231 | A Writers' Assistant Roundtable, Pt. 1

Listen as former writers’ assistants Maggie Gottlieb, Lauren Halberg, and Jonathan Hurwitz detail their experience as writers’ assistants. They answer the important questions like: how do you actually get a writers’ assistant job, how can you elegantly parlay that job into bigger opportunities, and... the Big Scary Question: can I pitch in the room?

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Jeff: Hey TSLers, it's producer Jeff here. And before we jump into today's episode, I wanted to acknowledge the devastating fires that are raging throughout LA right now to all of our TSLers in LA, which I know is a lot of you, including the rest of our team, Meg, Lorien, and Jonathan, please, please, please stay safe.

I lived in LA for a decade and my heart is just so broken seeing what's happening to one of my favorite cities on the planet, just, I hope everyone's taking care of themselves and taking it easy on themselves. 

A quick episode note, Lorien mentions at the top of the show that this is a two part episode. During the edit, we decided that rather than combining both parts into a single recording, we're going to break them up. So this is part one and part two comes tomorrow, but in the meantime we hope everyone stays safe. 

Lorien: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna and Meg can't be here today, but we're super excited to be discussing one of the most, if not the most, important jobs in our industry, the writers' assistant.

Jeff: We're gonna be doing two segments on our show today. The first segment's a round table discussing what it means to be a writers' assistant on a TV show in the room. This is what most people think of when they think of a writers' assistant, and to discuss that we'll be talking to Lauren Halberg, Jonathan Hurwitz, and Maggie Gottlieb.

Lorien: Our second segment will feature another kind of assistant, a showrunner's assistant, and we'll be talking to Anthony Mussella later on in the show. So, let's get ready for some bios for Lauren, Maggie, and Jonathan. And it's three bios, and I know you guys just want to get to the part where we talk about being a writers' assistant, but I think it's really important to listen to these because you can see how being a writers' assistant can actually help you get a job as a writer.

So I'm going to introduce Jonathan Hurwitz first. He is an Emmy and WGA award nominated writer based in LA. He wrote Disney Channel's first short form series, Emmy nominated Shook, which was produced by the Duplass Brothers. Previously he was a staff writer on Lizzie McGuire with Disney+ and Spidey and his Amazing Friends with Marvel.

He started at Pixar Animation Studios as a production assistant on Monsters University and went on to be the script coordinator on The Good Dinosaur because I couldn't not have him on my team. He was the writers' assistant on Disney's Andi Mack, where he wrote two episodes. The first episode got nominated for a WGA award, and the second episode featured a main character coming out using the words, "I'm gay," a first in Disney Channel history. Of equal importance, Beyoncé has grabbed Jonathan's hands two of the fourteen times he's seen her in concert, and it's not a competition, but he's also the co producer of The Screenwriting Life. 

Jeff: And the lifeblood of our show. Jonathan, I tell you all the time, but you're amazing at your job, and we're so glad you're with us.

Lauren Halberg is an Asian American comedy writer from Minnesota, currently based in Northern California. She's worked as a writers' assistant on the multicam reboot Night Court for NBC, and animated shows Praise Petey for Freeform and Mulligan for Netflix, and she's co written two episodes. Lauren has an English degree from Scripps College, writing her thesis on Los Angeles as the site of a dystopia.

As a result, she spent the following six years outside of Los Angeles working at Pixar Animation Studios in the development, story, and production departments. 

Lorien: Welcome. Maggie Gottlieb is an award winning writer, originally from Chicago. Now, she took the scenic route to TV writing, making extended stops to earn her master's degree in art history and spend over a decade performing with renowned comedy institutions like iO and The Second City. Prior to staffing on Netflix's Exploding Kittens, she served as a showrunner's assistant on NBC's The Blacklist and the writers' assistant on YouTube's Emmy winning children's series, Tab Time. During her time on season one of Tab Time, she wrote an episode and was promoted to staff writer by the genius talent recognizing showrunner, that was me.

And on seasons two and three of Tab Time, she was the executive story editor. Maggie lives in Los Angeles with her husband and their rescue dog, Ripley. So welcome, Maggie, Lauren, and Jonathan. So could you all say hi and welcome yourselves so we can start to learn your voices. 

Jonathan: Hi, I'm Jonathan. 

Maggie: Hi this is Maggie Gottlieb.

First time caller, long time listener. 

Lauren: Hi, I'm Lauren. I will try to have a very similar voice to Maggie and a very similar name to you, just for maximum confusion. 

Lorien: And we missed each other at Pixar by like months. I left, I left like three months before you got there. We would have been best friends, obviously, if we'd been there together.

So I mean, 

Lauren: But it does go to show it's never too late to cross paths with people that you narrowly missed. So... 

Lorien: That's right. Oh, look at you being so optimistic. I love it. All right, so let's get into our interview. Okay, first of all, what is a writers' assistant? And what do they do? 

Maggie: So the writers' assistant, broadly speaking, is the job in the room where you are capturing what is said by all of the writers as it is orchestrated by the showrunner and making sure that all of the ideas are captured and that the top ideas rise to the surface as the story gets broken.

As I was reflecting on this question, on a good day it feels like you're a puppet master, or you're like a vaudeville comedian, and all the jokes are landing, everything's amazing, and on a bad day you feel like an old dirty dish towel because you're so tired from paying attention for such a long day.

Lorien: How did you get into the room as a writers' assistant? How did you get your job? 

Jonathan: I was, so I was working for three executives at Disney Junior. I was a development assistant. I had moved to LA for, for the job. And I was in the same building, just like a few floors below the Disney Channel executives.

And I just was sort of curious to learn about what they, what they did. So I asked my asked one of my bosses just to set me up with a general meeting. And so I had a general with one of the executives who said, "We are interviewing today and tomorrow for a writers' assistant for a new show that's about to come out. Are you interested?" And I was like, "Yes, please." I was a little conflicted because I felt like my bosses were just a few floors below me but felt like they would be supportive. So, I interviewed the next day on a Thursday got it on a Friday, told my bosses, they said, "Thank you for letting us know. No worries about the two weeks notice. You gotta do this." And I started that Monday. So mine happened through the luck of being in the same building as executives who were who are hiring. 

Jeff: Okay, before we hear from Maggie and Lauren, which I'm super excited about. Jonathan, can you quickly get specific about like how you actually specifically navigated the politics of getting another job while you actually had a job.

I only ask because this comes up all the time and it's such a common situation that we face in the entertainment industry because gigs lead to other gigs. So I think it'd be valuable just to articulate like how you actually politically navigated that. 

Jonathan: Yeah, sure. After I had been in, in the position as an assistant working for these, these executives, I would say maybe six or seven months in, we were checking in and it had come up in conversation.

You know, they sort of said, if you're interested in, you know, meeting other folks here, you know, let us know, you know, while you're here to take advantage of, of, of being here, talk to people in, in other departments. And I had said I'd love to talk to the folks at Disney Channel. You know, I was working at Disney Junior, which was preschool programming, and I grew up watching Disney Channel shows and just wanted to meet with, you know, some of the folks who worked for work for Disney Channel.

So they sort of gave me that that that door was there for me to ask. So, that was, that was sort of an, an, an easy ask. It was harder once I got, got the job offer to actually have that, that conversation with them. Honestly, it felt like, it didn't feel unlike coming out to my parents. Like, I was so terrified, and I sat them down, and like, I remember the room.

