235 | Mike Jones (Soul, Dream Productions) Returns: What Makes a Great Act 3?

Pixar story genius Mike Jones gets candid with Meg about endings: what makes a great ending, and more important, what makes an emotional ending. Meg and Mike also discuss selfish characters, narrative feature film engines, and how to keep our storytelling fresh when we feel like we're locked in the same old patterns. DREAM PRODUCTIONS, which Mike developed (and even helped direct!), is on Disney+ now.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. Lorien can't join today, but I'm thrilled to be welcoming Mike Jones back to the podcast. Mike Jones has been a writer and story consultant at Pixar Animation Studios since June of 2013, and joined the studio full time in March of 2017.

He co wrote Pixar's Academy Award winning feature "Soul" and "Luca", and has served on the brain trust of many other Pixar films. Most recently, Mike wrote, directed, and executive produced the original series, "Dream Productions". Which was inspired by the world of "Inside Out". And as the series director, Jones oversaw all creative aspects of "Dream Productions" while also directing the series finale.

In his capacity as the studio's senior and creative artist, Jones also works with other directors to develop their story. I worked with Mike at Pixar when I wrote on the first "Inside Out", and have been so honored to have him as a friend and colleague ever since. And when you write at Pixar, One of the best things is going to lunch with other writers in the building who are working on other movies, and we'd always end up getting into craft challenges, story math, or some insight into writing, or desperately needed insight into writing that we have, have in wrestling our own movies.

So today we thought it would be fun if we approach the show as Mike and I sitting down at a Pixar cafeteria and talking story. We definitely are going to talk about his show, "Dream Productions", because I love it so much. So I do want to pick his brain about it. But then we're going to get into some specific writing craft talk, especially maybe about how to find a great act three and how that really is ultimately your movie.

So Mike, long intro, just because I'm so thrilled to have you here. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the show. 

Mike: Thank you. It's really great to talk to you. I was like, when you and I were talking about what we should do. The idea of just you and I sitting and talking as we usually do, usually with drinks was just such a fun idea.

I said, like, let's just, let's just record what you and I talk about. Although we usually begin by complaining about something. 

Meg: We do actually. 

Mike: We do. 

Meg: What can we complain about?

Mike: I don't know. Maybe we should, maybe we should skip that part. 

Meg: We'll skip that part, but we normally do have a little bitch session first.

Mike: Yes. 

Meg: Which always ends up evolving into, I don't know what to do with this story and really this bitch session is about my own inadequacy. But I also want to really talk about "Dream Productions" because you and I haven't had much chance to talk about it. And it's so good. It's so, so good. It's so well done .

It's every box we wanted to hit as a Pixar story. It's funny, it's beautiful, it's emotional, it's very authentic. I mean, you did such an amazing job with it. Let's just let people know, like, how did it evolve? This is a TV, a TV series. Not, not a movie, which is different for Pixar. So how did that all happen? 

Mike: Well, there was a point where Disney wanted streaming content from from Pixar and so they Win or Lose was the first series that was green lit and put into production. That's coming out. I just want to plug "Win or Lose" by the way, "Win or Lose" is just one of my favorite things that has come out of the studio, not mine.

That's Carrie, Yates, and Lally. They just did such a great job in that series. And anyway, when it comes out February, I don't know the date offhand, but it's fantastic. And so, and then the second one was "Dream Productions" and we were this was a idea from Pete, he wanted to to do kind of a mockumentary style office show, and he wanted it set in "Dream Productions" and he thought kind of like a workplace comedy. And I said like, great, let me run with that. And I, I just kind of love the idea that this studio like kind of crafts all of these dreams of Riley.

Right. And I love the idea of. Maybe a director who was really hot at one point, like who made Riley's early kind of Busby Berkeley dreams filled with like glitter and dancing and Rainbow Unicorn. Now that Riley's older she's having trouble finding a hit. And as you and I know, if you don't, you're kind of as good as your last hit to a certain regard.

And so I wanted to like, put her like on the downward arc as we as we introduce this director. And so I just took the director from ""Inside Out"" from, the movie you wrote, Paula played by Paula Pell. And I just gave her, her own series. And she kind of starts off saying like, I am, I am the hottest director at the studio.

And you kind of realize at the end of that first episode that she is not, that she is having a hard time. And I wanted to kind of keep that going and also use that as kind of like a measure of her change in a way, right? Like if she has this, a chip on her shoulder about how she speaks to this little girl then and how she, how her old kind of genre, her old style is still relevant then we should destroy that right in the beginning. So that was, that was fun. 

Meg: It's so, it's so insightful too. Well, there's lots of fun inside jokes about actually being on movies and, the writer's room. It's lots of really fun stuff, but I just also so loved-- you really, you bit off a big problem for her right in the first episode in terms of her own attitude and you really feel for her that she can't, she can't figure out how to stay up to date and, oh, the people around her are amazing. Her new assistant director is truly one of my favorite new characters from Pixar. What's his name? Oh my God, I forgot his name. Xeni. 

Yeah. Xeni. So 

good. Voiced 

Mike: by Richard Ayoade, who was just fantastic.

Meg: So, so good. And I've just so loved where it ended up, which we'll get to in one second, because we do want to ultimately talk about Act 3s. But I wanted to ask you before we do it's a big transition for you. I mean, it's a transition for Paula, right, through the whole series, but it's a transition for you from features to television and writing to directing. 

So how did your own transition impact kind of what you were writing or where Paula's change went? 

Mike: Well I, I kind of came into it not knowing how to direct the feature at Pixar, and I don't know that anybody from the outside does it's really Pixar. I mean, even writing at Pixar is its own unique beast. Right. I mean, I was thinking about, us, coming into Pixar, it was, I, it was you and me and Matt Aldridge and I think, yeah, and Vic was writing Finding Dory, but nobody, there was no manual on how to write a movie at this place.

There was, there was only like these lunches where we would sit and go like, does this shit happen to you? And you're like, yeah, man, that shit happens to me. And so like, I kind of approach directing that same way and that like, I don't, I don't know, but you know, there are so many wonderful artists here that like these writer lunches that we would have.

I'm just going to ask a lot of questions and I'm also going to have a lot of faith that they're going to, they're going to help me through it. Because, what, what we, I don't know that many people know that we don't really get involved in animation as writers. Like, we wrap, usually, before animation.

Meg: Yeah, if you're doing writing while they're animating, you're in deep trouble. Because that's very expensive. 

Mike: It's very expensive. And, but, but what I found is that our scripts, right, they're, they're, they're filled with a level of nuance that is sometimes lost a little bit in boards. And then when it goes into layout, which is kind of a process between boards and animation, it's kind of lost even further. But then animation needs that nuance because they are the actors of these characters.

So, one thing I did, the, the, and I think this, this is not new. the other projects at Pixar, but I just made sure all the animators had the scripts so they could read the scripts and they can see where that character came from and where they ended and also where they could read the action slugs and the, and, and and the parentheticals, right?

