212 | Outlander Writer/Producer Barbara Stepansky: How Winning The Nicholl Fellowship Changed Her Career

Barbara Stepansky’s career is the culmination of years of incredibly hard work. In addition to winning the highly competitive Nicholl Fellowship, Barbara is a WGA-award winner for a TV movie, the head writer on a German-language Netflix show, and a writer/producer on Starz’s Outlander. Today’s conversation is all about how Barbara built her uniquely multi-faceted career.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. 

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna and today we're chatting with Barbara Sipansky. She is a head writer on Woman of the Dead, a Netflix original series, and a writer producer on the Sony Starz TV show Outlander. 

Meg: Barbara is a WGA award winner, a Nicoll Fellow, and an award winning independent film director. She wrote Flint about the Flint water crisis for Sony Lifetime with Queen Latifah. Which was nominated for a Critics Choice and won a WGA award. Hi, Barbara! Hello. Good to be here. So good to see you. Yes, likewise. We can't wait to chat with Barbara about her career, but before we do that, we're going to be talking about our weeks or what we like to call adventures in screenwriting. Lorien, we'll let you start. How was your week? 

Lorien: My week was interesting. I had to go out of town. I also had to bring my daughter with me. So I was in that place where I have a lot of work to do, thinking that somehow I was going to get the work done. But then once I got where I was realizing I had no time to do anything. And so I just got even more behind than I really am. So if I owe you an email or a text, please stand by, I will be getting to it eventually. What I realized though is how absolutely limited my actual writing time really is. All the other things that I do that fill up my life. And, you know, I'm a professional writer. I'm a full time writer. I have a dream where it's like, if all I do, I wish I could just be a full time writer. And it's like, okay, here it is. But my life gets filled up with so many other things that it is Okay, it comes down to time management, which I am terrible at apparently, and calendaring, which I'm also terrible at, so I'm working on this. Okay, I'm not terrible at it. I am learning how to manage it. How about that? But it makes me feel very overwhelmed and behind, and then I don't know quite what to do. So I just had a great chat with my manager, and we have decided that I need to prioritize my writing time. I just needed someone to Tell me what to do so that I would listen because I couldn't come up with it myself for some reason because I got so down about it. But you know, it was also a great week because I got to support one of my best friends in a huge movie she had open last weekend. I don't know when this podcast will drop, but that was really exciting. Barbara, how was your week? 

Barbara: My week was topsy turvy. I'm sort of back in development on a bunch of things, but also had this really crazy idea of signing up my kid for beach camp.I live in Burbank. The beach is an hour away, and that's, you know, Without traffic.  17 miles equals an hour away in LA.  And so I've been driving a lot this week, which takes away from my driving time. And it makes me mad. So, other than that, it's been a good week. 

Meg: Are you developing things for yourself like shows or things to direct? You don't have to get specific, of course. It's all, I'm sure, top secret, but what are you kind of turning your attention to coming back from the Outlander set? 

Barbara: Well, most of the stuff. That I'm now working on is for either production companies or other producers or collaborating with people. So none of it is like, let's say my own personal baby that I just want to spend time with alone. I just don't have the time for it right now, but hopefully soon. That's good and bad. Yes. Good. Because work is good. But those babies sometimes tap us on the shoulder. I know. 

Meg: My week, you know, this is that once every decade you get to say as a writer, you get to go to the premiere of a big movie and, you know, you have a chance to have something made. So it was spectacular. You know, it did well at the box office, which is always a good thing. That's never a bad thing. Suddenly, people actually want to do press interviews with writers. 

Lorien: Okay. Wait, I'm sorry. Well, the box office is different from the biggest animated opening in the history of the world. No. Let's talk about international. International. It was the biggest and domestically incredible to still beat us. No, it's amazing. It's the biggest international opening animated movie in the history of the world. It's amazing. Let's just celebrate that. 

Meg: Yeah. I'm very, I am celebrating a lot. I loved that we all went to El Capitan. All of us.

Barbara: Yes, I came. I came too. 

Meg: I know. Everybody here. Everybody here but our out of towners. So. 

Barbara: It was amazing.

Meg: Oh, thank you. It was so fun to meet people and to talk to the people who came and even the little kids and I just, that's the best part is the people who connect to the movie and want to talk to you about their lives and their anxiety and their belief systems. And that to me is the absolute best part of it. And of course all the Facebook fun stuff of people. I love seeing people take their pictures in front of the posters, their kids, them. That's my favorite part, you know? Yeah. Because you do these crazy jobs, right? Where it's years and years and years of your life.There's a lot of, you know, there's stress because it's real and there's teams and you got to get a story right. But it's all right. You're like, oh, right. It's worth it. There's the baby. There's the beautiful baby going out into the world and being, and connecting with people. So it was good.