I was sitting on the couch and just said, "I I think, I think I want to be a writer?" And my boss, Joe was like, "You think?" And I was like, "No, I it's been, you know, something that I've sort of been thinking about since I've been working for you all. And I just got this job offer and just wanted to talk to you all about it."

So I didn't come in saying, "I got this job. I'm taking it." I use it as a way to open a conversation, invite their insight and advice on how to sort of proceed. And they thankfully both were really receptive and said, "You know, these jobs are really tough to, to come by. It'll be a great opportunity, a great way for you to learn if writing is the path you want to go on."

And thankfully, yeah, they supported me, me doing it. I don't think they knew that I was going to have to start that Monday. But they were, they were very supportive and it ended up working out. So, so just one other thing I want to add just because I've anecdotally I've heard, heard this happening, I would just, just be mindful of when you're in, in a position and trying to, to, to network. I've just heard from friends who have accidentally sent, sent emails to the wrong, to the wrong people, you know, within the company. So just, I would just say, if you're reaching out to folks, you know, in, internally, even externally to just, just be mindful of how you're going about doing that.

And, you know, who you're sending the email to and who you might be accidentally Cc'ing. So just, yeah, just be mindful of that. 

Lauren: I have also felt like a closeted writer in jobs in the past because I've wanted to be so clearly dedicated to the jobs I'm doing in that moment that it can feel like a secret to have other dreams and sharing those might feel like they're worried you're trying to leave. And I've found that actually supportive people want you to have dreams beyond the job that you're in. And ultimately, if you're doing the job, well, there is still space to express what your other goals and passions are.

And ideally people, if you, if shared appropriately, I think that those will be supported. But I spent a lot of years thinking like no one can know about. What I want to be. And that was silly. 

Jonathan: It's also, it's a nice way to also start that sort of like mentor, mentee relationship, which I think is really important in this industry.

That, that conversation was 10 years ago. He, that boss is, is still in my life as a mentor, we still keep in touch. I would say we maybe get lunch or dinner once a year and I still, yeah, it's, it's still a valuable relationship for me. So Maggie, I, you, I think you knew Lorien. How did you get connected to her for that writers' assistant job?

Maggie: So I knew of Lorien from the podcast cause I was a listener. But yeah, our mutual friend actually just texted me sort of out of the blue and asked if I would be interested in switching jobs. And I said, yes, for the right job. But what's the deal essentially, like ask for some details. And then when I found out that I would be working for Lorien I was even more interested and when I found out that it was for the type of show that we would be working on because I happen to have a strange passion for preschool content. Like I wrote a master's thesis about Sesame Street. And so I was very excited for the opportunity to like, I kind of like to think about it as inceptioning young minds to be better people from the beginning.

And so yeah, all of that was like green lights in that direction which I think I had a very quick turnaround as well. I think I like interviewed on a Friday or Saturday and started the following Monday or Tuesday. And I had a similar experience when I jumped from development and production assistant over to the showrunner's assistant position prior to that, where I sort of approached my bosses and thankfully I'd been open with them about wanting to move into a writers' room.

And so they were supportive and gave me the time I needed to, you know, make that happen. Yeah, but in terms of, moving forward from job to job, I, I have to say that really your friendships and personal connections make a huge difference because I was able to get into my first writers' room as an assistant from a connection that was like, it felt a little tenuous.

It was a high school friend who has since become an even better friend, but a high school friend who went to USC for screenwriting and had been, you know, working her way up from a writers' PA in this room. And you know, put my name in the pile essentially. So, you know, I still had to earn it. I still had to show up and do a good job at the interview, but you know, it's really important to be honest, be genuine, make those connections when and where you can because, you know, an opportunity can really come from anywhere.

And there are job boards. I don't know if Lauren or Jonathan, if you've had any success with them, but there was, I've been off the market for a little bit, but there was of course the assistants Facebook group that you know, people share sort of job opportunities on. I think I had heard a rumor that it was moving on to Discord before I left Facebook, so I'm not sure if that still exists but in addition to that, like, EntertainmentCareers.net. sometimes will post the occasional writers' assistant or showrunner's assistant job, but I've definitely had more luck with engaging with people I actually know, because I think a personal connection and someone vouching for you in this town, in this industry means so much more than, you know, whatever your resume might look like.

You might get the interview, but I think somebody's vouching for you and saying like they're a hard worker you know, they're going to do a good job means a lot more in most rooms. Have you found that, Lauren? 

Lauren: Well, a few things I want to say about that. I, first of all, do agree that talking to people, making connections real, in real life, is ultimately the best way to find these jobs.

But being from an area of the country where I had no connections in the industry, I do always try to stress to people that you don't need to have, you know, grown up, exposed to this industry even though it can feel like that sometimes and no disrespect for the people who do have that access from their early childhood, but I always wanted to be a writer and wasn't sure how to find those jobs and ended up going into production at first for that reason.

But I ultimately found that those production connections were still able to kind of pave that way one relationship at a time. And I'm really allergic to the idea of networking. I feel very grossed out by that term and that strategy. But I think that you can make genuine friendships with people who you actually like and that those can lead to the next thing.

It doesn't need to feel like forging a relationship for the sake of having the connection. And that is sort of what ended up happening to me. My last job at Pixar was as the producer's assistant, which meant scheduling all the talent and being connected with their teams. So one of the voices on Soul was Tina Fey.

And I just became really good friends with her assistant because we were, you know, planning flights in crisis together and just genuinely got along. And she reached out to me asking if I knew anyone who would want to be a writers' assistant. So it just sort of, the dream appeared in my lap and in a way, but I, I hope it was because I had been putting feelers out into the universe.

But I actually said no at first, I didn't realize how hard these jobs were to come by, but I loved my job on Soul and I wanted to see it through to the end. So, I said, "Me in another circumstance with different timing. So please, please, please, please, please reach back out to me the next time one of these things comes along." And it actually did.

So looking back, I now realize. That was fortunate that there were two opportunities, but I also do think that things happen as they're meant to and if you do feel like something is the wrong timing, or it's also okay to say no to some opportunities and know that more you will find more and it is hard and it is competitive.

But as much as it's okay to stop what you're doing and shift when it feels right. It's also okay to have faith that that you can find the path later on as well. 

Jonathan: When you're in these assistant positions, whether you're assisting a producer, like you were Lauren, or I was assisting executives it's, or being, you know, actually being a writers' assistant in a room.

I think it's easy to not look down on, but I don't know, get, get frustrated with some of the, the tasks that you have, have to do. I mean, getting people lunch, for example, but these are, these are easy, easy things that you can do and do well and do them consistently well. And I think people see that, like, just use it as an opportunity to to just show that you're, that you're reliable and, and committed.

And, you know, I know there was a writers' assistant on a show I worked on that, you know, would. It almost reminds me of, like, my mom would leave me notes, like, in my lunchbox sometimes, or, like, draw, like, a little smiley face. Like, there was a writers' assistant who personalized notes in, like, a really adorable way.

And that's just, it's such a small, easy, little thing, but it really, like, stood out. People remember that person. So, just, do a good job and just like be proud of what you're doing at all stages of your career. 

