234 | Why Fairy Tales Are The Foundation For Modern Storytelling (ft. Kelly Younger)

To say that Kelly Younger is a fairy tale expert is an understatement. He's built an entire career around his obsession with fairy tale principles, so much so that he's become a coveted story consultant, and a frequent writer for THE MUPPETS universe, with credits on MUPPETS NOW and MUPPETS HAUNTED MANSION. Younger has developed at Amazon, Apple, Hulu, Disney Studios, Paramount Animation, Warner Animation Group, DreamWorks Animation, Disney Originals, and has also consulted at Skydance Animation, in addition to Illumination on both SHREK 5 and PUSS IN BOOTS 2.

So why should we care so much about a centuries-old art form? Today, Kelly breaks it all down.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve.

Lorien: And I'm Lorien McKenna. And today we're excited to welcome industry veteran Kelly Younger to talk about a timeless and foundational building block of Hollywood storytelling, fairy tales.

Meg: In addition to writing Candy Cane Lane, starring Eddie Murphy, he is the co-creator and co-EP of Muppets Now, as well as a co-writer and co-EP on Muppets Haunted Mansion, a big favorite in my house, which earned four Emmy noms, one Emmy win, and a PGA win for Outstanding Children's Programming.

Lorien: Kelly is also a valuable story consultant, especially in animated features, serving as a four year member of Disney's Animation Story Trust and a frequent participant in Pixar's Braintrust. He's currently writing a new animated feature for Skydance and is a professor at Loyola Marymount, where he teaches a seminar in Fairy Tales!

Welcome to the show, Kelly.

Kelly: Thank you very much. I'm super excited to be here.

Meg: Well, I'm so excited to dig into your brain and learn all about fairy tales. But first, we're going to do adventures in screenwriting. We'll let Lorien go first. How was your week, Lorien?

Lorien: My week was entertaining as always, but lately as I'm doom scrolling on Instagram, I've been noticing all these astrological things like Libra comes out of some dark time on November 19th.

So I was like, I don't know what any of that means. I don't believe in anything. I believe in everything. So I was like, great, that'll be my date. November 19th is the date when I come out of the bad times. And so I put my, I like, well, that was my marker in the sand. And so I've been very focused on, you know, Finishing this pilot I have to write and I just finished act one.

I'm very excited. That's 15 pages, everybody, 15 pages. So I have a deadline in two weeks that I've given myself and I've let everybody know so I will meet it. But the thing is that I realized I really love this project and I'm having fun writing it and I love the characters, and I have an outline. But I'm also allowing myself to discover the characters in each scene, which is helping me figure out how to move to the next piece.

Which is how I used to write. I just sort of lost it. I think I got too stuck in the outline or too stuck in the ramble. So I had to go back to this original place, but I'm feeling good about my writing. I mean, everything else is going up in flames, but whatever, but my writing is, I feel really good about it.

Yeah. And Meg, I think I texted you last week, I was like, I just wrote a scene and I'm such a fucking good writer and I'm trying to hold on to that.

Meg: Yes. Do.

Lorien: That's what I'm trying to hold on to.

Meg: You wrote a great scene. I have evidence. On my text. I can see.

Kelly, Kelly, how was your week?

Kelly: I had a, I had a pretty good week and I, I, I love that you always do this at the top of your podcast because we, my wife and I would do this with our kids a lot.

We learned this at their grade school. They'd call it the rose thorn and bud conversation. And we'd always ask the kids like, what was your rose today? What was your thorn today? What was the bud? What are you looking forward to? And so I feel like I had a great rose recently, which was Meg, I came to your open house at story house, got to visit you and Joe on, on the lot and, and reconnect with writer friends and meet some new ones.

So that was lovely and generous and I, I think what, what you're doing is just, just awesome. The thorny thing I'm working on, like, like you said, a new animated feature for Skydance. I'm co writing it and we had our rough assembly because we're gearing up for our third screening coming up.

And so it was, it was, it actually, it was successful in the sense of like we feel good about it, but it's such a thorny process. It's so prickly and so hard. And, and you think something's working.

Meg: Hence that word rough. Hence that word rough assembly. Yes.

Kelly: The word rough, like I think we should call it really rough assembly.

I think that would be more...

Lorien: We need to call it the rough ass.

When I was like, all right, I'm ready for the rough ass. Yeah.

Kelly: Yes. Yeah. And you just, you just, you just gotta get, gotta get through it. And then I did, the thing I'm looking forward to is I got to The midpoint on a new feature, a personal passion project of mine on a rewrite, so I got to the midpoint, so I felt really good about that.

Feels like a little milestone.

Lorien: Halfway there, and Act 3 is so easy. It just all comes together.

Kelly: So easy. It's so easy. It, as they say, it writes itself. Exactly. That, it's, so it's just a matter of time. Yeah.

Meg: What I loved when I worked with Kelly at Disney Animation when you, he would be in our brain trust is he was always so good natured and smiling.

And even if you're in the rough thorny part, yeah, gosh, it's just a special gift you give to the world is how, how positive you stay even I'm, I'm not this by the way. So I especially appreciate it. My week was you know, I'm in that place where I've been doing a lot of talking about story but I am feeling uncomfortable in my body and I couldn't figure out, maybe I'm just tired, which I think I am.

But then I saw there's a great Netflix docu series called Abstract, the Art of Design, where they go and meet. Different designers talk about their creative process. Morgan Neville who has done many, many award winning documentaries, is the documentarian who did it, so it's super high quality and amazing.

But in the very first one, it's a graphic designer and he talks about this, where you can get so into your deadlines and your projects and what you have to do and what you should be doing and how hard it is and how thorny it is and how rough it is. Especially for This point where I am, where you're not actually writing literally, or the dreamer is not participating that much other than maybe in an outline or a card on a wall.

And so what he does, which I would like to somehow put into my life, is he will free draw every single day, even just for 10 minutes, you know, he'll put something on his paper. Like a paperclip and then he'll trace it and now it has to become a thing. It has to become a person. It's a person on a bike. It's a--

And so just to get his creative dreamer artist flowing as he then moves back into his assignment and I thought, yeah, I think that's kind of what I'm hungry for. I'm hungry for like, every day for just 20 minutes. There's a line prompt and I have to write whatever comes into my head for 20 minutes, like an exercise, just to get that tap flowing.

