242 | Welcome To Wrexham Showrunner John Henion Discusses Theme As A Central Creative Throughline

Whether you're on your billionth draft, or stuck in post on a docuseries, finding a connective THEME to tell your story is one of the most valuable ways to create a cohesive and satisfying story. Today's guest, John Henion, understands that better than anyone. His impressive career as an episodic documentary filmmaker includes shows like CHEF'S TABLE and WELCOME TO WREXHAM, but whatever the project may be, John tells us how it always comes down to finding the emotional center of your story.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg: Hey everyone. Welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. Lorien can't join us today, but I'm so, so happy to be welcoming documentary filmmaker John Henion. His accolades include Emmy IDA, critics Choice PGA, James Beard Awards, and he's recognized for his distinctive cinematic documentary style.

John has made significant contributions to the premium documentary revolution in streaming television, particularly in the worlds of sports biography and food. John's portfolio includes the HIT series Welcome to Wrexham on FX, Chef's Table, Fearless and the Playbook on Netflix, as well as Dear... and Messi's World Cup: The Rise of a Legend on Apple TV Plus.

And he is currently directing a six part series on Alabama football in the wake of Nick Saban's retirement. And I cannot wait to talk to you, John, because there are so many incredible insights and perspectives that we as writers can get looking at storytelling from your unique point of view as a documentary episodic TV showrunner creator. Welcome to the show, John.

John: Well, thank you for having me. It sounds really special when someone else reads that.

Meg: Doesn't it? I know. It's always wow, I'm impressive.

You're impressive. You're impressive. Those are all such amazing creative shows and I'm so thrilled to have you to talk about them. I'm so interested to talk to you about how you approach creativity through this more documentary lens.

Now we do start each week with adventures in screenwriting or how was your week? And John's agreed to jump in. I'll go first. I sold a pitch with my writing partner and we sold it in the room and it was so great. And you're just patting yourself on the back like, we're so awesome. We're amazing, we're such great storytellers.

And then you go and try to outline it and actually write it and you're like, oh yeah, no, this is not, it's like literally it's okay, that pitch, we kind of were bullshitting our brains out. Like we didn't know we were bullshitting. But we were totally bullshitting because 2B is not even in the pitch.

Like there, the whole giant sections of the story are not in the pitch. And suddenly you have to find the story. You have to be like, well, what is she doing? How is he doing that? Does that even work? And so we're kind of honestly throwing out a lot. And we tried to do the pitch as it was pitched. We tried to outline it.

You just suddenly realize, no, okay. We just spent two months outlining the pitch as it was pitched, as a screenplay and we have to throw it all out. So it's kind of, just the process. And I know a lot of young writers don't wanna throw out 'cause they feel like, I have spent two months doing this version, I have to make it work.

But so what we did to try to get over that in our brains. Is, I just said to my writing partner, well, you keep hacking away at that. I'm just gonna take today and I'm gonna do a different version of act one. Meaning literally take a different point of view. I think we might have the wrong main character and what if it's him and not her and just see if it works, because what if it works?

And it kind of did. Now there's always the danger as my friend likes to say, "is it better or just different?" I'm not exactly sure yet, honestly. No, but I do believe it's actually better. There's all kinds of problems still and challenges within this version, but the only way I think it might, the reason it might be right is because it just feels more fun to do it.

Just I want to do this. I want to figure out these problems, versus the other version was just a ring of hell. It was just, oh my God, so crunchy, grumbly ugh. So hard. And I just kept thinking it shouldn't be this hard. If it's this hard, something's wrong. So I'm just gonna go with the river and that the river's flowing.

And who knows? Maybe next week I'll tell you I went back to the other version, but maybe I'll come back to the version with something I needed to go on. So I just bring it up. 'cause a lot of writers don't wanna do those big jumps because it feels like you wasted time. Yeah. And I have my heart too, but sometimes you just, you gotta waste time.

You gotta take. Take the new version. So that's what I did. This week. Yeah. Not the most fun I've ever had in my life. I'll be honest. I don't know. But you're a documentary filmmaker, but, okay. I have so many questions for you, but I'm not gonna get into it. First. I wanna hear about....