Because those gave a lot to those animators. And also I wanted them, and this is nothing new, but I wanted them to have the all the recordings of like Maya Rudolph and Paula Pell. And I kept, I feel like I just knew enough that I'm not going to go in as when I, when I'm directing animation and tell them how to like, lift a finger or how to maybe that maybe they need to smile here.

And maybe we need halflets here because I'm not an animator. I have no idea, but I do know those characters. And so I can come into a room of animators and I can tell them, this is what. But this character is feeling here. This is what they're feeling inside. This is what they say, which is going to be the opposite usually of how they're feeling.

Sometimes it's going to be right on the money and then we should talk about that. But like a lot of it is called all that subtext stuff that you and I really tried to put in those early drafts of the script. And so I found like that the script kind of comes alive again. In the hands of animators and they were so appreciative of getting those pages and they were so appreciative of, of just someone talking about how a character was feeling rather than like, well, I think we should take out that eyebrow lift there.

Like they don't ever want to hear that. They want to hear what the character feels so that they can go and kind of do their magic. So that was the big learning curve for me. 

Meg: I love that so much. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Just embracing. 

Meg: Especially as a writer. I agree. It's like the writer's approach, right, to now directing is-- and we did try to put all that subtext in. And sometimes it would be like, "animation is not really about nuance". And you're like, yes, it is. Yes, it can be. Yes, it can be. It can be. Yeah.

Mike: Well, also, because if there's one thing that you and I know is that we do need to remind the audience of kind of key things throughout the whole movie, right? And where that kind of breaks is if it becomes repetitive and the audience is like being led by the nose through the story. And so a lot of times, like I would go to animators, I'd go to story artists first and I would say, like, "can you take this chunk of dialogue and give me an action that says it better" because I feel like I've said it before, like, is there another way of saying it?

Right? And, and I found story artists, of course, are experts at that, but animation also. Given time and given kind of the, the freedom, they can really find it to. 

Meg: Yeah, I, I found that when I was, often when you're in those early drafts, you are just having people say things and you want this dialogue to go, but how you need to communicate to so many people that are going to be in this chain, what's going on that, you do as a writer, hope they take it out so that you find that behavior or action.

How was it working with the storyboard artists in a different way? As a writer, of course, you're in those meetings as the storyboard artists are presenting their hundreds of drawings. And you can raise your hand and be like, I love it, but it breaks this, this and this. Right. But really your job is to just listen in and let the director do his thing with those boards. 

How was that different for you to now from a writer's approach to working with the storyboard artists who are all amazing? 

Mike: Well, it's, it's again, I don't, I don't draw well. And I, and I wouldn't try to draw like, and for me I think when I came here early on, I came here... how long ago was it? I can't remember. It was a long time ago. 

Meg: Many, many moons. 

Mike: 16, yeah. So I feel like I came into Pixar with like, I'm going to tell them how it's done. And that's just the wrong attitude to come in. And I did that like, I think, on the first "Good Dinosaur" when I was the early versions of that. And I wasn't listening to them because I felt like I knew my pages.

And if there's one thing that started to kind of disintegrate, it's that story artists, a good story artist can show you where your pages are failing and where they're not connecting, like you might think, or you might have a vision in your mind that, oh, this, this chunk works. And then the story artists can go, can come in and show you, oh, it doesn't.

And the good story artists will have all say like, well, you could try it this way, right. And so I. Now that I've been here so long, I felt like I just kind of knew when to shut up. I knew like, you know what? I, I am fallible. And these script pages, I can't, that's not a Bible here. And if I want to get the best from story artists, the best from any artists here, you kind of have to give them also the freedom of finding out what you're trying of expressing what you're trying to say in pages a different way.

And so I felt like as a director, Pete would would also on "Soul" when we would pass out pages and also do reviews to story artists. Like he would he was very generous in that after he would give direction, he would look at me and go like, and I think he certainly did this with you too. He would go like, "you do you have anything?" 

 Always at the end. And that was such a learning experience for me, that that that's when I kind of realized, oh yeah, there is, there's a way of bringing in all voices as long as you kind of have that thread in your mind and are open to that thread kind of being changed.

And so, I came in not, again, same with animation, I came in not really telling the artist what I need. I did tell them sometimes I would need some coverage because I would, I would love some options in edit. But I would kind of let them tell me like, well, if this character is feeling here, what about a close up here?

Or instead of an over, maybe it's a two shot instead of maybe, I, I would in the Austin who was our head of story Austin Madison and Valerie and and even Melody early on, which, who was our story lead, they would all help a lot with that. 

Meg: Yeah, yeah. And they're also so deeply talented. And Valerie also directed some, right? 

Mike: Yeah, Valerie directed the first two episodes. Austin directed the third episode, which is our crazy sleepwalking episode. 

Meg: Oh my gosh, I hadn't put that together, but of course he did because it's so perfect for him. It's just so perfect. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I think like when--

Meg: Go ahead. Go ahead. 

Mike: I just think when I wrote that, I said, look, this is Austin. Yeah. Nobody's going to do this better than Austin. 

Meg: It's so good. I have to say it's, I just loved it so much. It's so clever as is, as he is, but it's just so, so clever that episode, and it is, learning to write in animation, understanding that these storyboard artists always have, they're different people, so they have different voices themselves.

But then it, all of those different voices have to be woven into the director's voice. It is, it's a process and it was, it is fascinating to watch it. And I'm so glad that you directed. I loved your episode. I thought it was so well directed. Truly, I thought it was just, and so beautiful and so, emotional, really emotional.

Okay. Which, I don't know, see, now I want to talk about third acts, because you directed the last one, which is, in essence, the third act. I understand it's a TV show, but in essence. Yes. So we're gonna do, I guess, some we're going to give away some of the end here. Because we have to talk about it.

So, if you haven't watched it, please do because whatever we describe here won't be nearly as good as the incredible beauty that Mike created when he made it. But so you and I talk about a lot of craft stuff over the years. And when I was at Pixar, we would do it live. Now we've done it on the phone and we've done it out.

When I, when you come to LA and we go get a drink, we still always do it because we're story junkies. So you had an inspirational idea, having worked so long at Pixar and watching all the development process go by, not just on your things, but on everybody's things and you had an idea about third acts. Let's just talk about it a little bit. 

Mike: Yeah, it really kind of happened on "Soul" first. Like "Soul," we didn't quite know how to end that. I think we had a couple of ideas and it's the third act, sure, but it's also that kind of breathless moment where the character gets to a point where, they can't, they've changed how they act in the end of the movie is not how they were ever able to act in the first part of this movie.

But also like I kind of, loved the idea of they've changed, but they don't know what that change necessarily is. Or they don't know who they are in the face of that sacrifice, right? That they're kind of just laid bare, but they know that they have to do something. And so, what I loved about the idea of dreams is that I tend, I have a lot of lucid dreams.