Because in a weird way, I'm starting to get nervous about it. Cause I haven't been in it for so long that I'm starting to actually get nervous about, is it still there? Like, are the muses going to come? Like, and sometimes I don't know, my intellect can't come up with the story. I don't know. I don't know what my story is.

So. I'm not sure how to do it. Maybe we can send out prompts every week, even for our listeners. I don't know. Maybe that's too much to ask of us because I know we're overloaded, but I don't know. That's where I am. I need a, I need a little water in the dry riverbed. Here you go.

Lorien: And that's when the cleaning lady knew it was going to be a bad day.

Meg: Okay, that's my prompt for tomorrow. Tomorrow morning, I'm going to get up and do that one. I love your prompts.

Okay, let's jump in, because I can't wait to talk about fairy tales. Alright, so let's just start with a basic question, Kelly. You know, when did you become interested in fairy tales and why? Why is this part of your life so important?

Kelly: That, you sound like my father and that's okay. But that is, that's a really, it's a question I ask myself a lot.

Cause I, it is not something I started out imagining for myself. I actually, so I I I'm actually, I'm third generation, Los Angelino. I've been in Southern California a long time. My dad was a truck driver. My grandfather was a firefighter. And we, I grew up in a working class, Irish and Mexican family, and my parents barely finished high school.

Like education was not, not really something that everybody did. First generation of my family to go to college and it. You know, I, but I just was that kid who loved to read. I just loved reading. And I think a lot of you know, probably a lot of listeners can relate or probably on the more sensitive side, on the more quiet side, on the more introverted side and I, I really turned to books.

I just, I, I really loved it. And, but when I was young, my parents went through a big pretty bad financial time. And when we lost our house, it was a bad situation. And, but it was around the same time that this movie came out called Goonies. And when the Goonies came out and I saw it as a kid where these kids were going to lose their homes, right?

Like they were going to lose their homes. There was nothing they could do, and they, but they found a treasure map up in the attic, and then they went on this adventure, and there were riddles and water slides, and you know, they, they found the treasure that ended up saving their homes. And so, that movie really hit me at a really important moment in my life where I was going through a very sort of personal situation with that.

And then when Indiana Jones came out, and I was like, you know, And you get to fight Nazis? Like, this is the greatest job ever. Like, I am going to be an archaeologist, and I, genuinely, so that's what, that's what I did is I, I actually pursued archaeology. I was a classics major. You did too, Lorien?

Lorien: I was obsessed with archaeology. I even went to archaeology camp when I was in high school. So I'm interested in what your story is and why you pivoted over to storytelling, and if it's the same as mine.

Kelly: Yeah. So, I mean, I studied classics. I did, I did Greek and Latin. I did archaeology for four months in Northern Greece.

And I, the only thing I got was heat stroke. Like I didn't find the staff of Rod. There was no one eyed Willy pirate ship like, you know, and so I, I was, I was in graduate school in Chicago. for classics and I loved mythology. I loved the literature. And I was very close to considering going on to get a PhD in Egyptology and I had a moment where I said to myself, I think it's because I really liked the movie Stargate.

And I was like, I think I'm making career choices based on, based on movies. Like maybe that's something I should take a look at and think about. But really my, my, all of my studies had to do with stories. Again, I was an English major. I was a classics major, mythology, folk tales, theater, anything with books, anything with movies.

And I ended up not knowing what I was going to do. And I did the, let's keep going to school as a way to avoid having to figure out what you're going to do. And I got a scholarship to go study in Ireland. And I moved to Dublin for about three years. I still have family back in Ireland and that's very much part of my cultural upbringing.

But I ended up getting a PhD in literature with an emphasis in drama studies, but also in folk tales and fairy tales. So I literally did come home. My truck driving father was like, I'm sorry, you're going to do what, what are you going to do with that? And I didn't really have an answer. But, two things happened.

One is I was able to land a position as a teacher at. At Loyola Marymount, and I'm lucky enough to be there still and to lead writing workshops. And I do teach seminars in fairy tales and really sort of deep storytelling and deep, deep structure. But then also in my pursuit of, you know, I was a playwright for many years.

And, but this, my background led me, you know, one of the things that opened the door for me was at Disney animation, which obviously has a lot of history with fairy tales. So, That's, I mean, it was a really windy road. To get here that I was not actually steering myself very well along the way.

I just was kind of following the road and following the path. Not knowing where it was going to lead to, but I, I just needed to, I tried to just trust the fact that I was doing something that I really loved and brought me joy and, and felt like it was bringing meaning to myself and then eventually to others.

And so that's, that's how I kind of, you know, leaned into this specialization.

Lorien: So interesting. We have a lot of stuff in common. And I pivoted when I took a class in college on Bettelheim.

Kelly: Yes.

Lorien: And I realized I also love mythology and I had been trying to find the story. That's why I was so interested in archeology because I wasn't interested in the grids or the digging or the science or the note taking.

I wanted to figure out what the story was, what the life was. And so I was spending all my time making that up. And so it's similar under there sort of investigating why we're doing the way things were, why we're doing what we're doing and how we look at a character, like a character who's obsessed with the archaeology.

Why?

Kelly: Yeah, I love, I love what you said about, about under there too, this idea, because like I, even though I'm not an archaeologist anymore, I still find that everything I write is always, There's always a sense of digging. Like I'm always trying to dig out what's underneath, what's the treasure under there, you know, what, what's, what's underneath what can be found, I mean, and to me, I mean, that's kind of my, my lava metaphor is like digging down into the dirt to sort of find out what, what's hidden and what's buried.

I've never really lost that sense of my approach to story.

Meg: And how do you use fairy tales to do that now in your, in your writing, or if you're working with somebody else who maybe is overwriting or overthinking, like how, how do you use the fairy tale knowledge as your digging tool, I guess I would say?

Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question. And you know, everybody knows Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey and the mythic journey and the mega myth and like, and all of those really big you know, structural points that a lot of people try to hit in their projects.

For me. Fairy tale is very different. Like that, the Joseph Campbell stuff is to me, very, it's mythology, right? It's, it's larger, it's larger than life. The, and I think that that could be a good model. I think it could be really, it can be really helpful. And I even know you had Chris Vogler on as well, talking about this kind of hero's journey, how it's a good guide.

But for me, those heroes are superheroes. They're, they're larger than life. They, they, we look up to them. A lot of times they're immortal or invincible. And they kind of do the things that we only hope that we can do. For me, The fairy tale hero is much more of the underdog. It's much, it's often a kid, right?

It's often a kid who's at a disadvantage. And whereas the sort of mythic heroes, the superheroes are, are big, the fairy tale hero is little. And that's why it happens a lot. If you think about it, you know, in fairy tales, it was like the little mermaid, the little match girl, the little tailor, little red riding hood, the three little pigs.

The word little happens a lot in these tales because it's often, you know, if there's seven kids, it's number seven is the hero. If there's 12, it's number 12. It's always the runt. It's always the littlest one, the simpleton, the underestimated you know, the smallest, the most disadvantaged. This is why there's so many, you know, orphans and underdogs and abandoned and hungry and lost and abused.

Like all the terrible things that can happen to, to kids or people. That's really the bread and butter of fairy tales. So I find that whenever I'm working on a project or starting on a project, I do make a conscious choice of like, is this a kind of mythic journey? Is this sort of a larger than life journey or character that is doing things that the wish fulfillment is the audience going like, "Oh, I wish that I could do that?"

Or is this. Is this more of a of a heroic journey on, on that underdog scale where it is, you know, somebody that you don't think is going to live up to this or is going to make it, or is going to be strong enough and they're going to have to, you know, unintended, like they're going to have to go into the woods, right?

They're going to have to go into those dark, scary places. So I, on like a macro level, I'm always thinking about, first of all, Not just what genre is the story, but like sort of what, what big arena am I, am I in for this story? And to me that comes down to like where's my hero? Where's my hero starting?

And I'm, I'm just always drawn to those more fairy tale kinds of heroes, which is, you know, no one thinks this person's going to make it. No one thinks this person's gonna, gonna succeed. So that's one of the ways that I sort of draw on that knowledge.

Lorien: So fairy tales, right? We know all, we all know them and are familiar with them.

And it's really satisfying when you get an unexpected twist, whether it's a genre twist or a plot, you know, some other take. What are the challenges and joys of trying to reinvent? I don't know if it's reinventing or like a take on a fairy tale that's recognizable, but different enough and modern enough.

So it's that whole lean into the genre but subvert it thing.

Kelly: Yes. No, I totally know what you're talking about. And it's, I mean, I do think it is a challenge, but if you, I like to look at fairy tales as really simple recipe instructions. In the sense that, You know, I think if you're working on a pitch or even you're working on a treatment, go read 10 classic fairy tales.

They are, it's the perfect, it's the perfect pitch document, right? It's just, you get right into the story. You know immediately who these characters are. You are blowing through the pop, the plot points because that you know, the, it's not really the plot that matters in this moment. It's the, it's the emotion and it's the growth.

So I actually think. It's really helpful to turn to fairy tales when you're working on a pitch doc or, or, or even a treatment. I also feel like whatever story you might be working on is there a corollary? Is there like, is there an echo of a fairy tale? You know, make a list of your own favorite fairy tales and you might be surprised to go, Oh my God, I didn't realize I did, I wrote a Cinderella story or I wrote a Beauty and the Beast story.

One of the things that I love doing is if I'm called in to, you know, a round table or a story meeting or something is I, and it's just how my, my head works is I just, I like, it helps me to look for comparisons or to look for where I might've seen this a bit before. And not that that means that what you're doing isn't original, but I remember when I was working on Ralph breaks the internet and as always struggling with act two and Ralph and Vanellope going to the internet and I said to the trust I said well we we realized that this is really just Hansel and Gretel right like Ralph and Vanellope going into the internet is really Hansel and Gretel going into the woods and so We gotta lean into the, there's no turning back, the breadcrumbs are gone, we gotta like, we're gonna, we're gotta go someplace scary, and we gotta get separated and all these kinds of things.

And so I, I mean it annoys my children, but I, you know, I love seeing movies. and figuring out what the, what the, you know, what the connection might be. You know, the 'The Shape of Water' is Beauty and the Beast. I also think 'A Star is Born' is Beauty and the Beast. I think Ex Machina is a version of Bluebeards.

So I think, you know, there's lots of, there's lots of fun ways. And maybe, maybe these filmmakers are not intentionally doing that. But I think that I think a lot of really successful movies. Tap into those really primal storytelling experiences that fairy tales tackle. And, you know, a lot of people think fairy tales are just about happy endings. Right, and that they're not real. And there's a funny saying, which is “life is not a fairy tale. If you lose a shoe at midnight you're drunk.” Right? Like it's just, that's just not how that's not how life goes.

Meg: How dare you!

Kelly: But I, you know, there. where there is this Wonderful thing about fairy tales, which is the once upon a time promises a happily ever after. It promises that it will work out.

And that doesn't always mean a fairy tale ending. It doesn't mean a marriage or a wedding. You know, there's different versions of that.

To me, a fairy tale is a promise, especially to a kid, that you are going to face dark times. You are going to face difficulties. You are going to go through this on your own. There might be helpers along the way. There might be mentors, there might be some magic items, but at the end of the day, you got to go through this. You got to go into the woods. But you will emerge out of them, changed, transformed better, and everything that you need is already inside you. Every tool that you need, it, it's gonna be your own, it's gonna be your own cleverness, it's gonna be your own ingenuity, like that, that's, those are the tools that are gonna help you get out of here.

So, I think that I'm always trying to, Look for those core elements of a story, because I think that still works today, even if you're writing something that has nothing to do with a fairy tale, right? Fairy tales are, like you know from Bettelheim, they're trying to alleviate anxieties, right? Like starvation anxiety and separation anxiety is such a big one, right?