John: well, I have my version of that.

Meg: Yeah. What is yours?

John: Happy to share it. Yeah. Because yeah, I, it's funny because I find so many parallels there. It's just a different form. I mean, you know what you said about, is it better? Or is it just different? I think about that all the time too. A lot of that's in reaction to like sometimes getting notes and things like that.

It's is it better or is it just different? Right. But then, it's an iterative process, and sometimes you get really emotionally attached to certain scenes or certain sound bites. You're even, and then you start trying to like build the house, the structural house around those things.

And like whether it's a script, a novel, or a documentary, like there has to be an intuitive scent for intent in terms of this scene leans to that scene. This thought leads to this thought and some of those things that you fall in love with are the, as we say, which is not very pc, we gotta kill that baby.

Yeah. And like just this week I'm actually trying to close out the sixth and final episode of that Alabama series that tides it bind, and it's the first time in my life I've ever been up against an air date. So I've gotta lock this episode in. I think I have five or six more edit days now.

And there's just certain things that are getting in the way and like one of these things that I just love so much, like my quirky style is shooting these little like texture, color of life scenes. And there is these wonderful people in the traffic office on the University of Alabama that like just love to talk football.

So I went in there and I shot them like just bantering about football and we really want to close the series out with just a button scene of these three people. It's very much like workaholics or the office. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a very drab office environment. But we keep on, they just get in the way of the natural story arc, right? And so we just keep moving them around and we're finally like, just this morning I think we gotta kill the baby. Like just get it outta the way.

Meg: Try a version where it's not there.

John: Yeah. And then we come up with other ideas like, well, can we just cut the black at the end and then just have them pop up for a little punchy, like one liner at the end.

That's fun. It's always feels really painful, that process, but then when you figure it out, there's just such a like, it's oh, of course that was the answer all along. Why did we just...

Meg: right?

John: Why didn't we know that?

Meg: People forget, like sometimes people will say as if Inside Out, just of course.

That's emotions. And those are the emotions and that how it work and those, and you're like, yeah, no, it's not. Of course. Like at all. There's no, of course you just have to chunk that out and do it wrong and that doesn't work and crap. And it's so, it's such, it is such an iterative process.

I have so many questions. Okay. So Sure. When you're going to. Do you pitch the shows? So do you go to Apple or whatever and pitch it or have you, are you making things and then finding buyers? Because I'm interested in how you approach the concept of a show. Right. And are you having to figure that out first to pitch it?

Or do you go shoot and find a show?

John: All of the above. All of the above. Yeah. If you wanna start from the beginning, like I, I sort of, I, I didn't go to film school, I didn't study this in an academic way. I didn't start as a PA in workup. There was this moment in time where I'm gonna be a documentary film maker and I'm gonna figure it out.

And it just happened to be like the early two thousands when Final Cut Pro came out and like cheap cameras were there. So the bar for entry was a lot lower suddenly. So you could just figure it out and that led me to my first job and second job and whatever. And then I went out and shot my own sizzle reel for a TV series that I wanted to make about this minor league, baseball league, like low level independent baseball league. And I found a production company in LA that wanted to partner on it, pitch it, sell it. So there was that natural path of coming up with a concept, coming up with the materials to sell it.

And then we went and made it. But since that time, and I've sold one other show that way in partnership, the second show I partnered with Boardwalk Pictures, which became a relationship that, I continue to have. But then once I became, a co-EP showrunner director, you start getting things that come to you.

And so producers have already packaged it, maybe put together a deck, maybe. And a lot of times like IP comes into it, like they'll have a deal with a celebrity or an athlete or in these days and times it's off often with the league like F1 or NFL or something.

Meg: And do you say, let say something comes in with IP, do you have to, I would still think it's still the same creative process that you have to find your emotional, we call it lava theme within that. What is the show like, like it's, and sometimes we're trying to explain this to emerging writers, you have this world, but what's the show and what's gonna get people coming back every week? Do you, how, what's your approach to finding concept?

John: That's really good question.

