211 | Sundance Favorite GHOSTLIGHT's Kelly O'Sullivan: Indie Filmmaking Beyond LA/NY

How does a Chicago-based Indie film team break into Sundance, sell their movie at the fest, debut with a 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, and make a Box Office Splash? They make a really, really great movie. Writer/director Kelly O'Sullivan knows a thing or two about Indie Filmmaking; her debut “Saint Frances” won SXSW in 2019. Today she discusses how she writes, casts, and directs outside of the traditional indie ecosystem, and how you can, too.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna and today I'll be talking with writer director Kelly O'Sullivan. Kelly wrote and co-directed Ghostlight, which premiered at Sundance where it sold to IFC. The film premiered to a 100 percent rating on Rotten Tomatoes when it hit theaters in June. Congratulations.

Kelly: Thank you.

Lorien: Jeff, I know you're a big fan of Kelly's work.

Jeff: I am. I should share that Kelly and I share a producer. I was introduced to your work by Ian Kaiser and I went to a screening of your first movie, St. Francis, and was just bowled over. So I was really excited to see Ghostlight when it came out and it totally held up to the first. Congratulations on your second feature. 

Kelly: Thank you so much.

Jeff: Your first movie, St. Francis, which you also star in, won the Audience Award at South by Southwest when it premiered in 2019 and was hailed by Rolling Stone as one of the best and gutsiest movies of that year.

Kelly: Oh boy.

Lorien: Kelly's work is deeply personal and grassroots building upon her circle of Chicago based creatives in a fiercely independent film network. So in addition to her work, we'll be chatting with Kelly about what it really means to produce and sell an indie film, especially outside of LA and New York. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the show.

Kelly: Hello. Thank you so much for having me and I know nothing. So I'm going to be a terrible guest on this podcast. I just want to say I. 

Lorien: Great. I don't either. 

Kelly: Okay, good. 

Lorien: There we go. No one knows anything.

Kelly: Yeah, it's pretty alarming. The older you get and you think, Oh no, there's no adults in the room. It's just us.

Lorien: That might be a side effect that you're recently a mother.

Kelly: Yeah. Our son Milo is almost eight months old and he's still not sleeping. And it's just brutal. I don't know if you've talked to any recent parents about writing, but I'm sure we can get into it, but it's really affecting productivity in a major way.

Lorien: Well, after I had my daughter and I went back to work, I had a whole Flowers for Algernon thing going on where I'd think, I used to know how to deal with that situation. And if the information is right there, but yeah, it no longer exists. And it wasn't that the baby was taking up space in my head. It was like that space in my head. 

Kelly: Yeah. Without sleeping, it's funny how quickly memory leaves. My word recall is really terrible. I think I've just used the word awesome now to describe anything. I'll say, this girl is awesome or amazing. Which, as you know, is great for a writer. 

Lorien:  It's a real thing and should be talked about. I think, maybe leave text…No. Voice to message, voice memos for yourself, right? Just ramble and see what comes out.

Kelly: That's right. I have a feeling it's going to be a lot of, Why did you choose this? It's a very bizarre thing. I don't know if you felt this way, but I love him. All the cliches are true. I love him more than anything. And I think how does anybody do this? It makes no, and, you know, child care in this country, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Lorien: Yeah. The mental load of it, of being physically taking care of this other creature and being responsible is really intense.

Kelly: Yeah. And you just can't do anything. You turn your head for one second and they've somehow tumbled and hit every sharp corner in a six foot vicinity. It's wild.

Lorien: At the end of the day, if your baby is still around, I feel like you're successful.

Kelly: Yeah, that's what I keep telling myself. He's alive, he's loved, he's fed, that's all we can do.

Lorien: And I feel like that correlates a bit to our work as writers and filmmakers, right? I created something, maybe I wasn't finished with it, maybe it isn't perfect, but you're welcome, world.

Kelly: Yeah, the sense of surrender and sort of abandonment that has to eventually come with it where you think, oh, this is not going to look in any way like what I thought it was going to look or maybe wanted it to look in the beginning, but ultimately okay, it is something and then the ability to put it out in the world and say well, let's see what happens to it.

Lorien: I was very attached to my daughter while I was pregnant in the way that I am very attached to my projects while I'm writing them. But when she was born, they held her up to me and I had this feeling, the words articulate in my head, I don't know who that is.

Kelly: Yes.

Lorien: I don't recognize her.

Kelly: Absolutely.

Lorien: It was stunning how long it took me to connect to her. Right. I think it was two days. I don't know how long, but my sister came and she said, you have to connect to that baby. I'm like, I don't recognize. Yeah, but it was, you know, all the birth and the trauma of all that. But yeah. I feel like that happens too with, and there's a lot of shame around that with motherhood, that you don't have that moment where they put the baby in your arms and you think, Oh, I'm in love.

Kelly: Well, I didn't have that either. I mean, just to say, and to hopefully normalize that more is, I also had a very traumatic birth, ended up having an emergency C Section, felt like it was something that sort of happened to me rather than something that I was at all an active participant in and I remember like when I was going through the C Section there's a little window in the curtain that they pull the baby out and you can see the baby through the window and I thought, Ah, because it felt like a magic trick because I didn't go through any pushing and all of a sudden I couldn't feel anything and the baby just appeared I was like wait was I in there? Was I pregnant? Is this the baby that was in my stomach? Yeah. It was very disorienting. And then I had to go back into the hospital a couple of days later because I had postpartum preeclampsia. Yeah, really fun. It was great. Highly recommend. And I spent two nights away from him when he was a newborn. And I remember being in the hospital thinking, Was that all a dream? Was my pregnancy a dream? Do I have a baby at home? It can be very disorienting. Yeah. And I found nothing about it to be magical. I'm finding the magic now as he gains a personality and as we interact and as I learn who he is. But in the beginning, I think we've been sold there's a lot of false advertising when it comes to motherhood, especially early motherhood.

Lorien: Yes, so much, right? And I did go through the whole pushing, you know, all that, and I still, felt, I don't know who that is, and I feel similar to writing and creativity, there's this expectation that you're supposed to just write it, and everyone will love it, and it will be perfect and genius, where It's not. It becomes something else, right, as I got to figure out who she was and connect to oh, right, she kicked a lot when she was in my uterus and she's kicking a lot now. Oh, I'm starting to get to know her again. But there was that just terror of what even is this? And I feel like I have that with whatever I write too, you know, yeah. This is not what I meant to do, and this is not coming out the right way, and that, that need. But it's not what I meant, right, that controls what we were talking about. I'm a participant, it feels like I'm not actually in control.

Kelly: I know, yeah. It's terrifying as a writer. And I think it's so connected to the idea of, What it should be with major quotes around the word should and I think there's this idea I had this idea of a writer there's a room in the attic and i'm dressed like louisa may alcott and I go up there with my cup of tea and The words just come and the ideas are flowing. 