Like, this is why so many fairy tales start with kids getting kicked out of the home. Right? Like, there's no better way to start a story than kicking a kid out or killing a parent, right? Or both of them, right? Like, it's that fear of separation so I think in, in the stories that we're all telling, it's helpful to think about, you know, Not only what are, what are the wishes that I'm trying to fulfill for my audience, but what, what are the anxieties that are, are going on here?

You know, people are afraid still of being separated, being, being without, being left behind, you know, being in pain, being lost, you know, all, none of those things, they don't go away just because we get older. They just get buried.

Lorien: I would argue that they just get a little, just a little bit worse maybe.

Kelly: Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

Lorien: So what do you, when you're working on something, do you start with the fairy tale or are you digging into something trying to uncover what it is and then sort of it comes to you what story you're telling?

Kelly: I, I try and I say this knowing that I think you and, and a lot of others would agree that every, every project is different, every story is different, and sometimes you don't always start in the same place in the same way, but I always try to start with a theme and a question. I usually try to start from a place of either...

What is it that I want to write about? Or what is it that I'm trying to figure out? What big question do I have that I truly, sincerely do not know the answer to? And so I can go on a journey with my own characters to try to figure this out because it's something that I actually want to know in my own life.

So I start more in that question and theme area, which is a very fairytale way to begin, right? Like with, with mythology, mythology is all about monsters, right? You know, this is what a volcano is. This is what lightning means. This is where the earth comes from. Like, you know, mythology is a lot about explanations and, and, and explaining answers to us.

Whereas I do think fairy tales are much more about these fundamental questions. You know, who am I? Whose am I? Where do I belong? What am I meant for? Will I survive? Am I strong enough? Am I capable? You know, and I, so this is why I always like to start with the question because it feels, that, that helps propel me and, and put some fuel in the engine to the story because we're, we're trying to, you know, we're trying to figure something out.

And that's where I think, you know, fairy tales come in handy. I don't know that I very specifically go, “Oh, I am going to do a new version of Rumpelstiltskin”. But what I do find is as I'm writing, I will stop and go, Oh, this is a Cinderella moment of this character just really wants to be picked, or this is a Sleeping Beauty moment where this character, if they could just go and hide, they would, because they just want, they want this difficulty to kind of just go away after they wake up.

And it, they're just little reminders for me of what my character might be going through in that way. But I don't know that I specifically set out and go, I'm just going to rewrite, rewrite this, this version of something, you know?

Lorien: So for, you know, most fairy tales that the updated ones, right, the original fairy tales were all very dark, right?

She fell into a well, right? And then yes, Anderson came and reframed them, right? Like the Grimm brothers were dark. Yeah. Hans Christian Anderson was like, happy endings.

Kelly: Yeah.

Lorien: Mythology usually ends in some punishing way, like Prometheus and Sisyphus, right? So what if I want to use the sort of fairy tale structure, but I don't want a happy ending or I'm writing a TV show that does not resolve?

Kelly: Yeah, well, that's another great question. So a couple things come to mind. I think most people know, yes, the Grimm's were grim. I mean, that's why that's where we get the word grim, right? So violent, so bloody same with, you know, the same with a lot of these early folktales. And if you can believe it, the Grimm's actually tidied some things up.

Even there, there were even some things that I thought this is, this is too much for them because they were, they were writing, they were collecting the folktales, the oral, the oral stories. So, they even, you know, made some edits to make it a little more palatable because the originals were, were even darker and more disturbing in like a really delicious way, right?

And the funny thing is Hans Christian Andersen actually did not provide the happy ending. He was brutal.

Lorien: Oh really?

Kelly: His endings? Oh my god, Little Mermaid dies.

Lorien: Oh right, oh right, right.

Kelly: Like, yes, he was, he made children suffer, right?

Lorien: Where did this come from, this happy ending?

Kelly: Well, I think that the happily ever after did come from those original folk tales, because, these original stories, they weren't always about riches and wishes and power.

They were really about justice. Fairy tales, at their core, are so much more about justice than anything. And, also, fairy tales have less to do with the heart and more to do with the stomach. Fairy tales, there's so much about food and devouring and being devoured and kids getting baked into pies and people getting pushed into the witch's ovens.

And like, it's all this sort of delicious fear. You know, like, if you go to bed hungry, you're going to dream not only about eating, but being eaten, right? So there's all these fears that are wrapped up in really delicious pies. But you know, Fairy tales are, they're much more concerned about, about justice.

And, I do, I think we do, especially kids, a disservice when we sanitize them or clean them up. Because we think, “oh my gosh, I can't, I can't share this story with these kids. It's too, it's too violent.” But those are everyone's favorite parts! Like the kids love the favorite, like they love those moments where the wicked get punished and get what's coming to them.

My personal favorite fairy tale is the three little pigs, and it's so simple on the surface, but it's really, really complex and you know, it's, you know, the Disney movie from 30, 1934 or something, you know, one little pig, the house gets blown down and they run to the second little pig and then the house gets blown down and then they all go to the third pigs and then all three little pigs are in there.

And then the wolf comes and comes down the chimney and, and he lands on a hot pot of water. And then the wolf runs away. Well, in the original story, the wolf eats the first little pig, then the wolf eats the second little pig. But it's the third pig who learns from those mistakes, who is now clever and can think ahead, who plans for the wolf.

And so when the wolf comes down the chimney, he cooks up the wolf. He kills the wolf, cooks him up, and eats the wolf. Which is so great, but there's this cool thing, which is that the third pig eats the wolf, but who else is in the wolf's belly? The other two little pigs. So it's this kind of wonderful, I know! It's like a weird pig turducken wolf thing, I don't know what's going on, but like, but it's this kind of wonderful metaphor of like, you know, there isn't three little pigs, there's one, you know, it's like it's a three different stages of life and then learning and growing. But also the wolf is within and you know, devouring the wolf and what's more frightening to a child, eating the wolf, or if the wolf runs away, we know the wolf is still out there. That to me is more terrifying.

