241 | Bob's Burgers Executive Producers & The Great North Creators Discuss Adult Animation

The Molyneux Sisters (BOB’S BURGERS, THE GREAT NORTH) believe that character is at the center of all great comedy. For Wendy and Lizzie, specificity, character quirks, and close observations about the friends (and strangers) around them will always provide the cocktail for a great character. Hear about how these two found their voice, honed their craft, and became important voices in the world of adult animation.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Lorien: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Lorien McKenna, and today I'm thrilled to be welcoming Lizzie Molyneux-Logelin and Wendy Molyneux to the show. Lizzie and Wendy are best known for their work in adult animation, serving as creators, showrunners, and executive producers on the Fox Hulu series, The Great North, which was recently nominated for the Annie Award for Best TV Media Program Mature. I love that that's the way to talk about adult animation, that it's mature.

Wendy: Yeah, it's not.

Lizzie: Yeah.

Lorien: In addition, Lizzie and Wendy are writers and producers of the long running hit series, Bob's Burgers on Fox, for which they won an Emmy Award in 2017. On the feature side, they wrote The People We Hate at the Wedding starring Kristen Bell and Allison Janney.

They are what I like to call cross medium writers, meaning they work in TV and film in both live action and animation. Which is something I'd really like to get your take on, Lizzie and Wendy. So welcome to the show.

Lizzie: Hi.

Wendy: Thanks for having us. Yeah.

Lorien: Are you also cross genre or do you focus primarily in comedy?

Wendy: I don't think we've ever written a straight up drama. I think we toy with, comedic sci-fi or like genre, but still a little more in the comedy space. Okay. Yeah.

Lorien: And, and for our listeners at home, that was Wendy. Now Lizzie, so we can hear your voice. What's your answer?

Lizzie: My, my-- this is my voice. I'm Lizzie and I completely disagree. No, we yeah, I think that's fair. We'd like to do a lot of genre within the comedy space. We've done it I think with Bob's and Great North, we've kind of done those fun episodes that feel a little more in the horror comedy or sci-fi or romantic comedy. So, yeah, we're always trying to mix it up as much as we can within that space that we're in.

Lorien: Awesome. alright, before we get into more questions we're gonna start by talking about our weeks, which we like to call adventures and screenwriting. So I'll go first. So about two weeks ago, I took social media off my phone and news off my phone, which was very scary 'cause I'm very dependent on the, the phone as a security blanket, as a safety thing.

And it didn't take me long to get used to it, which I was surprised about. But what it's done is created this calmness in my head that has allowed me to let actual ideas that I'm working on or writing like meander a little bit longer. Like I don't feel so desperate, so panicked, so wanting to grab onto everything that I have and then squeeze all the life out of it, because I'm not doom scrolling.

And I have more time. And if I do have time and I'll pick up my phone, I'm like, oh, I can't look at social media and I'll think, wonder what else could I could do with my time? So it's been very freeing. I feel less insane which is really nice. And I have a problem starting writing. onCe I get into it, I'm like, okay, I'm in. Let's go. But, I don't know, ADHD, psychological problems, whatever. All the reasons why I have a problem starting, self-doubt, fear of failure, fear of success, all the things. But I'm actually, it's, I can actually slide into it now, rather than just start, stop. Because there's something about that doom scroll where you're like looking at a reel and it's 30 seconds, 30 seconds. And so my brain has stopped working on those mechanics. So it's been lovely. And then I get to control the input, what's going on in the world or other things. So it's been lovely. I feel less dysregulated, I guess is how I wanna say it. So it's been nice. Anyway.

Wendy: I've been going the other way with it. I used to be on Twitter and it was really destructive for me. And then I got onto Blue Sky, which I guess I had an account but I hadn't used it. And I was like, I'm back baby. I'm just a dirt bag again, I think. Constantly looking at it and all that. I don't think there's as many people on there and there's not as much noise. But yeah, I, I think I've gone the other way, way with it and I feel energized by my own anger and yeah, I'm just, I'm living my dirt bag life.

Lorien: I love it.

Wendy: Absolute lack of focus. But that's kind of how I am anyway. I'd never, I realized early in when we actually had careers, that the best way for me to get work done was to basically be like, you can do whatever you want. You can look at the internet as long as you want. You can put the TV on. You can do whatever the hell you want. And so that's how, that's the only way I can focus. If I tell myself even for a minute that I have to sit quietly and write, I'm like, nah, I'm outta here.

Lorien: So basically you're just rebelling against your parents. And all the authority figures. You can't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. I get to go to bed, whatever I want. Yeah. Okay.

Lizzie: Yeah. But it works for me because I do, I'll put on like a Real Housewives and get a bunch of work done because I'm telling myself I'm having a good time. And so that's what works for me. So if I tried your approach, I fear I would be, by the end of the week I'd be done. I'd be outta the industry. If I tried to quiet it down, there'd be no more, no more writing for me. So I'm just adding more distractions.

Lorien: Well, I think it goes in cycles for all of us, right? Like right now, this is working for me. But we'll see. Ask me next week and I'll be like, oh no, I watched all of Ted Lasso in one day while also writing and listening to these things. Who knows.

Wendy: Yeah. It could be anyone. You could be anyone next week.

Lorien: It could be anyone. Well, that's not untrue. So how was your week? What did you do? Did you just dirt bag it all over the internet this week? 'Cause that was your week?

Lizzie: Me? Am I a dirtbag?

Lorien: Oh, Wendy, I wanna know how Wendy's week was.

Wendy: Oh. How that affected my week.

Lorien: Or, just like how was your week as a writer? What's going on?

Wendy: Well, right now Great North is just in post, so we do some post work. So I think like also our work life mirrors this sort of scattershot thing right now 'cause we're in post on Great North. So, Great North, and Bob's operate out of the same building so we'll be at a Great North post meeting, and then we'll go downstairs to Bob's. We're currently outlining a script, so we go down and work on that for a little while. We have some feature stuff that we're working on, so we've really just been bopping around to a million different things, which is kind of how I feel like we always operate.

Like anyone who's ever well, can you do both? We're like, ha, we're doing five. I think that's maybe just our mode and always has been. So, I'd say it's been a good week I felt really, other than the world. Like, I think that's the thing. Right now the world feels really spicy and difficult and so having work to do is helpful. And appreciating too because there's a sense of doom right now, just appreciating a moment where you're like, oh, I'm in a writer's room with the people I really like the best on Earth today. What a great day. Who knows where we'll be three months from now. So I think that helps with productivity a little bit too, is trying to enjoy the good part of the day where that stuff you're talking about is a bit shut out because it has to be.

So on the, the writing front, I felt like a great week. In terms of the world, absolutely not.

Lorien: Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah, they won't let me be in charge of any of that stuff though, and it's annoying, so.

Lorien: Alright, Lizzie, how was your week?

Lizzie: Good question. What day is it? Okay, it's Wednesday. . Week's been good. It's interesting. I think I had a false sense of like when we wrapped up this season of Great North and were going to just be moving into post and then writing on Bob's, I felt ooh, okay, I'm gonna have so much like free time and space with my brain that it'll be almost-- just wild to like go from go, go, go, when we're doing our 22 episodes when you're overlapping with writing new episodes, animatics coming back, color cuts coming in, breaking a new story, getting notes back. So there's always like a lot of things happening. I had the sense that we would be like really slowing down and kind of coasting, but I think there's, it has in some ways. But I think we've also been really like devoting our brains to Bob's in a way that we haven't in a while.

