230 | Sing Sing Writer Clint Bentley: Creating Character Arcs Based On Real Lives

Clint Bentley, our guest on today's show, and his filmmaking partner Greg Kwedar, co-write and co-produce every feature film project they tackle, with one of them taking on the role of director. This wildly unique and successful partnership has led to one of the year's most beloved movies, "Sing Sing."

Today, Clint unpacks how he and Greg decided to tackle the project, how they involved the real life creators behind the program that inspired the movie, and - yes, this is true - how they managed to pay everyone on set the exact same day rate.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life, I'm Meg LeFauve. Lorien cannot join us today, but I am thrilled to be welcoming Clint Bentley, co-writer of Sing Sing to the show. Sing Sing follows a group of formerly incarcerated men staging a play while their creative leader played by Coleman Domingo in the movie, faces a life altering clemency hearing.

It's based on the actual program, Rehabilitation Through the Arts, developed in New York's Sing Sing Correctional Facility, with many of the program's formerly incarcerated alumni making up the cast of the film. Sing Sing is one of 2024's most celebrated films, and also one of my personal favorites of the year, with Clint and his filmmaking partner Greg Cuidar having already been nominated for and won a number of industry awards for their screenplay.

In addition to their work as creatives, Clint and Greg are passionate about equitable art. Producing with SingSing financed in a revolutionary way. Paying everyone on the set the same day rate for their work from Coleman Domingo to the set PAs. They're using this model in their recently launched production company, Ethos, which plans to produce features in this same way.

Welcome to the show. 

Clint: Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. 

Meg: I'm a huge fan of your movie. One of my favorites of the year. 

Clint: Thank you. 

Meg: So profound and well done and so many things, which I can't wait. So I just can't wait to get in and talk to you about it. I have so many questions as a writer to write.

Clint: Hopefully I have answers. Yeah. 

Meg: No, you do. Come on. Come on. But let's first start with what we do, which is Adventures in Screenwriting, or How Was Your Week. I know that you're a listener, so I don't even have to go first. You can go first. How was your week? 

Clint: My week was good. I'm actually in the edit on a new film right now that I wrote with with my long time screenwriting partner, Greg Cuidar.

Who we we've written. Now we've written many scripts together, but most of them just end up being PDFs on your computer that don't get made, but but we've made, yeah, but we're on our, this will be our our fourth film. I think that we've written together now called train dreams. And so I'm in the edit on that.

I'm in the sound mix actually on that now, this week. And and it's wild just to like, speaking as a, as a screenwriter in this process of, of, of watching something that you've like, you spent so many hours writing it and rewriting it and before you ever shoot it. And then you, you know, you hear it so many times in the, in production and then in the edit.

And and if you're lucky, it will kind of still feel alive to you. And this one for the most part is, is still feeling alive. So I'm very grateful for that. 

Meg: I can't wait to talk to you about that in terms of Being a writer director, though on Sing Sing you were, you were, I'm not going to say only a writer because that's pejorative.

You were, you, you were the writer as your sole job on this one. So I can't really speak to you about that. Like how you, what is the plan? Do you guys trade? Who got, like how, what's the, because I think you, As I've mentioned in the intro, you've also started a new company called Ethos. So yes, I don't normally start the other direction, but I just curious.

Let's just start with the end and then we'll go back to things. Okay. What's happening? So how do you, how do you guys do this? 

Clint: You know, we Greg and I've been working together now for 14 years, at least I think. And it's something that we just started writing together on we were both Writers on our own and writing our own things.

And then we started writing together on the film that became our first film that we made together, which Greg directed which was trans PECOS. And and really we just like we found that for the two of us, we each had very specific strengths of our individually and those strengths balance each other out.

We balance each other's weaknesses out with our strengths. And and that was something that we that really like. We really learned how to become screenwriters on Transpacos of just like writing it over and over and over again. We would write that, we did like five page one rewrites on that script of just partly, it was like trying to find a way to write something that we could actually make with.

No money. You've got a lot of big dreams when you're writing your first film. Like, I'm going to get five million bucks for this thing. And you find out very quickly, that's not going to happen. And so we kept writing it kind of like, smaller and smaller in terms of in terms of what the production would cost, but trying to not lose the ambition and the scope of it.

If that makes sense. 

Meg: It does. And then forward. Are you guys like, how do you balance who gets to go next? I mean, because you know, there's only so much time in a day. There's only so many financiers in the world. Are you literally taking turns or is it how do you decide who gets to direct? 

Clint: Yeah, it's a good question.

It's been just a very organic process for us where we It hasn't it's kind of naturally worked out because of production timelines that we've with that we've flip flopped of you know One of us will direct a movie and then and then the next one directs. And I think it's just been, it's not been anything that we've like nailed down, but it's just kind of naturally happened because like any writers, like we're working on four or five things at once and you're trying to push a few balls forward at the same time.

And then, you know, while one person is in edit on their film, the other person is getting the next one off the ground. Like right now I'm in, I'm, as I said, I'm in the sound mix on this film that I directed back in the spring. Okay. And and we're doing a pass on kind of a final pass on the next film that Greg will direct.

And so it just kind of naturally like works out so far. Yeah, 

Meg: great. It's, it's aspirational. I will say it's it's amazing. So are you funded by a single financier or every time you guys are ready to have your movie, okay. It's time to go. We're ready to go. You have to go out and find the financing. 

Clint: Yeah, no, it's a good question.

We're not, we don't have like a single benefactor. Historically that, you know, unless, unless something happens between now and when the show comes out, 

Meg: Listen all you benefactors out there. 

Clint: Yeah, please drop my number in the comments. No, we, you know, on our first on, on Transpacos and Jockey we had just a collection of private investors, many of whom had never invested in film before from Texas where, where Greg and I both live that we, we just kind of like cobbled the money together over the years and, and had some really.

amazing partners who went with us from film to film. And then on Sing Sing, that was our first time working with a more traditional financier with, with Black Bear and Teddy Schwartzman and his team over there. And they were just such fantastic partners that we ended up working with them again on Train Dreams, which is the one that I'm in post on And so it's just like, You know, it's, I don't know 

Meg: Finding those producing partners is such a key thing, especially for writer directors, but even for writers, like, to find the person who understands you as a filmmaker, your voice, your creative vision, and can help protect it and challenge it when it needs to be challenged, I just think it's, it's a, it's something that writers don't often think about, or writer directors, how key that relationship is.