Maggie: If you are hoping to move in this direction if you are hoping to become a writers' assistant or become a writer one day or get your foot in the room it can be really helpful to get your foot in the door with like any entertainment assistant position first to learn the lingo, learn how scheduling emails are worded, get a flow for like, I don't know, all the things that aren't necessarily going to come as second nature if you're coming from a different industry or if you didn't necessarily come up in this world.

There is a learning curve and I think to be able to kind of flow through those spaces and speak that language with a little more facility. Even if it doesn't feel connected immediately.

Lorien: All right, Jonathan, practically speaking, what is it physically like in the room when you're a writers' assistant? Are you sitting at the table? Are, are you using a pen? Are you typing? What are you doing? 

Jonathan: So I was on Andi Mack for, for three seasons, which was about three years. And in those three years, the people in the room never changed.

We had the same staff for all three years. And we sat in the same exact seats for three years. I was at the head of the table for some, for some reason it just sort of landed that way on day one. And that's how it stayed. I had my laptop open and was taking, taking notes from when we started, which was about 10, 10 o'clock. There was usually, I would say, if I'm being honest, 30 to 45 minutes of generously shooting the shit I would say is what we would call it. And just sort of catching up. I was taking notes during that time, though, because there are things that we would casually bring up in those first 30 minutes that I had a feeling might come back later. So I was really taking notes from about 10 until we wrapped, which varied, but somewhere around five, five, six o'clock, I would say.

Lorien: All right, Lauren, are you taking verbatim notes, like literally writing down everything everyone says? Are you summarizing? What are the different ways that someone can be a writers' assistant? 

Lauren: It really depends. So I've been in three different rooms, two of which were on Zoom, and one of which was in person, and the needs in that respect really vary from showrunner into showrunner.

The first show I was on was verbatim notes which luckily was fairly familiar to me, having been a story coordinator at Pixar, where the verbatim brain trust notes were a very serious affair. But it very heavily shifted from show to show, as well as what part of the show you're at. I think verbatim is more important at the beginning when it's blue sky and as you get your own sense of the episode and are sensing what's you know, choices are being made.

You can sense what is important and what's not. But I think at the very beginning of being a writers' assistant, I was typing like, "Ha ha, yes, my weekend was good," because I was so worried something was going to be missed. But you start to figure it out. 

Jonathan: I found my notes from 2016, 2017 when I first started.

And my first couple, you know, sets of notes were incredibly long, like 20, 25 pages every day. And then I've slowly learned what actually needed to be recorded. And, you know, thankfully I also got feedback from, from the showrunner and from the writers that first week. I was very open and just said, "Hey, tell me, you know, what's working, what isn't like, let's get this down to something that is actually going to be helpful for you all." And so eventually they got down, I would say an average of maybe 10 pages a day. 

Maggie: I had a similar experience, Jonathan, where I dove right in. And the first time I served as the writers' assistant, I was actually covering for the writers' assistant while I was the showrunner's assistant.

And I got some very generous feedback from an executive producer on the show, shout out Carla Kettner, who sort of pulled me aside and was just like, you know, I had about 30 pages of notes the first day. And she was sort of like, you know, you, you can use your editor brain. Like we need, you know... of course, we want to capture as much as possible, but try to keep it high level.

And so, that was very useful after the first couple days to refine and get myself down to a more reasonable page count. 

Lorien: So Maggie, when you joined the Tab Time room as the writers' assistant, you were also supporting me as the showrunner's assistant. 

Maggie: Yeah, more or less. And the script coordinator. 

Lorien: And the script coordinator. We were a low budget show. We had a small room, fast turnaround. I mean, I offered you the job, what, you had a day, two days? 

Maggie: Yeah, I think. 

Lorien: I had to staff a room in a week, right? It was, you got the job, you have a week to staff the room, the room starts in a week. So, that, sometimes that's going to happen, right, on a lower budget show.

You're going to have to do a lot of jobs, and each one is a full, real job. So. How, how did you manage that? I mean, we had some growing pains, right? It was like boundaries, and we were so busy. It'd be like 10 o'clock at night. I'd be like, can we talk about the notes and preparing for the show the next day?

And so it was like trying to figure that out for both of us. And it was... 

Maggie: Well, at first, a first season show, I think, is always an adventure because the showrunner is getting a handle on exactly what the show is and sort of like building the ship as they're sailing it. So there was a little bit of that going on.

And of course, the room is all figuring it out together as well. But yeah, there were late nights for sure. We had to do a lot of over communicating just to make sure that we were on the same page. You know, felt like I, I can't even remember what the count was, but Lorien, at the end of season one of Tab Time, you and I were just like counting the number of files in my folder.

I think I have 1500 individual drafts in my folders. It was like an absurd number. You know, for, and I think it was 10 episodes the first season. So, right. 

Lorien: But we also had segments. So sometimes we would just have a room completely like we're just doing this segment. We're going to look at all 10 episodes of the garden and see that they are tracking.

Right. So there was a lot of, so for me as a showrunner, my job was to have everything in my head. And that meant you had to have everything in your head and you had to read my mind a lot of the time because I spoke in shorthand and I'm sure, you know, I'd be like, you know, that thing we talked about yesterday and you would just know it and it was like, you know, and that's a, that's that sort of unknowable quality that, I mean, all of us are looking for in our life, right?

Is there been a time in your life, Jonathan or Lauren, where you just weren't able to do that? Or you met like you weren't... what does it look like when you can't read the showrunner's mind and how do you manage that? 

Lauren: So I was an assistant, my last job at Pixar before leaving was as a producer's assistant that was such a healthy relationship and I think I really got a sense for how important it is to just be honest when you don't know what's going on, which served me in being a writers' assistant where in writers' rooms sometimes people can be very trepidatious about asking things or saying things or even, like, going to the bathroom, for example, and, I think, coming from... your faces are making me feel like I need to clarify on that.

I don't think anyone's, like, too scared to leave if they really have to, but generally, you find when there's a break, everyone's like, "Oh, thank God." 

Lorien: I see, I see, okay. 

Maggie: Because you don't want to break the role when people are on a roll, right? 

Lauren: Totally. And you don't want to miss anything. It's, you could leave and come back and suddenly everything is fully shifted.

Anyway, I think there can be hesitation and people are all being very cautious about reading the room. And, um, but I think that coming from an environment where I wasn't worried and was comfortable, just asking the questions I needed answers to was really useful in terms of, so I have always just been someone who will say, "So sorry, I wasn't, I didn't hear that," or even, this feels weird, something feels weird, even if it's like about the setup of the room or something like don't get used to something, it's possible it could be solved with just one question, and don't suffer through if you haven't verified that that is the way it needs to be, not to say you should push too heavily on, on any one thing, but I think that oftentimes it's better to just say, "Could this be shifted," or, "Could you say that again," and the answer is usually "yes." 

Lorien: How do you know when to ask that question? 

Lauren: When no one else is talking or depending on the urgency, I, I guess you could, I think it'd be okay to say. 

Lorien: How do you know when you can contribute story ideas as a writers' assistant in the room?

Jonathan: That's a really good, good question. I mean, I'm, I'm such a, I think for most of my life was, just kind of a wallflower, right? Like just sort of a silent, a silent observer in really any setting. And so I think for my first month or two, that's really the role that I filled in, in the room. I didn't do a lot of, a lot of talking.

