's one that people remember. Eddie Murphy was at the time, the biggest movie star in the world. And I was directing, I was 13 years old or whatever. I was a director. And, I was saying things on the set, like, " and action! If that's okay with Eddie." That's how I called that. I tried to take that idea, a black guy going around as a white, in makeup as a white guy, and I tried to sell it. I did sell it. Oh, I sold it to Disney as a feature because Disney and I were hoping that Eddie Murphy would have had such a great time doing that sketch. He would do the feature. That was the hope, I think. And, but he didn't do the feature. The feature. They made the feature it, but it was a, was somebody else?

Lorien: Clearly not as good, right? 

Andy Breckman: Oh, it was. It was. It might be the only movie in the Disney catalog. It was called. True Identity. I called it black and white, but it was called True Identity. And I believe it was the only movie in the Disney catalog that they never released on DVD. Oh no. Song of the South. 

Lorien: Yeah, I was going to say, Song of the South. 

Andy Breckman: There are two movies, two movies never released on DVD. 

Lorien: Nice. I mean. 

Andy Breckman: Thank you. Thank you very much. 

Lorien: Congratulations. 

Andy Breckman: Thank you. Thank you. That means the world to me.

Lorien: Okay, but what's your favorite one? 

Andy Breckman: Well, let me see. Oh, you're so sweet. I did one with Chris Farley where he was, people remember this, he was on a Japanese game show with oh my god, who was the host? It was Austin Powers. I'm blanking on his name. 

Jeff: Oh, Mike Myers.

Andy Breckman: Yeah, Mike Myers was the host. Everyone was speaking Japanese except for him. I don't know how he found himself on that game show. But that was one that worked as well as I had hoped it would work. And Saturday Night Live, you hear people talk about how exciting it is. I'm sure you've had guests on the actual live show. You're working without a net, it's going out live for better or worse, and it really is thrilling. It's like a football game going out, being broadcast live. 

Lorien: Okay, what about Eddie Murphy as James Brown in the hot tub?

Andy Breckman: I think I was there for that. 

Lorien: Okay. 

Andy Breckman: That, I think I was there for that. I can't take credit for it. I knew it was funny. Did that count as something? 

Lorien: Yes. Yes. These are my like core SNL moments. It's most around Eddie Murphy. So I love. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, okay. Well, he was, he's credited. 

Lorien: Buckwheat and Gumby, like all of those.

Andy Breckman: He's credited with saving the show, keeping the show alive. When it was in trouble.

Meg-- 

Lorien: Sorry, Jeff. 

Jeff: I'm honored. You can call me Meg LeFauve. She's having a good year. Andy, it's funny as we're talking about like core comedy memories, both Sergeant, I'm the exact age that Sergeant Bilko and Rat Race are a very important part of kind of my foundational cork.

I will tell you specifically, I saw Rat Race in the theaters and the scene with the, I Love Lucy convention. And there's like a cow that smacks on the windshield. I think I was like 12 or 13, but I did truly fall. I fell out of the chair I was sitting in and I was kind of only described as like seizing with laughter on the ground. There's also, this is just me waxing poetic about this movie I love, but that 'you should have bought a squirrel' truck down the, you talk like some of these set pieces are just so absurd. Can you talk a little bit about how it's a big ensemble comedy? 

Andy Breckman: Well, I will say this, the lesson I learned from Rat Raid you know, I had five or six features made, including Sergeant Bilko. But the lesson I've learned through those years is when you're writing a comedy, your comedy is as only as funny as your director. It can't be funnier than your director. It can't be. And all the comedies I wrote, they're exactly as funny as the directors were. For most of my career, that meant they didn't work at all. I was saddled with directors that weren't very inspired. But for Rat Race, the director was Jerry Zucker of Airplane Renown fame, who's become a good friend. And Rat Race is as funny as Jerry Zucker. And Writing Rat Race, he should have co credit on it.

He's a mensch, didn't arbitrate for co credit, but writing Rat Race with Jerry Zucker was one of the high points of my life. And we would laugh and we would come up with set pieces like that, and then we would bring in all the assistants and the receptionists from the floor, and we try it out on them, and you know, and a lot of it was very physical, we were actually building with Legos and the Tinker Toys, things on the table just to illustrate how this stuff would work, and that was a great experience, but it was as funny as Jerry Zucker, that's as funny, that's how funny that was.

Lorien: So that is a great way to look at comedy in the movies. What is your philosophy around comedy and TV? 

Andy Breckman: It's as funny as the showrunner. 

Right. 