So I think that, you know, fairy tales lean much more into a sense of justice, and where the wicked really are punished, and I think it was Chesterton who said something like, Children are innocent and love justice, while most adults are wicked and prefer mercy. And so, I think, you know, I just think there's something really wonderful and delicious in that.

So like, in our own work, you know, lean into those grim, grim situations. Because if, if that's what you gotta do to get to justice, I think that, I think the audience eats it up.

Meg: I love that quote so much. Wow, it's amazing. What for you, can you discuss some of the characteristics of fairy tales?

Kelly: Yeah. So you know, some of these are probably pretty obvious, but it might help to think about them.

But so first, first and foremost, they're short, right? Fairytales are super short. They're easy to digest. They're easy to follow. And that's because they came out of an oral tradition. And so they had to be, you know, you had to be able to memorize them and to paraphrase them. The other thing that I think is really interesting about fairytales is that they're generic, right?

We rarely get names of characters in fairy tales. It's always the baker, the cobbler, the queen, the ogre, right? Like there's, they're all kind of a generic persona, which I think is smart because we then project ourselves onto them. Right. But it's very rare that we actually get names like Hansel and Gretel and Brian Rose and Rumpelstiltskin, like for the most part, it is these very generic titles.

The other thing too, about fairytales is that they're always in the past that once upon a time. It's always, it's never here and now, it's always there and then, you know, in the land of milk and honey or over the rainbow in a galaxy far, far away.

Which, by the way, even though Joseph Campbell did so much on Star Wars, I think it's a fairy tale. It's not, it's not mythology.

But so there's, you know, they're always set in the past, which I think helps disarm an audience. So they feel like, well, this takes place a long time ago. This has nothing to do with me. Right. You kind of let it lets their guard down in an interesting way. And as you know, they're very universal with their emotions and experiences.

They're powerful because like I said, you know, you never, never talk down to the hero. The hero themselves are little to begin with. So it's all about them becoming more powerful, like stepping into their own being chosen, getting the golden ticket, removing the sword from the stone, you know, getting the invitation to the ball having the shoe fits, all, you know, getting the invitation and being told you're a wizard Harry, right?

Like these are, these are those fairy tale elements that I think are so powerful because what you're saying to the hero and to your audience is you are special, you are chosen, you are destined for something greater than yourself. You will get out of this, you will get out of this situation. So that's, I mean, those are again, kind of like, broad, broad strokes of a fairy tale.

But again, like I was saying earlier, I think reading them can be so helpful for writers because there's, there's no, there are very few adjectives. There's very, there's not a whole lot of flowery language. It's just, they're just very simply telling a bedtime story. And I think that's helpful, especially when you're working on a pitch, right?

Like, you, I find it beneficial to pitch like you're telling a fairy tale around the campfire, right? Like you're just, you're getting right into it and what matters and you're not pitching it like a movie or a TV show, but you're pitching it. You're telling a story. You're really telling a story. 

But to go back to what you asked, Lorien, about the endings, you know. If, in my opinion, a fairy tale, if one of these dark fairy tales does not have a happy ending, it's basically a horror short story. That's where I think horror, horror actually comes from fairy tales.

It's just, it's just fairytale without the happy ending. Right. Which is a great genre, but you know, I think there's a lot. There are different varieties of what happy, happily ever after means for characters, right? It does not mean the traditional wedding, right? It can be, but I think there's always some kind of marriage in a sense of marriage of minds, marriage of a relationship or a new understanding of the self or, you know, the character is stepping into a new situation, right?

It doesn't have to be everything is perfect. In fact, again, that's not how life is, but I think that, you know, sometimes emerging from a story and being bruised and battered by it. But knowing that you made it through and knowing that you can continue to take a next step forward is, to me, is a really, that's a happy ending to me.

Meg: So if we wanted to bring our own personal experience to a fairy tale, where does that dovetail for you?

Kelly: That's really interesting because again, in the same ways that you talk about lava and not being not only not being afraid of it, but actually running, running towards it. I think if you know, you might know what your lava is or where it's located. And to me for the fairy tale, it's, you know, what's in those woods? What's off the path, right?

Because if you stay on the path yeah, maybe you'll make it, but there won't be any story, right? Like we wouldn't have little red riding hood if the first thing she didn't do was immediately stray from the path. So I think, if you know what your own personal fears are, I think mustering the courage to not just face those fears, but to like go hunting for them, to go seeking them out.

That’s where I feel like the territory, the creative territory is, at least for me. And like I said, everything I write about is about home or coming home or saving a home or trying to make people feel at home and, the only way I know how to do that is almost all of the stories that I write are about the very first thing that happens is they leave home or home is under threat or home is in disarray.

And so I have to constantly be putting myself back in that childhood situation of like, you are going to lose your home and nobody knows what to do. And the people that you look up to for the answers do not have the answers. And so you are going to have to figure this out. And so I think if you, as a writer, know what scares you and lots of things scare you in different ways in different times.

You might always write about the same fear, or you just might write about the fear that you're currently facing. But I feel like if you have the courage to go into those metaphorical woods, looking for the wolf, looking for the ogre, looking for the creature, the dragon, the monster, it's actually, it has more to do with you than you might think, that's a way that I think you can tap into it.

And I, you know, I, I've always said it takes courage to be human and it takes a lot of courage to be a writer. And I think trying to muster that courage to, to go in and face those fears alone is a really wonderful thing to do for yourself, but also for others, because the people who resonate with your story are the ones who are going like, "I'm really afraid of that same thing, and I want to go with you on this journey to see, to see through you, through your characters, how I can make it through the other side."

Meg: It's interesting because I've been looking into a type of therapy called family systems. The philosophy being you have many different you's inside of you. You have one that might be eight, you have one that might be, you know, I call them the Viking who arrives though. The other day someone said, how old is the Viking? I was like, oh shit, I don't think he's very old.

But it's interesting because you're talking, I'm like, Oh, I wonder who holds the fear. I think sometimes we have to let go of our adult self who doesn't, you know, want that survival adult, adult self. Who's like, I'm fine intellectually. I don't need to go towards my fear. I don't, there's no reason for me to do that.