And then, just the level that post is still at. And then we are working on a couple other sort of like feature things and outside projects. So I feel like still really busy, but in a good, maybe a little less frantic way then we were maybe a few months ago. So it's busy. And then I feel like for me it's, I've been really, I feel like I've been really into social media and certain, like reality TV a lot lately. And then this past week I started watching Penguin on HBO. And that's, like it so good. He invigorated me to be like, I wanna watch good, like really good intense shows that are super different from what I'm working on. And so every day I'm just like, I can't wait to get home and put my kids to bed because then I'm gonna watch one hour of Penguin.

That's where my brain is, right now. I was literally thinking about it this morning on my drive into work. I cannot wait to watch the next episode tonight, but I feel like I go through-- I'm sure, I don't know if you guys feel the same way, but it's like you go through periods of you're watching a lot of like really good things or intense things and then you're like, maybe it's when you're writing more, it's harder to do that. Like we're writing, like actually sitting out and writing a little bit less than we normally do right now. So maybe I have a space in my brain to be like, I wanna really just watch something that I'm gonna be like, wow, this is so well done.

Lorien: I like shows that I probably am not gonna write. Not only do I not have the craft or the interest in writing them, but like I love watching detailed huge world sci-fi shows. But my space is more in the half hour dramedy space. Right. No matter what I try to write, that's where it goes. I have sarcastic asshole characters who, it's not the big world, it's reality with big things happening. Do you find that too, or? I mean, I also like to watch the shows I like to write, but the ones that I really like, that just anesthetize me are like, so far outside my writing.

Lizzie: Yeah, definitely. I think that's like a really, really dark, like Penguin's very dark, and it's well acted, all of the things. But yeah, really dark and gritty I feel like I gravitate toward that the most because I work and animation and it's comedy. So definitely if I'm watching animation I'm thinking about work in some way. And then comedy, same thing. I'm like, oh, it's an act break, I'm thinking about that act break, I'm noticing that maybe they got a note on this story that like, I can tell they made a pivot or whatever. So I do like watching a bunch of things where I'm like, I don't know what, I have no idea what the experience of making this was at all.

Lorien: Yeah. I think that's, it's such a gift to turn off your story brain when you're watching something.

Wendy: Yeah, I can't. I mean I want people to be like, oh, have you seen this new animated thing? And I'm like, yeah. And I haven't, I'm just lying. Then if I tell a lie, then I'll go home and watch a little of it, but I just, I feel terrible for it. And we were talking to someone, but they were like a business side person, like a producer and agent, and they were like, and I said, I don't watch much animation because of that, because I can't unplug if I'm watching it. And they were like, but you don't, you wanna know what your competition's doing?

 That, plus one time somebody said, like another business person was like, writers don't like each other, they're all competitive with each other. I was like, that might be true for some people, but I definitely don't feel it. And I don't think of other shows as competition. I think that's very much like the business side where they know there's only four slots for shows so you actually are all in competition with each other. But I think you should never think that way. You have to put it out of your mind. You're not competing with anyone. If you don't get something, it was, it just wasn't yours. 'Cause it's such a unhealthy way. So yeah, the idea that I should watch it so I know what the competition's doing. I'm like, my competition is the fact that I wanna go to sleep instead of doing my work. That's my competition.

Lorien: Yeah. Mine is social media. That's what I'm competing against. How much head space do I have and what can fit in there. Yeah. No, I think that's, that's so true. I think that's a very American sensibility, right? That we're competing but it's a creative endeavor. I mean, we, when somebody comes out with something amazing and weird and like strange, that's a gift for all of us 'cause it's paving a new pathway for us. Your show, like the work you're doing is great for animation. Oh, we get to do fun stuff.

All right. So let's talk about animation. Before that, how long have you guys been working together? As sisters and a writing team?

Wendy: This is like in Pride & Prejudice where she says that with her sister's grown, she can't be expected to tell her age. Right? We can't, we need everyone out there to think, we're like ingenue who just started?

Lorien: Oh, I mean, obviously, me too. My references. Don't listen to my references. Okay. But, okay. How about this?

Wendy: No, but I'm just joking. We'll totally say. We've been working together how long now, Lizzie? Like, is it going on? It's like probably 16, 17 years.

Lorien: So you guys started really young, is what you're saying?

Wendy: Very young. Yeah.

Lorien: So what was it like, what, can you tell me in detail? I want specifics, like it's a scene, of how you guys decided to become writing partners.

Lizzie: Well, yeah. Okay. So the backstory is I was in college. Wendy was out of college. I had an internship at a production company. Everybody that wanted to get into entertainment at that time did in the early-ish 2000's. And so I'd ended up like pitching an idea for a movie in a light, non-real responsibility way. I think they were just giving me something to do. And I got a good reaction to it and so I asked Wendy what does this mean? What should I do? I said something that someone liked, what do I do now? And she was like, you should write this yourself. It's, yeah, just write it.

Lorien: The answer no one wants to hear, right? What should I do with this idea? You wanna hear oh, well I know this producer that's giving out millions of dollars, call them. Right. The answer should not be write it. Yikes.

Lizzie: I think I thought maybe you had to be like hired as a writer to even start to write something for tv. I just didn't quite, obviously had no idea how anything in the industry worked at the time. And so we started, I didn't know the first thing about writing and Wendy did. So we started, she kind of gave me guidance and we started working on it together. And from that, which was a very, we worked on this movie script for probably over a year. And then after we realized it was kind of fun to work together on stuff, so we continued to do so.

Wendy: Yeah, we had the same sensibility from growing up in the same house, I think a little bit. And also like before that it was fortuitous timing because I had, I came up through the improv comedy scene, and that's how I got even into the idea of writing. Originally I thought I wanted be an actor and then, figuring out that, oh, the reason I like improv is you are making it up or whatever. And I was really unmotivated to like even get headshots done, so I was like, there's something's wrong here. You have to have a headshot and I don't want to, I don't want someone to photograph me. So it was like, that wasn't gonna work. It, apparently the whole business is getting photographed, moving pictures.

So it, but I, through Improv Olympic had met this other really amazing writer, Kate Purdy, who created Undone and was a writer on BoJack. And she and I actually before, 'cause Lizzie was still in school, Kate Purdy and I were writing partners originally. And then we didn't split for any reason other than we both got jobs separately. It was one of those things where we were like, oh, let's try to write screenplays together. So we had. But then she got a job on like a murder show, like an hour long on, I think it's Cold Case. And I got a job on Megan Mullally's talk show, so we were like, I guess we're not really writing together now. We have these separate careers. But it wasn't like, oh, we're splitting up. It was just more oh, I guess we're not, this is, oh wow. And of course, 'cause you're young, you're like, well this is it. This is, I got this one job and it's gonna last forever.

Lorien: You made it!

Wendy: So we did it. And so then, and Kate and I, wound up amazingly, like in similar fields, doing the exact same thing and are still friends and all that stuff. But I was on my own and then right when Lizzie was having these conversations I feel like was when, like, oh, it was like, oh, there is no-- the Megan Mullally show lasted one year. And so I was in the wind again and so in a way, this was just like a fun thing to do, was to write this thing with Lizzie. And then yeah, we discovered like it was like, oh. I just really liked having a writing partner too. And so that was great that it turned out that like my sister was also interested in writing and that we could do it together. ' Cause Lizzie could have tried it and hated it too and instead I think we had a pretty good time writing that one. And then was it shortly thereafter I think we hooked up with these managers that were still with, Kaplan Perrone, Aaron Kaplan at Kaplan Perrone. And we've been there ever since. And that's been, that was the way we got into the professional stream, I had jobs and stuff like that, but it was very helpful to have someone who was managing us 'cause that was, obviously as we all know, you need it. You need someone to help you. You can't just walk in.

Lorien: Yeah. So was your goal to always create and write an adult animated TV show?