Clint: I was going to say the same thing of, of adding to like your comment there about challenging it when it needs a challenge, you need somebody who's going to believe in your vision for a film. And this is getting into more of the directing side maybe, but, but, but it lands much more, but just as much in the, in the writing side as well, like, especially when you've written something you're going to direct, you need somebody who believes in that and sees the same film that you want to make.

And you're not. Rowing in different directions. But at the same time, you, you hopefully get somebody who not only sees that, but it's also going to make what you want to make better and it's going to challenge you in ways. And I think that going back to your question earlier about Greg and I working together, that's something that we cultivated amongst the two of us of needing to write together.

And needing to write, always there was one of us who was going to direct it on each project. There was never a question when we were writing it of maybe this person or maybe that person's going to direct it. We always knew it would either be a Greg film or a Clint film as we're writing it. And then that person, you know, whoever's not directing it, takes more of a backseat creatively.

In a good way, I think. And for both of us, like, setting your ego aside and stepping back. And saying, you know, I'm, I don't, I wouldn't necessarily do it this way. I wouldn't write the scene this way, but this is your film. And let's, let's do that. It's a really nice process. But then on the flip side, what it does is if you're the one directing, you, you don't just get the passive, like, well, I'm just going to write this because I like it, like every.

You have to be able to defend everything and believe in everything that you're putting in there. And I think that sets us up well, we've always been very open in terms of getting notes with, with our, our actors and our crews and our financiers and investors. 

Meg: Is there any moment, even if I think it's great, cause my husband and I are writing together and we do the same thing.

Who's leading this one? Right? Because we're doing things like it just helps, right? With that collaboration. But are there moments where you just really both disagree with each other, but then I guess director wins, right? Like, how do you build conflict? 

Clint: It's a good question and it's something we've gotten better about as we've gotten as we've been writing together longer We're like an old married couple now when it comes to this if you just know kind of you know The other person's personality.

I think it's been something that as we've gone along One thing that's a really big help in that process is just if you're arguing about something and you cannot come to an agreement on it One of the best things you can do is just set it aside until tomorrow. Just like put it aside, stop arguing, know you're at an impasse, sleep on it and come back to it and usually you have the answer.

But the big, the other thing that we've found and I've taken this and Greg has as well into our work as directors is like if you're at an impulse or if you're at an impasse and A doesn't work for one person and B doesn't work for the other. There's usually a third answer that's better than both of those.

It's usually not either answer that you're arguing for. And I've, I've like, I mean, I'm, I'm encountering that now in this edit that there are so many times where like, when I'm really at odds with somebody, usually there's something else that we're not seeing that answers the question. 

Meg: I feel that's true, even of executives or producers or other people giving you notes that if you really, if the answer is really feels Like, you're at, you cannot come together, there's probably a third, and I love that.

And I, it can even be true of what's inside, of the pieces inside of you that are arguing over something. Which I guess I'll just segue there into my week, and just say very quickly, because I'd much rather talk to you than hear about my week Academy run, super fun, you know, awards run, you're in it too, I'm sure it's slightly tiring, but only because, It's really, really fun, but it's a lot of socializing for writers who like to be in a room by themselves.

So I'm having fun. But I also, I guess the thing that was relevant to me in terms of writing, and maybe even today, you'll tell me. So, you know, every once in a while I go back to therapy, need a tune up, shit's happening, whatever. And this time I decided to try a new type of therapy, which is called family systems.

Thanks for watching! And I'm no expert on this, I'm just starting, but it's basically for those who don't, have never heard of it, it's the, it's a theory of therapy where the, you have many, many pieces of yourself inside. 

And they could be different ages, they could hold different memories they could be stuck in time, someplace.

And that every so we're in these interactions. You're actually have different parts of you are interacting with different parts of the other person. Totally. 

Clint: Totally. 

Meg: I'm finding it incredibly profound. Some people have asked me about this in terms of inside out too. And I'm like, no, I never heard about it until like a month ago when I started, but I'm finding it just an incredibly profound experience.

You know, stuff like, I know I have this Viking in me, like there's a certain point where I'm going to get mad and I'm not going to stop. Like, it's very rare, but when he comes out swinging his club, it's like not a good thing. It's not funny. And my therapist said to me, how old is the Viking? And I was like, wait, what?

And she goes, how old is he? And in my mind, because I'm an, you know, we're imaginative people. Of course, how old is the Viking? It's a man, this big man. And I was like, oh crap, he's eight years old. 

He's just a kid. 

Clint: He's got big feelings though. 

Meg: He's got big feelings. And it's so, I think it's so profound to know yourself that well and to go back and that you don't have to get involved in everybody's drama because you've got your own Things to work out and deal with inside.

I can't explain it, but I'm finding it very profound and I'm actually really interested to see how it will impact my writing. 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: I wonder if as writers, There's a piece of us that really wants something to be in the story, because it's so meaningful to that piece of you. But the truth is, it doesn't really belong in the story, and it just, it's getting the stimulus of, I have a chance to talk, I have a chance to talk, I have a chance to be noticed and recognized by you, writer, so I'm gonna talk.

And, but you really then have to get this kind of higher, 30, 000 we call here, but I in this therapy system. It's kind of like that higher self 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: You say I hear you. I hear you that you want this in the story and it's very powerful But it we're not going to go in this one. You know, I mean like sometimes I think i'm actually talking to the different Myself about the writing.

I don't know. It's just i'm finding it fascinating. I just know... 

Clint: It's totally true It's that thing and I think it's super helpful You not to make this too much of a therapy thing, but, but it's super helpful on that side of like us as people. And there, there are these, I'm going to butcher the phrasing of it.

But there, there's this concept in, in Buddhism of like, you know, divorcing yourself from your feelings and your thoughts and knowing that you are not your feelings and your thoughts all the time. And, and, and that gives you a bit of leeway. Whether it's I'm really pissed off right now and I'm really feeling angry or I'm really feeling small or I'm or I'm having a lot of anxiety just stepping back and not being so taken with that and knowing that like You can, you can separate yourself from those feelings a bit and then you can ask, okay, what is this trying to tell me?