But in true Hollywood fashion, The life of a writer is never a singular experience because you get that super high, which is, I'm still in it, by the way, I'm still riding that beautiful wave, but at the same time, the current project I'm working on, you know, I'm getting, you know, just, they're just like not liking it. And it's a bit of a thorn in the side of this wonderful experience, but that is. Being creative, right? It's not ever monochromatic. There is always the next thing that suddenly you're back in the chopper and what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do except do your best and keep going? So that's been an interesting experience. Mostly thanks to my friend Lorien for constantly reminding me.Just sticking with the joy of it and having faith that this other project will work itself out. You know, the muses, something's happening. It's roiling. The muses want it to shift either away from us as writers, or I don't know what it wants, but I'm just going to have to trust so much of being an artist is trusting, don't you think? You have to trust that it will come. You have to trust the teams you're working with. You have to trust that when things aren't working, they will get better. Even when you're on this high wave, I still have to trust because people take potshots at people on the wave, you know, you still have to trust the other little voices, just, they are, people can have their opinions. So I'm having a blast. And trust is so easy to do. Oh my god, it's so easy. Trust is so easy. Even though I think most people who are writers because they had their trust broken very young, at a very young age. I really do. It's such an oxymoron. But anyway, so that was my week. It was super fun.

Jeff: Can I ask you an emerging writer question? To me it would seem like you would have some heat right now because you are a writer on a movie that is the second highest animated grossing movie ever. Does that affect your other projects or do you feel like they kind of stand independently? 

Meg: Well, we're going to see literally, because I don't know if it will affect this project or it won't, I don't know it, it might, or it just might be, this isn't a good match, creative differences. We want different things out of this project. And that's not bad. You know what I mean? Like, it's okay. It, if. If the way we took the story isn't the way the producers or the studio were hoping because we had different ideas and didn't know it until we turned it in, that happens all the time, right? So I don't know. I really don't know. I'll let you know next week, but it's no, it's really good for your career. It's funny because I think people think, and I don't know, Barbara, but I'd love to hear your view on this too. I think people who are outside of the business think, well, it's all about the reviews. But the truth is, it's all about the box office. It's all about, or I guess on TV, how many people watch it? Is it popular? Because that's really, you know, it's a business in the end. So making money is spectacular for your career. In terms of, you know, you, that wave will just wave you out a bit further. You still have to, you know, You still have to like write things that are great and move forward and you still have to do all that. But no, absolutely. It's a wonderful thing to be involved in a movie that made as much money. Barbara, is it the same in television or for the films on the more indie track that you've, that you wrote and directed? 

Barbara: Well, for the Indie track, I think the reviews tend to be more important. 

Meg: Oh, that's interesting. Yes, of course. That makes sense. 

Barbara: Think something that is, you know, critically acclaimed often helps a filmmaker and those sorts of projects more to then get bigger and bigger films. Maybe. I don't know.  But I think you want those reviews to be good. In TV I often feel like I don't know how many people are watching it or how well received it is. I sometimes read reviews and sometimes I don't have the time and it just kind of goes back after a while. So it's a little, you know, that connection with the audience that you get from putting a studio film out into the world doesn't, isn't really the same. I hear podcasts of shows that, you know, I've written on I will see what the fans are saying. I'm always delighted when they get little Easter eggs and stuff we really put in there for them. So that's fun, but you know, you often don't get that instant reaction. Especially because of streaming, right? Because it used to be back in the olden days, you'd have the Nielsen's ratings come out, which is basically like the box office and they'd start ranking shows. But now, because people don't tell, right? They don't tell their data. I really don't know. So, you know, you just keep working and putting the best foot forward and the best stuff forward and and hope for the best. 

Meg: Okay, that's basically every creative artist ever. 

Barbara: Sorry, totally unspecific.

Meg: No, I'm saying that's art. That's trying to be an artist, right? No matter what the form. In the end, you just have to turn all the other voices off and do their best. 

Barbara: Which is hard. It's hard to put on those blinders and I was driving down, I was driving down Sunset Boulevard back from the poly to Burbank and I was just thinking of how many times people have told me this isn't good enough. You're not good enough. You're not like, you're too lazy and this or that teacher. Like, I've heard everything and I'm a very sensitive person. So I went and cried, but like, I was wondering to myself, like, what made me get up in the morning and be like, yeah, screw it. Just going to keep going. And something did something like this obsession with the medium, just. keeps you, at least me, like, I'm like, okay, well, I've cried, now I keep going. 

Meg: Yeah, you did some sort of steal, right? You just have to, it's, even if you don't even know it's there. It just comes.

Lorien: I think that's such a good question and I was wrestling with it today. Like I need to get a job. I need to work. I need to sell something. And then I, when I was talking to my manager, I was like, wait, I have a story to tell, right? What is that? And going back to that, instead of being driven by my panic and fear, and I don't have enough time and all that stuff, like, wait a minute.