I mean, there's just like the pre-pro research and development. It just depends though. So if I get contacted for, let's just use Welcome to Wrexham as example. So that show came to me. It was already sold right. Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney. McElhenney having a great relationship with FX because of 500 years of being on television with all these, so, so you know, sometimes they come pre great green lit and then you just have to figure it out.

And so that one did and there's an idea of the direction, but then, I get hired and I help form what's the approach, like what's the narrative approach. We're gonna do that. And it's not like one person is just figuring out you're working with other producers, including, the talent for that show and the other eps and stuff.

But sooner or later, like my processes generally to put together. Some kind of document, like a pitch deck even after the sale that's okay, here's how I would break down a season. I don't, I typically don't go as far as casting. A lot of people do that, like where they'll go through an extensive casting period, but I'm more like, here are like the archetypes, here are the feelings, here's the tone.

And usually that's part of also, so like a lookbook, like a style guide. Right. It kind of gives a sense of like the visual style. Now, what's interesting in a lot of documentary, at least my type of documentary, that style often breaks down because I think there's like quality and authenticity and I'll always go for authenticity.

And like smaller crews always lend for like more intimacy and authenticity than having 12 people in the room and like changing out light bulbs and making sure the light is right. So then there's, so, you kind of walk into it with the best idea in terms of the look and the style.

But then, a documentary also is a lot about adaptation and like going with the flow. So I've never had a project where I'm like, here's the deck and it's gonna look exactly like that. And you get out on the other end and it's see, I told you I was making that .

Meg: Exactly. Now Wrexham, because you brought it up.

So it comes to you. But you have to say, here's my approach. So what was what, because I love the approach on Wrexham. I think it's so genius. It's actually the approach is my favorite part of the show. But I don't wanna say what the approach is. Yeah. What how did you find the approach what was emotional to you about, what was your thinking about it?

And I mean, and for our listeners who maybe have crazily not seen the show yet. What was the approach and how did you get there?

John: I'll start with what attracted me to the project. And, true crime and things like that are very popular in documentary. I don't have much interest in that whatsoever.

I like projects about joy. Like I wanna watch TV and feel happy and, like after a long day I don't want to see Jeffrey Dahmer on my tv. And so the thing that drew me to the project was this idea that I think originated with Rob McElhenney and then Ryan Reynolds became part of that project too, was like, here's this town and we're going to bring a, we're gonna sprinkle like magic stardust all over it.

And to see what that does and I dunno if you remember, but it was like 2020. So there was a pandemic.

Meg: Yeah.

John: And I also wanted to. Well, I shouldn't say wanted or to like, it was such an opportunity to be able to riff off of the humor and the point of view of Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney, which gives you license to be quirky and weird and different.

Meg: Yes.

John: And going back to that show I told you about minor league baseball, like I, no one ever saw that show, but it was very quirky and it was kind of like real life Christopher Guss, where it was this town in the southwest in Trinidad, Colorado, Southern Colorado. Which, its only other claim to fame was being the sex change capital of the world for 40 or 50 years.

And there was a town of 12,000 people and they had a baseball team called the Trinidad Triggers in the Pecos League, which is not affiliated. Players got paid $50 and had to live in other people's houses. And there was just like this small time charm. And so the characters in the town became equally important to the baseball players, right?

And so I wanted to take that same. Apply that same logic to this town in Wales, that that team, the Wrexham team means so much to that town. And so, but you needed to have those characters. And they are quirky. And they're lovable and they have their reasons for why the team means so as much to 'em from weighing the bartender who's literally attached to the stadium to the woman Annette, who is a widow, and she found her second family.

She was an empty nester. Her kids had already gone off to college and so she was lonely and so she became a fan and then the fans became sort of like her surrogate family. And I think that's so important with sports stories because. It tethers you to something that's more than just like the stat lines and things like that.

So it was such a great opportunity. So I just led with the idea like, people are gonna watch this show or they're gonna start watching it because Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney are there. But then if I can make people care about these towns folk, then they're going naturally become invested in the team and it'll come full circle.