Lorien: Your old fashioned typewriter. 

Kelly: Yeah, exactly. Or you're like, the ink. Dipping the ink in the pen. A hundred percent. And I'm like, rearranging pages like Saoirse Ronan on, you know, in Greta Gerwig's Little Women and it's actually, the reality of it I think is very similar to parenting that it's much more boring and tedious. For me, not always, but there's a real requirement of just, you just have to put your head down and do it. And it doesn't feel very mystical to me. I mean, there are moments that it does, just like in parenting, there are moments that feel really magical, but for the most part, it's like, it can be a daily grind.

Lorien: Yes, I would like to get actually the real book, The Craft of Parenthood, right? We have all these screenwriting books, right? And they all are, you know, similar. And I know, I would really like to have some kind of Hero's Journey, Save the Cat. That really actually gives me something to fall back on that doesn't require me to jump into my own lava on the show. We talk about lava in terms of reconnecting to that emotional core of what it is you're actually writing about every single interaction I have with my 12 year old. Yeah, well, I feel like talking to her sometimes, arguing with her, is like a parrot fighting with itself in the mirror, because she's so similar to me, and it's I feel that way with my characters too sometimes, when like we're on the same line, like it gets too similar to my personal stuff, rather than her. Rather than a jump behind or next to.

Kelly: I think that's so true. I mean, I have a friend who says that parenting is the most triggered she's ever been. She's the most triggering thing. Because again, you're like watching somebody who is their own person, but they might have aspects of your personality. And they're making you sort of look at it and address it. And then you feel things sort of bubble up in yourself. That you're like, Oh my God, where did that thing come from? And very similarly with writing, I feel like sometimes it just hits a nerve in a way that you're like, I thought everything was fine. Why am I crying at this two syllable word I just put down?

Lorien: And when, as she gets old, as she got older, like when she was five and I was watching her and I started to remember things that I went through when I was five. And It becomes very emotional, like the specifics of how I was parented, how I'm parenting her, but her reactions, but also just as she grows up, all those moments and, you know, walking beside her, it's I can't live it. I can't control her reactions to things. And I can't. help her fix things, right? She's going into seventh grade, right? Oh, it'll be fun, right? I hope It's better than 99 percent of people's experiences in seventh grade. So far, she's got a great group of friends, right? But also with my characters, if I'm writing about something that's not like capital T truth. Something like for an OWA or can you make this work? I feel like I'm trying to control someone else's life, right? I'm making the choices for them rather than watching my 12 year old go off to seventh grade and what is she going to do? And how do I help her move through it? And I try to work with my characters in the same way. Go make your choices, go make mistakes, and I will walk you through. Next to you. Yeah, I think then I need you to get to this ending.

Kelly: For sure. I think that's why I have a real hard time with outlines. I've just discovered that for me I have to be super loose because then like you're saying I'm trying to push them towards the ending that I want for them or that I've pre imagined rather than actually going on the journey with them and gosh this sounds so hippy dippy but like listening to them in the same way that you have to listen as a parent where it's like you can't just you know, only pick up what's already in your head for what you want for them. You have to actually be like, what are they saying? And do I have the courage to go down this road that I didn't think we were going to go down?

Lorien: At the same time, you also want to be writing into the wish fulfillment. What would I do in this? Well, I do, right? If I were in this situation, what do I wish I could have done?

Kelly: Yeah, for sure. And so it's like you're giving them a buffet. What about this? And then sometimes they just run away and slam the door.

Lorien: I'm very hippy dippy when I write. I do a lot of visualizations and lately I've been just starting to write into act two. Not start because act one I love act one. So that's so delicious, right? I've just been like, okay, what's their plan? What do they want? And then just dive in. So that I can actually, because I spend time in act one trying to craft them too much. Like setting up, following the rules. So if I just go into act two, I'll be like, all right, I'm just going to watch and see what you do.

Kelly: That's nice. Cause act two is so scary. Act two is the roughest. Act two is middle school. Elementary school is so fun. And you meet your friends the way you meet your character. And you're just like, Oh, this is the way it's going to be. And then you start getting acne on page 35 or whatever. And you're like, oh no, and the friends that you've loved before turn against you and it's a very confusing space and time. Yeah, I'm sort of stuck in the middle of act two right now and Probably wouldn't finish it unless I were getting paid to finish it.

Lorien: We just went on an amazing tangent, but I do want to hear about your week. And so my week Has been very emotional. Watching your movie, which I saw through the whole thing, which I was not expecting. And, you know, I come from the theater, and I have been doing this thing always right. What the hell am I doing? What's my process? What, you know, I got a big pass this week that I was really sad about. So it always drives me into what am I doing? Is this worth it? What else could I do? Yes. And it's well this is what I wanna be doing. And then being brave enough to be like, well this is what I want to be doing. This is what I'm going to be doing. Which is very hard. But a couple weeks ago I had a play read by actors and we're gonna do a staged reading of it in a couple of weeks to hopefully get some financing to pay the actors. 'cause yeah. I, that would be amazing. And then I had that pass on, I think Wednesday morning. And then that night I had a feature being read by actors and they did rough blocking. I think it was cold. I don't think they read it in advance. They would just get up and it was a little chaotic because like different actors were getting up to play the same parts. But what was, it was really interesting and it's so clear what's not working for the narrative drive. When you have that Oh, the actors have nothing to chew on here. This is a lovely scene with clever writing and poetic phrases. And isn't that charming? But what's the point and how things are out of order and how on the page it's so fun, right? This sort of narrative, but. When it's on its feet, it was like no. And I had this script read by writers years ago. And when I was getting notes, I think I blacked out. Oh, of course. So attached to the outcome and being judged and worrying about oh, this is a really smart group of writers. They don't like it. I thought it was good, but it's not. But this working with actors, I was able to just be like, well, this is a collaboration like working at Pixar. This is a gift, a tool I get to use. And I didn't go in with the ego of worrying about, is it good enough? It was like, no, I got to figure out what's working or not. But it was still emotional because I forgot how much I love working with actors.

Kelly: Oh, they're the best. They have super powers. I mean, I was, we can talk about it, but actors reading with actors, you're going to have…Everybody obviously is the writer. You're looking at all of the characters in the story. And when you have actors whose only job and their desire is to delve deeply into one role and look at it and then give feedback from that point of concentration, that's the only time you're going to get that. Because for me, at least I'll be a writer, I'll be like, oh yeah. You know, how does everybody's arc feel? And then all of a sudden I'll be like, I forgot this major element. And thank God Dexter The actor was there to tell me like, what happened to this? Oh, actually, because this character and I made up in the previous scene, I don't think I would lash out in the way that I just did it. There's such a phenomenal resource. And because I'm an actor and because I come from theater I always have the first step once I'm done with the draft is to have a state, not a staged reading. We just sit around my table and then slowly we incorporate more and more actors because I think that kind of precise perspective that they bring is so different from the way writers and directors and audiences experience an early draft.