Do you have less, do you have lucid dreams? 

Meg: No, I'm jealous. 

Mike: You never-- there's a way of training yourself-- anyway we'll talk about it in a bit, but like lucid dream is where you're awake inside the dream where you suddenly you have this moment and go like, wait a minute, none of this is real. And sometimes you wake up a lot of the times I wake up, but sometimes you're kind of granted like a chunk of time where you can do fucking anything in the, in the dream.

Right. It's so great. And it's the, and it's the greatest, I've had some great dreams. And I, so I thought about like, that's what the series should really funnel to. Right. It should funnel to giving this little girl the ultimate power over this crazy, surreal mind-life that she has that comes out of "Dream Productions", right. And that Paula needs to be the one that grants it to her.

And so, great. If Paul is able to grant it to her then how do I throw that ball of Paula giving freedom to what Riley to create her own dream all the way backwards to the first act. And that means you're creating a, for me at least you're creating a character that is tightly controlling all these dreams. That has a vision for them.

That, that really the camera, which is Riley, is a passenger in all these dreams. That Riley has no purchase in any of them. She's not making any choice in any of them. All of her choices are being made by this cast and crew that are making this kind of wonderful little high school production that's full of weirdness and full of topics that Riley is dealing with, in which case it's whether she should go to the dance or not.

Right. So that's where we started. Paul, we started Paula as this like. old, kind of Busby Berkeley like director who does things one way and she really doesn't, she really can't change and we just slowly chip that away through episode one, two and three until by the end, I would say like, I think it's the first five minutes in episode four, like she quits. She quits the studio because she can't do it anymore.

She realizes Riley's not listening to her. She realizes there's probably better directors for her. She realizes like the one thing she wants to do so badly is to talk to this little girl and she can't anymore because this little girl is not listening to her anymore. This little girl is not remembering these dreams that she's making.

 I don't want to give, I don't want to go through all the steps that we got there, but faced with this change, that she is not the director that Riley listens to anymore, she's kind of faced with this moment of this little girl experiencing a nightmare. That is not going to help her at all.

And so what she does is just, I, I'm going to pull the filter. I'm going to have this little girl see that this is all just a dream and I don't know what's going to happen after that. 

Meg: Because it's going to be a nightmare and she wants her to have more control over that nightmare. And I love what you're saying in terms of, one thing I want to point out and something you just said is, okay we're gonna end of her letting go of control to give the control to this child that she loves then at the beginning, she's super controlling, and then you chip away at it, which I love that phrase. You chip away at that idea of having to be controlling. But I want to point out to our listeners, you do that chipping away, sure, through the actual dreams and her as a director, but really the most profound chipping away is with relationship.

It is the relationship with her AD, her new AD. It's the relationship with her old AD at such a beautiful spot where she comes to talk to her old AD. And there's a moment when her old AD says, Oh, that's why you're here. It's very selfish of you. She's still trying to control. Everybody's kind of calling her out on it and giving her examples of not controlling, right.

And of being more authentic and what this change will give her and it's just that chipping away. Whenever you get those polls of your movie in terms of the third act to the first really try to think about how are you helping them see something new or let go of control or whatever it is you're doing through relationship, right.

Because I think a lot of emerging writers do it through situation. And it's not as emotional and I think the relationships in your movie are so emotional even, you know her boss, it's all also rich in in relationship of her coming to understand that. So do you find in development then-- it's funny because we all want to start in first acts, right? Don't we? We all want to talk about the first act forever, right? Which is usually a pile of situations. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: But really, have you found in developing maybe new things now to start with a third act? Have you tried that? Or at the end of act two, the end of act two, do you find that's helpful? Do you find that's not? How are you kind of taking this idea and putting it into practice? 

Mike: Yeah, I mean, it kind of started with "Soul." With "Soul" I really didn't know what that final gesture was until actually until Kevin Nolting brought me into the edit room and goes, I want you to watch this sequence. And the sequence was Joe taking 22's hand and jumping with her down to earth after she earns her badge, after she finally, and she finally wants to go, right. But she's scared to death. But again, it's kind of like that beautiful moment of like a kid on a high dive and they really want to jump, but they really don't. And we looked at this-- there's a great short I think that the New York Times has, of people going to the edge of a board and looking down. Meters down and seeing like how far away that water is and freaking out, but they want to jump. Right. And so I watched this as how the Joe takes 22 and jumps with her. And I didn't realize it at the time, but I go like shit, like that's it.

That's the end of our movie. So that's the end of our movie. If we have Joe kind of desperately wanting to get back to Earth in order to fulfill what he thinks is his life's purpose, we have to have that sacrificed in order to let somebody new go down to Earth to find theirs. To find the seed of their own.

And so like, I didn't know that. So I felt like the first act in the early versions of "Soul" was very different until like, I saw that on, on Kevin screen, and I go like, shit, like we got a lot of work to do. We got a lot of fucking work to do because like that moment is too great. Like we have to, and I think we quickly brought in Pete and we just put like a several layers of amber over that moment. So like this cannot change because this is the movie and that's the third act. Right. And again, like, Joe kind of doesn't really know what's going to happen. He knows he's going to take her down, and he doesn't know what's going to happen to himself. It's kind of like facing the sacrifice, right? And I think you and I have talked about that before.

Meg: I love that. 

Mike: It's a sacrifice of life, but like, you can also have your character sacrifice career. Like, what happens if they sacrifice their beliefs? What happens if they sacrifice something that they have held so, so dear? And what I kind of love is that when that is stripped away, I love that a character is kind of laid bare, that there's nothing to replace it, right?

And so they're kind of open to something new and it's, and I love getting to the moments in the script. So yeah, I think like sometimes, but sometimes I'll need like that first act or that second act to get me into the third act. But by that point, and particularly in the early drafts, I feel like the character has changed so much that I have to go back and just do a ton of rewriting.

Meg: To earn that third act that, yeah, that you got to. It's interesting because you call it "sacrifice," I think that's such an interesting word. It's one that I haven't thought of before. That in that end of act two, when they come to consciousness about their change and how they've created this whole act two anyways, themselves, by their behavior from act one. I love the idea that you're bringing up that it's a very vulnerable place to be because you don't yet have new identity, new ways of being, you don't know how to be this new person that has this new insight into yourself, or into the world. And added to that vulnerability is you are probably going to have to sacrifice in your action of the climax whatever you were trying to keep away from or protect in Act One, right?

Like in terms of Joy, she was all about, Riley has to be happy. I don't want my little girl to be sad. Well, guess what you're gonna give up. You're gonna hand over those core memories. There is a huge sacrifice to everything you were fighting for in this movie. It's going to now happen, but because you've changed, you understand that it needs to happen.