I would say for really the first, the first couple of months, I did a lot of just listening and observing the dynamics in the room. Sort of figuring out again, this is my first time in a writers' room. So an observation I was making in those first couple of months was, okay, it seems like there's some folks who are really, really strong comedy writers.

Like they are pitching, they are joke pitchers, right? There was a couple of those. And then there was another group of people. They were I would say identify more as you know, drama writers who are pitching character ideas and talking about, "What is this character... you know, what is the character feeling and thinking?" And so that's something I was observing and just noticing for myself. Okay. I know I'm not, I'm not a comedian. I'm not a joke pitcher. I know that's not where I'm going to be able to contribute. However, I do feel like I, I had thoughts about speaking up when they were talking about, especially the one character who was who was gay and I was the only gay one in the room.

And so I definitely had thoughts about that character. And so I decided that that was going to be my way in. Like, that's how I was going to contribute. Like, what could I contribute to this room specifically that would you know, make sense for me to, to sort of speak up about? So I found my way into the conversation through that particular character.

Lorien: Was it nerve wracking? Did you ask if you could? Did the showrunner say anything you have to contribute? Like, how did you know it was okay? 

Jonathan: I didn't. I didn't. I was really, really nervous. I mean, I was in my head about it for a very long time. I mean, I, what I would do at night, like the night before is I would, in one, like a separate document, I would just sort of jot down some like potential pitches for the character.

So I didn't want to be doing anything on the fly. Like I wanted it to all be beautifully thought out. Because that's, that's really scary that first time that you speak up because what, what if it doesn't land? And then what if you feel like you can never speak up again? So it felt, it felt very risky but this room felt, felt safe.

Yes, everybody had a title, but I didn't feel, really feel the hierarchy in the room. So I did feel feel comfortable, feel comfortable sharing. So it just took a couple months to get there. 

Lorien: I'm glad you did, because you went on to make history. An actual Disney character said, "I'm gay." 

Jonathan: Yeah. After three, yes, after three seasons of it... it, yes, it wasn't easy, but yes, it did happen. Eventually. 

Lorien: Everything takes a long time or no time at all. You get hired in an hour or it takes three years for your pitch to get on the air. Look, it's just the reality. Same question to you, Lauren and Maggie. 

Lauren: Well, I think in terms of, this sort of gets to the, doing multiple jobs at once aspect as well, that as a writers' assistant.

You are, what, part of what's so hard about it is you are doing the writers' assistant job while trying to dip your toe into the staff writer job as well. And what's really cool about it is when that feels overwhelming or it's new, you don't, my job of trying to say staff writer-y things is optional and you can just focus on the writers' assistant work, but once you get to the point of feeling comfortable pitching it's like I'm not only trying to do this assistant job and this typing job and this remembering everything job and this not falling asleep because I stayed up until three proofing this job but also showing that I, I have ideas.

I think for me, similar to you, Jonathan, except maybe I didn't, I stayed quiet for even longer. My entire first writers' assistant job, I didn't feel comfortable pitching because I was just so in awe of what was happening. It was so new. Also, I'd only been at Pixar for six years, that one environment. First time leaving that pandemic, Zoom. 

It was all so new that I was like, I'm just going to listen and observe and learn. But I did feel comfortable. Everyone was so kind and I did feel comfortable talking to them as people and friends and in all of those moments when we were just catching up about what we had for lunch and our families and everything I started just getting comfortable speaking about myself and more socially and I think that in each room I've been in since where I then did feel comfortable also pitching it started with just feeling like okay, we're all people who know each other and trust each other and are that sort of gave way to that eventually, knowing that you're not that I trust you to not mock me if falls flat.

Lorien: Did it help that you saw other people maybe pitching and it didn't really work? Because that's a reality of being a writer in the room. 

Lauren: Yeah, it's also, I've worked some pretty long hours in some of my jobs, and I think when it's, it's not like, okay, we're here for two hours, everything's gonna be perfect, it's, it's not the most efficient in that sense.

So, it's like, we're, especially, jokes were a really good way in for me to start feeling comfortable because it's not like I'm spending five minutes explaining a whole idea for someone's emotional arc, it's like, if everyone is just throwing out four words at a time, it's really low stakes, ultimately, it feels high stakes in your body for the first times you're doing it, but it's, nobody is You know, it's gonna stop and notice a pitch that gets a quieter laugh than the one before it.

So, that felt like a good entry point to me. 

Lorien: Maggie? 

Maggie: Yeah, not folks at home can't see me, but I'm just nodding aggressively to everything that's Jonathan's saying because there's so much, so many pearls of wisdom here. I think in terms of gauging when to pitch, when to center yourself, when to pull focus every room is really kind of a special snowflake, right?

You kind of have to spend your first few weeks however much time feels appropriate to vibe out. Is this a more egalitarian space? Is there a more rigid hierarchy here? Who's speaking? What sort of gravitas is behind their words when they speak? And once you get a sense of the personalities, and like Jonathan was saying, sort of like where you fall.

in terms of your skill set in the room, because make no mistake, showrunners do look very aggressively for balance in the room in terms of who are the joke pitchers, who are the people that are keeping an eye on character story arcs, who are the people that are going to be like, "Wait, you lost this emotional beat or like, where's the kid? The kid's been missing for three episodes," or whatever the case may be. 

So I think it's really smart to take a beat to realize like, oh, we're actually kind of missing this element in the room. Or, you know, here's a way that I can sort of lend a hand, or like Lauren was saying, sort of pitch things that are a little bit lower stakes at first. Like, I think, Lorien, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when I started speaking up in the Tab Time room as the assistant, I, it was, you know, smaller pitches at first, like character names, or like, what could the catchphrase be for this particular character, things like that, where it's not like, what if we rewrote this entire segment, or what if we totally derailed this idea. So you get a sense of what feels appropriate the more you get to know your colleagues. 

And again, like Lauren was saying, sort of, it's tricky in a Zoom room, but when you have opportunities to have sort of water cooler talk with the other writers, maybe bounce ideas off of the lower level writers or the mid level writers and kind of build those relationships so that they can be your champions in the room too, and help to advocate for you when they see an opportunity to be like, "Oh, you know, Jonathan had this really cool idea that we were talking about the other day," or, you know, "Lauren, what was that funny thing you said when we were eating lunch?"

So I think it's... rather than pulling focus in the high stakes moments to truly build those organic relationships so that you know when people are open and receptive as well. 

Jonathan: Also I think, I was just gonna add, I think you have to remember that like to be in a writers' room is to inevitably say something that might not land.

It happens with everybody, including the showrunner. You know, I've been in, in rooms where the showrunners pitch stuff that just. doesn't work. And so every, we're all sort of in it, in it together. And I cannot believe I'm about to offer a sports reference, which feels massively off brand for me. It's so weird, but I'm having a visual of like watching my, my brother always played sports growing up.

And I remember it, it was basketball or baseball, I always get them mixed up, but when he fell, his coach would just be like, "Okay, walk it off, walk it off." That's, I think, sort of what I was doing. If I pitched in a room and it didn't land the conversation moves so quickly, nobody remembers. You just, you just sort of move on and pick yourself up and just, and just keep going.

Maggie: And never pitch the same idea more than twice. 

Jonathan: Oh, yes. 