Meg: Because there's a difference between shoving something down or pretending it's not there with that higher or saying, you know what? I hear you. And you're actually You're not a piece of you. You are not wrong, but now is not the time to deal with that. Like that. So let's just take a beat on that. Let's actually listen to it. Cause it's trying to tell you something, which is in Inside Out 2, but that was just intuitive.

I didn't have this system thing. I'm just finding. And which leads me back to your movie, because that's why we're here and what I want to talk about. Truly. It is one of my favorites of the year. So you have many voices in this process because you had such a unique process and I just want to talk about it.

First, I just need a little bit of context from you, the creator, one of the co creators, shall we say? 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: Is, would you say it's a true story? It's a story based on true events. It's a fictional story inspired by true events, but with some real people. 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: Frame here so that our audience can kind of enter into what this is.

Clint: The answer is yes to all of it. It was very, you know, it's very interesting the farther we got into it. And I'll give some of the like nuts and bolts of it, but, but like the more we got into it and, and it, it actually, this mindset revealed a really interesting creative process as well, that the more we kind of let go of trying to define it, the, the more it became what it needed to be.

And so I'll say this of like, it's, you know, the movie tells the story of one production of a play inside of Sing Sing prison, one of the most notorious maximum security prisons in the world, from casting to opening night, and it tells that story. And that play actually happened. Breaking the Mummy's Code actually is a play.

This actually happened. Greg came across this story in an Esquire article that, that kind of outlined this program and, and, and outlined this, this particular production. And and we didn't change anything about anything that happens in the movie, like anything from breaking the mummy's code, the real play as crazy as it is.

We didn't change any of that. Those lines are actually from the play. Now, now, peeling back the layers a bit Divine Eye who, who is played, like, in the movie by Clarence Macklin, who's also Divine Eye, plays a version of himself, and Divine G, who's played by Coleman Domingo, their friendship is a real one and their friendship actually did develop that way.

Now, that's more of the based on a true story because in order to make the film work as a story like there, the, the way that their friendship developed, 

Meg: Yeah, it's like the main relationship. 

Clint: But I asked the main relationship, it all developed that way. Just not in that timeline and maybe not in that order, but like that, that was all done and that was done in very close contact and in concert with.

the two divines and in telling their story. And then and, and so it's a bit like, then there's the other aspect, which is like, we brought in men into the film who were actually in the program in rehabilitation through the arts. And a lot of them were in this play and played the characters in the play that they're playing in the movie.

Just, you know, 15 years ago now, whatever it was, maybe almost 20 years ago. And now they're out and they, and they, they've returned home and, but they're playing versions of themselves. And some of the stuff that they're doing is just we would set up moments within the film that they would just be opportunities for something to happen.

And really on the like, there's one in particular where it's a theater group It's a what do you call it? Sorry, I'm going to walk that back. It's a theater exercise that the group does and it's called perfect place. And what you do is you close your eyes, you go to your perfect place. And then when you open them, you describe that perfect place.

And it's, it's a way to get centered before you start an exercise. And all, all we wrote in the scripts was it was like two sentences. And it was just the men do the perfect place exercise, you know, and reflect on it afterwards. And and then yet that becomes like a six or seven minute scene and is, it is a very like profound scene in the movie.

So it was very much this, like, it is based on a true story. I think that's probably the closest approximation to what you would say, but it also like doesn't encapsulate everything that came into it. 

Meg: I love that. And it is a very powerful scene. And of course, you know, part of me as the writer's like, and you got lucky that it's powerful because it's improv.

You never know. But also because the director, your partner and you, I'm sure created a safe space and creative space for these men to be so honest and vulnerable. And, and they're very, and they were very brave and they're in so many aspects of the film. Now, you did break the story with Divine G and Divine Eye.

Can you talk about that process of just getting that story together with them who, you know, often we, we get a lot of questions about telling real life stories and, you know, how much can you make up and for you, they're breaking the story with you. So I'm fascinated by what that process was. 

Clint: Yeah, and it was really like, it was really super helpful that they are both themselves, great storytellers Divine Eye, Clarence Macklin.

He's been acting for a long time. He's been breaking down characters for, you know, many, many years. Starting with his work in RTA, which, which he started in Sing Sing. And so, that we had that benefit. And then with John Whitfield, Divine G he is a PEN America winning writer. He's written more plays than I can count.

He's written several novels. He's, he's an incredible storyteller in his own right. And so it actually made it super easy where we talked to them early on and, and it only felt right. of not only if we're going to use this movie to tell their story as individuals and, and the story of their friendship, but also if they're going to be so intimately involved with it in terms of, you know, not only helping structure it, but also, you know, Clarence playing a version of himself and many of them in playing versions of themselves.

It only felt natural and right that they should have a voice in the room in cracking the story and, and, and creating that story. And it was just amazing. You know, they just understood the, the, the, the interplay that needed to happen between, okay, we need this to be true to what you all experienced, both as individuals and together in the, in the forming of your friendship and the solidifying of your friendship.

But then also this has to function. As a story, and the screenplay has to hit certain beats in order to function because there's so many things going on. There's a friendship that's the way Coming together and falling apart and coming back together. There's one man who is the, the center of this program, who is who's really like losing his faith in the system as it's going forward.

There's another man who's gaining his faith in the system and, and it's finding his deeper self. There's also a play that's coming together. If I didn't already say that there, there's just so many things like. That, that we were trying to balance with also like, we also didn't want to make a 300 page script, you know, and you're also trying to balance these other personalities that you want to that you want to build into the movie because you could have made a movie about any of these men.

They're also, they all have such profound stories and, and you're just getting shades of each of them. And so all that to say, like, it was an incredible relationship working with. Clarence and John just because they're such great storytellers and they got it and they, they helped elevate it at every step of the way.

Meg: Did you need to do your own separate research? They, they lived... 

Clint: Right, right, right. 

Meg: And I understand it's not a direct true story, but they lived so much of it. 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: Did you separately do your own research or did you just, did you interview the men who were going to be coming in as well in terms of the other characters?

How did you go about that? And when did. When does that research and their true story and their, but at some point it also has to become yours as a writer. 