Mike: Yeah, and what you do so well in the first "Inside Out" and what you did again so well in the second one is that Joy starts to realize it's like, it, that's that beautiful line, maybe there's a little less room for Joy in Riley's life. It's, it's coming to face kind of her own, as an emotion, her own mortality in a way. She was, she was so bright in young Riley, right.

But now there's other emotions that need to kind of, you need to make way for other emotions at the, at the control panel. And that means stepping back a little, that means not having a necessarily full control of that anymore. And that's like, it's such a profound thought that we stole for "Dream Productions."

Meg: Well, I also thought that and that just to be all fair, and that's Dave Holstein's beautiful line. And I, for me, it was Joy realizing she's been trying to control who Riley is and her sense of self. Because as a parent, you want your kid to not think-- who as a parent wants their kid to think they're not enough or they're bad at math? Like you try to talk them out of those things, but that is now part of who they are.

I always loved the Joy in the sacrifice of the second movie, she gets to realize I helped create this, not just anxiety. But in this movie, she has to step forward. That Riley, in fact, does need her. She needs self compassion, that Joy has to evolve to and with into self compassion and beauty. So to me that it's funny how, and this is just an interesting part of the process when you have multiple creators, directors, multiple writers, storyboard artists, that we all intuitively tune emotionally to our own lives, right, in terms of what we're bringing in. Which is the, and that's what the director is for, is to keep that richness of that tuning, but all into a singular voice.

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: Are you developing now in a different way? I call them poles, character poles of the third act action versus the first act action, which if it's transformative character, it's completely different. Claiming characters, as I call them, I think it's different. Like let's talk about Moana. It's much more about you're right at the beginning but you doubt and by the end you have to be you have to claim what you were doubting even a thousand times more than you could ever have imagined in terms of claiming that power.

I also love that about Paula's third act is that by making that sacrifice, she really does create something that's never happened before. And something so beautiful. She does get what she wants at the beginning, just not the way she thinks. 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah.

Meg: Is that intentional? Is it just that her plan is bad?

Mike: You mean in the third, in the third act, in our first episode?

Meg: In the first act, I think she loves being a great director, but she mostly loves Riley, right? It's really about protecting Riley, making Riley happy, right? And by the end, she is the one that steps forward. 

Mike: Yeah, we, I mean, everything in Riley's mind is there to help Riley. So we had various like antagonists that we were trying at various points all throughout the, four year development of this show. And I would always get hit with, well why would that character do that because that's not good for Riley? And I always give a "yeah shit, you're right, it's like such a great note, of course." But as long as we put Riley into the motivation of it we could skew that. That character's motivation. So if Paula has had some measure of success, early on with Riley--, we had one moment where she discovers Rainbow Unicorn. We kind of had a flashback where she discovered, Rainbow Unicorn was her find, right? She's like built up a measure of pride with how much she's been able to communicate with this girl and how much joy she's brought to this girl, this little girl's life in terms of her dreams, right?

So that can come back as saying like, Oh, well, she's still doing good stuff for Riley, but it's building up a little bit of ego in Paula. And like, early on in "Dream Productions", I was really trying to sell this to Pete, is that I really had Paula, like, very egotistical. Like, I made her, like, an A list director, who, like, and some of it's still in there, like, she still has the sandwich named after her in the commissary and she still has her parking spot. And she loves all that stuff, but all that is because the audience loves her work and the audience is one, is Riley. There's an audience of one here. Right. And she thinks she knows. And so when, in the beginning, and so when you get to the end, she has no idea what's going to happen.

And so, yeah, she's kind of rewarded with the fact that she finally comes face to face, and just to spoil it, she comes face to face with Riley in this lucid dream. That's something that, that we were very, very proud of, and we really fought for. We didn't have to fight for it so much cause I think people saw how much, how emotional it was. But the fact that Riley can appear in the mind inside of a lucid dream means that Paula can talk to her. And what does Paula do? She just listens. She doesn't tell Riley what to do. She doesn't push Riley to go over there. She just listens to this little girl.

And this girl tells her, I I'm going to go into the dance. I don't know if I want to go. And Paula goes, Oh.

Meg: I love that moment that Paula didn't give her the answer. This controlling, "I have to do it my way because that's what Riley needs". I was even surprised, I guess as a parent, cause I'd be like, tell her to go to the dance.

But Paula's smarter than me at this point and is like, I don't know, all I can tell you is it's your dream, right? It's just like, oh my gosh, it's so good, Mike. It's so good. 

Mike: Oh, thank you. Yeah. It was, yeah. 

Meg: That was so good. 

Mike: And then, like, we had this moment where, I think this was not, this was not my idea. This was actually, I think it was Austin's idea, where I earlier had, when Riley wakes up from this dream, she remembers it. And if we are set it up that remembering the dream is like box office gold at "Dream Productions." Like if Riley remembers your dream and goes and tells somebody like that's hundreds of millions of dollars right there at the equivalent. And so I said, well, yeah she's gonna wake up and she's gonna remember it and like Paula's career is gonna be back because she's just made a multi billion dollar dream, you know and Austin's like well, what if she didn't? What if she didn't remember it?

Because maybe that's not the point. Maybe the point is this kind of feeling that you get. Like, we did a lot of research into dreams in that, like what our dreams for, nobody really knows, but the thing that we loved about it is that dreams are a way for us to kind of, process moments in our lives that are harder to process with, with logic.

So the first thing that happens when you fall asleep is the logic part of your brain is cut off. And so you have this weird kind of bizarre dream with all these strands of your life meeting and some strands that you even think were there. And you come out, usually they don't end for me, I just kind of wake up, but you do feel kind of a release. And so they think that this is your mind's way of unwinding a lot of tight things that can't be unwound in waking life. And I just found that fascinating so that when Austin mentioned, like, maybe she should wake up and she should not remember it, she should not remember this fantastic, incredible dream that she had.

But she feels it like you can kind of see her on her face, that little smile that she has. Right. 

Meg: It's a real testament to the character because, just like you said, it's her goal in act one is to get the dream that you remember and get back to that. So that, what an amazing, again, sacrifice that that's her realization that's not what this is about at all.

And just even to our emerging writers, or any writers, including me who's writing right now, if you can find that action, again, action, not somebody talking, but in behavior. The behavior is, I need to make a dream that will be remembered forever, right? To, I'm going to give that up and she doesn't need to remember this dream. And it was such a beautiful line in this, in the story that that's not what it's about at all. And again, into behavior, into I'll stop a dream. I'll do anything to help this little girl and there's nothing about me anymore. 

And also coming to my mind is you also really did something that's so, so hard to do. And even if people just watch it for this, often. You'll be in development and you'll say things like, a writer-- not you, Mike-- but a writer will say, well, they're going from selfish to self less. How many times have we got into that and any development with our own projects? And it's so hard to create a selfish character who's appealing, who you agree with, that you want to go on a journey with, that you want what they want.