Maggie: If people aren't responding, it's generally for a reason. And we're moving on. That's okay. 

Jonathan: Our co EP in this first room I was in gave me really good advice. He said, "Pitch, don't bitch." So he said, if you're going to critique something that got thrown out, make sure you're following it up with the suggestion, right?

So you're, yeah, you're pitching, not bitching. 

Lauren: I would say, don't, don't criticize other people's pitches, period. I feel like kind of for everybody, but especially for a writers' assistant, I feel like that's not your place. Like, adding on or saying another version of that could be, but I feel like any form of, like, kind of shooting other people down is just not, not the right energy, even if in your mind you're like, I'm not seeing that, that that way, but...

Jonathan: No, I should clarify, I never did that as a writers' assistant. I did that, I did that when I was a staff writer. So that's a really good, really good, good call out. Yeah. 

Lauren: But also for what you're saying of failing. Oh, so sorry. 

Maggie: No, go ahead. 

Lauren: I was just going to say that I also in terms of this, you're going to sometimes have a pitch that doesn't land, maybe.

Every day that's gonna happen it can lead to triggering a thought in someone else's mind, or getting you into an area, like, "Oh, that, not that, but, you saying those words made me think of this other person." Semi-related things, so you never know. You can still feel good in your heart that it somehow led to the path that people got onto that did work.

Maggie: Yeah, and I think one caveat to what we're talking about is the idea of criticizing or trying to punch up an idea that's in play as opposed to, I do think it falls more within the writers' assistant's job to point out red flags because you are in lockstep with the showrunner and you do have total knowledge ideally of what happened three episodes ago, what's happening two episodes from now, ideally. And you're going to have that sort of like database of knowledge in your brain more readily than some of the writers, even though everybody should be reading every draft and looking at every cut, but not everybody does.

So you ideally are going to be the voice of, "Sorry, just I just wanted to flag that, you know, that's not the daughter's name," or like, whatever it happens to be, and then, you know, or if it happens to be a storyline that's already been used or something that's a little bit bigger than a quick switch out, it's, I think, okay to say, "I don't have a solve for this just yet, but I wanted to remind everyone that blah, blah, blah, whatever needs to be addressed," so that we don't spend an hour going down a rabbit hole of a story that we can't use for some reason.

Lorien: Yeah, Maggie, you did that really well. Sometimes you'd text me instead of no, which was great because then I'd get to decide if I was going to redirect the conversation or keep it going because I liked the direction it was going in. And I didn't want to be like, right. So, that was really helpful that I then got to decide.

You know, and then, and then you, you learn, you know, then we all learn like how we can say those things, but like you had such a good sense of, that's why I think it is the most important job in a room, because you know more than the showrunner in some ways because you have a little bit distance. From the room than the showrunner does emotionally, at least two, right?

The stakes are really high to deliver all that stuff and read all those things. But you're also reading all those things and being that second big brain in the room and also carrying the weight of you're running the room a little bit too. I mean, a lot. And I think having an amazing showrunner sorry, an amazing showrunner, please, wouldn't that be great?

Amazing writers' assistant, someone in the room, it feels like a partnership to me. And that, I felt like I had an ally, and that I could be like, "Was that, did I hear that right? Right? Like, I often didn't have time to read the notes, honestly, but I would be like, okay, "I need a quick, who said this, what happened here," when I was spacing out, you know, or thinking about this other thing I wanted to bring up, or I got called away for 15 minutes to make a decision about the color of something, you know, so.

I, I really do think it is one of the most important jobs in the industry and so many writers assistants. Well, I'm going to ask you guys this. Do you feel like there's a, you know, we, the way we talk about writers in a room, there's higher level, mid level, lower level, that there's this weird hierarchy assigned to them when in a good room, none of that stuff is really, it shouldn't be evident.

But as a writers' assistant, do you feel like, othered or that like it's not something I want. I would love it if we all felt proud of the jobs we did no matter what it was, but I'm wondering if you brought any of that to the room or your first gig. 

Maggie: I would say in the interest of self advocacy. You can advocate for, of course, bio breaks, pause to repeat what was just said. In some cases, maybe like, "Ooh, this is emotionally tricky for me. Can we just take a moment cause I'm getting overwhelmed by whatever the content is in this particular episode." Those types of advocacy, but I think also it's very fair when you're interviewing for these jobs to ask the questions in advance.

Like, how do you feel about assistants pitching? Have you ever given an assistant an episode before? Those sorts of questions are well within your right to ask. To kind of just help from the outset, your boss to see you as a writer, as a producer, whatever you want to be in the future, but also to just make it known, like, this is a goal of mine. This is something that I want rather than I don't know, ideally you're not seen as a quote unquote "assistant," not a writer, but I think it's well within your rights to kind of vocalize those needs or desires up front. 

Lorien: I mean, I think every showrunner wants to hire a writers' assistant who's a writer, who's written because you need another brain in the room to understand what the notes are and what the process is.

So. That that's what I was looking for. Sorry, Jonathan... 

Jonathan: No, I just was like, Maggie, talk to me more about advocating for yourself. How do you do that? That I mean, as like an eternal people pleaser, I think, absolutely, when I was a writers' assistant did not understand that you could, that you could do that and speak up for yourself that when you said that I was getting a little, you know, emotional, I guess, having, I guess a little bit of a lava moment was coming up because there was a day where we were doing a table read and it was an episode where the storyline with the character who is, was gay was featured prominently.

And again, as a writers' assistant, I always was listening, even, even if we were taking a break from the room, I was always on and we had two of the executives in the room and I overheard one of them say, "I thought we were done with the gay stuff." And I overheard them, I overheard them saying that, and it was upsetting.

It was it... I flashed back to being in the closet in elementary school and middle school and I just buried it. I let it go and then I had to sit in the room in the afternoon and continue taking notes fully having just heard, heard this and had I felt comfortable sort of speaking up for myself. I don't know what I, what I would have done, even if it was just maybe pulling one of the writers aside and just saying, "Hey, this is really tough. Like I just heard, I just heard this. It's a bummer." And instead, you know, I just did what I always, you know, did, which was, you know, smile and put my head down and, and do the job. So I think what you just said is really wise. And I wish I had heard that before I started. 

Maggie: Wow. First of all, I'm sorry that happened. That sucks. And I'm sure it was harder to get through that day as a result. I, yeah, I had a similar experience several times, but I think there was one in particular where we were doing like a serial killer storyline and there was pitching for, it was like an eight hour day in the room pitching on different ways to mutilate a body particularly a female body.

And I was just like, ooh, yikes, this is a lot for me. And that was sort of the day that I realized I had to start flexing that muscle of pushing back when and where I could. And I think that's a good strategy that you're suggesting to kind of mention it to another ally in the room if you don't feel comfortable speaking up in the moment.

But yeah, I think there's a sort of emotional and mental transition, or at least there was for me, in the transition from assistant mindset into, like, staff writer mindset, where well, it's twofold. The twofold thing is, like, trusting your worth in the room in a new way once you into that new role.

And I think also for me, there was a mental transition where I had to become okay with having less access to the showrunner and less access to information about what was going on behind the scenes. And you have to sort of trust that your process in the room is gonna stand alone. You don't necessarily need to have all the information about the hoopla behind the scenes or like why the budget's being cut or whatever the case may be.