Clint: Totally. And that's something that you have... 

Meg: And you have a director and it has to become his. 

Clint: Yes, absolutely. 

Meg: So how do you manage all that? 

Clint: I mean, one is time we, we worked on that script for about six and a half years before we started filming it.

And so that naturally takes care of itself. But also like Greg and I both. As filmmakers individually and together, we both come from documentary backgrounds and, and I come from a journalism background before working in film and research is just so important to us. Even if you're writing something from your own life, I just wrote a script from that's from my own past.

And the time I spent researching, talking to my siblings and stuff like that felt like I was excavating somebody else's story. But with this one, Greg and I spent a lot of time I guess, in the way we think about it, of like, earning our right to tell the story. And a large part of that was Interviewing a bunch of men, meeting the real man, meeting the real Brent Buell.

And, and, and he helped us so much in, in figuring out how to tell the story. Greg and I went inside with the help of rehabilitation through the arts the program, we went inside and taught acting classes inside of a maximum security prison so we could participate in the program and see what that would actually felt like.

And. And just over the years, just like, you know, reading everything you can, but talking to as many people experiencing what you can so that you just can feel it outside of knowing things about it. You know, and that that's being able to feel something is just as important, whatever the story you're telling as whatever facts, you know, about it.

And, and then, you know, by the time I think we did. We did three or four page one rewrites on this one, on Sing Sing, and it was only at the very end that we, that we landed on this being the storyline of this friendship. We had very different storylines for this movie along the way, and so by the time we got to the point where we said, Okay, let's let's But Greg had that idea of like, centering it on this friendship and once we decided to go down that path, we, we already felt like we knew the world so much and then just having Clarence and John in the process alongside of us just brought to life and in such a big way.

Meg: The friendship is so powerful and I thought you both did as writers and as a director You know, such a powerful way of telling the story. You know, when I saw it at the beginning when Divine Eye comes in, Clarence Macklin, first of all, Clarence Macklin, 

Clint: He's incredible, 

Meg: Stunning. I just couldn't take my eyes off of him.

He is such an amazing actor, not to diminish in any way. Coleman Domingo because he is also an incredible actor. But I knew Coleman Domingo was an incredible. Everybody knows. I was all ready for it. I was just, you know, so excited, but then suddenly to, you know, it felt like for me, because I didn't know divine, I like this discovery of this actor.

It was, I honestly think stunning. And I so love that relationship. And at the beginning, what I was trying to say is. There's, and maybe this is just me, but there, there seemed to be some tension around the relationship even starting, right? And I love the writing, I love the storytelling that you allow us to be uncomfortable about it at first.

You allow us to not know, is this a good thing? It doesn't maybe, right now, it kept turning. It kept turning and it so, so held my interest in the, so many things could get your interest in this movie. So many, but really to let that be the center, it was such a highly skilled, skilled storytelling. Because you would leave the relationship sometimes because there's other wonderful relationships like with Mike Mike and but always that that key relationship just kept turning and became its own plot the relation for me.

I don't know how you saw it, but for me that relationship. Yes, the plot is getting the show off the ground, of course, but really, for me, the plot is that relationship and how it's turning. And then you have the plot, too, of of Coleman's character, Divine G, you know, going up for parole. 

Clint: Trying to get, yeah, trying to get going through his clemency hearing and yeah, it's, it's that, I mean, it's a good question because it's always that, And I'm, I'm, I can speak for Greg here as well.

We're still figuring it out of like, how do you, how do you not only differentiate plot and story, but also let them interact deeply with each other. Right. And so like, yes, the plot is like, we're going to get this play off the ground and this guy's going to come in and he's going to go out, but the story is the story of this friendship.

Right. And how that develops and how that changes these people over time. And I'm, I'm glad you brought that up of the beginning because it was a, it was something where. It's kind of a risk in the writing of it and then for Greg and the filming of it and then, and then in the editing of it when we're all in that, in that space.

 You, you, I think leaning into that, the nuance of the situation of without spoiling it for anybody, you're trying to show, especially with Clarence's character with Divine Eye, you're trying to show, Why he needs this program and that he is a guy who potentially if he comes in can upset this program and you want to show something as it is he shakes down this guy in the yard and takes advantage of him and you're trying to get all of these things across at once of like, oh wow, that's really impressive.

But also I'm really uncomfortable by that. He just took advantage of somebody, but also he's super charming, but also he's kind of scary, but also he's just acting. So maybe he's not that scary. Just all of those things that you're trying to. And, and also I think that's the beauty of when you've got just amazing actors and that's something that with, with, with screenwriting, when you get lucky is you can give the opportunity for something like that.

And then all the nuance that Clarence is doing in those scenes, and then all the nuance that Coleman is doing in those scenes, and Sean San José as Mike Mike also, being like, this is not a good idea at all, and just watching those things interplay off of each other, then it kind of, It takes care of itself if you just give them the opportunity to, to make something really, really...

Meg: I mean, as a writer, but as a writer, you have to give them the stuff to work with, because you, I always find as a writer, you can't depend on getting a great actor, you just can't, because You hope you get a great actor.

You're depending on it, especially for you guys as the directors, you might have more impact on that and ability in terms of casting. But I found the writing so subtle and yet so powerful. You really were not afraid of subtext and that you were not afraid that the audience isn't going to get this subtext.

You just, you let it cook and and come together and then flow apart again. And I found it riveting. To the point that when I had to pause, because I was like, this is starting to get so emotional for me. 

When this actually goes south, I'm going to be upset. And yet, I was so tense. And yet, there's no big plot happening.

But just the skill of writing characters to bring me in. And I think a lot of times, and I'm just realizing this with our emerging writers, And I don't, I'd love your view on this, except we, on the show, we talk about lava. We talk about leaning into those places within ourselves that feel vulnerable, that feel fiery, that feel, you know, comfortable.

And so you as a writer, obviously you're having to do that too. And certainly these men are in situations that it's right on the surface sometimes, right? So I'm interested, but the lava is not the plot. It didn't. I hope this makes 

Clint: No, totally. And and this also goes back...

Meg: And the people are mixing it up. They're mixing it up. They're thinking the lava is the plot. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. And for you, you have the stage play. You have, I apologize for my earlier mistake. You have the clemency hearing. 