So I just wanted to kind of like paint that portrait. And the last thing I'll say about it is it was a really interesting opportunity because the show was green lit, I basically just went there and I had to do two weeks of quarantine, myself and a line producer, my producer, Drew Palone went there and we just started meeting people.

And so we built it from the inside out. So I was already there. I was kinda like meeting people in the town and even before players and management like people in the town. People on the inside of the football franchise knew that we were there, but no one else did. So we kind of got to walk around and get an idea of the feel for the town and its texture and we built it from there, from the inside out.

Meg: Which is amazing 'cause it really does work. I mean, not that I don't like movie stars and soccer, I get it. But I wouldn't have kept watching because my, what really drew me in was the characters of the town and how your show. Sometimes would just take almost a theme, right? Like it seems to me that the show was taking a thematic, sometimes you're following one person in like a particular player or a particular towns person, but other times it seems thematic in terms of you're picking a theme for the show and then showing different townspeople around that.

Is that, am I wrong or, and were you doing that? I guess my question is, A, is that true? And B, in terms of finding episodes, you've gotten there, you're seeing all these people. Are you just taking lots and lots of footage and then we'll find it in edit and we're gonna shape shows and edit?

Or did you kind of have a plan? Did you have to kind of lock down what those episodes would be while you're shooting?

John: No, you don't do that. You don't do that? Yeah, I think that's a fool's error. I mean, you can do that if like you have a very-- for example, Chef's Table is a very finite, like you have one voice that's the chef and you're gonna do nine shoot days, and usually those chefs have written a book, so you know what you're doing and The Playbook, another series I do, was the same way.

It's, here's this coach's story. We know what that arc is so you can kind of figure out what the. Theme is, and it's all interview based, so like you just cater your, but when you talk about an episodic doc series that has unraveling storylines, yeah, you have a loose idea what the themes are gonna be, but it's not until you get in the edit.

So yeah, for Welcome to Wrexham and we shot two seasons, probably over a thousand hours of footage. And then whether you're being like really deliberate with those themes or not. Every episode kind of organically finds its own theme and sometimes they become like the header subconsciously or consciously.

Like you always gotta have a theme, like whether you're talking about it or not, like that's that through arc that kinda keeps everything together.

Meg: Are you working with a documentary writer? I know that some documentaries have writers that come in. Are they? Which I don't even understand what that is.

I have to be honest. Or you considered the writer of the documentary 'cause you are doing it yourself. How do you find the episodes? How do you do it?

John: So, it's so funny you asked me that because just a week or two ago, I was having this conversation with one of my editors and I was literally like, why the, what the fuck is a writer on a documentary?

I haven't, I mean, I get, and I, what I was saying to him is yeah, I guess if you're doing like voiceover and you have someone that's writing the voiceover, which I've done some of that. And he who knows more than me was like, well, I think it's just like a different definite, like writing is probably the wrong word, but it's become the word and it's really who's like organizing the thought process through the sound bites that you hear are the thoughts that come through scenes.

And so in that way, you know who is the writer for the shows? When you're doing multiple episodes, like I'm usually working with. Up to five, six editors. Each editor in a perfect world has a story producer, so that person's doing a lot of like the rough draft writing. See, and then I'm kind of watching cuts and then I'm giving notes.

And so you could say I'm doing like a kind of a fine cut version of it.

Meg: Right.

John: So, but it is a really collaborative process, especially the post part. You can do a field thing. Where a lot of times the field is completely separate from post. Like I like to have an over, overlap, like I'm usually the connection between field and post, but I often like to use field producers or super supervising producers in the field that then roll into Post because they have the shooter's knowledge of what the intent was in the field.

That's often very helpful. It's also really helpful to have people that are looking at the footage for the first time. And not being and seeing what it is instead of what you wanted it to be 'cause

Meg: Right. Yes. I, that's why having people read your script, that's what that... yeah. That moment.

John: Yeah. I call it shooter's memory, my shooter's memory is this was amazing, but now you need to look at it and tell me if it was actually good.

Meg: And did your, are you as the director saying, okay, for this episode, story producer. I really loved these moments building up to this. And you're kind of giving them almost an outline, rough view of it, and then they're going into the footage and trying to shape that and find it with picking the shots and the moments.