That is high, high math, story math. So how do you feel like you did that with Paula? What was the tricks of the trade to attach us to somebody who is a little bit arrogant and is kind of selfish and controlling and other characters are telling her that? Right. And yet we still stay with her. Right? We're not popping out into their point of view and judging her. What were some of the, in looking back, how did you pull that off? 

Mike: Well, it I mean, you're so right because what we try to do here, as is we try to create really compelling characters and are compelling characters are flawed. They're selfish there. They fuck up. But they're very entertaining to watch. For some reason here at Pixar the entertaining, compelling, and selfish are really hard to get across. I really tried early on, when I was talking to Pete about this, I'd go like, Paula needs to be like a selfish, A list director, but we're gonna knock that out in the very first episode.

We're gonna show how vulnerable she is. But if you could just stay with me on this ride, like, maybe by the end, the audience will be like, Oh my gosh, she has a heart. Oh, Oh, she's really, she's really feels emotional about losing her AD. And that's what happens, she loses kind of her best friend.

 But we were constantly getting the note, ah, she's too selfish. Oh, she's unlikable. Right. Again, like I really, it drove me crazy because I really wanted to keep Paula's pride of her old work in place. Right. And so, I would say casting Paula Pell as Paula went a long way.

 Because Paula could be self deprecating in that kind of fun way. But it's also, we decided to use the function of the camera. So the camera, as opposed to other Pixar movies, like the camera is its own person. Like there is a crew shooting this. And so one idea that we just really leaned into is that Paula knows the camera's shooting her.

And so when she sees the camera shooting her, she kind of turns it on a little bit. She turns it on and, and what you kind of get is like, oh, she's putting on a front. Right. But it's entertaining. She's not like Michael Scott or like Amy Poehler's character in "Parks and Rec." Like they are kind of who they are in front of the camera.

Paula is like somebody else. And then when she doesn't think the camera is shooting, she kind of goes to this more kind of like, wait, like, I just lost my AD. Like, I'm really, I'm really sad about it. And we have that great moment at the end of episode one, where that, that Valerie directed, where the camera catches her in a candid moment of just feeling deep loss because she's just lost her best friend and she doesn't know what to do. And it's just that once we kind of were able to find more of those moments in particularly the first episode, once that we showed like underneath this front that she's putting on is this like really wonderful heart, then that note started to kind of go away. But it took forever. 

Meg: It's so interesting. So I'm just going to try to summarize it for all of us, because we all can get into these conundrums with our characters in act one where we get not likable and blah, blah, blah. So I heard you say entertaining. She is super entertaining. She's funny. You kind of want to be around her, even though she might be doing things that you're like, well, that's pretty harsh.

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: Whether even though she might be putting on a front and we know she's putting on a front, she's still so entertaining. And there's so much fun around it. She's skilled. Yes, her skill is now outdated, but she is a skilled person. I think sometimes that's a very appealing thing to us. Like, she knows this world. She's skilled in this world. She's going to get a wake up call here in five minutes. Her arrogance is not coming from something facile. It's coming from a true core of her character and her ultimate goal is relatable, which is Riley, right? So we can add that into something. And then ultimately, I love what you're talking about, the vulnerability and that it's not-- sometimes people say save the cat or whatever, that's such an action that I don't even know what that means.

You're talking about the vulnerable human thing that we can all feel, which is exposure. She's getting exposed immediately in terms of the problem she has and we can relate to the problem. That's another thing to think about if you have a selfish character. They might be selfish, but we can relate to the problem. We can relate to the exposure, the vulnerability that's coming up. I feel like that all starts to make them human, even if they are selfish. 

Do you feel like we ultimately need to be with them in their selfish behavior? Meaning, do we need to agree with what they're choosing to do that might be selfish or can we stay out of it and think, well, that's pretty selfish?

Mike: Yeah, it's hard to stay out of it for me. I think I like it because I think many people know that they have selfishness and that we all do, right? We all want to protect our ego, right? So I think if we see a character do that, what we have to do is we have to be empathetic to that because we see some of ourselves even in their flaws, right?

So, with Paula, we also have this moment where Paula in the beginning of this movie goes like, I have all these things I have like a sandwich in the commissary, but you don't get that if you don't do if you don't do what I do well, and that is, make beautiful dreams for Riley.

So she's kind of saying like, yes, I'm selfish I have my own parking spot. But it's because like, I I, I'm really concerned about making beautiful dreams for this girl. And so you're kind of like, it's still a little selfish, but she is putting forth a, like a honorable reason for it all.

Meg: It's interesting because I always find this with Pixar movies or any movies, really, the character in Act 1 has a blind spot and you have to convince the audience to see the same blind spot. Because if you're, if you already know the blind spot, then why am I going to go through with all the rest of it? Because I'm just waiting for them to see what I can see. Versus Oh, no, she's right. And yeah, it's a little selfish, but I totally get it because you did this and I want a parking spot and a sandwich. That's so cool. Like we can, we can relate to what the selfishness is. And even better, and not necessarily for Paula, but knowing why the selfishness is there. Like what is the vulnerability that they've decided this selfishness serves a purpose. It's really so deeply knowing the character so that even though we might have a little inkling of, well, that's selfish, we get it. And we can relate to that authentic selfishness because it's a blind spot that isn't going to come, like you said, until later in terms of that behavior. 

Mike: I was also dying at some point to just have somebody call her out, like immediately to her face on all of her selfishness and how her dreams are dreck and her dreams are four quadrant rubbish. And of like making Xeni. So for those who haven't seen the show, there's Paula, who's like kind of a four quadrant, big budget director.

And there's Xeni who comes from the world of daydreams, which in our minds were the independent art films of Riley. When she's like staring at the window at like a cloud or something, and she imagines it as a hockey puck, that's the work of Xeni and he believes that they're full of meaning and, when really it's just a silly daydream. But so how, how perfect would it be for like this independent art director to come in and tell this like studio director, your dreams are shit, and that's exactly what we did. Like in the beginning of the second episode, he comes in and goes like, He goes, "are you ready to hear what I think about your dreams? Good." 

And he just goes down the list of like how, of, of Paula's flaws. And it's funny and we're kind of laughing along with it, but we really put the idea early on that she is too devoted to the script. She's too devoted to her, like her old way of trying to talk to Riley that she needs to let go and she needs to she needs to like embrace kind of chaos. Right. And of course, Xeni can work like, oh, come on, dude, but he's right. Right. And it's just, we, what we loved is that every, that, that chip away at Paula is based on the relationship she has with an AD she hates who's telling her your stuff sucks.

Meg: And talk about compassion and empathy. Even though you kind of know he's probably right he's such a pompous jerk about it. 

Mike: Yes. 

Meg: That you really do sit in her shoes like, Oh my God, this is like your worst nightmare. Yeah. Is that the critic in your head is now standing outside with a clipboard telling you all the ways you suck. Oh my God. It's so relatable. Immediately you're in her shoes.