Lorien: Totally. And I realized that I need to incorporate this earlier into my process. You know, when I was in grad school, studying playwriting, I was obsessed with Carole Churchill.

Kelly: Cool.

Lorien: And her work with joint stock, how she would bring plays and then the actors would do improv and like these intense development processes. And I was like, I loved it so much in the theater, but I somehow thought I don't know, I came up with this idea that like TV and film writing is more clinical, right? And I, and then I'm hiding behind that and I am, I'm not being as honest and brave in this feature script as I need to be because it's really personal and it's about grief and loss and mother daughter relationships. And but again, I think it's because I was hiding, but when you have actors up there doing it, you can't hide from that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Lorien: It just made me feel, yeah, I just have to go back to my process around that. Thanks. . 

Kelly: What a cool experience to have to know that's something that was previously in your tool belt Yeah. That now you can bring to this different medium. 

Lorien:  I, you know, so, sorry, go ahead. No,go ahead. Go ahead.

Kelly: Oh, I was just gonna say I never took a screenwriting class and, but I sort of feel like my. writing education was being an actor and being involved in a lot of new plays. And so I was so used to sitting around those tables for new plays that I don't know any other way to work which sometimes I'm like, you guys, do I need to read Save the Cat? I do. I actually don't know a lot of those rules. But I do know what it's like to sit there as an actor and to feel, you know, oh, something's not working here or to, you know, work with a writer who's really listening versus a writer who just wants you to be their little puppet. And I think this sort of feedback that you can get from actors when you're genuinely curious, when you genuinely think of them as collaborators, it's just, you'll never get anywhere else.

Lorien: Yeah, and so I get to do it with a play and I'm doing it with a feature so I feel like it's this fun bridge that I'm playing with, but it's really emotional for some reason. You know, and in your film. I want to hear about your week too but there's a moment in the film where the main character has this sort of Breakdown, breakdown, big emotional moment and everyone, all the other actors come and surround him. I always felt so safe in the theater. I was Marjorie in Extremities.

Kelly: Oh wow. Okay.

Lorien: Yeah. When I was in my twenties. Yeah. Okay. A long time ago, but every intermission I would come off stage and break down.

Kelly: Yeah. That play is rough.

Lorien: Rough. And all the actors would come around me and the crew and hold me in that, you know, and I, because I was just so raw from that performance and just the intensity of it. So just that in your movie and I was like, I felt like. I, again, like what's going on with my week and the connection with film about being in the theater and dealing with grief and loss and not knowing where to put emotions and I was like, the theater, put them in the theater.

Kelly: Yeah. Well, and it's not surprising that you say that, you know, of course it's going to be emotional. I think anytime we write about things that are personal. And then you it's like you have this little baby delicate thing and then you hand it to other people and you're like, do you like this baby delicate thing that I made? And it's very, you know, I heard something on script notes, but I think you guys have talked about it too. And evolutionarily, it's imperative that we're not rejected from the tribe, from, you know, the group. And so of course we black out when we're getting feedback because we don't know that it's not the group saying nevermind, go fight that bear on your own. You're going to have to find all the resources. It feels like we're not. We could be rejected in a primal way. And so I try to always cut myself a break when I'm getting feedback and being like, my nervous system thinks that I'm being kicked out from this culture that I depend on. And then I have to remind myself, I have a friend who always says this is make believe shit. This is once upon a time shit. And so then, once I like, re-shift into being like, Alright, we're just telling stories, then I can quiet my nervous system. But in those feedback circles I tend to say very little, because I find that my prefrontal cortex is completely turned off. And it's just my amygdala firing. And so the more that I can just take notes and listen, and then revisit later, because of course it's emotional. It's deeply personal, and there are people commenting on it.

Lorien: Yeah, and I, but I found getting feedback from the actors and the other writers in the room didn't feel that way.

Kelly:Oh, really?

Lorien: Yeah it felt and maybe it's time, right? It's been a while, and I really went into the readings like, I, I just want to make it better. I'm not worried about proving myself as a writer here. I let go of that, and a job isn't on the line. I always feel like I do better when the motivation is intrinsic rather than extrinsic. But it's just okay, I, like you're saying, the only goal is to make it better, right? Rather than be like, and I hope this gets made and I get a lot of money from it so that I can pay my insurance, blah, blah, blah. Then it's an indie that I'm going to direct with a 16 year old protagonist. So I mean, everybody's going to want to finance that, right? Easy peasy. I mean, right now we're about to go and prep for an indie that I wrote that my partner and I are going to co-direct with a 16 year old lead and let me, and financing has been rough. Yeah. But it's possible. And it's rated R, and there's some intense physical, sexual things going on, and yeah. I mean, who isn't gonna want to give me ten million dollars for that?

Kelly: But I mean, those stories are so important, and I don't know, I think I have to keep telling myself that the money is there. It's just about, it's just about keeping that belief, even though it's been literally years that we've been trying to make this one. But I'm excited to see that. I love young female protagonists. They've been dealt such a shitty hand historically in media that it's, I always get very excited when I'm like,

Lorien: I'll invite you to the premiere. So stay tuned. I've already been in development, you know, working on it for eight years. So we'll see how much more it has to go.

Kelly: Yeah. I'll see you in a year. Yeah. Lucky nine.

Lorien: Yeah. So how was your week? This show, because I love talking to you so much, and I feel really rambly and emotional too today. It's not as organized as it usually is. 

Jeff: It feels very TSL. 

Kelly: Oh, The Screenwriting Life. I was like, what's TSL? Is that like Gen Z vernacular? Thank God I don't have to learn another thing.

Lorien: No, it is Gen X vernacular because that's what I am.

Kelly: Okay, great. Great. I like LucyVC Conversation. It's my favorite.

Lorien: Good. So how was your week?

Kelly: It's been good. So we are heavily in the Pre prep mode, so it's been filled with just meetings and finance worries and casting and trying to get that all in line while trying to figure out how to get our seven month old to sleep, which Before I was a parent, I would become so exhausted and annoyed by sleep conversations with parents, I'd be like, okay, yes, I've heard about it, but for real, that takes up like 60 percent of my brain space just being like, was it the pacifier that got him to sleep for three hours? Was it when we fed him? And so that has been a huge chunk of my week just trying to either catch up on sleep, figure out how to get him to sleep, and then trying to cram in all of these very logistic based meetings while holding a baby on my hip. Yeah. So this is actually really nice. This feels like a break, this conversation.