And learning to trust that you're there for a reason is It's an emotional journey, and it's very lava-y, so, I mean, I think a lot of, sorry, I'm rambling at this point, but I do think that a lot of assistants, are put in positions that they shouldn't necessarily be put in. And they are so desperate for these opportunities and access to these spaces that it's really difficult to advocate for yourself.

So being only so slightly on the other side of that experience, like, I, you know, it's, it's a skill set. It's a muscle that you have to build over time to know your worth, know when to push back and when to protect yourself. Cause you know, there's a million people lined up for all these jobs and all of us know that in the back of our minds.

So it's important. 

Lorien: The industry isn't shy about reminding us all of us as writers of that all the time. Well, there's a bake off. We've got five writers pitching on this and if you're going to be difficult. We can just as easily find that somewhere else, right? There's that in the background all the time. 

Maggie: 100%. Someone will be willing to do the job. So if you're speaking up for a storyline that's misrepresenting some community that isn't in the room to speak up for themselves or whatever the case may be yeah, it, It's important to just know that you're there for a reason, you do have value, and you know, you gotta pick your battles sometimes, of course, but some of them are worth fighting for, truly.

Lauren: I'm learning so much. Oh, so sorry. 

Lorien: Oh, go ahead. 

Lauren: I'm, I'm learning so much listening to, to Maggie and Jonathan here. I thought that I had learned this amazing thing that you should tell people if you're about to get a UTI because you have to go to the bathroom so badly, and it turns out everyone else is advocating for misrepresented or underrepresented communities in their spaces. So, I'm very inspired. 

Lorien: It's not dissimilar, right? Body autonomy, like you have to protect your mental and physical health, and sometimes that means I have to go to the bathroom. You know, it's, I'm not minimizing what you're talking about, Maggie or Jonathan, but like, and as, when you're in the room, when I'm running the room, I'm basing it off my needs, right?

I, I had to remember to, "Oh, right. We have to take a break." But just cause I'm fine running the room doesn't mean that like everybody else is. And I, it's nice to be reminded, like, "Hey, you're getting weird, right? Like take a break, go eat a snack, you know, like what are you talking?" You know, it's nice to be, it's nice when somebody can manage up.

I think that's a skill in a writers' assistant that Maggie, you're really good at, and anyone I've worked with is really important. And it's an added thing that you need to learn how to do, but managing up is a critical skill. And when I learned at Pixar, and that doesn't mean manipulation, and it doesn't mean bossing someone around.

It means, I don't know, what does it mean? Can someone articulate this for what does it mean for you when, if you have to manage up? 

Lauren: I feel like my assistant when I feel like I'm being a good assistant is I am helping the person I am working for be better at their job. And I think those are the things that are helpful to flag, is if it's like you are you know, juggling a thousand balls and I'm going to remind you of something that you're not able to keep track of yourself and I'm helping you be better at your job.

When it might be just unhelpful or annoying as if the thing that you're bringing up is more of a personal agenda than something that is going to help your boss to, to complete their own tasks. So I think good managing up is that after the person that is managing you hears that, they are better equipped to succeed themselves.

Lorien: That's great. I love that answer. Because a good showrunner should be helping everyone in the room be better at their jobs too, right? So we're all trying to work together to like, be amazing. So all three of you were given episodes to write on the shows that while you were a writers' assistant. So all for different reasons, right?

So like you get this, "Hey, would you write this episode?" And you're broke that out, you know, you broke the outline of the room and you're off to write your episode. Describe that. What that felt like when it was like, "Okay, go write the episode." What was that like? 

Jonathan: Terror. Oh my god, imposter syndrome, hello. It was for me, absolutely terrifying.

Well, first of all, I got, the writers would get a week at home to write the episode. So they would leave the room, we'd carry on in the room, they would go home for a week and write. So my first thing was, "Am I going to be able to leave, if I leave the room, who's going to be taking notes?" So we, I worked it out so I was able to get a couple days at home. The showrunner's assistant filled in for me and she took notes, and so I did get, I was fortunate that I did get a couple days at home uninterrupted to work on it. But sometimes that that doesn't happen.

I've had friends who've been the writers' assistant and they get an episode... they're fully in the room all day, and then they're either writing in the morning or in the evening. God bless them. I don't know how you do that, but the writers' assistant job to me was incredibly exhausting and you know, once, once everybody leaves the room, you have to stay and organize the notes.

That's a whole other thing. So you're, you're working late and my brain, I just, I personally could not write after, after the room. So, yeah, no, I got a couple of days at home. I tried to get, I had a week to do it. I tried to get it done a day or two early and I had made an ally in, in the room. I sent it to her first.

I said, "Will you please read this before I turn it into the showrunner ? So that was super, that was super helpful to get that first pass. She gave me her feedback and then I submitted it to, to our showrunner. So. 

Lauren: I do think per, you've brought up having an ally in there, I do think that is crucial to identify early on who, ideally everyone there is your friend, and I think even the people who are more mentors are, you know, people that you, you're ideally friends with everyone, but someone who you truly can trust to be honest with you, if you're like, "Was what I said today in an okay tone?" Or, "Do you think it's bad that I have an orthodontist appointment that goes till 10: 15?" Like, someone who can actually answer those questions and you don't feel like you're bugging them. 

Also, we haven't talked about the script coordinator job, which just for those who truly are new to all of this terminology. Generally, there is a writers' assistant and a script coordinator, which in my experience are Interchangeable. For the most part the script coordinator typically is responsible for more of the production distribution of scripts and sort of interfacing with the different department needs but again, I think that it all starts moving really fast and the lines get very blurred and... but that ideally is also a crucial friendship where the writers' assistant and the script coordinator can, you know, text each other all day and say, "Did you get that?"

And say, like, you know, just be there to hear about each other's lives and and be, kind of hold hands throughout the whole thing. So, that typically when you're a writers' assistant, you have someone who is essentially doing the same job and hopefully working with you as a team. 

Lorien: So Maggie, you were the showrunner's assistant, the writers' assistant, and the script coordinator, and I gave you an episode.

When we had, I think, like, we had six weeks to write the ten episodes, we got two more episodes on the first day of the room. So I was like, "Congratulations, you have ten episodes." So you got an episode maybe halfway into our writing process. I don't remember you taking any time away to write that episode.

Maggie: There simply was not time. 

Lorien: There was not enough bodies in the room. Like it, we didn't. So how did you, was it just like, "Oh my God, it's so busy. I don't even care. Like I'm not having a real emotional reaction to getting this episode or..." 

Maggie: Oh, I definitely had an emotional reaction to getting the episode. I was stoked.

And I think I think I texted you a picture of my celebratory purchase from, like, Ralph's checkout line. I was like, champagne, Totino's pizza rolls, and Oreo ice cream. I was like, this is how I'm celebrating. I'm stoked. Yeah, there was no time, simply no time to, to get away from the room. But, I mean, it was a very, like, head down, "in it to win it" sort of show in terms of the timeline.

It was just wild. And so of course, sleeplessness occurred. It was a little bit burnout-y by the end, I think for both of us and for everyone involved. But the the benefit of that, honestly, was that I was so keyed into everything happening that I felt very confident when I went away with the outline to be like, I know the show like the back of my hand, because I've been living, eating, sleeping, breathing it for the last five or six weeks.