Mike: Yeah, and he's a nephew of the studio head, so she can't do anything about it. 

Meg: So, in a way, there's another kind of interesting writing exercise. If you have a selfish character, have them meet somebody more selfish, or more kind of in their face and see what happens. Yeah. It works very, very well. 

Mike: I want to call out that a lot of that dialogue between Paula and Xeni was improvised between Richard Ayoade and Paula Pell. We, we got them on a tie line, and we just had them go at each other. So a lot of that stuff was, certainly seeded by some of the writing, but a lot of it was just two brilliant comics just needling each other. And it was so good. 

Meg: So good, so good. I mean, that's the beauty of these actors coming in and giving everything that they give, they're always so talented. And comedians, like you said. That's always some of the most fun at working at Pixar is they're bringing in comedians who are so fast. 

Mike: Yeah. And who know drama. Like, Paula Pell really got us to some really wonderful emotional moments. And it was just such a gift to have her on this, this show. Yeah, Richard as well. Also like, we, we wanted to give casting Maya Rudolph as like the as the studio head. Maya gave that studio head kind of a sense of like, what did we call it? It was kind of like, I'm going to kiss you on the cheek, but I'm also going to stab you in the front at the same time. And I'm going to be totally okay with it. And she just like took, she took that and ran with it. And again, that's like back going back to our, like, why is something antagonistic and Riley's mind? Well, she believes like, that there is something better for Riley. She believes dreams can have an impact on Riley, but she's really just chasing Nielsen ratings.

Meg: She's a great character too. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: Craft wise, in terms of third acts we talk a lot in this show about the engine, be it of your show or the engine of your movie. And that so much of the drafts and drafts and drafts you're doing is trying to really find the engine, get it running, that when it sets off in act one-- I always know when you've got a great engine for a TV show or a movie is if you can pitch that engine and all of a sudden every writer or person in the room goes, "Oh, it could, this could happen, that could happen."

Cause you know, oh, it's popping. It's popping. What's your kind of take, especially as the third act, you got to get that engine all the way to that third act moment you're talking about. How does knowing that third act help you find that engine or do you have any insights into creating the engine of your show or the engine of your movie?

Mike: Well, I will say I, I started to kind of think is, is there another way of doing it? Cause what we do a lot of at Pixar, and it's not wrong it's helped us a lot, is that we put two opposing characters as the engine, right? One character wants one thing and the other character wants something else.

And that's in "Dream" that's in "Soul". And so, when Paula at the end of our show kind of gives the director megaphone to Xeni and says, like, it's all you now, like, that's that was also part of the third act that we really wanted. That she's that that's her first step in giving up total control here.

And giving it to somebody that she despises in the very beginning, somebody that's just the antithesis of everything she believes in. Right. And so we usually frame that within, kind of two characters that are coming at a similar goal in a different way and driving each other crazy about it.

 It's funny, I I've kind of come to think like we, we go to that well a lot and I think, and it's a great, well. But I've started to think like, is there another way? There's probably also a way of starting two characters, like lockstep with each other, like, oh, what's that movie? I'm thinking about the two best friends, they're they're girls that are in high school.

Meg: Oh, and they're going to go do the parties? That we didn't have any fun in high school and we're going to go do parties. "Booksmart".

Mike: "Booksmart". Yeah thanks, Jeff. "Booksmart". Like, I loved watching "Booksmart". So that's an that's an idea where these two characters aren't meeting at opposites. They're, like, totally, like, lockstep with each other, and you love them because there's so much fun together. But at some point, yeah, they kind of start to diverge.

Meg: And they're gonna have to have a come to Jesus moment with each other, don't they? . Like, there has to be something going on between that relationship. 

Mike: Yeah, yeah. So I've started to think, like, oh, would that be interesting? Could we, could we set a relationship that's really great and then kind of break it at the midpoint or earlier or something like that? 

Meg: It's funny because the original first draft when I went on to "Good Dinosaur", that's what it was. It was a wolf who finds the lost boy. In this case, it's a boy wolf and a dinosaur boy and they're just helping each other through this experience. And we got really far, we got many, many versions. And then we got the note. It has to be antagonistic at the beginning and, the whole thing started to shift. I really liked the other version. It's just, how to earn, how to-- I guess the question is in that version, if they're lockstep, where is the conflict coming from?

Mike: Right. 

Meg: Where is that antagonism coming from if it's not between each other? 

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder. Yeah. I wonder if it's a vent in their world that kind of splits them apart in age. They each kind of deal with in a different way. I'm not sure. It's just I've started to kind of think about now that I'm in Dev. "Finding Nemo" is a great movie, like all these movies are great. But like, a part of me wants to kind of think about, well, is there another way rather than 22 and Joe, two opposites, that meet at the end. Paula and Xeni, two opposites that meet at the end. 

Meg: Well, you know, if you think about "Finding Nemo", Nemo's story actually isn't about two opposites, because they all want out of the tank. So his is a fish out of water, haha, but it is. He doesn't know this tank. He doesn't know any of these people. He gets a mentor, and yes, is he being used to help them get out of the tank? But that's okay, because he wants to get out of the tank too. So there is an example, and now it's a B storyline, obviously, where it's a group of people who all have the same goal and are going to have to deal with their idiosyncratic natures. Like this blowfish blows up and, they're going to have to deal with issues of conflict just out of who they are as fish, right?

But they all have the same goal, right? Like if you think about it, even "Wizard of Oz", just to go to something very basic, they all want to get to the Wizard. 

And there is a witch in "Wizard of Oz" and there is a little girl who might kill them all in "Nemo", right? So there is another outside antagonistic force that starts to create a ticking clock and put pressure on that pair or that group.

I don't know. I'm just thinking it through. Like if you had to do it or if you wanted to do it, how to create the engine for that those two to not be-- "Super bad." There are traditions of people together. 

Mike: Yeah. And even when I talk, say this, one of my favorite movies is is "Midnight Cowboy." I think Waldo Salt's script of that book is just an amazing feat. And those are two characters that meet at opposites, right? They couldn't be more opposite from each other, but the world kind of forces them together into this like deep kind of loving relationship that really surprises you by the end.

Yeah. And when Ratso Rizzo dies, you really feel it for a character that, man, you just didn't feel for at all, right, when you first met him. So, yeah, I mean, I say that, but then there's just something so powerful about bringing two people from opposite sides, like, together.

Meg: But what's interesting, in my memory, I would have to watch it again, but my memory is, is that the cowboy... 

Mike: Joe Buck. 

Meg: Joe buck doesn't necessarily hate or feel antagonistic towards the Dustin Hoffman character. 

Mike: In the beginning he does.

Meg: In the very beginning he does? 

Mike: Yeah. Because Ratso cons him. Ratso actually takes his money.

Meg: But he quickly becomes a mentor.