Clint: Oh no, that's okay. 

Meg: There's other things moving so that, and then you have the relationship, which is moving as its own plot.

And then the lava's under all of that, moving up through it. 

Clint: No, if you've got a, it's a good question. It's something like that. It's, it's really hard. It's hard enough to learn. It's even harder to learn how to do it. And I'm still there trying to figure out how to do it. Well, of, you know, especially in film, you have the added benefit of.

We're going to watch all of this, right? And so there's two things that I want to say. One goes back to something in terms of Lava. One goes back to something you were talking about earlier with, with all these voices inside of us. And what we have found is it's sometimes very good and necessary to overwrite the script.

Overwrite the scene. Overwrite the character arc. And there are scenes in this, there are entire scenes that we shot for this film, that the film doesn't need it in the end, but the characters, the actors need it to build their characters. And, and they need, you need this, you need to write out this scene with a monologue about John Whitfield's brother who died when he was very young and how that affected him.

That's, that never makes it into the final film, but it helps. Just give everybody the subtext of what's going on here. And I remember on our first film on Transpecos, when I finally learned this, if we had this whole dialogue scene in the truck, in a truck between these two characters, and it's one trying to beg the other one not to go to this place, and then we cut all of it out and just left one line and a bunch of looks between them.

And then the actor gets out of the truck and it became so much more alive than everything we had written. And I was like, Oh, wow, that's amazing. And the lava part is really important because if you're thinking about this is not our movie at all, but just like a random example of like, if somebody is getting ready to rob a bank or whatever, and they're about to walk in the door, the action is amazing.

That they make the decision to open the door and step in with the gun or whatever. That's not the interesting part. The interesting part is all, as you said, lava. That's them standing on the street or in the car out front before they ever walk in when they're wrestling with, should I really do this or not?

That's the part that gets us going as viewers. 

Meg: You still have to have, I want to rob the bank and the first step is open the door because that's the trail that our minds are following in terms of a story. A lot of emerging writers are so much deep into their lava that they think the lava is the plot.

And I'm like, Oh, yeah. It's everything is metaphor. So let me ask you this. 

Clint: Okay, your characters have to do something at the end of the line. 

Meg: Or and what they're doing is metaphor for that internal, right? 

Clint: Yeah, totally. 

Meg: It's all starting to externalize into what a bank will give you. And but what sorry, what robbing a bank will give you?

Clint: Yes. 

Meg: And I want to ask you a question. And again, we can cut anything. What was your personal lava in this movie? 

Clint: I think a big part of it you know, there's a lot and, and it's, it's funny to talk about a movie that is based on other people's lives and things, but I, I don't think you can get to that truth of what feels very true without putting your own lava in there to use this phrase.

And a big part of that is just. You know, feelings of inadequacy and feelings of imposter syndrome and feeling like you're not good enough wanting to be a part of a group but Also wanting to be an individual and there's a lot that Divine G goes through with that feeling like you need things very deeply inside but not having the courage or Or whatever you need to ask people for help that that's a big one and then greg and i've talked about this a lot of just like You And that like, we're very close friends and family by this point, as long as we've known each other and, and been friends and our families hang out, but then also we're working partners and, and, and we're in a working relationship, but then also we're.

We have our own careers as directors that we're each trying to nurture and, and just all of that, of like trying to balance all of that together and take care of each other while also taking care of ourselves. All of that got put in there, just all of that stuff...

Meg: It's all in the movie. And it's why I think the movie feels so authentic.

Yes, of course, because of the men that you've cast and the research, but there's a deeper authenticity, even pulsing beneath that in terms of its construction and the writing and the directing. And just I can feel it. I can feel it all. How beautiful. In a way, still personal to you as it has to be. It has to be personal to us when we make it.

So one scene that of course is incredibly powerful is the clemency hearing. 

Clint: Yeah. 

Meg: And can you just talk a little bit about writing it? Did it change on the day what the actor brought to it? Because it feels like one of those scenes that may be shot longer than it is because it's so rich in such a simple, not simplistic, but it's so rich in every line. I'd love to hear about that particular scene. 

Clint: Yeah, that scene is a special one. And I'll say with all of this, because part of the process in making a film. You write it and then we find for in every film that we've done so far, for the most part, there's a lot of rewriting in production while you're working with actors and you bring actors on and then a big part of our process, I want to call out Parker Laramie, who's edited our last two films who's another storyteller in this process who helps us refine these things and getting back to this scene, like you're exactly right, like it was a bit longer and, and you find that, like, You know, less is needed in, in a scene like that because there is so much subtext and sometimes the silence is, is more important.

But that one was an interesting one because Greg and I were struggling with how to write that. And I remember Greg called John Whitfield, Divine, Divine G, and said, Hey, we're, we're trying to write this. moment. And and I'm, I'm going to look at some transcripts of, of some Pearl hearings that I found online.

And John said, yeah, you can do that. Or I can send you mine. And he sent us his, and a lot of. A lot of what's there was pulled from his hearing. You know, there's, there's a lot that that you have to shape it because it's a much longer hearing than, than what ends up on the, on the screen. But a lot of it was pulled a lot of vernacular that you would like it.

You could never make up like the vernacular that they use and, and the way they ask questions. And it's clear they're asking something else. The big part of it though, that just floored us. And it's the line that like, defines that scene so well is, is the the commissioner asking, yeah, are you acting in this, in this moment?

That's directly pulled from the transcripts of his clemency hearing. 

Meg: I was so afraid you were going to tell me that. 

Clint: And it's so, it, when we read it, it did the same thing to us, where it just floored us, and then and it just like, it was better than anything you could ever come up with, right? We could have never come up with that and, and I think if we had even, it would have felt like too on the nose, but seeing it there, like it just was perfect as an encapsulation of everything that he was struggling against, and, and then on the day, you know, I think the other thing in terms of subtext, Greg, you know, I was watching on the monitor as Greg was directing Coleman through this and, and she asks him that Sharon Washington, the amazing actress asks him, are you acting in this hearing right now?