Lizzie: No, no. I mean, when we, I think comedy was always, that's where we started and have stuck. So we wrote, I think especially at that time too, it was like still in the everybody write your like comedy feature spec. So we had, I think the first I think we worked on was a, like a comedy feature. And then we ended up with Kaplan Perrone and then I think we worked with something a little bit like with them as well. And we were kind of, I think that was more of like the track we saw ourselves on. I think at the time was like we're gonna sell one of these. And that was still possible at that time, but everything's changed since then. So that was the, I think the path we saw ourselves going down.

And then, we eventually ended up with our agents at WME and that's how we, I think ended up getting read for Bob's. And so yeah, when we got read there, we met with Loren and Jim Dauterive, who was there at the time and had a staffing meeting. And we'd had I think a few other like TV staffing meetings before that so our expectation was sort of like, we're gonna go in for this and then we'll never get this job. And then we did, and that kind of just, that was luckily where we landed and really, obviously we were still on Bob's, so it was we were very lucky.

Lorien: What were those other staffing meetings that you didn't get? What advice do you have for anyone based on those experiences of what not to do and what to do?

Wendy: I don't, I don't know that we have any from when we did. I literally think we mostly had, Lizzie, correct me if I'm wrong, mostly what we had were like either generals or feature pitches on the feature side 'cause that was what we thought we wanted to do. And then we wrote this comedy spec, there was this producer who wanted to do four shorts about these women having a partying night on the town. And we said, okay, we'll write them, but we're also gonna write it as a long form pilot spec so that we get something out of this.

'Cause with all those things you always feel like this is not really actually gonna go anywhere. So we were like, we need to get something out of it 'cause we weren't getting paid. We weren't in the union, we were doing stuff on spec or whatever. Or it wasn't like a, it wasn't a job, it was like a guy who wanted to do some shorts. So we were like, okay, but we're gonna make it spec.

Lorien: We've all worked with that guy, who wants to do something.

Wendy: Yeah. He was totally nice. He was totally nice. But you know, he had an actress who kind of wanna do something. So we like said, okay, well, we'll write up these little internet shorts on spec, but we also made them into a spec pilot. And then we kind of liked it and we, so that wound up being the spec that we gave. I literally think, Lizzie, I could be wrong, we had had a ton of generals on the feature side and a ton of pitches on the feature side. We'd done one like rewrite maybe, on the feature side, I think for romcom where it was like an independent thing or whatever. And then we had that spec and I think that same day we had, well no, it was that week. The only, I think, Lizzie remind me if we got, if we had any other staffing meetings. I think the only other staffing meeting we had was for a reality show about Pauly Shore. Yeah. And I'm not kidding. That was the only other staffing meeting we ever had as a team.

Lizzie: And one other one.

Wendy: One other?

Lizzie: One other one for a good... I think for--

Wendy: Oh, Always Sunny!

Lizzie: Always Sunny. Yeah.

Wendy: It was Always Sunny. Yeah. And we were dying to get that and we didn't get it. But I don't think it was, I mean I think probably now if we watched video of that, we would know whether we did well in that meeting or whether there was something we did that was quote unquote wrong or maybe we just weren't a fit. Because I think a lot of times actually I think so much can get put upon oh, you did this wrong in the meeting or this right in the meeting. But I also think there's a certain lock and key quality. Because there was something about our spec and something about our meeting on Bob's where I think they decided, I mean 'cause it happened really fast to hire us right away after. So in some ways it was almost like it was ours to like mess up maybe. But something about that spec fit Loren's sensibility. So when we went in, I'm not saying we already had the job, but I think we were a fit for whatever he was looking for. And it's so ephemeral and it's so hard to pin down that I think people beat themselves up if they don't get a job or they think their spec wasn't the right one for that.

And you're probably right. You weren't right in that meeting and your spec wasn't right, but that doesn't mean that, I mean, we weren't right for the Pauly Shore reality show. So I don't know, good ups and downs. Something good can be bad, something bad could be good. So it's hard.

Lorien: I think that's such a good point because I think the question itself is flawed. What advice do you have? What did you do that could have been improved or different because you're right. You never know exactly why you don't get a gig. Right. That it is this chemistry thing or something. And unless you like throw coffee in someone's face or poop your pants, right? Like even then though, that might be a funny gag. I don't know who the audience is, right? But it really is such a magical thing, having staff to show, you guys have staff shows, right?

Wendy: Yeah.

Lorien: But there is that thing of you'll never know so people do tend to beat themselves up, right?

Wendy: They do. I think

Lorien: I've pitched and sold and written the pilot, and then it doesn't go to series. And so then there's the whole like, well fuck you. Like, on the show we talk about getting notes. The process is fuck you, what a terrible note. Oh, fuck me, what the hell am I supposed to do? And then, okay, what's next? When you don't get a project, it's fuck you, well fuck me. And you kinda get stuck there, right? Because there is no what's next. You have to move on from that project. I can only blame myself but you guys are sisters. Do you ever just blame each other?

Lizzie: Not yet. We switch off, one of us takes the blame for each thing that we don't get.

Lorien: Well because there's the postmortem thing where you're like, you hear why you didn't get the show right? There's always some reason that the executives tell you why it didn't work, and you're like, okay, that's probably part of it. And then you hear chatter about other things and you're trying to put the pieces together. It's just how do you. I mean the thing about blaming each other is a joke, I'm sure you do because you're sisters. But like what? It's so hard. It's hard. Like I still feel pain over one of the shows that didn't go 'cause I loved it so much. Like, how do you do that?

Lizzie: I mean, we did, oh, I was gonna--

Wendy: Go, go, go.

Lizzie: But I was gonna say too, I think the thing that I don't know, I mean I don't know if this is helps at all, but I think over time too you do see think more and more of the other side of things where you're like, right, this is just a it's like a business model on their side. They're looking, they've got-- I mean, it's almost similar to the staffing question too, right? It's like you have these spaces that are open and it's, I mean I'll speak to like when we've staffed. We read a lot of scripts that we love and then you meet all of the people that wrote them and you're like, I like all of these people. How do you, how do you just pick the two or whatever you need? I imagine it's similar with the shows that they're looking at, right? It's like they wanted to hear the pitch from you. They like your, your style of writing. They've read it, they, it's a good idea. But also then there's that second track of things where it's like, but does it go well with the thing they already have on that , that's doing well for them?

And sometimes maybe this other thing goes better and so that's why. It's not just simply what's the best and what's not. There's so many factors that go into it. So I feel like I, for me anyway, that's helped over time to know that. 'Cause we've had shows that we've pitched and loved too, and then they don't move forward and you're like. Sometimes they can come back around that's the good news, and then sometimes you're like it just wasn't the right place and time for that project to go forward and you have to just, I guess, accept it in the way that the universe decides things sometimes.

Wendy: Yeah. I think we just have very low expectations too. Also we like have this fundamental, like we do work compulsively, but have underneath it like a very fundamental laziness and love of doing nothing. And so if something doesn't go, I mean just tell yourself the upside: you don't have to do that work now. There was a bunch of work you were gonna have to do and now you don't have to do it. That's why Lizzie and I, we actually don't blame each other because I think we literally have the same mindset of just okay, well. Also I think we have that just like, your family has its own like fence around it where we're just both oh, fuck them. Do you know what I mean? The last thing we would ever do is say the other one. I think we apologize to each other rather than blame each other. There's that female thing too. I don't mean to be too gendered, but where it's like, where you apologized to a chair for bumping into it or whatever. Each of us would be like, I think I was talking too much during that one, or oh, I forgot to say that thing or whatever.

We went in for something this year, and it was a book. And our take was a lot more -- and it was genre-- and so it was like, we went really hard, just right at the genre. We didn't make it like too comedic. We, we really worked on this intricate plot and did all this. And we really liked it and we loved the pitch. We had a good time, the producers were awesome, the room was nice and whatever. And then the people that they chose, which wasn't us for that one, it was a very, very different type of writer, take, all of that.