Mike: Well, yeah, because like, and that's also a function of the world, right? So we're talking about like late sixties, early seventies, late sixties, New York, right? In Times Square, very, very different New York, right, where it's, it's kind of survival of the fittest out there.

And so by that point, like well into the movie, Joe Buck is not having any luck being a male prostitute for women. He is, and he's kind of, he's really, really hungry, and he just like wants a place to like lie down. And so when he sees Ratso again, he pursues him, but then like he kind of gives up cause he goes like, you know what, you're not fucking worth it.

And I, and the world is coming down on me. And Ratso goes, well, just come stay at my place. Ratso kind of gives him a little gesture. And the gesture from Ratso, who is a character that you haven't expected to be kind in any way, um, is kind of heartbreaking and beautiful. And then like, and of course, Joe Buck is really suspicious of him. And he desperately needs a place to sleep that night so he ends up going back to, you know, the flat where Ratso is more or less squatting. And they just develop this close relationship because the world is just so oppressive to them both that they only have each other. 

And in the third act you are so like with them together. And you never want to see them part because they're kind of wonderful like together, even in their opposites, they're kind of wonderful. They've found what their relationship is. 

Meg: Well what I hear you saying that applies to "Booksmart" in a completely different way, it's emotional stakes, not physical stakes. But there are very high stakes and a sense of desperation. That's pulling them together, right, because in "Booksmart" there's a desperation to it's one last night. If we miss it, we've missed it for ever. There's a kind of finality. If you don't get to the wizard, you are staying here for ever. There's a desperation that pulls those characters together. So even if they have different personality types, they're not that kind of typical "I hate you. You hate me." Because they're in lockstep against this kind of desperate situation, right? Yeah. Just things to think. I'm just thinking for myself in terms of, I don't know, story math. Here we are. I love it. I'm like, how do you do it? What is the story math of this? 

I know that we're out of time and I'm sure you have to go, but I realized that we, I was so into talking to you, Mike, that I forgot a whole section of the show. I forgot the section of Adventures in Screenwriting.

How was your week? And I would really like to know how your week is. My week is super easy, which is I, for a while now, have been worried that I've been burned out of writing and maybe I don't want to write anymore. 

I like to talk about it, but I wasn't finding myself wanting to sit down and write. I wasn't finding myself thinking about it all the time.

And I'm like, am I tired? Is it maybe I've moved on? I just couldn't think. And then I started writing something that I love and I'm like, oh yeah, no. I just didn't have the thing. I'm writing something now that I'm so happy to be writing. I'm not avoiding it. I'm, I'm thinking about it all the time. I was brushing my teeth and all of a sudden I was like, "oh, oh" and I ran to my computer. I haven't had it in so long. 

Mike: Oh, that's so good. Oh man. Isn't that fun? 

Meg: It's so fun. And I feel like the story is my soul. Do you know what I mean? And it's, we'll see, but right now, I'm just so happy writing. And it hasn't happened, it hasn't happened in so long. Because honestly, part of it is just, and I'm going to write it with my husband and we're going to go back and forth and I'm sure everything will turn up. But right now, I just am so enjoying myself. 

Mike: Well, let me ask you, do you feel like, you feel like you were a little dry before, like you needed to, read, see other movies, listen to music? Like I find sometimes I'm the well's dry, right? 

Meg: Yes, I do think the well was dry. I think also it's been a very long stretch of writing things for other people or for business or jobs or. Which you can eventually get into that stream, where you're like, Oh, now I I'm in, but it's a lot of work, right?

Because there's so many people watching and judging. And when you're a pro writer, it's a job, right? And to find something that I love enough that my brain can turn that off about the job, you know what I mean, because which is, was hard to do. It's been very hard to turn that off in the last few years. But this one I've been able to be like, I just like it and I don't care what the notes are going to be. I like it. So I think it was more finding the story that was bigger than any notes you're going to get or the hill you have to climb or the, that you love it that much. Yeah. So, fun, fun. What's your week like? What was your week like? 

Mike: Well, I I'm staring at a blank page. 

Meg: So fun times. 

Mike: I find I'm a little dry right now. I kind of need, I, I need to read, I need to see movies. I need to listen to music. I need to kind of start it up again. And it's not that I feel that I'm not gonna find it. I do feel that I went from "Soul" right into "Luca", from "Luca" right into "Dream Productions", from "Dream Productions" I went right into helping out on "Elio" a little bit, which was pretty intense. So I feel like I've never kind of gotten a breath, and I just would love a little bit of a breath. And so, development is a kind of a great place to be in Pixar in that you can kind of dream and you can throw things at the wall. You can bring people in to look at that wall. They can say like, "you're just throwing things against the wall, it doesn't look like anything." And you go, oh, okay.

Meg: Or they can say right there. They can say right there. 

Mike: Yes, they never do that, but they, but that's what you want. Like you, you want a place that's just going to continue to provoke you. Right. And that, and, and I have been here so long that I'm really used to that. Before I think I bristled at it and, and maybe it's also just age at this point. There was a great podcast that Michael Meade did, "The Living Myth" podcast. Have you heard of it before? I'm going to send it to you. I can't remember, it's like one in several weeks back but he tells the story, an ancient story about a hunter who who hunts for the village. And he's incredibly skilled at it. He's the best hunter all around. When one day he's looking down in a pond, and in a pond he sees the reflection of this beautiful bird of light. And it's stunning, right?

And it's just a reflection. And he quickly looks up to see if he could see the bird and the bird is gone. Right. But looking at the reflection of this bird, like time kind of cracks open for him. It stops. And it's called like a touch of the divine, meaning that the, something has reached down into him and changed him forever. And he stops hunting. He can't hunt anymore. And the only thing he can do is try to find this bird again, so he could see it again. 

And I think like for us and probably many writers, we, that happened to us at some point. Whether it was a movie or a song or a book or a poem or a piece of art, like something cracked open time for us and we are in this constant pursuit to try to see it again. And to try to like imitate it or mimic it. And, and that's not because like we want necessarily the fame and fortune that comes with being successful at it. I think for the best of us, it's that it touched something in us and we desperately want to be touched again. But we, we definitely, we want that touch of the divine, right?

And what I've come to realize is that particularly at Pixar, is that it's not ever the release of any of these movies that I've worked on. It's always like pursuit of it. Like the, the work in it, the work with all these artists. So like it was for that hunter who gave up hunting and just pursued, the, the view of this bird it's kind of like, I think for us, like. Once we find something that kind of love and can pursue, like that's the reason why we do it in a way. So I'm so happy that you found something. 

Meg: It's so beautiful. Such a beautiful analogy and insight. I do feel that way right now. I feel like it's there. I'm looking at a reflection. But boy I do, that is exactly how it feels. It's feels like, the way I was trying to describe it to a friend is it's like I don't understand it, but this is where I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be writing this. It's like the muses are happy, right?