Is that right?

John: Yeah. Yes. Sometimes it happens. Reverse engineer, just, it depends on how busy you are. Like we like to try to outline the episodes and if in a perfect world we'll have produced hot sheets or just like kind of a rough sketch of what we shot in the field so they can go off that. And if I'm writing my own hot sheets or someone else's, I'd like them to sort of try to describe what the creative intent at the time was.

What it was for the scene. So then the story producer's using that, and then they're starting to pull the soundbites and build the scene that way. A lot of times if we're getting really busy and there's multiple episodes going on at the same time, or oftentimes I'll be in the field and then post is happening at the same time.

They're just kind of like doing their version and we're talking on the phone every once in a while and it's not until I see a rough cut and then I'm like, okay, that's your version. And then we sort of collaborate from there and start moving things around. And try to re recast it a little bit. So again, like there's a million ways to do it.

Meg: In essence, it's writing, but with the material, right? You're, you have to have a great story sense and you have to hold it through all those different episodes, right? In terms of how it's gonna move. And it's all, a lot of the story thinking. What's one of the most challenging story problems you ever had on any of your shows?

John: I think this, I think one example, which I, you say it's a problem, but it's also like one of the challenges I like the most is trying to come at something that you've seen a million times in doing it fresh and different, for example, and we'll use Welcome to Wrexham when we were talking about that.

So the first season ended up being, what, 18 episodes or something like that? Every time you have a football or soccer game, you kind of wanna do it a little different, yeah. And the note I always give, it's if we just do it chronologically like this happened, then this happened, they might as well just watch the game.

Meg: Right?

John: You gotta be layering story. And what I like to do is try to find something that happened with an individual player that will amplify that story arc or the theme that we're going on that episode. And then you start intercutting like some kind of thought, whether it's a talking head or an interview bite.

So you're either kind of like closing or bringing some kind of catharsis at that moment, or you're introducing a new problem. And so you have to just look at everyone. And then if you've done it one way in episode one, you can't do it that way again in episode two.

Meg: I agree.

John: So then it becomes a challenge.

It's like, how do you keep that continually fresh? And if it's a sports series, you know you're gonna have a bunch of games. Right. And so, for episode or season one of Welcome to Wrexham, one of my favorite fun ones was this one. Their striker, Ollie Palmer joined the team and it was his first game and kind of intercut him, getting integrated into the team.

And then we used the song, I think it's a Busta Rhymes song like I'm a Motherfucking Beast, which is one of the other advantages of working with big celebrities is you actually get your music budgets approved, whereas if you're not, like you don't get the, you don't get the needle drop track.

And it all led up to him his first game. He scored a goal in his first game, and so it all just flowed perfectly together to this crescendo in the music, I'm a motherfucking beast. And he scores and you're like, we had this great shot. One of our camera guys was like Leighton Cox, who's actually from Wrexham originally. He's a steady cam guy. We just found he just was in the perfect place at the right time and like he scores the goal and he runs over to the crowd and he like leans over the wall and he screams and he is got this profile of him just like screaming and like the music comes in, I'm a motherfucking beast.

So it almost looks like he's screaming the word. And it's just like finding those little like moments like that become both the challenge, the struggle and the opportunity.

Meg: And knowing like what you said, that you're looking for some catharsis, like you're looking for this arcing emotional story to clima-, have their climax there. So I love all the storytelling thinking that's going on. Did you ever, in any of your shows, discover something in the Post that maybe changed the entire idea or arc of the show? Or has, have they all kind of stayed? I guess I'm thinking like, what's happening to me right now.

I'm like, well, this is not working. Did you ever run into, you don't have to be specific, 'cause I know that might be privileged, but just as a, as an idea, does that ever happen and how did you handle it?

John: I think all the time because I, that's one of the things that I tell. Younger people that I now work with, it's like the greatest opportunity documentary is the, is keeping your eyes, the lens, open to the opportunity, and it's about discovery.