So I was very ready to like bang out a draft. And at the time our EP Sean helped by reviewing the script before I sent it to you. And so that was an extra layer of protection to know that like, oh, this person who, whose opinion I trust, whose opinion Lorien trusts you know, says that this looks like a real episode of television.

So that was an extra vote of confidence before turning it in. But yeah, it, you know, there were again, sleepless nights, long hours. It was, it was a grind. 

Lorien: Yes. I don't remember sleeping a lot during that either. But, you know, so I don't know who said it. It was one of the most brilliant things, you know. "Running your own show is like being beaten to death with your dreams," which I imagine is, "Oh my God, I got a writers' assistant gig. I'm going to be in the room. I'm being beaten to death with my own dreams," right? Like here I am doing this thing, and it is so hard. So hard. I mean, I did these jobs. I understand what it is. Like, I'm not just saying that. I worked at Pixar for a very long time and was in a lot of different types of rooms doing a lot of different types of jobs, you know. 

I had one more question and then I think, Jeff, you have a question. I'm curious not just advice for people who are getting this job, have this job, starting this job, but specific advice, like what have you learned specifically of something to do or something not to do? Like practical, practical advice for somebody. 

Lauren: To get a writers' assistant job or when you're in it? 

Lorien: I guess it would be, it's just so hard because we all get jobs or agents or managers or gigs in such specific, there isn't really a path. So it's like, you've got a job, you're, you're a week into your writers' assistant gig. What to watch out for, what to do, it's based on something that you learned on the job. 

Jonathan: Circling back to the beginning, I now feel like I can't believe I had, so I got the job on a Friday and started on a Monday and now I realized, "Oh my God, what a luxury. I had a weekend, a weekend to prepare."

So I just was thinking one thing that was super, super helpful for me was when I got the job, I asked the showrunner to send me, send me a set of notes from the last show that she had been a showrunner on that she felt like were good notes and not just send them to me. It's, oh, I feel it's almost like I gave her homework. I was like, "Can you explain to me why you liked them?" And that was immensely helpful because she did send me the notes and she put in the email exactly what she liked about them, right? Like using bullet points instead of paragraphs, joke pitches were in bold, separating the room discussion notes versus the notes that went up on the board.

Like she gave me, she laid it out. And so on that first day in the room, yes, I was scared, but I also sort of had a template and I modeled my notes after that set that she gave me. So again, I had a whole 48 hours to ask her for that. So I realize you might not be able to do that, but that's something that was super helpful to me that maybe I'd recommend for people to do. 

Lorien: You can also find out who worked with her before. 

Jonathan: Yes, and she, I, I did, I did end up reaching out to her. And she she actually ended up doing a freelance episode that, that season. So that's also a great resource, is the previous writers' assistant. 

Lorien: And along those lines when you are working, when you have a show and you're working with a network or whatever, I've always asked, they'll say like, do a story area.

And I'm like, "Well, can you send me one that you like," so that you're not just working in a vacuum. I think that's great advice for all of us, right? Like, oh, can you send me a pilot of your last show or look it up, find it, so that you understand what, what is working for that person or that network. 

My interjection was super important just now and really on topic. I mean, you're welcome, everybody. I, yeah, sorry. Okay, go ahead. 

Maggie: Nailed it. 

Lorien: Nailed it. I mean, I'm amazing. This is when Maggie would text me with, "Stay on topic, Lorien." No. 

Maggie: It's your show. I'm not gonna text you anything other than thank you for having me. But so we've already talked a little bit about managing up and how to conduct yourself in the room.

But I, I do want to stress that even though you're a writer, even though you have these goals, these dreams, these aspirations, your job is your job. So whether you're a PA, a writers' assistant, a showrunner's assistant, you know, whatever you happen to be, if you're organizing the, the LaCroix in the fridge, like do that well and shine in the role that you are given, whatever it is, and let yourself be noticed for that in addition to whatever else you're bringing to the room.

And if you're in the writers' assistant role, you are given an opportunity to circulate your writing amongst a lot of really great talented writers. So don't. You know, I don't know it take it seriously when you're editing the copy in those notes. Take it seriously when you have the opportunity to organize those notes in a way that makes sense from a story perspective or just make some easier to read, or you know you can put the quote of the day like the funniest pitch of the day at the top of the notes so that you know your personality is able to shine through.

Even though you're, you know, in this assistant position, you're still being given the opportunity to showcase your writing, even if it doesn't feel that way every day. So take advantage of it. 

Lorien: That's good advice. Now you said you have your opportunity to showcase your writing. Are you walking up to writers in the room and like, "Hey, will you read my script?"

Maggie: No. If it's relevant to the show that you're working on, I would say, you know, if you're having a slow moment in the season, which how often do those happen, but some, some rooms do require a little bit more of a formal pitching process. So if it's relevant to the show that you're working on, I would say, you know, maybe there's an opportunity there to have somebody look over the content ahead of time.

But yeah. 

Lorien: No, I mean an original that you've written, like a spec you have. 

Maggie: Let them offer, let them offer again, build organic friendships and relationships. Don't be that guy that's asking someone who's so busy to do something for you because, you know, you have to earn people's trust and you have to earn those favors by.

Again, being good at your job, being a decent human being and working hard. 

Lauren: Yeah, that feels like an after the room when they can ignore your email and, or say, "I'm in Hawaii and can't do this, sorry," without feeling awkward. 

Maggie: Or once you've become, once you've become friends to like have coffee with them afterward and then maybe slip that question in between seasons if it feels comfortable, but.

Lauren: I totally agree with you, Maggie, but yes, it is important to really pride yourself on the little details of the writers' assistant job. Like, I am someone who cares a lot about grammar and formatting, and that is good. Like, that is, you know, you're not just the placement of commas, but it is good to be proud of those all being correct as well.

And yeah, I would also, I just think back to when I was helping hire interns at Pixar, I was given the advice of pick someone that you are comfortable spending, like, 10 hours a day with because we're all doing a job, yes, but we're spending a lot, like, you're seeing these people more than your family.

You're watching them eat multiple meals a day and just knowing that, you know, just be kind and genuine and normal in way, no, not, not normal in a boring way, but just in ways that are are pleasant for someone to sit next to you or, you know, sometimes just like truly countless hours of your life.

Lorien: Yeah, these are all great advices. Thank you. So Maggie reminds me that the thing I am always the most needing from anyone I work with is, Be on time. Be on time. Be on time. Please be on time. Like that is my advice for anyone, anyone ever is be on time. For me personally, it's because I have crazy time issues, right?

And if people aren't there, I worry that I didn't tell them what time it started. And then I start to get all in my head and anxious. So Be on time. How many times did I say that, Maggie? Be on time. Always. 

Jonathan: Or early. 

Maggie: It's a respect thing. 

Lorien: Or what? 

Jonathan: Or early. I mean, I was always, I was always the first one in the room.

I just wanted to make sure I had everything organized, ready to go, document, like, pulled up, ready to take notes. Again, like, yes, the first 30 minutes or so, we weren't talking about, you know, that's whatever story we were breaking for that day, but something always came up. You know, that I, that I jotted down. So be early or on time. Just don't be late. 

Maggie: And time in general, when you're making TV is one of the spinning, one of the many spinning plates that you are triaging at any given moment. So it's, it behooves you to be on top of it. 