Lorien: Well, here is my advice about sleep. Eventually, every human being needs to sleep. Yeah. I don't know how and I don't know when, but this person in your care will eventually sleep.

Kelly: That's what I've heard. I, yes, that is what I only say it like that because I keep hearing that it gets better.

Lorien: No, I'm not saying it gets better. I'm saying that eventually that human being will sleep. Yeah. Okay. And I, that's all.

Kelly: Okay, great. 

Lorien: I can't guarantee anything else, but in order to survive, we need sleep.

Kelly: Yeah, that's like the financing is coming. I'll hold on to it, I'll choose to be optimistic about it, and yeah, it's funny because my partner, Alex, who is, you know, we work together too, we're around each other all the time, he has terrible sleep problems, he has night terrors. And so I'm really hoping, yeah. Yeah, that guttural, Oh God he'll wake up screaming and like last night he'll always be like turn on the light and then he'll start shuffling through our laundry basket thinking that our son Milo is buried and he's trying to uncover him and it's very intense so I'm very much hoping that he inherited my sleeping abilities which are Superb. And not Alex's. We are struggling right now. Okay. Okay. I got it. I got it. Yeah. But the week is good, you know? I am trying to hold on to the excitement of, it's looking like we will get to make this movie. And that in and of itself with all of this shit that comes with it, just being like, okay, there's, it looks like we actually get to see this idea through. And I know how few and far between that opportunity is. So trying to hang on to that.

Lorien: That'd be great. I'd love that. I love that. Sleep? Meh. Get a movie made. Yeah.

Kelly: Infamously good for sleeping habits is making a movie. Yeah. All right.

Lorien: I want to talk about this movie. Ghostlight light and I didn't know much going in, right? Jeff said let's have Kelly on and talk about Ghostlight light. I was like, okay. And hit some spots for me that I was really surprised about specifically around grief and processing feelings, which I am terrible at.

Kelly: Yeah. All of us. 

Lorien: I am like, I'm dead inside. I don't cry at movies. Right. But this, I was sobbing at some points that had nothing to do with actually going on in the movie. I don't even know what it was triggering. Audience, please go see it. It's delightful. I just don't know, you know, you won't be a wreck. But I just the, It's so specific about this specific family and this specific play and the theater company. And yet, it hit something in me, even outside being in the theater. It's the specifics that really nailed me. Yeah. I just wanted to talk about that a little bit, like how you find that in a very complex story, you know, what the choices that you make around that.

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I really do try to write what I know, which is like such a cliche piece of advice, but I don't know I always watch like space movies or whatever. And I'm like, how do they? How do I write about this? I'm so impressed with the imagination, but I'm not sure my imagination is that good. And so it's just easier for me to write about specific worlds that I really love. Because I think it comes through when a writer tackles something that they have a lot of warmth for, and something that they feel really connected to. And I'm from Arkansas. I was born and raised there. And I started doing theater and I was six years old speaking of little women and like Louisa May Alcott, I was cast as one of the kids who gets like scarlet fever and then gives it to Beth and Beth dies. And I was like, I'm hooked on the drama. And so that sort of like community theater, especially in a place like Arkansas, which nobody is doing theater in Arkansas to get rich or famous or get noticed. It's for the love of it. And I was exposed to, you know, I was like going to Immaculate Conception Elementary School during the day, but then at night getting to go and do plays with my friends, and also with adults who I never would have been, I never would have gotten to meet, and people who were openly queer, and that wasn't a very common thing in the South. It is in a Catholic sort of upbringing and I'm just I'm so grateful that was my experience with theater because it's about making the play, but it's about so much more than that too. It really is. You have this little microcosm of family and community for however long the rehearsal and it's really important. Production period is. And then you're like, Oh we've bonded in a way that we're going to carry with us forever. And I felt that from the time that I was a little kid. And so I think getting to write about that was really fun for me because I got to revisit a place that is very near and dear to my heart, which is community theater, you know, not Broadway, not something where anybody's getting paid. It's just you're building the set until 2 AM and you're scrounging around for costumes anywhere you can get it, and it's for the love of the game rather than anything else.

Lorien: Yes. Just to be clear, I was a community theater actress. I was not doing anything fancy.

Kelly: Yeah!

Lorien: The only time I got paid to be an actor was when I did Murder Mystery Dinner Theater. At restaurants, it was improv, and I got 25 and a dinner.

Kelly: Isn't it funny that I, you know, honestly, I still think that's an okay deal. It's not great, but it's not the worst. At least you got food.

Lorien: I was the best. I loved it so much. So, no I love that. And that family aspect, so the family that's cast in your movie is an actual mother, father, daughter, family. How was it what made you decide to cast them and what was it like directing them in this really, you know, personal story?

Kelly: It was awesome, but really, it was amazing. So I wrote the lead with the lead actor. Actor Keith Kupferer in mind because he and I had done a play together 10 years ago. He had played my Dad And so I knew when I was writing the character that he was perfect for it like believably blue collar Also incredibly naturalistic and could go through this huge emotional transformation and be really funny And so I wrote it with him in mind and then he wrote to Alex and me and he said Hey, I know that there's this great part for a teenage girl in it My daughter is actually 15. She was in Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret? She would kill me if I didn't ask if she could audition. And so we had her come and do one of those table reads where we just get feedback from actors. And she was so good. And so, and I mean this in the best way. Yeah, like she had this volatility that the character has to have. And after the reading, we sort of saw Keith and Catherine, who are the actors behind the scrim in this theater where we did the reading. And she was like, I sucked dad. I sucked. I was flat. And he was like, you did good kid. Don't you worry. And we were like, That's their dynamic. And then Tara, who is their wife and mother is this just beloved Chicago theater actor. And so our casting director, Mickey Pascal and Jennifer Rudnick and AJ Links, said, you have unintentionally written this family into this script. They were like, this is their dynamic. And I didn't know Tara that well, and I didn't know Catherine at all. But sure enough, when we cast them and they showed up on set, it was like, holy shit, this is a moment of serendipity because they fit the characters so beautifully.They added to what was already in the script in a way that just deepened it in ways that I think would have been impossible for people who weren't actually a family. And so that's one of those things that I'm like, I'm not religious at all. I'm very agnostic, but I'm just Thank you, universe, whoever like put those actors in our paths and the way that it happened. It felt really wonderful. Awesome.

Lorien: They were, I didn't know while I was watching it that they were a family. I didn't know until after. So cool. reshuffled things for me a little bit, but not that much. I loved her. The young woman's portrayal of that teen girl. Yeah. It spoke to me so personally, but all of the characters have this dynamic where they are not one thing, and they're not two things either. That there's a complexity in them that is all through the whole movie, specifically around how you're giving out information.

Kelly: Yeah, right.