So part of this too is now you're also up against sort of an algorithm. If the algorithm has recently been telling, if your pitch were for Netflix or Amazon, the algorithm has shown that that person has written something that really clicked with them. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't mean oh, they're like just an AI bot or whatever. It's just if they had something recently that really seemed to work and is working, 'cause I think there's a recency thing with all the streamers do, where you'll hear oh, their ideal age right now for a protagonist is 23.

So if your protagonist wasn't 23, maybe they don't think that's as good, you said 27 or whatever. So there's so many things going on right now where it's oh, if this feels like they'd like something a little broader or silly or less silly, or whatever the buzzword is right then. It might be that you worked really hard on something and it actually is a good story and a good take, but they're, the path they want just feels like they wanna veer off in this other direction right now. And again, that's just not something you can control. Because also, if you tried to do that and you're not that type of writer, you are going to wind up getting fired later. And that is worse than not getting the job, I think, although maybe you need the money. So maybe you wanna get hired up front and then get fired. But I mean, there's a lot of different scenarios.

Lorien: You just need the health insurance, right? Just get in. Just get in at the minimum.

Wendy: Get in, take your money, and get fired. It's not a bad, it's not a bad plan.

Lorien: We're gonna put that on a poster for you. Wendy Molyneux: get in, get your health insurance, get fired. There it is, that's a career made.

Wendy: That's, that's my Paley Center talk.

Lorien: Alright, so currently you have shows, you're working on shows in adult animation. Please define adult animation.

Wendy: No.

Lorien: The way I've always looked at animation and adult animation, and this is probably because the first two animated films I saw were Fantastic Planet and Heavy Metal when I was way too young to be watching either. Do you guys know Fantastic Planet? This movie has haunted me my whole life. This French experimental film from 1973. It's these blue aliens basically just getting freaky all over the place. I saw it when I was like six years old. Inappropriate hippie parenting. And then Heavy Metal when I was in junior high. So for me, adult animation has always been sex, dick jokes, butts, very male oriented, right?

But then you look at shows like the Simpsons or Bob's Burgers or Great North, and it's not that, but it's still adult animation. So what makes it that? For you, as a someone who works on these shows?

Wendy: For us, our animated world is more in the world of, oh, it could also be like Parks and Rec, or it could also be, not Friends, but you know what I mean. I can only think of shows that aren't a great comparison. But I think there is that notion that animation is always gonna be super out there, super experimental, it has to be animated. And I think both of the shows that we work on could almost be live action. And so I think that that's a little more, like you said, you always wind up back at the thing that you're good at or best at. I think that's usually where we wind up back. 'Cause I think things that have, that don't have a super strong story to them but are really visually experimental and wild and all that, I love it but I also don't think that that would be my day to day or bread and butter. I like to like tell the tale or whatever. And to really be joke oriented just coming from like an improv background or whatever, that's what makes me happy, gets me through the day. But I don't know. Lizzie, how do you?

Lizzie: I mean, yeah, I think that kind of, I guess there's so many elements to it now, and I feel like it's changed so much too. Just using the example of the Simpsons, it was like, I'm probably incorrect. It's not like the first of its kind, but it was definitely one of the first that sort of crossed into this mainstream TV comedy that was received by adults and kids alike. I think that there was that time, I remember when The Simpsons was first out that we watched it as a family. I think my parents like did, and I watched it as a kid growing up. But there were definitely those kids that I went to elementary school with that like their parents saw it as like this thing for kids and it was just being edgy to be edgy, and it was inappropriate, and sort of missing that whole like, the sort of commentary it was making. So I think, anyway I feel like I'm rambling here, but I feel like that kind of changed it, a little bit or just brought on this idea of animation can also just be like a comedy for adults. Something like, King of the Hill and stuff too. That's very much just a show for adults. Like it's saying a lot about our society, it's not like something you're gonna pop a kid down in front of and they're just gonna-- kids will tend to watch anything animation. But I think it just kind of changed the idea of what it could be.

And I think there's still that question. We pitch animation, we've worked in it for so long, there's always that sort of question of like why should this be animated? And I think in a way it's a strange question 'cause it's like, why not? You can make a lot of shows, I think live action but when you really think about a lot of comedies or even dramas or anything you watch that you really like, if you really think about it, you could, it could translate into animation probably. Like there, there's a version of that could be really interesting. So, I don't know where I ended up on the question, but I think it's just, I think animation has become so much bigger than it once was, that it's even these categories that still exist within it are really hard to now define because there's so many examples of different types of animation from comedy to drama and all of that. It's just the world has expanded so much. So I think it's just hasn't caught up yet.

Lorien: Yeah. I've been in animation different places for, I guess 20 years. Yikes. I mean, that's amazing. Yay. And there are so many misconceptions about animation. I get questions like, well, can I look at a script for animation?

And it's it's the same. Or how do you approach writing an animated project? I'm like, character, plot, story, theme. I mean, it's the same. And then there's the one where writers think that they can write a billion sets and a billion characters because it's not real. And that one I think is the most dangerous one.

Lizzie: Yeah.

Lorien: Because you get a script of 40 sets and you're like, 40 sets and a half an hour? This is the most expensive pilot I've ever read in my life. So what are things like in your experience, just thinking about writers who listen to the show, who are interested in animation, from where I get some of these questions. What other things come up for you when people are talking to you? About how do I become an animation writer? My response is always just right a show. Let me know if it's animated or not.

Wendy: Yeah. I think having that one thing inside of it that sort of necessitates it being animation is helpful. I think what was happening or we kept hearing was happening during the pandemic, for instance, because animation stayed alive where a lot of other things were having trouble, was people just taking live action scripts and saying, oh, we could animate this. And it's not that they're wrong, it's just that if there's not that inspiration at the heart of it that sort of feels like you wanted to animate it in the first place, that might be really obvious. And I think it is 'cause sometimes we've been sent up by reps or by the studio or whatever, being like is this something that you feel like would make a good animated project? And sometimes you could tell, there's a certain feel to it where you're like, oh, this was meant to be live action and not animated. But I think you're right. The bones of the telling the story and all that are exactly the same. The structure is usually a three or four act structure. It's all like the same kind of.

Lizzie: Yeah. And I think that, I would say the one thing I guess, 'cause I was just saying like you don't. Sometimes you don't, there isn't that clear thing that's like why it's needs to be animated but I do think there's like that one piece that I think we come back to a lot, or when we're thinking about a project or how to develop something in animation, which is there always is that element of voice acting, which I think is very different than live action acting. And when you work in animation for so long, you really, it becomes so clear to you. There are those people you work with that just they can carry the medium. It's just, that's how they really shine. So I think there's that element too of like sometimes if you're, I, I feel like people wanting to get into it too it's if you have an idea, that's great and then if you also have sense of that voice or like a comedian or actor that you feel like embodies that? I feel like so much of the life of animation comes out of that, of who's doing the voices. The same way, an actor would in anything live action.

That really kind of makes it, and that can be a reason why some of those, some shows work better in animation. The kids on Bob's burgers are obviously played by adult comedians. And so that's why it lends itself to that and that's why it, that works. So there's like, there's like those little elements within it that I think are good to pick out.

Lorien: I think that's such a great way to approach it 'cause we record the voices before we send it to animation, and then animation works from the script and the voice. So the voice itself, the acting, is driving so much of the, I mean, it's driving the animation. It's not like it's animated and then we dub it, the voice is forming so much. So I think that's an amazing way to approach writing an animated project is who you want in it. And then you know, you just go cast 'em and it's super easy and then they're on the project and you know you're done. Congratulations.