And his first take was like, we had written, you know, he's like stumbling through it. I'm like, no, no, no, of course not. Blah, blah, blah. And then Greg gave him the note, something to the effect of just like, it's over. Like whenever you hear that, you know, it's over. It's not going anywhere else. And then, and it's on a closeup of Coleman and he just does everything on his face, and you just see it all, and no words could ever encapsulate what he does there. So yeah, that's it. 

Meg: Amazing moment, amazing acting, just stunning. And yet, he says, which I thought was so profound for the movie and the themes that you guys are building. He said, "But that's not what acting is."

Like, she's accusing him of being a liar actor, and he's trying to say, acting is about being truthful. And he doesn't even get the word truth out, but you know what he's talking about, because you've, which I love also about this story, because we've experienced all this stuff with him. He doesn't even have to say that word, and you get it, because you're so deeply in his emotional point of view.

Clint: Yes. 

Meg: I just thought that was that line floored me. Like there's the whole movie, like...

Clint: And that's something. Absolutely. That's something that came from our research and just talking to these men of, and the profound experience that they have of going through the work of building characters, and, and going back to what you were talking about in the beginning of the show.

Of therapy that we all do, but not a lot of people get access to do it because they're not given the opportunity at school or they're told they're not an artist or whatever. And just hearing these men's stories. that they played a character and then for the first time they actually understood what the victim of their crime had gone through, you know, or what their mother had gone through or something like that.

Because they got into somebody else's mind and somebody else's soul in a way they'd never been given the opportunity to in school before that. And anything that, that in their younger life, that if they'd had that experience, their life probably would have taken a much different path. 

Meg: Oh, if we taught empathy in school instead of calculus or whatever.

I know calculus. Don't don't write me letters. Okay. 

Clint: Oh, I use calculus all the time. Don't you? 

Meg: Every day. So, let's talk a little bit about, I mean, I want to talk about Mike Mike too though, because I want, I only have so much time, but I, Mike, Mike, oh my God. 

Clint: We can run quickly through Mike Mike. Yeah. He's worth mentioning. 

Meg: I loved his character. I loved the actor. 

Clint: Yeah. Sean San José is amazing. He's a, he's a rich stage actor out of the San Francisco scene, runs the magic theater out in San Fran. 

Meg: Now, and was there a Mike Mike? Did, did... 

Clint: He was a bit of an amalgamation character. Divine G had a very close friend who, who played that role for him. But Mike, Mike was a bit of an amalgamation character. That is just like somebody that you need who, you know, I think like also to bring out more of, of Divine G of this person is his. Like kind of his rock and his old friend. And that's something that Greg and I've talked about a few times in the process of this, that we kind of realized through the process of just the varieties of friendship, there's something very beautiful and wonderful about a new friend who comes in and awakens things inside of you that you didn't know about yourself.

But then there's also something incredible and very comforting about that old friend who you've known for ten to fifteen years.. 

Meg: And he kind of became, and I'm not saying this was intentional, but I loved that he became almost like the voice in Divine G's head, you know? Like, you shouldn't put that guy in here! Why would you put that guy in here?!

Or, you know, you're not ready for this! Hearing you're not ready, right? You can ask questions like all of that. And yet so joyous to like, not just, but let's go. Always bringing that Divine G's character to joy. Right. And so to lose him was a big loss. It was like a piece of himself. Yes. I thought it was incredibly profound use of relationship.

We talk a lot about the show, but the different kinds of relationships in a movie and definitely, you know, with Clarence, that is the main relationship that is spining. That's the story. It's starting to create drama. It's turning right. It's where a lot of the profound learning and transformation comes.

Clint: Yes. 

Meg: But Mike Mike is an incredibly important, you know, relationship to knowing Divine G, to understanding the depth of the story, to framing Clarence, you know. I just thought it's a really, really beautiful example of different kinds of relationships in a movie for our writing, our writers here. I want to have a chance though to talk to you too about the production in terms of well, but you guys also didn't put, anyways, I'm not going to say that because that just got, I have so many questions, but I'm like, okay, I can't ask that one.

I have to go to other things. Okay you guys paid everybody the same, including your star. So can you just tell me a little bit about what, how did you guys reach that decision? What was that about for you guys? 

Clint: We, this is something that we started on Jockey and then developed into a system on that we brought into Sing Sing and we hope to bring on to many films in the future.

But basically when we got, when we started making Jockey, we found ourselves in this place where we were not going to get very much money at all to make this, to make that movie. Nobody in the industry wanted to make it. And. We found ourselves in the place that so many independent filmmakers find themselves in, which is like, okay, how can we make this for as little as possible?

Right. And, but we didn't want to cheapen the film, you know, you still want it to feel the scale and feel big. And you also, I think we were also looking at things that we felt were unfair about our own industry, about the independent film space. And, And so we just started answering questions within that.

And you know, big part of that was, okay, if everybody's going to sacrifice for this movie, everybody needs to sacrifice for it. Everybody needs to sacrifice on the same and be on the same playing field. And that came to, okay, we're going to, we're all going to get paid the same. And we're not going to all get paid the same, but this star is going to have a $50, 000 side deal.

It's like, everybody's going to get paid the same and you either sign up for that or not. And then we all know where each other are at, because that there's a big amount of distrust on a lot of indie film, film sets in general, but independent film sets where you don't know if the person next to you held their ground and got a little bit more money or got some equity or something like that, the other thing we wanted to do was we wanted making an independent film is such a risk and people are taking time away from their lives, taking time away from family, taking time away from jobs where they could get paid more money for a tied commercial or whatever. But then a lot of times only like five or six people participate in the upside of that, if it actually makes money. And so we wanted to recognize the sacrifice that everybody was working by sharing the back end equity with everybody.

And doing that in a standardized way where it wasn't, okay, well you've made five films so you get this much. You've only made one film so you get less equity. It's just, We tied it to time. If you work longer on the film, you get more equity. If you work less time, you get less equity, but everybody gets a little piece who, who participates in it, who works the minimum amount.

And and then also splitting money off the top, which is a big thing we did on jockey and, and, and we, we pulled that into Sing Sing in a different way, but, but finding a way to putting in. Putting in mechanisms where even if the film never went into profit, which a lot of independent films never do, that still everybody would get a little bit of something.

Meg: That's amazing. Now I, my producer hat says to get an actor of Coleman's level who's going to be willing to do that, you better have a part that he can get nominated for an Academy Award level part, because, I mean, he's, he could do so many things, but this part is, you know, so stunning for him.