Lorien: Look at you, behooves, triage. I love the way you talk sometimes. 

Jonathan: Words, so many words.

Lorien: Words are good. I got words. Words. Jeff, you had, you had something. 

Jeff: There's this, there's this complicated thing as an assistant where to be excellent at your job makes you indispensable to your boss. But to be indispensable to your boss means you'll never move up. And that's a very difficult, complicated tightrope.

And I don't even have a question, but I'm wondering if any of you have something you can weigh in on here, because I've been in that position before, and part of you is like, if I were shittier at my job, maybe I could actually move on and get promoted. There's something very complicated about this. Do you agree?

Jonathan: Mm hmm. I'm smiling, because I like... 

Lauren: A good boss, I think that a good boss sees you as a writer from the beginning, and they know that, you know, you're not going to jump there immediately. But they know that's the goal, and, I mean, in my very first writers' assistant interview, having never been in a room, it was still acknowledged, even in the interview, that that was my goal, which felt so good, having been in production for as long as I had, and I think that it's, it shouldn't be on you to to worry about this issue, but ideally you're just working for somebody who you trust sees you as a person and as a writer and knows that you want to excel at the steps along the way, but will ultimately not try to trap you as their assistant for their own you know, formatting benefits. 

Maggie: Yeah, I totally agree, Lauren. I think yeah, any good boss is going to know that, you know, they're lucky to have you for a certain amount of time, but that is not a permanent amount of time.

And I always keep a little Rolodex in the back of my mind of all of my extremely qualified friends that are assistants and looking for work, just in case. And often, as we know, in these positions, you have to replace yourself if you do move on for one reason or another. But, you know, assistant roles used to be much more of an on ramp, I think, or at least that's what I'm told.

And because it was. shows are not as likely to get multiple, multiple seasons or not as likely to have quite as long with an order. People are really scared to take a chance, I think. And so if you're able to demonstrate that you are trustworthy, that you are stewarding the show along with the room that's your best bet.

But ultimately someone has to be willing to take a chance on you. And I think you said that to me, Lorien, actually. It's like, someone has to be willing to take a chance on you and you have proven yourself worthy young Jedi. And...

Lorien: Somehow that was about how awesome I am. I said that too, like, hey, you're so lucky it's me. You're welcome. Congratulations. I will say, you were in a position where you saved my life. Literally. Oh. Well, I mean, that, so it was like, well, you're gonna do this or I'm gonna die. So that's the threat. You're welcome. So... 

Maggie: Ditto, like I was at a point in my career where I needed, I needed a change. I needed a change of energy, a change of scenery. And you came along right at the exact moment in my life. 

Lorien: So, Jonathan, I want to hear your answer to this too, but something when you became a writers' assistant, I know age is an issue in Hollywood. I know there's this idea that writers' assistants are 22, fresh out of college. Maggie, is that your experience?

You don't have to say how old you are, but were you 22 when you got your first writers' assistant job? 

Maggie: I was not, absolutely not. And yeah, I think that is the stereotype that like, Oh, these are young people who have time, they have plenty of time in their careers and they can, you know, do this role for as long as I need them to do it because they're not, you know, they don't need to be lucratively employed elsewhere or whatever the case may be.

Right. And so many people have worked a decade or more to get into these rooms that, you know, maybe they were 22 when they started bright eyed and bushy tailed, but by the time they get the opportunities, they are beyond, beyond ready. So for any higher ups or showrunners listening, just be mindful of the fact that, especially if the people working for you are not like independently wealthy, they probably worked their butts off to get where they are, and they deserve to be there, and they deserve to move up.

Lorien: So, just as a point I had a whole career before I went to Pixar. I had been a professor, and a playwright, and an office manager, and I started as the director's assistant on Ratatouille, working with Jan Pinkava, and I was 35 years old. 

Lauren: That's cool, it's so cool when people have lived a life. Beyond what you see them doing. Sorry. 

Lorien: Yeah. I had to restart at Pixar. I started as a temp for an intern and rolling posters and proofing the Art of Cars book. And then I, and then I got a job as an assistant when I was in my mid thirties. And I did that and then I committed to that. But like that, it didn't seem weird to me at the time for some reason, but like, it's possible to not be 22 and to restart. 

Jonathan: I think there's something to be said about, about being patient and not coming into the room with any sort of sense of in entitlement. You know, I I was the writers' assistant for season one on Andi Mack and obviously wanted to be staffed for season two, as did our incredibly talented script coordinator.

For various reasons, neither of us were able to be staffed for season two. We stayed in our roles. Our showrunner each gave us an episode, which was great. We were lucky to get a season three. Again, we weren't able to be staffed. We stayed in the same roles. Again, she gave us an episode. So this is three years that went by and I was a writers' assistant the whole time.

And then, the show ended. And It wasn't until the showrunner got her next show and she called me and said, "Do you want to be a staff writer?" Which is a dream call. And she said you're going to have to help me find a writers' assistant though, and make sure you show her your notes. And so then it was a full circle thing where I was then the one sort of training the writers' assistant in that first room when I was a staff writer.

And I remember that first day, because I still had the writers' assistant mentality and I came in and I had my laptop open and I had to remind myself, "No, I don't, I don't have to, I'm not taking notes." I can just, and it's even, it's still there. I mean, throughout this entire conversation to be transparent as the co producer for this podcast, I take notes during, during the recording of the episodes, which I've not been doing this episode.

It feels, it feels like I'm not doing my job, even though we have fabulous interns who are, who are helping us with that. But it, that is still, still in there still in, in the, in my bones. 

Lorien: I, I still have that, you know, I used to take notes for the brain trust meetings, like, which is verbatim, which is like 25 people in the room.

So like on up, I was like taking all and then spending hours and hours and hours. What's important floating it up, sitting in all the meetings where everyone decided what to do. And sort of, I was the one who remembered all this stuff sometimes during meetings, I will find myself typing verbatim notes as like this weird nervous, you know, I got to remember this and I'm, I'm trying to capture every word.

It's like a safety thing or like a security thing in order to remember it. And some things like don't leave your body. So I totally get it. I try not to do it, and I certainly don't send them to anybody, because I'm sure that's just all typos now. I don't know what that would, again, no meaning. I just needed to talk and participate.

You're all such geniuses and wonderful, and I'm like, I want to talk too, but I got nothing to share, really. 

Well, you three, what a gift to have you on the show for our audience, but, you know, for me, and it's funny, Maggie, you brought up a point about when you go from a writers' assistant to a staff writer, and all of a sudden you don't have access to the showrunner in the same way, in the background, I thought, wow, what a scary transition, I hadn't even thought of that, that you have access to everything, you know, like, the politics, the budget, the like, why certain writers are getting certain things and all this stuff. And then all of a sudden you're like, okay, I guess I'll just focus on being in the room in my episode and how that feels like a cord has been tethered in a way. 

Maggie: Yeah. 

Lorien: How sort of that's how things are in this industry. You move from, it's just an interesting... I never thought of that. So thank you for that perspective. 

Maggie: Yeah. It's a very interesting moment to launch like that. So may all of us have that experience if we haven't already. 

Lorien: Right? Right? But I loved everything you all had to say and thank you for your time and being on The Screenwriting Life podcast with me and Jeff.