Wendy: I do think that's such a good trick though. I think something we encounter a lot in things that we read and at times when we're writing something is, okay, well two of the characters popped and everyone else felt like window dressing or whatever. Even for a small character, if you're having trouble bringing them alive, you're having trouble finding their comedic game, think of the actor you think would play this. Write towards that and all of your background players or the secretary or the, just the neighbor you see for a second who needs to tell them about the thing can come alive and I think that can be a real bifurcation between the scripts that you wind up being like, I really like this.

You could over, you could overdo it, don't get me wrong. 'Cause there's somewhere where you're like, why is everyone in the script shouting their personality at me? But I think even the smallest little character, I mean, 'cause when you think about it, when you think about your day, people are funny in that way. Like I went through the Starbucks drive through this morning, and the the guy at the window was like, oh, how you doing this rain? Huh? And I was like, yeah. I was like, I actually am a real gloom head, I love the rain. And he was like, oh yeah, me too. And I was like, oh, this guy, if you kept talking to him, he might shift to anything you said. And I was like, what a funny guy. He was so lovable too, but it was like he just wanted to, it wasn't in a bad way of I'm shape shifting. Like I had already done the tip thing. There was no motivation other than he just kind of changes with the wind of first he was like, I bet you feel down.

Then he is oh, you feel up. Yeah, me too. I also feel up. And so it's it's not, not like life. Think about all the times you're in the grocery store, in the parking lot or in an ordinary place and somebody just shows you in five seconds who they are. And it's kind of funny. And you tell someone when you get home, like this guy in the parking lot, like there was a guy who pulled over to tell me that my grocery cart was inconveniently placed for him. And I said, okay, I'm sorry, sir. And I had kids with me and I was just trying to load them the car. And he was like, well, I'm not mad. And then he sat there and didn't drive away, and I was like, what are we doing? But I mean, you do, even though like everyone around you, like there are no actual, like NPC is like, everyone has a personality. So even if it's just a tiny little thing. I do think that's something that helps people's kind of script jump out of a pack too, which I know probably a lot of people who listen to this think about that. You don't have to give everyone a lot, but if your main characters feel real and feel funny, then they need to live in a world too, where everything around them, you know? But I do think thinking about okay, so yeah, it is that person at the coffee window, but just for a moment you can imagine that that is Michael Cera and write the two lines the way you would imagine him-- he's not gonna play a two line coffee guy, but you're allowed to think whatever you want.

You're allowed to cast everything exactly as you want in your mind while you're writing it and that will help you so much. Once we started doing that I feel like that's like a big sea change for us when you realize oh, it's, I'm not saying this person will ever be cast. They are helping me write this. And they will never know. So I think that's a really especially if you're just starting out, it's a great way. Not like you're stealing their bits or anything 'cause they're gonna go through your filter, so you don't have to do like the comedy routine they do, but if you picture them, it just really will help you cast it as you go in your mind.

Lorien: That for all scripts, not just not only animation. Really helpful. It, it can be scary in a way 'cause you're picking, right? You're choosing. It's this, which often feels like, oh no, what if I do it wrong? What if I don't nail this person exactly or what if the person who's gonna read this doesn't like that kind of voice? And it's like you, no.

You just. Pick.

Wendy: Yeah. You have to pick a lane.

Lorien: You have to pick a lane. Yeah. It can be scary even for professional, successful, two shows, TV writers. You're working on two shows at the same time, it's still so-- okay to that. What are the things, so I ask a lot of writers, I work with some writers, I do workshops, and I always ask them, what are you really good at as a writer? Because we're so focus on what we're bad at. Oh, I need to work on this. I need to do, so what are each of you like? What is your super skill as a writer?

Lizzie: Ooh, that's hard to I feel like I would never ever say I have any skill that is a super skill.

Lorien: What do you feel good about? What do you feel good about, confident about? I'm really good at this.

Lizzie: I think, I don't wanna speak for you, Wendy, but I do think we feel very comfortable and confident in the joke area of writing. I think we've now are much more comfortable in the story space but I think initially coming into a staff job, coming on as professional writers or whatever, I think that was definitely a place where we felt very comfortable. Like we can pitch on a joke, no problem. So I do feel like that's a space that I've at least felt confident in for the last decade or so doing this. I think the story part was not as clear to me anyway. Like it, it definitely was something that being in a writer's room over time just taught me so much.

Like just how to think about story, how to really break it down simply. What kind of stories work, what don't, when are you like investing too much in characters outside of your own story to kind of carry it for you? All those little things that I think you pick up. I think some people come in and that's their strong suit and they're like, oh, I have to put a bunch of jokes into this? That feels stressful. So I think that's definitely a spot that I think we were naturally more inclined to do the jokes. Wendy, obviously you came out of improv, so that was like your every day.

Wendy: Yeah, I think I'm good at letting things go. I think that can be a strength just because I think you're always gonna be in a world of notes and your own notes and other people's notes. And I think that's like something out of improv that is good is because you always say it's paper mache or whatever, it's, you just destroy it right away and nobody ever sees it again.

I think we have an easy time letting stuff go but I do I think you're right, Lizzie. When we started on Bob's, and I think we were very naive we were like, oh, they put us in the joke room this week. Which I think actually now that I, now that we're this far down the road, like I think people might tend to put the people they think are the real heavy hitters in the story room, but to us to be put in the joke room, we were like oh my God, we're doing amazing at work. And so we were like so excited, but it actually was our strength. And I think sometimes, not to make this, this isn't a gender podcast but I think people might think oh, and this was also. Bob's has been on, we writing season 15 and that's an eon in writing like career time, is that we might not have been expected to feel good in the joke room and be the like, oh, we like to cut it up as opposed to sit and think thoughtfully. So I think that kind of that was great for us because I think we were able then to just be like, yeah, no, we're in comedy.

Like we're here to do the jokes or whatever. And I think that's how we've persisted since then. And I think that's been, we love it. I mean, I think we just come from a family like that where it's just we like to have fun so I think a joke room at work is completely our level. I do enjoy now sitting and thinking about story beats for a long time. Like I really like on Great North when we would have a challenge with a script, if we had the space of a whole day where we didn't have any posts to do or anything, and we just got to sit in there with five or six writers and rebreak a whole story, I now find that fun. I think back when we started on Bob's, I would've found it stressful because I didn't quite understand like those pathways yet. It's just a matter of time and I think like whether you're, you come, I can think of some people I know who came in on Bob's so good at story, but didn't speak up as much when it was time to pitch alts and stuff like that. And over the years they became much more, we've all almost been on Bob's from the beginning.

So we've watched everyone else change alongside us. So I think if you go into your first writer's room not as confident in a story, but, but happy about jokes or vice versa you don't have to panic that, oh, I'm not pulling my weight over there. Because I think now that we're showrunners, you see, you really love to have both types of people in the room. You can work on the other one, but lean into your strength. Be helpful in that area. Don't panic about the other one. Just try to learn from the people there that do that better than you. And you may never be equal in both, but you'll get a little better at the other one. And in the meantime, you're helping your showrunner and your show by leaning into the half of it that you're good. And if you're great at both, well, congratulations.

Lorien: You're a unicorn.

Wendy: On being a millionaire at 26.

Lorien: We're not a gender podcast. We're not specifically talking about gender, but we do talk about gender a lot. Meg and I are both women in the industry and I write comedy and I think your point is great that women are often dismissed in the joke department. In the comedy department. It's oh, you're interested in character and emotion and digging deep. And it, I just love that you're in, I love that you were in the joke room. That feels powerful to me and exciting and yes! Get your ass in the joke room and tell some fucking jokes because you can. Oh, I think that's amazing. And it is still rough to be the only woman in the world, or-- the only woman in the world?

Wendy: The woman in the world.