Lorien: Like the discovery of this family's internal life. And so you meet them fully as people before you're meeting them as what's their problem? What are they trying to solve? Which I thought was really beautiful, but also not conventional at all in terms of traditional story structure, you know, introduce the problem. What is all that? And I don't want to give any spoiler alerts, but, you Even as the movie ends, it still feels very true to that. You know, there's, we're just sort of showing up for a moment in their life.

Kelly: Good. I'm really, I'm very glad about that. Again, I think because I don't have a ton of like training in screenwriting, there's a little bit of ignorance. bliss for me sometimes when it works. And I think especially because I'm coming from an actor and acting background, I always want to write characters that I would want to play. I never want to deliver a character or pages to an actor and be like, Hey, can you make this human? Sorry. Good luck. I want to give them something that they feel like, Oh, this is a fully formed character. And I'm excited to sink my teeth into it. So thank you. That's nice to hear.

Lorien: And I think it speaks to the directing so much too, the work that you and Alex did sort of nurturing those characters, because the actors show up, they're a family, but it's, you know, the writing and the directing and bringing that to life is so much that and Sorry, I don't know what I'm gonna say. I don't know what I was rambling. Seriously, the movie got me. And it's hard for me to articulate why because I really crave traditional structure in movies, right? Like I watch a movie and I'm like, okay where are we? We're not at the bottom of Act Two. Oh my god, what's Act Three? Because my brain, almost not, but I wasn't doing this while I was watching your movie, which is very rare for me. My little story brain, you know, is oh so smart. Right? But I was really invested so much in the relationships, more so than uncovering the mystery. Yeah. I knew something was under it, but it wasn't like What is it? What is it? There wasn't, it didn't take away from this family, which I really appreciated.

Kelly: I'm so glad, like a major touchstone for me with this movie was Manchester by the Sea. Again, written by, you know, an incredible playwright in addition to being a great screenwriter. I love the way Kenneth Lonergan slowly unfurls the information in that movie and it feels so character based. And there are plenty of moments in that movie that aren't progressing the plot. You're just growing to love the characters. And so I really took that as a model. I say the movie is Manchester by the Sea Meets Waiting for Guffman . And if you've seen the movie, I think there, I think that kind of makes sense. But yeah I'm, my favorite movies are character pieces where. Tiny details that have nothing to do with structure are the things that I remember and love. Like, when you talk about the specifics, I remember watching Lady Bird, and when they're doing the production of Merrily We Roll Along, one of the actors, I think it's Beanie Feldstein turns her glass, and you see that the brown liquid in it is plastic. It's a prop that there's no real liquid in, and I was like, Fuck that is right. That is what the prop in a high school show, like little moments like that just make me buy in that I attempt to hope to have in some of the things that I do.

Lorien: So every time we do this show and we talk to somebody, I have these moments of clarity that get very disruptive in my brain. I have my MFA in playwriting.

Kelly: I didn't go to school for screenwriting, right? I've read the books, talked to a lot of people, but when I'm at my most having the most fun and the most joy, I write like a playwright. And that is how I wrote this feature that I had read. And the notes I've gotten are, does it need more structure? It needs to be more predictable. It needs to be more ABC in order to get financing. And I'm realizing what I am doing now is. Right? Oh, this doesn't work. The narrative drive is broken. But I wonder, now I'm in this place of how much do I trust my character work? Yeah. Right? So now I have, goddammit, now I have work, more bigger work to do. I'm mad about, because I was like, I'm going to do the plan. I'm going to re-break the whole thing. ABC, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3. And then I'm like, but how much am I, Losing. God damn. You know what Kelly? I haven't read it and I don't know, but I think that is like the constant struggle for us as writers is like, there is the predictable version that everybody feels comfortable with. And that can be sort of shiny and doesn't involve a lot of deep thought on the audience's part and I refer to it as like a, you scroll your phone. Yeah. During it like you watch it at home. You turn on Netflix. Please give me money. I'm not bashing you but Like you can take out your phone you scroll you miss a few you know minutes or a few scenes and you're like I basically know what happened. I'm fine. I didn't need to see that part of it. And you know, I don't mean this to be a soapbox, but I am very drawn to things that don't fit that model. And I know that's coming from a, I should also just say, I do not make a lot of money on my screenwriting. So if you, if anybody who's listening, wants to make money Please, again, I know nothing, but I know that the things that I'm drawn to, and at least the, you know, when I hear that St. Francis or Go Site resonates with people, I'm like, okay, something about sticking to the the little baby voice that hasn't been corrupted by all of the business surrounding it, that really is like the key. But also I pay my bills with voiceover work, so that is a huge grain of salt that I want to add to the mix.

Jeff: It's interesting though, Kelly, because I do know that you were workshopping the material with actors as you were going through it. So we talked about this a bit at the top, but there has to be, especially I debuted an indie that I wrote and it's the same kind of small financing, small personal film, but like you do kind of have to trust the instinct and the artist soul that got you to the page, but also understand and weigh the needs and expectations of an audience. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how do you chase the North Star but recognize that those other stars are very important as well?

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I do think it's sort of like acting that you can't just be selfish in the way that you act and it can't just be like, I'm going to cry in every scene because it feels good. You're servicing the overall story. And so while you're in the character, there's also hopefully 10 percent or maybe more of your brain that's going okay, is this working? Is this servicing the story? And I think that's sort of what it's like as a writer, where it can't just be like, my instinct tells me to go in 5, 000 directions that you want to be paying attention to, is what I'm after effective? Is it working? And to be really critical about that too, and to not be masturbatory about it and not be navel gazing. But again, to To think is the story that I'm trying to tell coming across because sometimes it's not and you really have to listen to that feedback but hopefully not in a super prescriptive way or in a super paint by numbers way that there are creative ways to get to whatever that structure need is and still honoring that instinctual place. I think it's always the combination of like left and right brain of being like, I really believe in that phrase that it's like write right, drunk, edit sober that you like. I tell you that all the time. I tried it once. Have you tried it? It does not work.

Lorien: No. No. I totally believe that. I'm an idiot when I've had more than two glasses of wine. I just laid down. I was like, I gotta go, I gotta lie down, and I'm ready to sleep.

Kelly: But the idea, yeah, the idea of writing with abandon and and then editing just savagely, you know, and being like, okay, it's okay that, that entire thing that I thought was brilliant in the light of day and then with actors around the table is not working. And I'm sure you, I'm sure you guys hear this all the time, but to sort of be too brained about it, but not let those structure executives get in your brain. Because I think that for me, it shuts me down really fast.

Lorien: Yeah. And I, yeah I agree with you. 

Kelly: I think I'm just in this place of, I don't know how to move forward with this script and I've been living in it for so long. So you've been living with your scripts for a while too. 