And what's the high concept and plot and all those things. I have to start listening to that voice, the voice I can trust, right, instead of all the external voices and all those external voices are like panic and fear and the industry and post strike and all that stuff. But it's that, I think what you're talking about, Barbara, is the thing that drives us so much. The ability to trust and connect to that voice and our storyteller and our dreamer and to be sensitive and go inward and trust that we're going to find something there is stubborn. Yeah, we have to be a little bit stubborn. You know when people say you can't do that I go. I can't. Yeah. Did any part of you when that teacher said that, some part of you, I call it my Viking and sometimes he's way back in the mist and I don't know if he's even there, but my Viking will walk forward and be like, really? She can't? Do you have that? Or is that just me? 

Barbara: Oh, I definitely do. But it's like. Yeah. I feel like that book you know, he's just not that into you, like equates to this weirdly to me. Like it talked, it sort of spoke to me on this level of like, well, if somebody just doesn't like it, I don't care. And I don't, I can't care about what that person likes. I like it and so I have to keep going. But not caring about other people's opinions is tough because we're in a business that's so oddly subjective and everyone has opinions. So you just. Everyone has opinions. Yes. And they like, you have to tune it out somehow to keep going and still listen to the notes and still listen to the note behind the note and how to get better and how to improve, but not let that distract you from the ultimate message and the ultimate things that you want to say.

Lorien: So I have a question about that. So you and I met last October in Italy when I was mentoring at that retreat that you attended. And I, and what you were working on, how many TV shows while you were there? Like you kept ducking out after dinner to watch three TV shows, right? So you were actively writing on three TV shows in three writer's rooms, plus your project you were working on at the retreat. And the way the retreat is structured is you get notes from me, but you also get feedback from the group. And yeah. In terms of How to filter those out so you really can focus on what it is you want to say. Can you talk about that process and, you know, why you decided to take the project you were working on to a feature? I mean, yes, it was in Italy. I mean, obviously, but like a lot of people think about retreats or contests or not contests, but retreats as really for emerging writers. And you brought a newer project. So in a way, the project is an emerging project, but you're a professional writer. You were actively working on three shows while you were there.So can you talk a little bit about why you decided to go to the retreat with that project and then how to listen to notes? But take them in at the same, like, how, what that process was like for you. 

Barbara: Well, I am a professional writer because I listen to notes, but I went to the retreat. I've always dreamt of going to Italy to that kind of a place and just be able to shut yourself off from the rest of the world and focus on writing. And, you know, I was in a position where I could finally afford it. So I went and it was really, I'm a completist. I complete my scripts and I had the script that I haven't, I hadn't finished. I got stuck on page 72 and it was bugging the hell out of me and I just needed to find a place to complete it. And so I took it to an Italian retreat so I could figure out why I can't finish it. And my goal was not even to finish it because I finished a million scripts. I know I can do it. I had to sit there and figure, I didn't want to finish it in those three weeks. I just want to figure it out. Why can't I figure this out? And so that was like a big bit of a soul searching trip for me. And then, you know, the other TV shows we had, we, they were all going, so it's really just being part of, a discussion of beats and how we're continuing scripts. So that's just being in the writer's room, which is something that, that becomes also an, in a retreat.

Like if you've been in a writer's room at all, you know, how to separate kind of personal opinions from the project. And It's fun to see other people's projects and to be able to talk about it in a way that doesn't like, I want to say it doesn't hurt anyone. It's just like sort of ideas and throwing around brainstorming and I'll feed on that because. That's just how my brain has been raised and I'll take it and think about it. So I was able to finish that script, but not at the retreat when I came back. 

Lorien: I just want to ask you one more question, just in terms of, you know, you got notes from me, right? Notes are subjective. You got notes from other people. What was the process where you'd be like, that's a good idea, that's a good note, I'll try that, and then that thing where you're like, I hate that idea, I feel resistant to that, and either deciding to do it or not.

Barbara: I mean, it's sort of like deciding, well do I like it? Like, I like it, like as a director when we were, when I was working, I always said that if it's a good idea, I'll take it and I'll claim it's my own. So please bring them on, left and right. And so I thrive on getting ideas that bring me out of my own box. And even if I don't use that idea, it might spark something that leads to another idea. So, I always welcome the out of the box ideas because they also then confirm that no, that's definitely not the way I want to go. And so you learn even from the ones that you don't take, if that makes sense. So we talked a lot about themes and characters and how they move in that theme. And I think, you know, I tried something. I finished the script and then I rewrote it again. And now I might go back to some of the old ideas that I had, because now I figured out how to make them work within the new structure.

Lorien: Well congratulations for finishing since that was my goal or figuring out why you weren't finishing it so that you could finish it. Yeah. Yeah. No. 