And let the piece of you that does still hold that fear have a moment to come forward. And you know, so if you, how would you instruct a student to explore what they fear through fairy tales? Like if you say ogre, wolf. You know, and once we start to figure out what our fear is, is there any kind of way that you like to figure out what fairy tales would be helpful in terms of, let's say you're afraid of a home, losing home, just to use yours?

Is there any kind of database or thing that you would go to? To say this fairy tale, these are all the fairy tales that would be relevant to that for our, to read as a tool once you figure out what your fear is. So how do we figure out our fear? Using fairy tales and then what can we do to read other ones about it?

Kelly: Yeah, that's a really wonderful question. There is a website called Sur La Lune, I think it's S-U-R L-A L-U-N-E, and it's a massive database of fairy tales that have the actual tales, there's annotations to help explain what's going on, then there's illustrations, there's interpretations, then there's a lot of like, oh, and this fairy tale pops up in all these contemporary ways, so.

That's a really good source. If you're looking for you know, what, something to work on or a way to get some insight into your own work. I think that in thinking about what your, you know, what your fear might be is, you know, ask yourself, if you were to embody this fear in a fairy tale character, what would that be?

Would it be a wolf? Would it be a witch, an ogre, a dragon, a ruler, an unjust ruler? Would it be a troll under a bridge? Right? Like what might that character be? And then go through and and do a little research and figure out like why is it that these trolls always show up in these kinds of stories or why is it that, you know, dragons in these types of stories always, you know, sort of act a certain way? And they tend to, at least in western tales, like, they're hoarders right like they're, all they do is hoard things so if you're imagining a dragon then what, you know, what is it that you're hoarding or afraid of losing, right?

Or if a wolf or something with sharp teeth tends to recur in, in the villains that you imagine, you know, that has everything to do with being eaten or being devoured. So what are you, what are you afraid of? What's overwhelming you or what might be about to eat you alive? Because it's probably not something external, it's probably something inside you.

And so the more you can, the sooner you can figure that out, the better. But I think again, you know, buy an anthology of collected fairy tales or find them online and, and just you know, like a prescription, like read one a day. They take 30 seconds to three minutes, right? And just read one because everybody, you know, everyone knows the greatest hits, but there are thousands of these other stories out there that have not been made into movies and that are not really well known.

And, you know, you might come across the turnip princess and be like, and this is me like, Oh my God, I didn't realize I'm turnips! And it takes Two minutes to read this thing. So I think creating that habit of reading things with no expectations, right? I know we do this a lot where it's like, oh God, I've got to watch this show because everyone's talking about it.

Or I've got to read this thing because everyone's talking about it. Or I'm writing in the genre. So I've got to read 25 scripts in the genre. And it feels a bit like homework. I think if you just had a collection of fairy tales by the side of your bed and it was like first thing in the morning you read one or last thing before you go to bed at night and read one and just if you put a little annotation in what you're reading even just a positive or negative about the tales that you liked or the tales that you didn't like you'll start to notice the themes that emerge, right? Like you as a reader of these tales will start looking for things, or that the same themes will keep popping up for you, because that's what you're working on yourself.

So I just think it's a good little exercise that doesn't need to feel like homework.

Meg: I have one other quick follow up, which is, is it ever, you know, how the sometimes they say in dreams is if a shark is chasing you turn around and face the shark. In fairy tales, because everything in your dream is you, right?

You're the shark, right?

Kelly: Yeah, yeah.

Meg: In fairy tales, is it ever your strength that's kind of been warped out into something? Like, are there positive things sitting in that ogre too, or is it really just fear?

Kelly: I think there are a lot of positive things, and I also subscribe to that. Interpretation of dreams model, which is everybody in the dream is you, every single character, every animal, every object, it's all you.

It's a different part of you trying to make sense of the world or whatever that you're going through. And you know, these early fairy tales are basically dreams that have been written down. And on the one hand, you're right. It's a lot about fears and anxieties and turning around and facing the shark. But the other thing that I love is that even if your character gets a magic object or magic shoes or a magic wand or magic words, those still only get you so far that when it really comes down to the climax of the fairy tale of, is this character going to make it or not?

It's always something that's already within them. It's always their own cleverness, ingenuity, compassion. There are these wonderful tales where, you know, the lost character in the woods can't find their way out, but they stop and they help little ants do something. And then they stop and they help little birds do something. And then they stop and they help little frogs do something. And then when that character is in the dungeon of the ogre, guess who comes to help them? The little ants and the little birds and the little frogs, like the compassion that they showed comes back to them.

And so we learn that even the smallest character can show compassion to those who are smaller than they are, and that comes full circle, and they are also the ants. They're also the birds. They're also the frogs.

These are all little parts of themselves that they're trying to learn how to make one complete self, right? And just when you go, I've got myself together, then something else happens and you start over with a totally new story and you know, everything falls apart and you’ve got to go on another journey to rebuild it.

That's what's, you know, that's the storytelling life.

Lorien: My mind is busy right now, busy, like, checking through all of my projects. Of course, because it all comes back to me. But when you're writing and you're working on a character introduction, what do you do when you're introducing a character? How does that work for you?

Kelly: When I'm introducing a character, I try to introduce them in action. I try to introduce them doing something, doing something that they love. I tend to think about it– I love these moments, which I call truly private moments, which is when the character is alone and there's nobody else looking at them or watching them or knowing what they're doing.

And I always wonder like, what might my character be doing in a truly private moment? Something that they really love that is special and small and meaningful to them? So when I introduce a character, again, I try to show them in action, and then almost immediately I have them trip, or something happens that they, their action gets interrupted, and now that I'm thinking about it, that's kind of a fairy tale device, which is normally there's always like once upon a time there were three pigs and their mother had no food to feed them anymore. So she kicked them out of the house and threw them on the road like that. We just get one sentence and we're like, okay, these four little pigs have got, just got kicked out. There's no more food. They've got a problem. They’ve got nowhere to go. And so I do find that I try to put my characters in danger, well, in trouble, as soon as possible, right?