TV is as funny as the showrunner. Not any less funny, not any more funny. When you see, when you're a fan of The Office, you're getting to know Greg Daniels. When you're a fan of Seinfeld, the first five or six seasons, that's Larry David. It's as funny as Larry David. So that's how you can watch TV. 

Lorien: I agree. That is such a good distinction to make and remind people who misunderstand what directing episodic TV is. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, well, you need a good director, of course, but the showrunner is the beating heart of a TV series. And it's why writers, you know, it's one reason writers are attracted to television. 

Jeff: You know, it's, we do have a lot of feature comedy writers who listen to the show. And I think it's great advice to recognize that the director of a comedy feature is such an important part of it being funny, but it has to be funny on the page as well, if it's going to get attention.

So I guess, just to follow up, like what advice would you give to our writers who don't have an interest in directing, but want to cut through the noise in terms of having like a voicey feature spec that does read funny on the page? 

Andy Breckman: What advice? Be funny. 

Jeff: I know it is sometimes just "be funny." 

Lorien: Be lucky. 

Andy Breckman: Well, I'll tell you what I do. I can write although I usually have sole credit, it's very hard for me to write alone, especially to break stories alone and it was actually a great relief, this is a little digression, it was a great relief to learn that Robert Towne had a secret partner when he wrote Chinatown and all his movies because I've been writing mysteries of my whole life and I can't break them alone. I have to bounce them off. I have a younger brother who's very talented and I, and I, I bounced everything off of him, but I couldn't, but I always couldn't believe, I couldn't believe that Robert Towne Didn't have a partner. Agatha Christie had an assistant that she bounced stuff off of and worked up to. Everybody did. But Chinatown is such a perfectly constructed mystery. It drove me crazy. And then I read that that book about Chinatown that came out three years ago. What was that called? Oh, you can look it up, but it revealed that Robert Towne had an uncredited writing partner, which I'd love to read because it meant he, you know, he wasn't Superman either.

So, anyway, to get back to Jeff's question, what I always do is I bounce stuff off of friends, or in my case, my brother, or colleagues. And just me saying the lines out loud to someone, even if it's my kids, so even if they don't respond one way or the other, I just know by saying, by pitching to them and hearing myself talk, I just know if it's working or not. And if they laugh. And I can always smell if it's a genuine laugh. I can, or you can always tell a pity laugh. I've heard a lot of pity laughs since last hour, so I know it pretty well. Exactly. 

But you can always tell when you really make someone laugh.

Laughter, of course, is involuntary. You know, even if someone doesn't want to laugh. My other advice is what I tell my son, who wants to start writing and directing. And I tell him to perform is to get on stage and join an improv group or do stand up. You just have to log some hours of performing comedy.

It's so helpful. Your favorite writers, if you dig back, your favorite comedy writers all did some performing and, you know, we're talking about Jerry Zucker is an example. And they started out doing Kentucky Fried Theater live in L. A. That was there. Performing is invaluable because then you get you begin to develop a 6th sense about what works and what doesn't, and you'll carry that audience, even if you're no longer performing, you'll carry that audience with you, even if you're not even aware of it. So that's some advice. If you're just starting out, if you can do some comedy performing, then you'll develop an ear and you'll find your own voice as well. 

Lorien: My husband and I were such great fans of Monk.

Andy Breckman: So I remember, I do remember, they used to send me lists of everyone who watched you were on the list. I remember that. 

Lorien: Yeah. 

Andy Breckman: I don't remember your husband. Do you have the same last name of your husband? 

Lorien: Yes. Yeah. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, that's funny. I didn't see his name! 

Lorien: I don't know if it was before DVRs or not. My husband used to record everything on videotape so we can watch it. So he would have the lineup of the different shows would be like, it would be Monk Night and, you know, we would. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, that's the greatest. Our first season went out to Emmy voters on videotape, on VHS. And then season two I think we graduated to digital. 

Lorien: Yes, it's all digital now. All the screeners that come out. 

Andy Breckman: Now you don't even get DVDs anymore. 

Lorien: I know. I know. I feel cheated. Anyway, so, is there any other advice you have for our listeners or us? One good phone call?

Andy Breckman: Yeah, wait for that one phone call. Let's just review. Maybe it's a good time to review before we dismiss the class. You got one phone call a year. Okay. Right. So you're going to get a lot of disappointing phone calls. I used to call my cell phone the disappointment machine. "Honey, I can't find the disappointment machine!" That's what I used to call it. .

Lorien: That's email now. 

Jeff: It's my inbox. Yeah. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, it is. Well, you know, that's your disappointment machine. The email. No. So yeah, all you need is one good phone call a year. 

Lorien: Be lucky, right? 