Lorien: Oh my God. Okay. Look. I'm a mom. My daughter's about to be 13 this weekend. I do feel like the only woman left in the world because it is me against her and I'm losing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's fun. But if you're the only woman in the room or one of few women in the room, it is still a power dynamic and it is still stressful. And animation is traditionally very male dominated, and it is a, it's a thing to navigate as a woman in the industry. So, yeah. I love the joke room.

Lizzie: Yeah. We obviously, we felt very, in retrospect, lucky to land on Bob's and we've never had that experience in that room. I mean, we came in, Loren, the sort of two writers and people he brought on with him, like when the show started, where Nora Smith, who now runs the show, and Holly Schlesinger, who also does as well. And so we felt a very, we didn't really have that dynamic coming from the Bob's room and that was obviously, amazing. But we've had our experiences for sure. In and outside of animation of being the only, the only women brought into the punch up day or whatever, when, and we'll, we've gone to excuse ourselves to the restroom to kind of chat about it really quickly before we go back in and pitch for the rest of the day. But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it, you have your moments.

Lorien: So what is a punch up room like when you go in to do punch? Are you going into a TV room? Are you looking at a script? Are you sent scripts sometimes and send in jokes? What does it look like to be a punch up writer?

Wendy: We do a film punch up, and I think we've done a variety. We've done everything from where it's a two day room and you're tasked with this room of really breaking a new movie in some ways, to this script is almost done and we're just here for jokes. We've had really collegial rooms where we all wind up texting each other afterwards. We've had experiences where we were the only women in the room. And a man talked for 45 minutes at a time at the table. I mean, we've had, I'd say, 'cause we've been doing this so long and we love doing punch up rooms, that it's really run the gamut. And I think it's really fun to like just go try to help with something for a little bit. Sometimes the personalities do overwhelm. I did do one and Lizzie was out that day where everyone who was there wound up getting an apology call the next day.

Lorien: Oh no.

Wendy: Cause of some of the topics of conversation that came up that were a bit wild and I personally was like, whatever. I've had so many experiences that I was like, oh, you're apol. Okay.

Lorien: Did something happen that was wrong? I didn't catch that.

Wendy: Well, I mean, I definitely, there was like a couple weird things that I was like, okay, this is weird. But I, the minute I walked out the door, it's not my job to be there so I was like, okay, I'm done. I'm just gonna put that one back in the wind or whatever. So we've had a variety, but I do think those are really fun because you can just kind of think, how can I help? How can I, what, what is, I think the challenge sometimes with punch up rooms as people, if you have one, is that when you're there early in the day, you have to suss out a little bit of the vibe. 'Cause some rooms are there for you to help and other rooms are there where it's clear they called you in to give them compliments. And I was in one of those, that was another one that you missed, Lizzie, where I went and I had so many thoughts. I was like, okay, the script isn't bad, but it needs a lot of stuff.

And I had so many scrolls and the margin and I was ready. And then for the beginning, like the producers were running it and they were basically like, isn't this amazing? And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I really liked on page four, it was like, oh, if I'm gonna say anything I have to start with, I really liked. So it's really interesting to feel out. And God bless. I mean, I think it went on to do well, so I was wrong and they were right. But. Or I was just, I had a different opinion. But I think those rooms are fun 'cause you just go in to be like, how can I help? Sometimes it turns out they don't really want help.

They just wanna be like, thumbs up. And so then you're kind of switch modes and you're like, Hey, thumbs up man. Because there's no point in being the crank in the room at that point. So yeah, we've had a wild variety of experiences on those. All fun in their own special way.

Lorien: All A plus. I bet. Absolutely. Even the ones when you're in the bathroom.

Lizzie: Yeah, you get really good stories out of it. And yeah, sometimes you get the plot of a movie that everyone in the world has seen many times explained to you as if you've never seen it. But then, you have something to chat about with.

Lorien: It's helpful. I mean, 'cause women aren't funny and we're also kind of dumb, so, I mean obviously you need some help, right?

Lizzie: Yeah, yeah. I think most of the time we have a good time. Fun thing is like, we've been on Bob's and Great North now for like our whole careers so I feel like we don't get to meet as many writers as maybe some other writers get to meet, so we're like, hey, other writers, we get to actually meet them and talk to them. So that's always a fun part too.

Wendy: Yeah. It's like when in the, in the Smurfs movie, when they find out there's a whole other Smurf area.

My only metaphor I can ever think of is someone from the Smurf movie.

Lorien: I mean, it's solid.

Wendy: My son did love what that Smurf movie that came out like 10 years ago. My son loved it so much that I saw, I'm pretty sure I'm the only person in the world who saw that Smurf movie four or five times. So it's my only operating metaphor for life as far as I know. It's my, it's my Godfather.

Lorien: So mine is Liv and Maddie. My daughter has watched that whole series A thou, I don't know, like six or seven times from beginning to end. So like whenever I think of something, I'm like, well, what would happen on that episode of Liv and Maddie?

Wendy: See, and I've never heard of that.

Lizzie: I think I missed that one.

Lorien: See you now. You're gonna go look at that up. You're welcome. You're welcome a lot.

Okay, so you're writing, you get stuck, right? You're writing an outline right now. So you're, something happens and you're like, okay, what we heard with the breakdown in the room is not quite translating into the outline and, but it is a problem that you have to fix. Like what do you do when you're stuck?

Lizzie: I think a lot of times that's what's helpful is that we have each other to like, bounce things back and forth too. Like a lot of times one of us will start something, or maybe even like rough in like most of the beats of an outline, and then like the ones you don't know, I feel like then you have that person to be like, hey, I didn't know what to do here, so maybe something will come to you. Here's, here is the writing for you now to look at and think on. But I think other times, like if it's a, obviously a if we're under more of a deadline, like if we're on a script and something's not quite working, I feel like a lot of times one of us will just try something and then we'll tell the other person like, here's what I tried, here's what I was thinking, here's how I wanted it to work and be successful.

But you read it now and you tell me like honestly if it's working or not. So I feel like that's, that's the nice thing about having a writing partner is I feel like you always do have that sort of sounding board to go to when you, I don't know what yeah, it's hard. It would be very difficult to be just stuck completely on your own.

Lorien: It is, I just want you to know that it is.

Wendy: I also feel like every answer you're looking for is always an act one. If you don't have act one, you don't have a screenplay or a script. So if you are stuck, close your thing for a while, take the afternoon or take 30 minutes or whatever, then go back and literally go back to act to the first page. Because I think when we're writing movies, we'll always every time each of us gets it back, go back to page one and at least read all the way up to the point and then keep going or make changes along the way and then keep going. If I'm stuck in act two, I will literally go back to act one and see if there's any proofreading, small changes and whatever, and by the time you get to two, a lot of the times you've figured it out because what was actually missing is not something in two. It's that in order for that piece of two for them to have that conversation at that restaurant, oh, you never set up an act one that he was, that this little piece was gonna come later.

It's almost always in act one. I think your problem is always at the beginning. Act three is in act one, everything's in act one. So if you're stuck, just go back and rewrite act one for yourself, and you'll probably figure out why you can't move forward. I mean, on a practical or technical level, I think it's almost always, you can't have a story. If it's not in the beginning, it actually can never happen, so you have to go back.

Lorien: How do you approach creating an amazing character introduction? What are you thinking about when you're going into it?

Wendy: I think you think a lot more about writing than we do. Just kidding. Sorry.

Lorien: I have podcast about it! Literally.

Wendy: That's what I'm saying! I think there's an extent when anybody asks us like a, a craft question, we both just freeze. 'Cause we're like, oh, I don't know we never talk about it in a

weird way. . We never discuss it.

Lorien: Here's what I do. I try to set it up because I don't have a lot of patience sometimes and I know that I write long, so I'll just be like, how can I, where can I find my character in the middle of something chaotic? So okay, she's freaking out at the man at Trader Joe's because she can't find the apple juice, but he doesn't work there. Right? Okay, what does that look like? Is that where I wanna be? So I'm trying to drop them into the middle of, or I drop into the middle of something they're doing because I don't think intellectually about this stuff, right?