It depends on what, I mean, what's that old saying? Like, “drama is a character in danger and comedy is a character in trouble”. And so, I try to put them either in danger or in trouble almost, almost immediately to interrupt their activity or their status quo.

Meg: So good. You're, you immediately give them a problem so they can become active and have a want and just start moving.

Kelly: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Meg: What do you do when, what do you do when you get stuck on a story?

Kelly: Well a couple things, um, I cry, I berate myself, I drink too much coffee, I call people and complain, I quit. I do all those things. I do try to turn to other stories. And do that thing of like, how did they do it? How did they do this thing that I loved? Why can't I figure this out? Is there anything out there that I can, I can look at and remind myself like, right, when this thing happens to your character, this often is the next thing that can happen that can complicate it or ease the tension or increase the pressure.

The other thing that I do whenI get really stuck, the wonderful playwright and screenwriter Jose Rivera wrote this beautiful, beautiful piece called 36 Assumptions About Playwriting. And one of them has always stuck with me, which is when you have writer's block, it's because you lied somewhere.

It's like, what the hell does that mean? And he goes on to explain that, somewhere in what you've written earlier, you either, or something, or you cheated a little bit, or you weren't really being honest with what your character should be doing. And your brain, your creative brain, is actually stopping you from going forward, because it's calling you on your bullshit, and going, “I'm not going to let you write another page, until you go back and tell the truth, that you skipped over seven pages earlier, because I know you lied, you know you lied. You got to go back and fix it.”

And so whenever I get a little jammed up, I do try to go back and be really honest with myself and go, all right, where did I, where was I just like, oh, nobody will notice if I just do this or where if I just kind of skip over that and, and then I got it. Hang out in that territory and be like, what is, what's the really honest thing for my character to do here?

And more often than not, once I go back and tell the truth in that moment, it breaks me out of that. And then I can move forward.

Meg: God, I love that. I've got to go look this up. '36 assumptions about playwriting'. We got to look that up.

Kelly: '36 assumptions about writing plays'. Yeah. There's so many little gems in there. It's really great.

Meg: I'm very interested when you're doing a project with beloved, very well known characters like the Muppets, I'm so jealous, I'm a Kermit fan from way back and I see behind you are all the Muppets on the-- I'm so jealous-- Animal.... and so when you do something that is a beloved character or characters in world, how do you A, make it your own and B, keep it fresh and feel new?

Kelly: That is the question. And you know, it's funny, as I do this, the Animal puppet that is behind me is my Animal puppet from first grade when I was in the first grade talent show and I performed with Animal. So lifelong Muppet fan and the fact that I get to write for them and work for them now is a dream come true.

There's there's five principal performers. They, on Muppets Haunted Mansion, they all signed my first grade Muppet Show lunchbox for my birthday, and they are the best. And you're right, these characters are iconic, and it's really challenging to write for them because they've been around for over sixty years, and everybody has certain expectations of them.

What I, I figured out a couple of things. Sometimes, because I was old and educated in this, sometimes I learned it the hard way, but that... they, you know, it's hard to write for the Muppets because they don't have a lot of facial expression options. Right? Like, and so there's a very particular way that you have to write for them, which is they, they basically always say what they're thinking because you can't really do a whole lot of performance, interior life, subtext stuff because they just like, just the way that the characters are designed, there's not a whole lot of room for that.

So that's why there's always so many wonderful, like, asides, dead pan, looking right at the camera, right? All that kind of all that kind of fun stuff. The other thing I learned is that, you know, they're very much like a theater troupe. I mean, the Muppet, the Muppet show, the Muppets are, they really are a theater troupe and Kermit at the center of all of it is, as I've been told from my Muppet writer mentor, Jim Lewis, is that, you know, Jim Henson was the great appreciator.They referred to Jim as the great appreciator. 

And no matter who you were, or what you did, or what weird talent you had, or what quirky personality trait you had, Jim appreciated you, Kermit appreciated you, and found a place for you, and found a place for you in the show, and so whenever I write for them, you know, on the one hand, production is really difficult because the sets are raised.

There's only a limited number of performers who perform multiple characters. So, you know, the same Eric performs both Fozzie and Miss Piggy. So it's a real challenge to have Fozzie and Piggy in the same scene at the same time. So we have to do all these creative things, creative ways to do that.

So but what's also wonderful about them is because they're so... they lead, the characters lead with their heart, you know, how they're going to react to everything in their own quirky, particular way, right? And I, Frank Oz, I believe, said this incredible thing about Miss Piggy, which just captured her character, which I think it was something like, “Miss Piggy's mother had 16 nipples and she was born 17th”. Which you just go, oh my god, I get that character. She's starving for attention, affection. She's competing, and you're like, I totally get that character now. And so each of the Muppet characters has a long backstory, but they've also got these little gems of like, that is exactly who this character is.

And so, you know, you know how to write for them. And, you know, every time I've ever taken a Muppets quiz like which Muppet are you? And I'd love to know which Muppets you think you are. But I always get Fozzie. Right? Which I don't, because I'm not a comedian, but I do, you know, if I'm being honest, like I'm out there like trying to please the audience and I'm probably a little too earnest and I'm probably a little bit like, you know, come on, I hope you like this.

And then I've also got, you know, Statler and Waldorf, who are my own inner critics. Constantly traumatizing me by, you know, by heckling and shouting things and, you know, trying to disrupt, you know, and it's, you know, they're, Statler and Waldorf are really fun to write for too, but it's also traumatic because they are the voices of my inner critics. I hear them, I hear them all the time, you know.

Meg: What does it mean that as a kid, those are the puppets I wanted that they never made? They never made those two puppets. Those are the, those are the two I wanted. I don't know what that says about me.

Kelly: They're so obnoxious and wonderful because they're, they're just kill joys.

And that there's something funny about that because they also, they hate it, but they love it. They're at every show. They're there at every single show, you know, and they say your worst fears and like turning around and punching the shark. Sometimes it's nice to hear your worst fear articulated, you know, like I'm imagining I can hear, you know, um, “Hey, this podcast isn't half bad.” “Yeah, it's all bad!”