You don't, if you go in and you like, oh, I'm gonna tell the story of this player, this character. I mean, it just happened. Now it happens all the time. Like especially in team environments. I know I'm talking about sports a lot, which is funny because people think of me as a sports guy.

I'm like, I swear to God I'm not a sports guy. I do a lot of sports stuff. You can decide from day one that like here are five eight characters. And I actually that's, this is really interesting because people want to know that right off the bat.

They give you the money.

John: So, yeah. And so you kind of like pitch who they are, they're gonna change.

And something along the way, whether it's something in a game or in life or something that just justifies a character's entry into the storyline. And literally I'm up against an air date on this Tides that Bind, the Alabama series. And just this morning we just realized like, you know what, the reason this episode isn't working is 'cause we haven't introduced this guy as a character.

And so we do. And then it just works perfectly. So you have to be willing and open to that sort of discovery. And, you shoot, that's also one of the most important things for me is that. You have to plan, you have to plan to be prepared, and you have to, set up a schedule and all this stuff and you gotta stay within budget, but you have to be open to the opportunity.

And that's actually the thing that keeps me going is because there are these moments where I get to film something that I completely didn't expect to happen. And those aren't my, even my greatest moments in my professional career, they're often some of the greatest moments in my life. 'cause it's like you're literally in this place that you're privileged to be at. Most people wouldn't get to do that.

And then suddenly something unfolds and it's completely authentic. And we live in a world too where there's a lot of cynicism, especially about, 'cause the last 25, 30 years of reality tv, you kind of feel like, oh, the producers made them do that or this.

And yes, there are times where we set something back up. But there are other times where it just becomes completely authentic and just happens. And it's like, those are the moments you really are pointing to that are really special and you have to build around them and make them work.

Meg: And I do think that is happening in our heads as screenwriters, meaning we started to go this direction and suddenly that character is shifting in our, almost like we're receiving them, right, from the muses. And they're not playing along, they're showing a different side.

And sometimes it just takes courage as a writer to say, okay, go. What is she complaining about? What is this new thing? Is it what, why is she talking about her shoes? Because that authentic thing is starting to come in versus the kind of, like you said, archetypes you pitched.

And it does take courage to allow that to happen. And I think, so it's very much the same. So. How about working with talent? You've worked with some like movie stars. Some of your sports are celebrities themselves, right? How do you, I guess I'm thinking about when we write true stories, right?

Those people don't want to necessarily talk about their vulnerabilities and their dark side. I'm thinking about the writer I know who did Johnny Cash and he had a really hard time getting Johnny Cash to even talk about, he was beaten by his father and he beat his wife. And that, who, those people don't necessarily want that.

And yet you, that's the authenticity that you're actually trying to go for as well. So what is your approach to opening them up or them trusting you, or?

John: Great question. I mean, it's really challenging. I'm hesitating because I'm not sure I actually enjoy that challenge.

One of the, one of the reasons that I was so attracted to Welcome to Wrexham is because I have worked with some big, sports celebrity talents, balance, and generally it comes with a lot of bureaucracy.

And like you said, they don't, if I was working, I'll just make up a scenario, like if I had, if I was working on a documentary about Ronaldo, who knows how much time I'm gonna get with him, and if I wanted to like, get a camera in his car and drive home to his house and then be able to follow him around, like that might take me four months to set up with his agent and PR and then even getting in the car, I gotta make sure this is happening, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then and then that entire process subconsciously for that person. It's becoming produced, so you're losing the sense of authenticity and stuff, but also what I've realized through time is like the difference in lifestyle and like what, what matters to like an athlete at the fifth tier of soccer, which is the Wrexham league when we got there and Ronaldo.

It's 95% same. There's a statistic that like human beings have 98% commonality with the earthworm. There's only 2% different organically. And the difference in that, whatever percentage between Paul Mullen of the Wrexham Red Dragons team and Ronaldo is all about money, celebrity, and ego, probably.

The different, the things that are similar are the things that the audience that are gonna watch this show are gonna relate to. Love of family, a desire, these things, the things that make you human, which are flaws. So I would much rather work with the person that I can just say, text or say, Hey bro, can I jump in your car and go home with you today?