Barbara: And you know, it's not perfect. It's like a barf draft, but it's there. It's there. It exists. That is such a battle. All right. 

Lorien: So, you know, me, I'm like, let's talk about Outlander. So when I found out, when we were talking, we were on the train. So Barbara saved my life getting from the Rome airport up the train because I was exhausted and confused and like, and I kept acting all bossy, like, I don't know where I'm going. And she'd be like, or we go this way. So she managed to get me on a train. And she was telling me how she writes for Outlander, and I was like, Outlander? Meg loves Outlander. And then I had this big plan to get you two together so you'd become best friends and talk about Outlander. And it worked. And here we are. 

Meg: And here we are. I'm a huge fan of Outlander. You know, sometimes it's great when people say, what do you write or what do you like? And I'm like, oh my God, like. I wish I had anything to do with this show. I love it so much. It's my happy place. So, let's just talk about Outlander. Let's just go start from the basics, okay? So, how did you get to Outlander? How did you get staffed on Outlander? 

Barbara: I had written Flint. It was just good. It just got nominated for the WGA awards. I was pretty much in the future space. at the time. And my agent said, Outlander is looking to staff. Are you interested? I think I probably at some point said, I want to do a big epic period piece. That sounds like the dream. And so she probably remembered, and I do romance really well. So they read my samples. I said, yes, of course I, they read my samples and I had a meeting and then I had another meeting and then I didn't hear back for a while and then found out that I was hired. So I started, you know, what was one of those things where I had the meetings in like March and April and then we started the room in August for season five.

Jeff: Feature samples to get for that staffing, or did you have TV samples ready for that? 

Barbara: I had a TV sample as well. So I had a TV spec like a pilot that was an original pilot. And I had a feature that was more the kind of love story angle that they wanted to also read. 

Meg: All right. So you're going on to a historical show. I'm assuming you read, I mean, that's a lot of books in that series. Are you just reading where you are and what that season's about? And did you have to go learn Scottish history in addition? How does that all work when you're in a staff of staffing? 

Barbara: Well, you read as much as possible. So I read all the books I watched every single episode. I really marked down what I liked and what worked and. So that I could talk about it in the room intelligently and sort of pull up stuff from my brain. And I did read some history, but not as much as, I didn't have as much time for that as I wanted to. And they assured me that they had a research assistant in the room, and if we had questions, it was sometimes a little bit of like, Making it fit like we would have an idea and then it would be asking the researchers like can this work in history what we want to do and then she or he would find said material and tell us yes or no.

Lorien: And how many seasons have you gotten to work on it? 

Barbara: I've worked on it since season five so I've been on five six. I did seven, I did, I wasn't in the room, but I did a freelance episode and now on eight. 

Lorien: Okay. And you just came back from Scotland. Why were you in Scotland? 

Barbara: Well, I was in Scotland because on our show the writer supervises an episode block doesn't necessarily have to be a block where their episode is in that they've written because it is such a collaborative process. We all know the episodes beat by beat so that we can all be there and know what the, where the story's going. 

Meg: But I really want you to talk about that because I really want people to hear what a writer does on set. But before we get there. Let's just talk about the room and what does a story room look like for Outlander? Because everybody's rooms are different, if you're allowed to say, in terms of how does it work, how do you go, do you break the whole season together and then divide up the episodes? How does it work? 

Barbara: Well, the showrunner sets the tone. The showrunner tells us, you know, to begin with kind of what the overarching direction is, where we're supposed to go with the books. They are adaptations. So the material exists and it's got a lot of fans. So fans expect us to pick up on certain elements in the book. So, we kind of start with marching orders. And following those marching orders, we sit down and start to see from the books like pull out all the stuff that stuck with us that we wanted to see and needed to be there. And so we have sort of a messy board at first where we have a lot of those story beats. written out. And then, you know, day by day, we start to go over those and put them in a structure and discuss them and then see how they can all work together. We have, of course, all these different characters, like there's a million characters by now, and they all have storylines. So you have A, B, C, D storylines, and sometimes they don't intersect. So we want to make sure we still are touching on them. And you start to see this bigger picture evolve for the season where we kind of start to see a beginning, middle and end, just how every project is just this one is exponentially longer than a feature film.

And then once that is being approved and has been gone through by showrunner and network, you then start to go into the nitty gritty and really talk about each episode and the beats within and how they make sense, how this is an interesting story and what are the beats of that stuff, story A and story B. And it's a very long process. 

Meg: And how are you deciding where an episode is because you have preexisting material. So is that just, are you kind of following the storyline to really determine that, or is it just kind of gut in the room, everybody's agreeing this would be where the episode would end, this is where the next one would start kind of thing.