 You know, it's I just, you hear that all the time.

Meg: And there's something weirdly, it's like a fairy tale. Like that show survives that it survives these, this, these voices coming at it all the time and they still rise to the occasion. And they're all together as a family and they can be up there grumbling away.

It doesn't matter. I just think it's so wonderful. Yes, this has been wonderful. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. We have our last three questions that we're going to ask you before we go. The first one is what brings you the most joy? when you write or about writing?

Kelly: Well, it's interesting because for me, Candy Cane Lane was all about bringing joy.

And the theme of that movie was comparison is the thief of joy. And I really struggled with that because it was such a labor of love, and so much about joy, but also it was a challenge. There was the writer's strike, there was the actor's strike and I'll share with you personally that during production, my mother was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and did not live to see the movie.

Meg: Oh, I'm so sorry.

Kelly: That was all about joy. That thing, it was all about joy. They put a very lovely special credit to my parents in the film. But what brings me joy is sharing personal stories that also include the grief, the lava, the woods, right, the like, you know, getting through that, getting through that is the part that brings me joy and I feel like joy is a labor of love.

It's something you got to work at, and work for, and then the minute you got it, you got to give it away, you got to share it. Otherwise it's not. It's not joy at all.

Lorien: I don't know, your optimism is bumming me out, man.

Meg: I told you! I told you! Isn't he wonderful to have around?

Lorien: Like, okay, I'm gonna go for the real, okay, what pisses you off about your writing?

Kelly: What pisses me off? I mean, a lot of it does, right? It's really fucking hard. It's really hard, and it's really lonely, and it's really an exercise in insecurity, and you think something is good and it's not, and then you think something is better and it's not, and you gotta keep rewriting it, and you think you know what you're doing, and that never changes, you know?

And every time I meet a young writer, or an aspiring writer, or someone who's kind of new to it, you know, I see them look at me sometimes, like, what's the secret? And I'm like, there's no secret, like it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily get better or easier. I mean, it gets better. It doesn't get any easier.

And so, you know, the part there's the grind, you know, it really is a grind, but what a great, what a great job, you know? I don't want to be an orthodontist. I'm sure orthodontists are great, but like, I just, you know, I'm, I'd rather be trying to fix and correct and straighten words, then, then...

Jeff: Now, sorry, we're going to get messages like, “I'm an orthodontist!”

Meg: No, we're not, because everybody understands what you mean. Orthodontists have a calling, it's not your calling.

Kelly: It's not my calling.

Meg: Teeth are not your calling.

Jeff: Yes. I have a lot of lava around orthodontia, because my first orthodontist had my braces on for six years, and then was sued for malpractice because he did not have his license and didn't know what he was doing.

Kelly: Oh my god!

Jeff: So I had to get them taken off and get new braces put on, like for my freshman year of college.

Lorien: Oh god.

Jeff: So this is, I think it's a very apt metaphor, personal. Well our last question, Kelly, is if you could go back and have a coffee with your younger Younger, what advice would you give to him?

Kelly: That... oh, there's a lot.

But I would you know, I've got, I do have, I have one thing that I keep on my desktop at all times. And it is, it's a quote from Tennessee Williams. And I think I would read this to young Kelly Younger. 

I think this Tennessee Williams quote is from his biography written by James Grissom. And I don't know what James Grissom asked him, but I think it was something about, like, why write, or what matters in writing. He must have suggested something. But knowing what I shared with you earlier about home and how home is so important to me and everything I write is about home.

I do, I read this almost every day. And this is what Tennessee Williams says.

"Oh, Jesus, I have to stop you right now. I love you dearly. You're a smart and sweet man, but you are so wrong about what matters and where the eyes should visit. The things you find so important, the attention, the prizes, the approval, yes, they matter, and never so much than when they disappear.

But I'm old now, and I've walked a long and rocky road. And what really mattered, what should matter most to you, is the rare and gorgeous experience of reaching out through your work and your actions and connecting to others. A message in the bottle thrown toward another frightened, loveless queer, a confused mother, A recently dejected man who can't see his way home.

We get people home. We let them know that we're here for them. This is what art can do. Art should be the arm and the shoulder and the kind eyes, all of which let others know you deserve to live and to be loved. That is what matters, baby. Bringing people home."

Meg: Woo! Holy smokes, that's amazing.

Lorien: Yeah, I'm gonna go write my comedy now. Thanks so much.

Kelly: Comedy brings people home.

Meg: It sure does.

Kelly: Comedy brings people home.

Meg: One of the best ways.

Lorien: It does.

Jeff: I also love, Kelly, that you thought about it for a minute. You're like, you know, there is one thing, and then you proceed to give, like, the most concise and succinct monologue that is the perfect answer for that.

I mean, Tennessee Williams, he was an okay writer, I guess, but…

Kelly: He was okay, but I do, I feel like, too, like, find those, you know, what do you wish was written on a freaking billboard? That you pass every day on your way to work or school or whatever. Like, and you just need to be like, there's my billboard, there's my north star, there's my sign and just put that on a post it note and put it on your desktop.

Because when, the days that I feel joyful about writing, I look at that and I go, I'm bringing people home. And the days that I feel awful about writing and I look at it and I go, try it again tomorrow. Your job is to get people home. So I, you know, that's where I want to be. And thank you, to push the metaphor, for making me feel so 'at home' on your podcast.

Meg: I think it's so amazing that both your fear is also your driving gift to others. You want them to go home the way that, I just think that's such a beautiful idea that it's both in one. The fear isn't something to get rid of, it's holding, it's holding the jewel inside of it for what you can give to other people.

Kelly: Yeah, yeah. It's the little grain of sand inside the oyster that, you know, it's got to grow, become the pearl.

Lorien: Love it.

Meg: Kelly, thank you so much for being on the show. Incredibly profound.

Lorien: Thank you.

Kelly: My pleasure.

Meg: Thanks so much to Kelly for joining us on today's show.

Lorien: And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.