Lorien: How is it with you and your partner Alex? Do you guys talk about this stuff together about okay What choices are we gonna make and how do we defend them?

Kelly: Yes, he is. Yeah He is my primary like he's my first reader. I have him read as soon as I'm done with a scene. I'll have him read but then I have to be you know I think he's so smart and I end up taking 90 percent of his advice, but then I always, there's 10 percent of it that I still have to be like, that's smart, but I'm not going to. And I have to pull, this is where I feel really passionately about directing my own work. My own work now is I'm the director too. So you don't get to cut that thing. And that's really nice because I do end up, you know, taking the feedback, cutting a lot, but I occasionally have a very instinctual feeling about a moment and I'm like, we're not going to lose that. Yeah, but he's something I don't take for granted, or I'm sure he would say sometimes I do, but I don't take for granted how important it is to have a collaborator like that. Because oftentimes if I get too far off the path, he'll very quickly be like, and sort of gently steer me back to where I want to be.

Lorien: How do you separate your personal life, cause he's your life partner as well, right?

Kelly: Yeah. Father, filo, and your two cats. So how do you, I've always, so my husband is not involved in my writing. Like he gets very attached to it, why'd you change it? Yeah. He can't. The development process for him is I'll be like, wait, I'm going to pitch you a new take. And says wait a minute. What happened to that character? Right.

Lorien: Yeah. He's not, and he doesn't listen to the show either. So we're fine. Oh, wow. Okay. It's good. It's good. Yeah. I have to have that. I have to have some separation between. my life, my professional stuff and my personal stuff with him. So how do you do that?

Kelly: It's a, no, there's no separation. And it's something that we try to talk really openly about because it is both wonderful and terrible in moments. And We try to, you know, we go to couples therapy regularly because it's something that we constantly have to talk about and not just in the creative collaboration of it, but like the logistical collaboration of it and okay, who's going to be sending this email to, you know, what people But I sort of, I have no idea what their relationship is but I look up to Greta Gerwig a lot and I love like marriage story. I think whatever they're doing in their partnership, I think maybe I really respect and admire it. And I think Alex, per, Alex and I perhaps have a little bit of that, which is we really respect each other. We say we're in an open creative relationship, meaning like we each go work on things separately. Our sort of aspirations are even different, like what we want out of our careers. But it's really nice to have somebody in the trenches with you, for me, in a very deep and involved way. Because You know, I write a lot, but I think without Alex's tenacity and his shameless asking for money, which I'm in so much awe of, and I'm just not great at it. Everything in me wants to be like, this is a bad investment, you shouldn't do it, you probably won't get your money back. And he's really good at being like, come along for the ride. This is gonna be a good movie, it's gonna be a good ride. Come be a part of this journey. And I think we balance each other out in a really good way. But It's hard, man. It's really hard sometimes. On this last tour that we did for Ghostlight I encountered some pretty wild sexism. Just in terms of the way the movie was credited in several reviews, they would say, Alex Thompson's Ghostlight. Or they would be at a Q&A, and he was introduced as the director. And I had to be like, Co director, I'm here too. Or they'll miscredit the script as being by both of us. And this is very Google-able information. You know, it's we'll be doing interviews, or In press it'll be in writing or somebody will really applaud his choice about one reviewer went on and on about Thompson's Humanist films and Thompson's ability to capture and that's really hard as a couple Because of course it he wants the recognition and of course like it feels good to hear those things about yourself And you have me who's like that's fucked up We have got to change that now and it's easy for me to feel resentful about it but for the most part, at the end of the day, I would choose to work with him again and again.

Lorien: Yeah, that's really hard. I think a lot of writing partners or co writers who didn't co write it together, but wrote at different times feel that way. Yeah. Feel that as well. What's wrong with me today?

Kelly: I do it all the time.

Lorien: But yeah, that, that's tough. I mean, just in terms of basic stuff, that's everywhere though. Right? Like I'm the primary breadwinner in my family. And to get my tax accountant to put me as the primary and my husband as the spouse took years.

Kelly: It's crazy. Yeah. It's so crazy, when we go location scout as a duo, and I was pregnant when we were location scouting, I was pregnant when we filmed the movie there would be people who wouldn't even look at me. There was this one guy in particular who owned the location that we were trying to get, he directed everything about the movie to Alex, and then he would turn to me and talk to me about the baby. And it was. It's really interesting to just be like, Oh we have not come as far as we think we have. And yes, there are more and more female executives, but the sort of bias and pervasiveness of sexism and I'm sure racism, it's interesting to be experiencing it because I work so closely with my male partner. It's very easy to see.

Lorien: And it's not just men who do this. I mean, there's a lot of misogyny and racism and bias that happens where we just sort of all gravitate to like the tallest. It's really, it's tough. We have to reinvestigate it. I mean, we talked to our listeners a lot about when you're in a room with executives you're pitching, you're talking to all of them because you don't actually know who has the power in the room. You don't know the relationships. And who's going to have the power?

Kelly: Especially with executives, I feel like they're all playing musical chairs all the time. Oh, yes. Yes. And you're, like, constantly getting emails being like, I've left this company, I'm now with this company, and the person who's a lowly assistant is probably gonna be the person who's running the studio in about three years. And so, yeah, it's, and I think just from a business perspective, but more importantly from a humanity perspective, talk to everybody in the room. Yeah. See people there as They're all equals. They're all people. Yes, maybe you're having to sell the idea, maybe, to one more person, but be a good human and try not to, as much as we can, I think, if we can resist the hierarchy that's been really socialized into us and be like, everybody in here is human. Let's talk to each other. This is some once upon a time shit. Let's not make it so. What do you mean?

Lorien: You brought that up earlier. What is, what do you mean by once upon a time?

Kelly: I mean in the best way, I find it very liberating to think and to be real about we're not curing cancer at the end of the day. No, thank God, nobody is going to die based on the work that we're doing. In a hopeful way, maybe some people might be helped by it, but I, as a person who does not like a lot of pressure to be on me, it frees me up to be my childlike playful self when I remind myself, Oh, we're playing once upon a time. We're playing pretend. It makes me feel it opens me up rather than shuts me down. Because I think especially in quote unquote Hollywood, there's this feeling that what we're doing is the most intense, important thing, and the world revolves around it, and then I think you can lose sight of that's gonna sap everything of its joy and its magic really quickly, at least for me.That's, I don't know. I don't like that. 

Lorien: We used to have moments like that at Pixar, where it would just be like, high stakes, end of the world, who's gonna be at the meeting, when does the meeting start, and all the assets and everything. And it would be like, and one of us would be like, we're not curing cancer, we're making an animated film. We affect people and change lives. And we have to focus on that. And in order to do that, we have to calm down and reconnect with our actual creative selves. Always this, like it was always, we're not curing cancer was the default, which I don't know if that's offensive or not, but like it, but it was always this moment of Calm down. We get to make this. 