Barbara: Yeah. I mean, it sort of very organically happens where we all agree that this is the, this is working and it's also with you. It works for the adaptation, works with the characters. You very quickly figure out when something is pitched or this, and you know, while you're talking you can even start to see that, oh wait, this doesn't work for the character at all. And you know, the characters are what they are, so they can't. We can't suddenly change the tune, but so the character dictates a lot for us, where we know that they are capable of so much and what they are capable of. And so then you know, we can't, for example, we can't have Jamie lose a fight with some random character because we've seen him fight a million people. And to come out strong. So like little things like that where we know we can't do certain things because people have seen these characters do bigger and better is important for us here to discuss it

Meg: And many of your fans have also read the book, so they really know it deeply. So Aren't now, if again, we can decide if you want to, if this is not something you want to talk about, but you also have Executive producers who are the actors at this point, right? So are the actors coming in early when you're that early breaking And giving input or are they still even when they come in? 

Barbara: They come in when they read the scripts essentially At this point, but they are in production meetings. They're very much involved and we like to keep them informed. They must  know their characters very well. Right. In terms of their notes back in terms of what Jamie does or do they get, I would think that at this point all of them because they've been on it so many years. 

Lorien: Like does he come in and say I'm going to really need to take off my shirt again here in this scene. This is really important. Like I'm going to need to do it multiple times here and we're all like, okay. 

Barbara: No. But yes, they do know their characters very well, and they happen to be very smart and kind. So we all collaborate together. But I think, you know, we try to, we all try to tell the best story we can with the source material. And so at a certain point, we have to, you know, You know, there's so much that there's only so much that we can share at the beginning because we don't know yet. We are still figuring it out. So we have to come to some clear picture before we can even say, okay, this is what we think is the best version. Right, right, right. 

Lorien: So when you're in the room, you're breaking story. Are you doing it so that you're breaking the outlines together as a room, and then a writer goes off to script, or are you, what is that process where you're, you go from outline to script?

Barbara: It's up on the board, which is basically like a very rough outline. Then the writer who's doing that episode writes the outline. It gets read and noted of what to change or what to like, you know, when the scene comes up. 

Lorien: In the room? 

Barbara: In the room. Okay, so the Well, no, by the second, but the second in command or the showrunner, it depends. And then you have a much clearer path into the script. So once you're, you're back in the room until your outline is at a, in a certain point where it can go to script and then you're let go to write for two weeks.

Lorien: And then you come back with the script, and then when does the room get to read the script? You know, because like you said you're gonna produce a block, so you have to know what all the scripts are, so you have to read, do you get to read everybody else's scripts, and when is that? 

Barbara: Eventually, like, first, you know, I submit the script to the showrunner, and then I get notes back. And once they think it's fine to share, then we do that. But everything kind of has to run through them just so we're all on the same page and not that they're suddenly reading something they didn't expect to be in it. 

Meg: So then you go to set, and I have a little bit of insight into this because I was lucky enough to visit Barbara on set, Dream Come True, with my sister in law, Karen. Everybody was very wonderful about it. Karen could literally quote everything. She's just quoting Outlander to me the entire week. But So, being on set, what is the writer's job on set? You're going to do this block, you're on set, what is your job while you're there? 

Barbara: So, essentially, we're there with two, two instead of the showrunner. So, in the place of the showrunner. So they can't, they have a lot of work. So he has to write and figure out his other show as well. So, we're there to really supervise story and make sure that stuff isn't dropped because, just because, you know, we maybe run out of time, or we're, the scene is running long, or something, and sometimes lines get dropped that then we miss, because we have to set this up in this episode in order to pay it off in episode five. So, we're there to really make sure that, It all works for the flow because our directors that come in only direct their episodes and they don't really know what's coming up in the future. So the showrunner has to rely on us to make sure that stuff gets done the way we planned it to and something accidentally or, you know, by circumstance doesn't fall away. So, it's tiny. It gets down to the minutiae of little tiny details when you're on set. 

Meg: Does being a director yourself help or hurt or both? 

Barbara: Both. It helps because I speak the language and so I know what's going on. I also know what they're doing. If you don't have that background, it's kind of tricky to know why they're doing a certain shot. I've done a lot of editing in my time, so I know how it all cuts together. I've been cutting in my head my whole film school life, so I just kind of intrinsically know that I'm missing this. be good to get this shot and that shot, but then, you know, it's bad because I don't want to step on the director's feet and start to dictate shots. So I tried to stay away from that and really just focus when I'm there on my job and on story. And to say, you know, we like, certain shots. I've studied the show. I know what it likes and to encourage stuff that I know the show and I would love to see and and so help everyone along. And that's where you have to step in and make sure everything's going according to plan, so to say.

Lorien: One of the things that we fought for in The Strike was to have writers on set producing their or other episodes. So can you talk a little bit about why that's a good thing that we fought for and won and why it's helpful when you go back into the room?