Clint: Yeah. You've got to do that. And you've got to just think about, I think a thing we think about a lot and it, it goes towards, and this is maybe towards the producing hat, but also towards the writing hat of like thinking about giving somebody an opportunity to do something they haven't done before.

Haven't done in a long time. Right. Giving them multiple bottom lines for something, whether that's an investor looking to invest in your film or whether that's an actor, or if you're a screenwriter trying to attach a director. Or find a producer, whatever it is, finding that there's not just one reason they do something.

And with Coleman, yes, there was a lot in this role and in this story that he saw that he wanted to participate in, and I think saw the possibilities of that. But then also, He along with his partner both in life and, and producing partner Raul wanted, they, they have a production company. They were, that they had already done some projects under, but they were trying to do more.

And so like, we brought them on as producers and really with Coleman said, listen, you're not just an actor. Like. saying lines, help us tell the story, help build the story with us, help build the production and, and him signing on, he signed on immediately to this to this equity model. We didn't, there, there needed no, there needed to be no big like convincing to him.

He got it immediately and loved it. And, and then once you have the number one on the call sheet, sign onto it, then The rest just falls into place. I'm sure there was a big conversation with his agent. His agent was actually great about it. I will say, but we have had without 

Meg: We don't need to put this part in the show! 

Clint: This can end up on the show because I think it's this part can, if you want it to, because I think it helps as, as writers, especially, but as, as independent filmmakers, we always go around like asking for favors of things and you know, the benefit of this one, we didn't, we actually didn't have that hard of a time on Sing Sing convincing agents because one Coleman was on board and once him and his agent were on board, then then everybody else kind of got in into it very quickly.

And our financier with Black Bear, which I talked about earlier, they were, they were on board with it. And saw the value of it on Jockey was much more difficult because we didn't have anything to point to. We couldn't even say we've got another film to point to with Sing Sing. We could point to Jockey and say, look, we did this.

Here's how it works, blah, blah, blah. With Jockey, we had a really hard time. And not all of the agents, but, but with some of the agents we had a very, very difficult time and you have to get to the point where you have to commit to it and see the value of it, even at the expense of possibly losing that person who you really want to be in the movie.

And if you believe in it that much, which we did, and we almost lost somebody down to the, like the last moment. But if you come to it with that much conviction, then it'll take care of itself. 

Meg: I love that. And you'll have the people on set who want to be there and are invested. 

Clint: So you'll have the people who are there for the right reasons. Exactly. Yeah. 

Meg: So we have a couple of questions we're asking all of our guests, not the final three, but we're just curious. On the page when you're writing what, how do you think about character introductions? 

Clint: Oh man, that's a great question. You want it to be great, right? You got to think about like, and that's, that's such a soft term and I know that, but like, I'll get a little bit more specific.

You want it to be great. You want to get your character at least like, You want the audience to understand who this person is in the starting place immediately, but that you almost have to write the rest of the character first before you do that, because it needs to be specific to that character specifically in this one where you've got.

You know, Divine G is delivering this incredible monologue. His character introduction is on the stage by himself, kind of surrounded by darkness, but in this pool of light, delivering this incredible Shakespearean monologue beautifully. And then the next moment he's being put in prison greens and called a number and told to get back to cell B, you know, like that gives you who that is.

Clarence Divine Eye, like the character Divine Eye being somebody who is really the king of this yard, this prison, and is hustling down somebody and, and shaking out 500 bucks from this kid. And then all of a sudden turns around and, and just off the cuff quotes King Lear, because he accidentally, he accidentally found the book and just, you don't know what to believe about this character and what he's going to do next.

You know, just finding the right character. 

Meg: Yeah, that's part of why you love him. 

Clint: That's part of why you want to lean in and be like, what is this guy going to do next? And what, what's he, what, what, what is he, isn't he going to be into? And that I think like with just finding the right one for your character, that, that gives you that.

And sometimes you got to write it last. 

Meg: I find that too. Okay, other question. What do you do when you get stuck? 

Clint: There's a lot of different, like, there's a lot of different ways you get stuck, right? There's like, there's ways where, and, and you just find ways to trick yourself, really. Sometimes you're getting stuck because you can't write and you don't have the energy for it, right?

You have like, quote unquote, writer's block and you're stuck where you're trying to think of something. A lot of times then I just trick myself and I start doing something else. I either start like, Working on something new that I've like, Oh, you know what? I've been trying to outline that other thing for a while.

I'm just going to start working on that today. And then you get into a groove and then it gives you that idea for the thing you're supposed to be working on. Then you come back to it. Or, you know, I think also we get prep. I find myself at least like getting very precious sometimes about the writing and I'm like, I can't get into that character, how they're supposed to be talking today, or I don't know how to write the introduction to the scene and I find if I just let go of that and I just say, you know what, I'm just going to throw ideas down and just to get something on the page, like a lump of clay that I can then start working with tomorrow and just start writing and just start, even if it's just like, terrible of like "Interior Room - Day. He walks in. Hi." You know, like the worst writing ever, just like doing that and getting something down or outlining also, you know, like not saying like, okay, I can't write dialogue today, but I'm just going to at least write the shape of the scene. And then inevitably some line will pop out that then requires an answer to that line.

And then, you know, and so it's just, you know, I don't know, however you can trick yourself to get into the writing sometimes, whatever you need.

Meg: Yeah, just get some water in the dry riverbed, right? 

Clint: That's right. 

Meg: Are you a binge writer or are you a write everyday writer? 

Clint: No, I treat it, I mean I do binge at times for sure.

When you, I think we all know how rare it is to get that true fucking inspiration. That jolt, where you feel like some lightning is coming down from somewhere into your head, through your fingers. And you have to just like If it's 11 o'clock at night and you're just trying to type a couple more sentences and go to bed and that starts happening, you got to like, be like, all right, I'm just, I'm staying up until three tonight because I don't know when this is going to, it might come again tomorrow.

It might not come for three weeks. Yeah. And so there's that. But I'm definitely a write every day if I can person and that I write fiction as well. And so even if I don't have a a screenplay that I'm working on or even if I'm just outlining, or even if I don't have anything and I'm just like, okay, I'm in the edit.