Kelly:  Exactly. We get to be here and play in this space. Especially when it's your job, and when there are literal millions of dollars. Every time I tell my mom, our budgets are small, but they are. Growing by pennies at a time and every time I tell her like, oh, and now this is the budget. She just goes, oh no, because her first thought is oh God, that amount of money. Cause you talk to a lay person and they're like, excuse me, movies cost how much? Oh, right. 

Lorien: And I want to make an indie for 7 million, 10 million…

Kelly: I know. I know. But she would hear that and be like, oh my god, that's so much money. Right. Yeah. And so the money makes it stressful, but I think, I mean, however you guys are doing it at Pixar. I, you can tell that there is somebody in there saying wait, let's calm down. Let's remember we get to do this. Because I really do think in the same way that you can sort of taste love and food, I think you can taste the spirit of the creativity in the filmmaking. And you can also really sense when there's a lot of fear and tension and you're like, God, it seems like a lot of people probably lost their mind on this shoot. Right. Right. And then turns out, people did. I think,

Jeff: Related to that, Kelly, I know Ian was mentioning that in St. Francis, and I don't know about Ghostlight Light, but there were some reshoots. Can you speak, if you feel comfortable I'd love to hear about a little bit of the process of reshooting. In particular, if I'm right, that opening scene in St. Francis was a reshoot. Yeah. And both Jonathan, my co producer, and I talk about how that's such a sharp and effective way to introduce us to your character in that movie. So Can you talk a little bit about reshooting and just the philosophy around opening scenes? Because that's always interesting to us as writers on the show.

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, we reshot a lot in Ghostlight Light too. For St. Francis, we had a rough cut and then very quickly we, we realized Nobody cares about this main character because they don't know anything about her. And so, the challenge was for me and for Alex to think What is a very fast way that we can, you know, give that exposition of this is who we're dealing with, but also sort of put you in the emotional place? And so the goal of that was have it be funny, have it, have you immediately be like, Oh God, she's living a life that other people would consider like a nightmare. She's not successful. And so that was really fun to go reshoot. But that, you know, that was like a month later. In Ghostlight, we did all of our reshoots during our production schedule. And the way that it worked was, oftentimes it was Alex who is, he would be like, I don't like the way that scene looked. Can we just reshoot it? And then we would just build it into our days. And I think the idea is, I don't know. I think reshoots should be part of it. It's almost like edits in screenwriting that there should be revisions that you're gonna assume that there will be revisions because of course you're not going to nail it every single day on set. And so we've just started being like, let's build in time for reshoots and let's have our editor be editing. While we're making the thing so that he can be like, I think we need another go at this or that we can watch scenes and in their rough form and be like, this isn't accomplishing what we wanted. And on Ghostlight we forgot a scene. And because our editor was Editing while we were making the movie we wrapped the next day He called and he was like, did you cut scene 101 and we had to call everybody after the wrap party get everybody back in And shoot what we forgot You didn't see it. We didn't see it in the final edit.

Lorien: So what you're talking about is similar to how animated films are made Right. The editor is one of the very first people on.

Kelly: Yeah.

Lorien: And we're editing as we're drawing storyboards, as we're animating, and everything gets sort of built in as changes are made. Those budgets are a little higher though.

Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. I've heard. To put it out there. You know. You can't do a crowdfunding one for that.

Lorien: No. No. Like hundreds of millions of dollars. 

Jeff: I am kind of curious though, Kelly. Just cause I'm an indie film nerd. You haveyour production schedule and like. How, like for Ghostlight Light, how much did you like pre attribute to reshoots at the end of your shoot?

Kelly: It's very interesting. I would say probably all told, like half a day in a day. Okay. Yeah. And it wasn't like, this will be for reshoots. It was like. We have to just know that we will have time within this schedule. So we have the ability to shift things around and then shoot it when we need to. But it's always run and gun, you know, there's never enough time. It was just about making time and being okay with it and being like, this will be part of it.

Jeff: Yeah, I think for our listeners who aren't LA based, because we have a lot of them who want to try to put up their own indie or kind of do it outside of the studio system. I know there's like a big question, but do you have any advice or thoughts for our listeners as to how they can effectively put up their own work? Because you've done it twice and got to two of what I would consider like the most important American festivals. So You are doing something right.

Kelly: Thanks. I mean, for me, it's really all about our team, because we work with the same people again and again, people who really believe in it and know the kind of film that it's going to be. And again, aren't in it for the money. I mean, it would be great if we all got paid what we deserve one day. And that's the goal is that we continue building this core team who eventually, you know, We'll be making work together repeatedly and get compensated, but I would say find your group of compatriots who can start really small together, who are excited about the same things. Find somebody who's good at asking for money, and it doesn't have to be a lot. You know, I think the budget for St. Francis was like 130, 000. We initially thought it was going to be 60, 000, and then, you know, of course it became more. But I would say We get told a lot, Alex and I get told a lot like, Oh, this is going to cost 10 million. And Alex, especially, is really suspicious of that, and so he interrogates it. He says all the time that Budget is creative, and he interrogates it, and we do everything that we can to get all of the money up on screen. And so, I mean, I was talking to somebody from L. A. who was like, I want to make this short. The budget's 80 grand. And I like, read the short. And it was a two-location. I was like, there's no fucking way this should cost 80 grand. But she had been told by somebody that it should cost that amount of money. And so I would say my big advice would be to politely say thank you to the people who say that it should cost like 10 million. And then go find the people who say, I don't think it has to, and really hook up with them, treat them kindly, give them credit. Shout them out. Don't think, don't use them as stepping stones. Treat them as forever collaborators and start things really small because you're going to get better as a group. And then people, you'll start getting noticed more and more. I talked to so many writers who were like, yeah, my script's in development with the studio. It's been there for three years and the budget's going to be huge. And I'm like, in the back of my head, I'm like, that's never going to fucking happen. And maybe it will. But I think if you're like waiting for them, you know, if you're waiting for somebody, nobody's coming to save us is another one of my favorite mantras, which is yeah, we just got to do it. We got to do it ourselves and find the people.

Lorien: Money people hang out. These people that ask for money and do great budgets. Like where do they hang out? Where can I find one?

Kelly: God, I don't, besides my partner, I really don't know. I mean, we do have a group like Ian is good at that too. Like he's there to support and get things made. And if he believes in it, he will go and ask for that money. I, but truly this is again, I know nothing like this will happen and I don't think there is a formula or a way. I think you just have to keep looking for the people. This is. This is how it happened for me as I happened to meet Alex who happened to have this community and then, you know, it's not all luck. We're very intentional about what we do, but I could never repeat it. There is a lot of happenstance that comes into it.