I'm not fighting something going uphill trying to figure out what everybody else wants blah blah blah, all the other work of a writer. I'm just I'm supposed to be writing this story. I don't know if anybody ever make it, I don't know what's gonna happen to it. But right now I'm supposed to be writing this story and it's such a beautiful place.

And just to also say when you're feeling dry like that, and now that you say it, I went to a lot of museums. I've gone to a lot of museums because I grew up with a mother who was an art teacher. So for me, there's a lot of that divine moment with art where you just stand in front of it and I can't even tell you why, but it's deeply touching me and it's just two colors on a piece of canvas and yet it's reverberating in a deeper place in me. I know for some people it's music. I find you even just can touch that divine moment in another person's work. 

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: It does help you, right? It does start to fill you up. Yeah, yeah. What's yours? If mine's art, going to museums, what's your kind of, place to go find that in other people's work. What what do you get drawn to? 

Mike: Oh, it's well it's always kind of been movies and I kind of go back to the same handful of movies that moved me so much that I said like I want to try to do this, you know. I mean "Midnight Cowboy" was one I remember seeing it. I deeply loved "Tender Mercies," I think that is Horton Foote at his most spare and brilliant.

 When I saw that movie, I don't know how old I was, and it came out in 83, 84. I probably saw it later cause I don't think I was kind of old enough to really appreciate it. Ah, that just blew open something in me and just being from Texas and being from that area and kind of understanding the cadence. I think what it showed me more than anything is that like the stories that I grew up or the people that I grew up around. Like Mac Sledge in that movie was a lot like several of my uncles and my dad to a certain extent. That kind of like, the way you hold in your feelings, but how much the world demands that demands them. And then the way they come out, like Robert Duvall does such a fantastic, like fucking job in that.

And I think he won the Oscar, I think Horton Foote won the Oscar, I think Bruce Beresford won the Oscar. Didn't they all? And I think it was Best Picture. It just blew me away. And there's a moment in it, there's a moment in it that I go back to all the time. It's when, I don't know, I don't want to give away the movie.

Meg: Go for it.

Mike: Okay. Mac Sledge, people just shutting off their, their podcast, like "don't talk about another movie, Mike," anyway, Mac Sledge is a country Western singer, very successful who kind of hits rock bottom and ends up helping to manage a motel deep in Texas. And he's had this whole other life. He had a, an ex wife who's a famous, now a famous country Western singer, and he's just trying to simplify his life, right? He's trying to kind of leave the old life behind and just focus on what his life is, but like the present things in front of him and deep into the movie, his older daughter comes to see him. And she's been looking for him, right?

She's not getting along with his ex wife and she just wants to talk to her dad, right? And she comes in and they talk for a little bit and he's really giving to her and he's like so happy to see her, but he's keeping it all bottled in, right? And at the end of this meeting, she goes like, "do you remember that song that you used to sing me as a little girl, I can't remember what it was. Like on the wings of a dove or something like that. I can't remember the lyric, but do you, do you remember it used to put me. When I'd go to sleep, you would sing it to me?" And he goes, "no, I don't remember." And she goes, "you sure? It had something about a dove." He goes, "no, I'm sorry. I don't remember." And they kind of say their goodbyes and she leaves and he walks to the window and he, opens the blinds and he watches her leave and he sings the song. Alone. And I was like, what the fuck? You could have done that. Why didn't you do that to her?

And, but, but what I found myself as I found myself, I'm not yelling at the movie or the script or the direction or, or Robert Duvall. I'm yelling at that character because it made so much sense to me. Like, and it was awful. Like, I think about it now I go, Oh man, if only you had just sung it to her. If only you'd given that moment that she's asking so much for, but you denied it and why? And for me, it just made so much wonderful sense. That like, that's kind of what was my like bird in the sky. Like if I can write that moment, so filled with like contradiction, but like some kind of deep, like something that the audience goes, I can't, I don't know why that feels so right, but it does.

Meg: It's so authentic.

Mike: Right? Like, so that was one I just, that's one I just constantly go back to. And that's the one I'm constantly pursuing. I feel like, I mean, all my early work was just imitations of. 

Meg: The vulnerability, the relationship, the authenticity, the, the loss. Yet,he can still sing it. There's so much in such a simple action of that relationship. Wow, that's, I had forgotten that moment. 

Mike: Yeah, and he breaks down at the end. Like he, that's not in the script. Like in the script, he just sings it as he watches her go away. But what Robert Duvall does, he sings it and he can't get the final words out because his voice starts to shake. And it's just so simple and again, like so spare that's a writer who knew exactly the place that he grew up in and was going to put that on the page and then on to a movie. And so, yeah, that's like, that's the goal, right? I mean, I don't know. And the thing is, like, I, again, I don't know that I'll ever get there, but it's the trying to get there is best part of it.

Meg: And, it's beautiful to have that in your mind, even unconsciously in terms of knowing when you've arrived, right. And I think that for me the, the challenge of writing as a writer for someone else, be that a director, a studio, sometimes that thing that feels so divine to you, gets cut up.

Mike: Yeah. 

Meg: There were some things in "Inside Out 2" that were that for me, that are not in the movie. 

Mike: Right. 

Meg: Because it didn't fit with what the director wanted to do, which is absolutely fine and as it should be. But that's, I think why I'm so excited to just do this one. Yeah. To just have it, just have it for myself and for my writing partner, but yeah.

Mike: I, in, in "Dream" when Paula quits, I wanted forgetter. Like when you wrote the two forgetters, I don't know if they're called forgetters, but they have the big vacuum and they're just sucking up her dreams and throwing them into the dump. Right. That I wanted Paula to like, if what's the lowest for Paula? It's not just quitting. It's like actually making Riley forget things is the worst place she could be. And she, and Xeni finds her in the same kind of Paula Poundstone, Paula Poundstone is one of them, right? And we were going to bring her back, like, that's one moment where I go, Oh, I wish like we could have kept that, but no, it didn't fit.

Meg: It just doesn't fit sometimes. And yet we get to have it, like you said, in the attempt, right? And then I think it funnels, maybe we can't have that exact moment, but it funnels into something else more in line with what that movie is going to be. 

Mike, I could talk to you forever as usual. As usual, I'm now want more. I want more.

I'm probably just going to have to wrap it up because poor Jeff can only edit so much and for a show. But Mike, thank you so much. Congratulations on "Dream Productions". It's spectacular. So proud to know you and call you friend. I can't wait to see, I understand that we're waiting on the blank page, but I cannot wait to see what you do next. 

Mike: Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah, it's been great talking to you. This is like. Let's I think we're gonna do it again pretty soon because we're gonna both be at the Annie's right? 

Meg: Yes, we will both be at the Annie's. 

Mike: Yeah, so like let's just instead do the same thing but drink. 

Meg: Perfect! Perfect, perfect. Thanks so much to Mike for joining us on today's show.

"Dream Productions" is available now on Disney+. Highly, highly recommend. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.