I'm not like, you need this piece of the craft or this, I'm just like, okay, I need some chaos. She's chaotic. And then I just start writing from there. Yeah. What's your strategy when you're like, how do I meet this character?

Lizzie: I mean, I think that's smart. I think that's just a good also way to think about writing in general, right? It's if you're writing a pilot, like it's, it feels like at times you can get bogged down in set up. And I would say after, we've read a lot too, 'cause just going through staffing a few times and all of that you read a lot and there's, there's those scripts you read where you can feel like all the mechanics are getting set and you're building everything up. And I think you, for that example, like with character, it's kind of the same thing, right? You wanna be able to like drop into something. Like when you think about your favorite shows it's probably like by, three minutes in, you're like, I feel I'm starting to feel like I understand this. I feel comfortable here. I don't, I'm not like, it, it doesn't feel like a slow parade of information that is eventually gonna pay off.

So I think that is a good way to think about just writing in general. And, I think you ha you get that once you're, like on a show like Bob's or the world is built, your characters, you can just drop into the top of a scene and Gene's making a joke about X, Y, or Z and that's totally fine. You don't have to set it up. So in some ways it's maybe, for anyone who's writing, trying to write a pilot or write something, imagine everybody knows the world that you have in your head already and just start it. Because you can probably overthink how to set up any scene, any character, anything that's happening. But you gotta give your reader or audience or whoever kind of just give them that hope that they're gonna feel comfortable. Like they're probably gonna be okay. They can get dropped into a lot of things. There's 500 shows on TV that people do that with all the time. So you can give them that little space to they'll catch up in time and know what you're getting at.

Wendy: Yeah. And I think another opening thing when, I was using the time 'cause I'm a very deliberate person, so if I don't know a question ahead of time, sometimes I don't know how to answer it.

Lorien: Surprise know this is a Gotcha. This is a gotcha.

Wendy: I know. It's a gotcha. We've actually never written, we've never written anything. Our mom writes, our mom writes her scripts. Yeah, it's nice. She takes a huge cut. She's very greedy. But, also, I think for our TV scripts, I was thinking about the last four pilots that we've done or whatever, is introducing two characters who have known each other for a very long time in relation to each other at the top, especially for tv 'cause I think it goes back to, and sorry, I am always going back to like my improv training. The dorkiest type of training there is, is like when you're on stage you get to imbue the other person with their characteristics and they imbue you with yours, is it takes away that like some of the exposition stuff can go away because you see how the person who's known them a long time treats them and what they expect them to do.

And so it helps, it helps a lot too if, if especially if it's like an ensemble show, you can get 2, 3, 4 of them in and just see how they treat each other from the jump and that's how it continues. I think is really helpful. 'Cause Lizzie, I was thinking about like literally the last four things we've done, it started with two of our characters who know each other very well in that opening scene. And it takes a lot of the onus off of you that when one of them does the crazy thing, the other one doesn't turn to them to be like, you're crazy. They anticipated them behaving that way and immediately start either compensating or participating. And I think that's, I think especially for tv which is what we do the most of, like really helps you start with that kind of this is how these people relate and how the audience should also expect them to behave going forward. If this person's nuts, another person, the minute they become nuts, joins them or helps them or whatever, that's how you're gonna know like that's how it's gonna continue as well.

Lorien: I think that's great. I think Ted Lasso and Schitt's Creek are such great examples of that. Meeting them in, you're not like, you don't meet Ted Lasso when he is at home and like getting, he's had marriage troubles and I think I'm gonna go to England. You just meet him on the plane and then boom, he's there. But he has co, he has Coach Beard with him to reflect that back. And then Schitt's Creek, of course you have the chaos of them, everything being taken out of their house and they're all relating to each other and you learn so much about them and then they're at the hotel.

Wendy: They're all behaving in the way they've always behaved and that was always a thing too with like scene work. There's always so much talk about conflict and you have to have conflict and all of that stuff, but I think sometimes when you're starting out writing, people might take that to mean, oh, this person acts this way and the other person opposes them.

As opposed to, oh no, this person can have any sort of, the conflict can be an internal, external, whatever. This person can also join them. Like the game of the same needs two players. And so it doesn't have to be like, conflict doesn't have to be mistaken for literal actual opposition. No, you can start something that way. Absolutely. But you're also gonna learn a lot from two people who have been locked in like a little game of two for a long time in their lives, or of three or of four or whatever. When people walk into cheers, Sam Malone isn't like, why are you acting this way today, Norm? Or whatever. I'm mad at you like that. I mean, it's very 1 0 1, but I think when you hear that word conflict and you're starting out, that's what you think it means. And it's not that, you know what I mean? The conflict can arise from without, as well as within.

Lorien: I was talking to a writer recently and we was talking about obstacles in the same way. Like an obstacle is just it. It's like a tree in your path. Get over it, cut it down, burn it, walk around it. It is not like the tree. It, it was just such an, it, just a, I don't remember what her interpretation of an obstacle was, but-- see that was a great example I just used there. Very clear. I'm a storyteller you guys..

Wendy: Uhhuh Uhhuh.

Lorien: Yeah. I don't remember what my point was. Okay, we're just gonna cut all that where I sound stupid.

Wendy: You doesn't sound stupid.

Lizzie: I get what you're saying.

Lorien: What was I saying?

Lizzie: There's more ways to approach it. It doesn't have to be so literal or yeah.

Lorien: Right. And it's an obstacle with the getting the goal, not just some, you don't just throw the tree. It's whatever, stupid. And now I'm doubling down on sounding ridiculous and now I'm imagining a scene with the tree and why is she on that path? And it just, it got out, it got outta control.

So, you two are awesome and I really would like to talk to you forever, but. Before we go, we like to ask everyone the same three questions. And the first one is, what brings you the most joy about writing?

Wendy: I mean, I like writing. I know I'm supposed to be like, it's, I hate it and I don't wanna sit down and do it, but I actually really like it. I find it's like I have a obsessive compulsive disorder. I have anxiety when I sit down to write, I'm just like, ah, this is my little oh, these are my puppets or whatever. It's an idealized kind of situation where you can escape into it. And I think that's nice. That for me, that, that makes me happy. Now I sound like a control freak, but I think it's that I can, there's no problem

Lorien: I'm throwing a tree in your way quick!

Wendy: There's no problems. There's no problems in there you can't solve. The world is very chaotic. So then you sit down and write your script and you can just have a good time with the, what you're working on. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be super serious.

Lizzie: I think for me it's a, I don't, it's not totally opposite, but it feels a little opposite to be like, I love I do love the collaboration piece of it. I think, obviously Wendy and I are writing partners, so like we always, even when we're writing something just us, there's that element of collaborating with someone. But I think the more I've been a writer over the years, I think that at first that can feel scary to like collaborate or to be in a writer's room or to like, work with artists or actors or any of that. I think it can feel scary sometimes. Like you're like, yeah, you're losing control or you don't quite know exactly. You don't have the answers for everything. And now it's I see the other side of it where it's like kind of fun to not to like, not know exactly how something will completely come together and be created into something bigger.

And that part is actually really fun. And I think the more I get excited about that piece of it more than I, I used to. So I think I really do enjoy that. And just, I mean, just being in a writer's room is great.

Wendy: What pisses you off about being a writer or about writing?

I don't think I have anything because I don't think, I thought I'd, this is gonna sound terrible, but I don't think I'd have a good life. I sound like Tina. I don't know. I didn't think, I was not a writer for a long time. When I first got outta school, I worked a million different jobs, which now I'm glad I did, but I find this career to have been like beyond my wildest dreams. Like I just, I think it's, it is I feel very fortunate to do, so there's nothing. I wish I had something that was like, oh, that makes me mad. I literally, almost everything else in life makes me mad. So this is my thing.