Andy Breckman: Be as lucky as you can possibly be. Don't skimp on the luck. And you know, like you were saying about starting a script, there's a great old saying, "well begun is half done." I always tell kids to work, to really focus on the first three pages. I'm sure you've heard this ad nauseum, but I will spend weeks making sure I've nailed the first two or three pages. Then I guess if I could end with this, just: if you do succeed and you do have a show going, hire me. You can get my number through, through this podcast. 

Lorien: I love that. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, that's where I want to end this. Please. 

Lorien: Yes, well. 

Andy Breckman: By all that's holy, hire me. 

Lorien: We always end with three questions. We ask every guest. 

Andy Breckman: Oh, for the Lord. Oh, yeah, sure. 

Lorien: Okay, so the first question is. 

Andy Breckman: Wait, so podcast. can anticipate these questions.

Lorien: Yes. 

Andy Breckman: Correct. So I'm handicapped. I'm hearing them for the first time. 

Lorien: This is the gotcha part of the show. 

Andy Breckman: It is. Okay. But just keep in mind that other guests had weeks to think about their answer. Okay. Just keep that in mind. Here we go. 

Lorien: Only if they listen to the show. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah. I'm assuming that they do. I don't listen to podcasts.

Lorien: Okay. Here's the question. What brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing?

Andy Breckman: See, I need four weeks to think of what brings me the most joy. When I write for a film and it's shown in theaters and Jeff is in the theater and he's 12 years old and he's falling out of his seat and the guy behind him is peeing his pants. It was very important to me when I write for TV, I always beg the studio to have a screening in a theater, and we did that with the Monk movie for Peacock, because I long to hear 300 people responding to it. So that brings me the most joy. Is that a good answer? 

Lorien: That's a brilliant, beautiful answer. 

Jonathan: I have come on camera to ask you an incredibly important question.

Andy Breckman: Dear God, I've never been more frightened in my life. 

Jonathan: What pisses you off about writing? 

Andy Breckman: Nobody takes rejection well. You know, I've worked on spec scripts. Everybody listening, everybody here probably has worked on spec scripts and has worked six or seven months on a spec script and then gotten notes, or gotten responses, or in many cases, no responses. You're ghosted. By the way these days in Hollywood, ghosting is a response. That's, I mean, that's how they pass these days. Your phone doesn't ring, but I would say the most frustrating thing is working six or seven months and then the first response from the first reader is not what you had hoped for because you only get one life and that's a big chunk of your life. And that stings, but then you remind yourself that's the business you have chosen, like they said in The Godfather, that's just life and that's part of the game. 

Jeff: That's a great answer. 

Andy Breckman: Good answer. 

Jonathan: That is. 

Andy Breckman: Good answer. 

Lorien: Like, like Family Feud? Good answer. 

Andy Breckman: Yeah, I would, yeah. Well, why don't you save your applause till the end, till the third, till after the third. 

Jeff: Andy, the last question we ask is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger self what advice would you give to that, Andy? 

Andy Breckman: Oh my gosh, that's a great, that's a great question too. I guess I would assure my younger self that in your 20s, and maybe in most of your 20s, but then into your 30s your skin will eventually clear up.

Jeff: Don't you think that was such an important part of you becoming a comedian though? 

Andy Breckman: Oh my gosh, I would say, I will say this, the acne I had as a kid, In hindsight, only in hindsight, was very instrumental for me forming, becoming who I am. Because it made me very shy. It made me very, you know, turn inward. I was very shy around young girls. Oh my God, my acne was like, just like everything in your life. At the time, it was agony and only in hindsight, God bless hindsight, you realize it was maybe a blessing. 

Lorien: Super flaw, super power. I have this theory. 

Andy Breckman: Super flaw, super power. I love that.

Lorien: That I'm not interested in a character's flaw, I'm interested in what they're really good at, and then it's also the thing that they, their struggle. So Monk illustrates that perfectly. 

Andy Breckman: Exactly. No, that's how I, that's exactly the formula we use when I'm writing Monk. Exactly right. 

Lorien: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on our show.

Andy Breckman: No, you guys were great. It was this was, you made this very easy and a lot of fun. 

Lorien: Is there anything that you want to say that we, that you didn't get a chance to talk about, brag about? 

Andy Breckman: No. I'd like to shout out... no, I don't even want to shout out. I'll forget someone. I have seven grandkids. I'm like, I'm going to forget one of them. But thank you very much. 

Jeff: Thanks so much to Andy for joining us on the show today. His movie, Mr. Monk's Last Case, a Monk movie is nominated for outstanding television feature at the Emmys this year. So best of luck to Andy. 

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.