Barbara: Well, I  think TV is such a writer's medium because we have this arc of characters and storylines. And we, it's really important to be on set. So when we come to post, we don't have to reshoot. We don't have to ADR. It's something that we are there to keep the integrity of the show and of the story intact. Ideally, everyone works together on this. And ideally, then the other creatives can lean on the writer to, to know where it's going and how it's all progressing. And so I think, you know, I love it. I love being on sets though. So I have a big affinity for everyone's hard work, but then also what you learn and what you can take back to the writer's room is what you've realized production cannot do. You realize, oh, this actor is really good. Oh, when they're doing this and this, let's do more of that. Let's bring that back into the room. Kind of see the strength. of everyone much, much clearer. And you know, obviously we're still gonna write with like the best, the idealized, like, this is the ideal, this is what we're like, and we'll then still gonna have the situation where production will say, okay, we don't have the time or the budget for all of these battles. So you must cut down. 

Jeff: You obviously had on set experience before you came to Outlander, but for our writers who maybe haven't had a ton of on set experience, and they may be going to set, can you talk a little specifically about, like, let's say you are in Video Village, and you know, there's that feeling in your gut, like, the show doesn't want this, we need to pivot. How do you elegantly navigate that, because sets are complicated places, there's a lot of politics at play, like, maybe specifically, like, what does that look like, you know, how does the writer do that, and like, how do you find the courage to really, I love what you said, serve what the show wants, I thought that was such a good way to discuss the writer's job on a set.

Barbara: Well, you know, it's a very early. discovery process, I want to say. Like I try to be present and I mostly am in all rehearsals. Rehearsals for us or for me are really important. I need to just be present to see what's happening because once we've rehearsed it and it's up on its feet, it's all technical. It's all then shots and lighting and execution then it's really too late to step in and say, this is not going in the right direction. You have to, of course, correct ideally, even before rehearsal. If, you know, just talking to the director and saying, okay, this is the scene what are your ideas, then he'll or she'll tell me, I'm planning on doing this, I'm planning on blocking them here, and and then already there I can start to be like, seeing problem areas.

And 99, 98 percent of the time, it's probably fine. But there's like the 2 percent where I can say, Oh, that might be an issue. And explain why, because you can't just say that and break someone's heart. You have to have a reason. And then normally they fix it and they're like, Oh, okay. I see what you mean. And either they fix it or they pivot or they stick to their guns and say, I really think this is going to work, trust me. And I'll say, okay, but I told you, and that way that way I, and this is as far as I can take it. I think, you know, my authority doesn't reach. All that far, but we try and discuss it. And then, you know, sometimes they're right. It really does work. And sometimes we have to reshoot it. 

Jeff: That's wise though, before you're, you have takes, you know, rehearsal and that discussion before the cameras are off, that's a really good piece of advice for emerging writers. It's great. 

Barbara: Yeah. I think, you know, once the cameras are on it's sort of too late.

Lorien: Okay. I love all this talk about Outlander. I'm going to go watch it when we're done because I need to prioritize my writing time. Obviously, I'm going to go watch the next episode in Outlander. But can we talk about some of your other projects? So the three projects you were working on when we were in Italy were Outlander and you were also working on a German project, which you were writing in German, right?

Barbara: Yes. So that was the one of the dead, one of the dead season two. That's just been shot and in the can and I think in post production, so season two is coming out. Well, congratulations. 

Lorien: So you speak German, English, what other languages are you writing in? 

Barbara: Polish. Well, I speak Polish, but I don't write in Polish very well. I make a lot of mistakes. 

Lorien: So what's it like to, you know, you're an American screenwriter, an American TV writer, but you're also writing in German and for German studios, what's that like? It's great. You know, that pivot between German culture is different in TV than it is in, you know, in the States.

Meg: And a lot of our listeners are all over the world and they are multilingual People writing it in multiple languages. So any advice you would have for them? 

Barbara: You know, the more I learn, the less I know the, it does seem to me that it's a slightly different world, but in that when you're developing a TV show or when you're creating these episodes and TV there is no such thing as a showrunner. in Europe. There is a head writer who can control, help control the story and shape the overall and rewrite and polish. But I will not be on set on the European shows, or at least not on the German shows. I think once that is done, it falls into the hands of the director and they can still shape it. And change and adjust to what they need it to be, and you just have to kind of trust that process and that they're the best person to do that and to make those decisions. So I don't think they're used to the American system of having writers on sets. And even in the UK, where there's a little bit more of that, it's also more of a director's medium than in America. So I've, but other than that, I've treated every other show the way I've I've learned the American way and to really just kind of break story from the big picture from outside in, and then try and figure out all your like pillars as I like to call them now what are the pillars that are off the deck has, they have to stand out in the season and then work the beats around them to work towards that.