Lorien: It's your safe place.

Wendy: Yeah. This is my safe place. Although, listen, I don't always love getting notes. Let's be honest. And keeping my face composed when I get notes is the worst possible scenario for me. But yeah. Okay. See, I thought of something I don't love always getting notes. .

Lorien: No, that's a good one.

Lizzie: It doesn't piss me off. I think there's a few things that we've worked on that I like, we love that didn't ever come to be, and I wouldn't say it pisses me off, but it makes me a little sad. There's some things that you work on that you're just like, this is really special I love it. And there's plenty of things that you work on where you're like, I don't know if I love this.

Wendy: Yeah. Get outta here, this.

Lizzie: So the ones that don't get to, become what you had imagined are hard to let go of sometimes. But I also think, yeah, like life is long and you never know. Maybe there's a different version of it that'll come around again or you'll, so I think that's the hardest part, but I wouldn't say, it doesn't make me super mad.

Lorien: Are you two optimists? It's really bringing me down. I know.

Wendy: Sorry.

Lizzie: I'm sorry.

Lorien: I'm kidding. No, I love it. I actually really do because I'm in this space where I have one more question, but I'm in this space where writing and working, writing started being work more than it was creative and work, and I really was losing my joy of it and the fun of it and the escape of it, which is why I got into it in the first place.

Oh, I get to go escape and have fun and just the pressure of it became so hard and so big and it, the last couple weeks I'm like, oh wait, this is fun. This is, it's not just a job. It's not just I'm not defining myself by my work. It is part of who I am, which is I make up stories in my head and yeah, to go visit a magical, weird places that no one else has ever thought about and muck around.

So I really, listening to you both just now was really, it just clicked that into place for me, so thank you.

Wendy: But I will say that I mean, there was a time a few years ago where I had a low. Where it was like something didn't work out and then something else didn't. And then we had someone, in the orbit who we don't have contact with anymore. And day to day you get notes from a lot of different people across a lot of different venues where, it was like, I'm not a, I'm not a robot. So things can get said that make you go wait, am I actually really bad?

And just to feel low and to feel like it's not creative or fun anymore. Especially sometimes 'cause of the stress level, like television can be very time consuming too. And during the pandemic, our hours were nuts and we were up till two in the morning and it was filling in spreadsheets with little animation notes.

I mean, don't get me wrong, this, I think right now we're at a good moment and having a lot of fun and we're outta the pan-, not outta the pandemic entirely covid still exists, but got to get back in person and with people, which is something that we enjoy. I think when we were isolated, it was really hard and we both had really low moments. So I think definitely don't take away from this, that we're like bouncing around on clouds all the time. But I think at this moment, like it's a fun moment or feels optimistic. So it's not all the time. I just wanted to say that you're not, you're not alone.

Lorien: I love that to be able to talk to writers though, that are having a good moment right now because it's few and far between. I mean, there's a lot of people, like emerging writers, professional writers, everybody's, there's a struggle going on. So I love that you're able to celebrate we're working. And that's amazing. And you feel good about it.

Wendy: Yeah. And, and our shows on the bubble, like Great North is not guaranteed to get picked up or anything. I think though, in a way, like even, with it on the bubble, I think maybe the good moment in a way is even more just coming from, for some reason having like fun with the people we get to work with now. And maybe even having the hard knocks or knowing this might not last. So it's just trying to enjoy that moment and not get to, you know what I mean? Not get ahead of ourselves. Like I, I'm fully aware a brick wall may we'll be coming towards us quickly and we don't even know it.

Lorien: I'm always looking up for the big black boot that's gonna come sailing out of the sky. But it is nice. It is a great, healthy place to be where you can appreciate that you are having fun with the people you're working with, right? That is, instead of only looking up for the big black boots coming out of the sky, I know what the boot looks like and everything.

Wendy: Yeah. Oh, we've been, we've been there.

Lorien: Alright, so my last question is, if you could go back in time and have coffee with the version of yourself right before something big was gonna happen, what advice would you give her? 

Lizzie: That's hard. I think for me, I would say I think I it is interesting. I think being a writer, it's been such a fun and like fulfilling thing. I love doing it. I love this job. I feel so lucky that we've been able to do it for so long. I think I've attached so much fear to writing when I first started out. Like I was so worried about getting things wrong all the time that it almost, it held me back a lot from even I think feeling creative or trying things or speaking up and doing all those things or letting myself just feel creative in a way that I wasn't like also really worried about being wrong.

I think that's such a strong or perfect or whatever. So I think I would just say that it's easy to see it now where you like go through so many drafts of things and see just over time how many pitches you work on and how many stories get changed and all of that. That it's like there's, it doesn't really, there's no really like perfect smooth path when you're doing this, but to let that piece of it go and just kind of enjoy the, I hate saying, enjoy the creative process.

Lorien: Process. I know, I saw it coming.

Lizzie: It's true. I think, and a lot of times, like this is also cheesy and very cliche, but the, when the bad versions of things help you see the good versions of things later and you can't, there's just, it's ever evolving. So I think I would just say it to let go of that sooner. I probably wouldn't be able to do it completely, but I, 'cause I still have some of it, but just let it go and try to like, enjoy the yeah, the experience.

Wendy: I don't, I don't know if this would be yeah, I guess advice for me. I didn't get staffed, I became a staff writer on Bob's Burgers in my mid thirties. I am oldest of the hills, which is why I didn't wanna say so earlier. Seasoned, I'm so seasoned. But I think I had let it go that I was gonna become a professional writer in a way. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's not advice, but that's to say, I don't think I would've gone back and be like, don't worry kid. You're gonna make it. You're about to get on Bob's burgers. I think that if anyone was though struggling with looking at an age point or this or that. Something I always say to people is you don't have to be young when you're starting. You're new. So even if you happen to be older, but you're a new voice, you have a new thing, you wrote something cool people are interested in, it's okay.

Don't get too attached to that age number. Even if you're saying, well, 35, that's younger than I am, it's that's great. I mean, Lizzie and I are working on something now that has a lot of older people in it. And when I think about if we did, if it did go forward, the staff would need some would need writers more of a, that are more seasoned like myself. So it's like you don't have to get so caught up in the oh, it's this age and I haven't done it. Which I know this is so cliche, but I think it's also very, very real. I felt like, hey, I'm not gonna get to do it. And I made a peace with it and then this happened and it was cool. And then I think that, just the other thing, I wound up also having four children after that point. So I think I would just tell myself to lie down more 'cause once you have kids, you never get to lay down. And I'd love to lay down my favorite moment at night. I just got a new comforter.

Love to lay down under that thing. That's my best friend in the whole world now, my new comforter is. So comfortable. So I think I would just tell myself, but that is another thing. If you actually do get or launched out of a cannon into a career that's really taking off, you won't have time to go have coffee with friends and agonize over you how your career's not taking off anymore. So even if you have less money, but more time right now try to, to get that angle on it a little bit 'cause I think back then, if I'd known, I would've been like, oh, I'm gonna take a walk. I'm gonna lay down. I'm gonna do this. So enjoy the moment that you're in and still believe in yourself that you can get to that next moment. It's out there, it's waiting for you. You just don't know exactly when or how.

Lorien: I think that is a perfect note to end the show on. So thank you both for joining me today. It was a delight to talk to you both.

Lizzie: Thanks for having us.

Wendy: You're welcome. It was very fun to talk to you.

Lizzie: Very delightful. Thank you so much.

Lorien: Thank you so much to Lizzie and Wendy for being on the show today. I had great fun and was very inspired talking to them both. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.