Jeff: It's belief too. I think part of it is to ask for that money. You have to deeply believe in the work. And sometimes that's the hardest thing I think for indie filmmakers is to believe that you're entitled to the money you're asking for because there's that imposter syndrome that can affect, you know, that's, that can be hard I think.

Kelly: Oh, a hundred percent. And I always try to unpack with my therapist: What is personality? Between Alex and me, why is it easy for him to ask for money? And why is it hard for me? And I think some of that is personality. I think some of that is the way that we were raised. I think a lot of that is socialization, where it's like, You know, if you're a woman, or a person of color, or not a straight white man, even though there are plenty of straight white men who I think don't want to ask for money, I'm just always trying to unpack for myself, what do I need to acknowledge to get better at believing in myself? And a lot of it is oh, not all of this is my fault. The lack of, or how hard it can be to believe in myself. Some of this I was gifted by our culture, and then to acknowledge it and go from there.

Lorien: I think that is what I'm dealing with. That's been my week, right? Is that everyone else is right about the work and all of my worst fears are, is the truth. Instead of celebrating at the beginning of this episode, I felt I don't have any ego. It's all this thing. I need to rewrite everything. And then I'm thinking, But what if what I've written doesn't need to be completely demolished? And what if I figure out what I love about it and hold on to that, which is what I'm always talking about on the show too.What do you love instead of what's working or what's broken? What do you love? What is like for you, but it's such a tricky process. It's so confusing.

Kelly: Yeah, so confusing because what's hubris? What is just, I just love it so much because I love it and I don't want to let it go of it and I'm attached to it, but what is actually the essence of the thing? And yes, so many voices from the inside and the outside. Exactly. It is rough to try to figure out what my voice even is there in the cacophony of it. Exactly. And what are old belief systems and your mother and, you know, all that stuff. It's

Kelly: That's real! Yeah, I mean, for me, the only thing that works for me is I have to get really quiet and actually do a close read of it.

George Saunders, I don't know if you read his book I fucking love that book, but he talks about sort of the internal meter of I think the way he phrases it is like on one side is positive and on the other is negative. And as you're reading your own work, you just closely monitor that meeting that meter.

And you'll know when you're like, I like that thing. And then if you're paying attention and if you don't have an ego about it, you'll know when you hit the thing that the meter is going, Oh, I don't really like that thing. Or that isn't really working. And so I have to get as quiet as possible and just sit by myself and try to get rid of all the other voices and be like, what do I

like?

Kelly: Michaela Cole said that awesome thing in her Emmys acceptance speech about, you know, don't be afraid to disappear and see what comes to you in the quiet. And I think that's the only way to get in tune with that internal voice. Rather than everybody else because like you're saying it's so loud with all those voices.

Lorien: Yeah, it's funny. My version of quiet though is going to this Bar in Burbank that serves hot dogs and beer. And then the eighties rock is so loud, but it's the only thing that helps my ADHD brain focus that I need. So like me going to a cabin to write you know, I think Phoebe, Willa, Phoebe, Willa bridge has that story. And Michaela Cole, like I always went out and wrote, I was like, Oh my God, nightmare, right? For me, it's Hot dog stink, loud 80s rock with my laptop. 

Kelly: Oh, that's so cool. That sounds more fun than the attic in Louisa May Alcott's house anyway. The ink stained fingers.

Lorien: It's just ADHD or whatever PTSD, who knows what it is. All the D's. All the trauma, whatever. Anyway, it's been awesome talking to you. But before we wrap, we have three questions we ask every guest.

Kelly: Oh, exciting.

Lorien: And the first one is, what brings you the most joy when it comes to your work?

Kelly: Ooh I really love, I love working with actors. And I remember that there was this moment in Ghostlight where I really like having ensemble scenes where people, like people are arguing and there are different perspectives in there. And there's like a rhythm and a crackle. to it. And I really loved directing those scenes. Like in Ghostlight, there was a moment where I was like, what if you tried it with a southern accent on this part? And he was like, yes. And that sort of yes, ending of building something with people makes it just so fun.

Lorien: That's awesome.

Jeff: And our next question is coming from our co producer, Jonathan, who I think has been introduced on the show, but Jonathan, this might be your big day. 

Jonathan: What pisses you off about your work?

Kelly: My work?

Jeff: What pisses you off about writing is another way to think about it.

Kelly: I really hate being faced with my own mediocrity. Again and again and again and to me that is my process in writing is I have to keep just, I don't think it's all bad, but the constant ritual of that's not good. That's not great. That's fine. But it's not great. That's really hard to then get to things that are good.

Lorien: Welcome to parenthood.

Kelly: I know there are so many similarities between writing and directing and parenting. Yeah.

Jeff: You know, I thought, I'm so glad you put language to that because like I am redrafting something right now and I've been feeling this profuse sense that I'm very mediocre and you're right that it's like abjectly accepting that's just this is how it will come out. So thank you. I feel like that was a gift that you just gave me. 

Kelly: Mediocrity.

Jeff: Yeah.

Kelly: From me to you.

Jeff: Thanks. Perfect. All right. The last question is if you can have a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give to that? Kelly? 

Kelly: Oh, I would say I would say have more fun. Like when I was a kid, my best friend and I would spend hours making up dance routines on a trampoline or like water ballet. There was such a sense of, you know, they say try to get back to who you were before the world fucked you up. And I think I'm writing my best when there is a real sense of play. And, I think in my acting career, and then sometimes in my writing, there was this sense of Fuck, I'm not good. God damn it, I gotta get good. And again, the sense of tension and seriousness, and the stakes are so fucking high, that just strangled playfulness. Out of me as an actor, I started having panic attacks on stage and even in Q and A's, you know, for St. Francis, I would have a panic attack because I'd be like, Oh my God, it's really this Q and A is important in the way that I talk about abortion. And the more that I can just take the pressure off myself and get back to that sense of again, for the love of it. And this is some once upon a time shit like. Nobody's gonna die if I don't answer this question well. I would say, Younger Kelly, you are so good at having fun. Stick to that.

Lorien: That's beautiful. Thank you. It's been amazing having you on. Thank you so much. It's been so fun to get to talk to you all. I really appreciate you inviting me. Thanks so much to Kelly for coming on the show and for everyone tuning in.

Jeff: Kelly's movie Ghostlight Light is available now on all platforms, Amazon, Apple, anywhere you can find movies. Her first movie, St. Francis, is another favorite of mine, so definitely worth checking out. And if you haven't yet, we'd love to come meet you over at TSL Workshops. It's a chance to interact with Meg and Laurie and pitch them your story ideas and just feel a closer sense of community with the TSL listeners who join you virtually every week when you listen to the show. So we love it. We'd love to meet you over there. I will link it in the description below.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.