Meg: Now that's interesting because you're seeing it outside in, so could you talk a little bit about what you mean by that for television? When you say outside in for television, what does that mean?  

Barbara: What's my overarching story? What is going to happen in this season? Where are we going to take the character? We're going to take this character from, you know, being a meek shy person to, like, getting out of, out into the world and she's, you know, going to come full circle. So. It's like the overarching fields of everyone, of the characters and what they're going through. What are the circumstances that propel them to do that? What is the engine of the show? What are we seeing each episode? So it's really working from the pitch that everyone develops at some point and kind of is able to talk about these big picture elements intelligently, to then figuring out what does that mean? Translate it. 

Meg: So that means Into the specifics, right. Yes. And into drama or narrative or things that people are going to want to, you know, not turn away, right? Because on television, they can just bop away. All right. So we, I don't want to, I don't want to run out of time before we were able to talk about you as a director as well. Cause you are a writer director. Do you have any advice for our writer director listeners out there about making their project? It could be about how to do it, i. e. funding, or creatively, what made you want to direct that, you know, this idea, and the movie was taken for ransom. So we'd just love to talk to you a little bit about what advice you have for our writer directors out there.

Barbara: Well, it really depends, but I think, Right now, there's kind of no excuse anymore. You could take your iPhone and shoot something with friends. You know, the Duplass brothers have famously done that with their short films and really experimented. Christopher Nolan himself said, you can't be a director without directing. There's no other path to that. Nobody's going to hand you a movie because you've been a PA. Of course you can learn about the craft and what's going on in a set when you take those smaller roles. It's not a bad thing, but obviously it's great if you can be on set and learn about what's going on there before you take on that role.But ultimately it's about, you know, figuring out how, where do I put the camera? What do I tell the actors to get this performance? It's a very different craft than. than writing. It's a different hat. I really switch hats. It's what the story wants that determines where I, what my angles are, how I move the camera. So obviously everything starts with a story, but directing is much more analysis of that than you know, than just being creative and coming up with it in the moment, which is really what writing's about. Absolutely. 

Lorien: I think it's such good advice to do it. At the retreat there were eight writers and we had a film festival weekend or night and every single one of the writers brought a short that they'd directed and we watched them all. And I was so impressed because that showed me that they wrote something that they got funding for, did the whole thing and then had a finished project to show. Of course, Barbra's was the one that had me rolling on the floor screaming out loud because like, it was so awesome and uncomfortable at the same time. But like, for me, that was, I was, my level of respect for everybody just ratcheted up. So I go, Oh, they're doing it. They're not just here bringing a script and saying they want to be a director. They've all done it and they showed it to me. I mean, I can't do anything. That wasn't the point of this, but it was I think that's, it's a really powerful thing. Like just do it, figure it out. 

Barbara: Well, yeah. And I mean, even if you do your own mini film school, which like USC, we started out running around with a camera and just filming someone for our story without dialogue, couldn't have dialogue. It would be like figuring out how to visually express a story.

And then dialogue and sound was added to our next semester. And that was a really good way of thinking about story visually. 

Jeff: Just because it's recent news, you mentioned shooting on an iPhone brothers and Sean Baker just won the Palme d'Or at Cannes, which is like the highest film, you know, achievement you could ever win. And I don't know if you felt this way too, Barbara, but he kind of feels like one of us, you know, because like, He shot Tangerine on an iPhone and then was given the chance to direct Willem Dafoe and but it's just a great affirmation that I think what you're saying, especially now, is really important. And, you know, my first, I released a movie last fall and it was small and didn't cost much, but I felt so validated when I saw one of my heroes, who was a micro budget filmmaker for so long, win THE award, right? Like, he won the highest global award you can win in cinema, and he said, like, now I don't know what to do, like, this was my dream, it's been my dream for the last eight movies, but, I just because you mentioned it and because it's so timely, it does kind of feel like, like one of us, just like one that big, the big kahuna, which is really fun.

Barbara: Oh yeah. No, definitely. I saw your movie. I love it. I think it's so good. 

Jeff: That's so nice. I'm lost for words. That's very nice. 

Barbara: It's great and it's very inspiring. 

Jeff: Well, thanks. I feel the same way about your career.

Meg: So we do have to ask because so many of our listeners are emerging and hear about the Nicholls. So we can't let you get away here without asking about winning the Nichols. And you know, how did that impact your career? Anything Nicholl insider that you're allowed to talk about? I'm sure our audience would love to hear. 