I'm in the edit on a film today. I don't have time to like write a lot. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna work on some description, you know, like, like, I'm just gonna like work on a paragraph for a short story. Because I only have an hour to write. Like, I think keeping that muscle up is really important, at least for me.

Every writer is different. 

Meg: And I aspire to be you. That's what I'm going to say. I aspire. 

Clint: I also have like two weeks at a time where I don't touch it because like you sometimes just like you need to, I've got a friend who's a composer and he talks about it of like, it's as important to breathe in as it is to breathe out.

And when you're breathing out, you're creating, you're out, you're giving, putting output. And then sometimes you just got to put it away and you got to take a break and, and, and then. Take a break from writing in general or composing or whatever it is and then come back to it renewed. So everybody out there, don't, don't be sad if you're taking a week or two off.

Meg: I love that. All right. Well, I could talk to you forever, but. 

Clint: I feel the same way. I'm so, it's such an honor to be on here. Thank you. 

Meg: Oh my gosh. I, I, I just love the way your mind works, but I'm going to ask the last three questions. So the first one is what brings you the most joy when it comes to your writing or directing?

Clint: I think it's all, and it's, it's all kind of the same answer of whenever something comes alive where it doesn't feel like it's coming from me, that gives me the most joy where whether it's writing something and I really feel like the characters are talking to each other or that character just did something that I never expected them to do or, or in you're, when you're, you've thought about a scene 500 ways.

And then an actor steps in or your DP steps in and asks one question that totally blows your mind and makes you think about it in a completely different way. That, I feel, then I feel like the artistic process is alive and is, and something other than me is guiding it. That brings me the most joy. 

Meg: Okay, what pisses you off about your writing?

Clint: What pisses me off about my writing? I get to, about my process or my writing specifically? 

Meg: About writing. The act of writing. Let's say that. 

Clint: What pisses me off about it, but is also simultaneous. It's a paradox because it's also simultaneously the thing where it gives me great hope because I feel like I can do it forever and all of us can do it until the day we die.

But it's that it does piss me off every time I start a new script because every I've been writing now for writing screenplays for 15 years actively. I've been writing now since I was, So longer than that and yet every time I start a new script, it's as if I've never fucking written a script before.

It's as if I've never written anything. I'm like, how do I start this thing? What is a first act? Like... 

Meg: What is writing? Like, why does our brains do that? It's crazy. 

Clint: I think it's a, I, that's the thing that simultaneously gives me great hope about it is because That means there's something to discover and it's fresh and when I look at it like that and I take myself, I take my ego out of and I take myself out of and I say, okay, this is great actually, because now I'm not just running through the motions and I'm not just doing what I did last time and I'm not just going through the same A to B to C to D, I have A and I've got H, I've got no idea what comes in the middle and that process of discovery of finding the thing, that means hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, that you'll make something interesting.

Meg: All right. I'm taking that because I I'm in that place right now, but I'm going to look at it as a discovery adventure. That means there's something to discover. I love that. Okay. Last question. If you had a coffee with your younger self, what advice would you give? 

Clint: Oh, that's a great question. I would say don't be so precious about the work.

Like, you have to, again, it's another paradox that both are true at the same time. You have to be completely, like, nitpicky, anal about it, but also you have to let go of perfection. And I, I wish I had, and what I would have told my younger self, And it was actually a breakthrough. I actually did this like 10 years ago, where I found that I was not producing anything, you know, I was writing the same thing over and over again.

I wanted to be a director, but I wasn't making many short films. And then I just sat down and I wrote down like, okay, what, what are you worried about? Like, why are you not making so much? And I was worried it wouldn't be perfect and it wouldn't be the best thing that was ever written and it wouldn't be the best short film that anybody had ever seen and it wouldn't win camp and then I was like, okay, if that's the worst thing that you're worried about, like, that's fine.

You're you're in good company. There's a lot of people like that who who are doing that. And once I let go of that and and looked at everything more, looked at my writing and directing, but specifically with writing as we're talking about that, looked at it more as a craft and just thought like, Okay, you've got to approach this as if you're a carpenter, and I'm a carpenter who makes dining tables, and I'm never going to become good at making dining tables if I only make one dining table every two years, or if I make the same dining table over and over again, or if I talk a lot about the perfect dining table, but I never start working.

There's, there's so much that you learn by doing, and you also learn about yourself. And you learn how to, how your weaknesses become the things that are special about you as a writer. There's, I heard an interview with John Prine, the great country singer one time, and somebody was asking him about his style of fingerpicking and how, how like unique it was.

And he's like, well, yeah, it's because I learned it wrong and I dragged my fingers over the strings. But People like it. So I just kept doing it. And it's just like that with writing where you just, you, you, you, you find ways to work around your inadequacies as a writer, and that's what ends up making you special and you lean into the things that you can do quite well, because everybody has those things, whatever they are, and they're different for every writer.

And that's a long winded way of answering your question, but that's what I would tell my younger self all of that. 

Meg: I love it so much that I think this whole episode should be a requirement for any emerging writer. Period. End of story. Just a requirement. 

Clint: Oh, that's kind. That's very kind. 

And read a lot of screenplays. Like, that's the thing, too, is like, The other thing I'll pass along, it's not mine, I heard this, I heard Paul Schrader say this, and it totally unlocked my, like, the way I approach screenwriting, is he said that screenwriting, you should look at screenwriting as coming from the oral tradition, not the written tradition.

And thinking about it more in those terms of like, you're not writing a mini novel, this is more akin to when your sister comes home from the grocery store with a dent in the car and starts telling you what happened, it's more like that, like, and, and, and approaching screenwriting that way of, of, of the written version of that, of, of, of thinking about how a story needs to flow that way.

That unlocked a lot for me. That's just a bonus thing. 

Meg: No, great advice, bonus, bonus, great advice. I, I've been taking notes. I did so many things. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Had a wonderful time. Good luck on the, the awards run. You guys deserve it all. 

Clint: Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for this incredible podcast. We all love it. 

Meg: Thanks so much to Clint for coming on the show. Sing Sing is being re-released into theaters January 17th. I cannot recommend it highly enough. 

And remember, you are not alone, and keep writing.