Barbara: I mean, the Nicholl really changed my life. It completely changed my life. I became Barbara 2.0 after Nicholl  because I wasn't repped. I had been working in the industry for like a steady seven years. on these micro budget indie features or indie projects in various capacities, stuff that never made it to IMDb Pro. But I didn't have reps. I tried to get agents. I was hearing that's a good thing to have, but nobody wanted to take a stab at me. So, I was, but I still was working and I was still like hustling and meeting producers and I figured out, okay, well, producers, they make shit happen. So let me go down that path and see what I can do and meet more people that way. And that really worked for me. And I didn't really feel I needed reps. After a while, but then I won the nickel and it was for screenwriting wasn't for directing. So I had to kind of pivot my career over and redefine myself and I got a wonderful manager and I got wonderful agents and they really steered me more towards the screenwriting side of things.

Took a bunch of generals, started getting jobs and that's just what happened. I still direct. I still make little shorts on the side. Here and there just to keep that going and scratch that itch. 

Lorien: That's awesome. Sorry, our internet, my internet is wonky. Okay. So you said earlier that you're a completionist and that you finish your projects. So what are some writing habits that drive you to finish? Because. For a lot of us, that can be really hard, like number one, knowing when it's done, and when to stop rewriting, and sometimes just getting to the first barf draft, just like finishing the sentence. 

Barbara: Okay, so I am really strict once I'm writing.I have to. I do five pages per day and I try to, so I start my day and I'm on page 17 and I know I, by the end of the day, come what may, I have to be on 22. And so I forced myself and it doesn't matter. Is it midnight? I don't care, but I have to get to 22 that day. And then the next day I have to get to 27 and so forth. So I do have to make my schedule in page numbers because I've already broken it. I know the outline. Now I'm just turning out pages. So ideally that's the situation and that's just how my brain works. I need to get to that page number now, whether it's good or not is decided later when people read it and give me notes. And then I start the process again until it's better and so forth. So that's kind of how I work now. And it's been good for me. 

Lorien: I'm really inspired by this. It's like Anne Lamont Bird by Bird. It's Barbara's five pages a day, bird by bird. 

Meg: Well, because if you have two weeks to write your episode, you better get five pages a day done. It's due in two weeks. So I love that. I love that you hear that's in your work and. And your process. I think that's awesome. 

Barbara: Yeah. And I mean, once you get, once I get to it's like the very end, I speed up because now I know where I'm going. And it's really just like, I, my third acts are really fast. I get through them faster. 

Meg: Have you outlined before you're doing your five pages a day, or is it just a bar graph and you're just going five pages, five pages and see where it goes? Well, 

Barbara: I have to outline to do these five pages a day. Otherwise, I don't know where I'm going and I get stuck as I did with this other script. So, that's not going to happen if it's not outlined. Unfortunately, but I just sit there and I can barf draft five pages a day, just the way my brain works. And I know it's going to be like 250 pages cause I am going to get lost and have to like turn around in the woods and be like, and then she drove the car back to the diner because I know that all of that shit didn't work. But, sometimes I need to do that. I mean, sometimes I absolutely don't have time to do that and you just have to outline and do your five pages, but it's fun. I like the dreamer to have a chance to, but all right. 

Meg: This has been so fun. I just, first of all, I just love seeing you again and walking around your brain, your beautiful brain and your writing brain.

Barbara: Thank you. 

Meg: We always ask the same three questions at the end of an episode. So now it's your turn to answer. The first is what brings you the greatest joy when it comes to your work? 

Barbara: Definitely being in the flow. When I didn't notice that two hours just passed and I've kind of just been channeling and Didn't question it. I love love when I get to the channeling part of writing where it doesn't feel like you're working so hard and it's just characters talking to you. That's great. 

Lorien: All right. What pisses you off when it comes to your work?

Barbara: Ugh, procrastination pisses me off so much when I was like, well, I'll just watch another episode of The Flight Attendant while I try and figure this out instead of just figuring it out. 

Jeff: In fairness, The Flight Attendant is such an addictive show. I feel like who can resist? It's so good. I know. That is always a cliffhanger. So I, you know what? I blame the show. I don't blame you in that case. That's the goal, right? To create a show that fosters procrastination and other people. That's what we should, that's what we should aim for. Absolutely. Okay. The last question we ask Barbara is if you could go back and have a coffee with your writer self, your younger self, that is, what would you tell that Barbara?

Barbara: I would probably tell her that, that she is a writer because she didn't think she was. 

Lorien: She sure is a writer. Yes, she is. So good. Thank you so much, Barbara, for agreeing to be on our show and talking about everything you know.

Barbara: Oh, man. No, it's been a pleasure. 

Meg: Thanks again to Barbara for joining us on the show. If you're looking for more support, make sure to check out our Facebook group. And we've got a brand new site called TSL Workshops that we'd love to see you at. Tell us about your stories directly. Let us help you more directly.

Jeff: I'll also link it in the description below. So for anyone who's listening, click it and you'll be taken right there. 

Lorien: Click it. Do it. Click it. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.