They're like, sure, come on. I'm gonna get 90% of the same thing. So I generally prefer to do that now. It is an interesting challenge to work with people that are at that level. And I had spent a year with a tennis star, Novak Djokovich traveling in the room, and we ended up not being able to finish that doc. I actually think he's finishing it now.

It was just a time and circumstance thing and it was really a fascinating experience for me because here's a guy that has been really famous, or at least the opportunity for fame was present in his family and his mind since he was 11 years old. And so, to, to him, like everything seems normal and natural, but from the outside looking in and it's like you're a really famous person and sometimes you don't even know it, but you're dictating the way people react around you. You don't know because it's the only reality you've ever known. But I know, and so I was always looking for the, like those little cracks, those like moments that made, that felt like universal.

And because of all the other reasons I just mentioned we go to Australian Open with him and I'm like, I want to follow him from this thing. And go over to the tennis center and go into the elevator. And I made mistakes on that too. Like I was trying to shoot that with a big crew at the time, and so we take that moment, it's produced by his manager and all this stuff, and it just feels produced because he's being told to do this.

And then suddenly the DP is Hey, can we have him walk out of the elevator again, because I'm not sure if I got my focus. I'm like, oh, well that's gonna, that's definitely

through that process like. I realized that what Novak actually wanted was just to be really small. And so one day he was like, just my entire crew was off that day and his people called me. He was like, Novak wants you to meet him at the botanical garden. So I just grabbed like a small camera, 'cause I self shoot.

And I went over there and for the first time I felt like I saw the real Novak because suddenly all the noise went away. And if you can find that moment with someone that's bigger than life in terms of celebrity or whatever. That's a really special place to work in, but it is hard to get to that spot.

Meg: But I love this from a writing standpoint, because what a wonderful writing exercise to do. You've got this big, larger, been life character. He's not in your imagination letting you in. Take him to the botanical gardens as a writing exercise. Take him to his, where he grew up. In the bedroom he grew up in.

Find the crack, find, put your character in a place, whether it's in your movie or not, it doesn't matter that you can find the crack. And take the noise of the pressure of the script and the story and it has to be right and where's your set pieces and just take it away and just do a writing exercise and let him talk to you.

I think that's such a great exercise. The cracks, and it makes me think of the wonderful scene in Devils Wears Prada with Meryl Streep without her makeup on and she had a fight with her husband and she happened to witness it. Right. And get to sit down and talk to her for a minute. And how incredible that, it's like the whole movie to me in that moment.

Right. But it's just a moment. It's just a crack into that, that private, authentic person behind the, the person that they're presenting. And our characters will present like that to us sometimes. They don't want us to come around. It's a really weird thing. I know we're creating them, but they won't let you around because they feel protective. It's so interesting. I just, I love it so much.

John: I love that point too, and I think something that I've grown to appreciate 'cause I've, I was never someone who was like, I want to be a feature filmmaker. I wanna make the next, I wanna be the next Spielberg. But I've only ever wanted to make docs, so I was like, I want to make docs.

And so I had to kind of grow to appreciate the scripted side, but now I reference more scripted stuff than I do unscripted stuff when trying to find, 'cause I'm not going for story beats. I'm going for feelings. You're trying to create emotions and after watching certain series over and over again, it becomes very clear that like the writers just have to live in the skin of the character they're creating.

And you almost have to be like, no, Lily wouldn't want that. Exactly. It's almost like having a split personality. And you can start when a character is I'm rewatching Breaking Bad right now for the fifth time. And every time you watch it, it's oh, there, there was such an intent in terms of feeling with Jesse or Walt that the only way you really get to that is to sort of try to live in the skin of that character, which for me, if like I was interviewer in this, on this call, I would be like, how do you share a character with a writing room?

Like, how do you do that? I would want to be like very selfish and keep that character. I was like, no, Bobby, you've only been in this writing room for one year. There's no way you're touching Lily.

Meg: You do get very protective of them, and as a writer, now imagine you have to hand it over to a director. And you don't even get to be upset and you have no-

John: who's that jerk? You don't want him touching your-

Meg: Why did they cast that person? Or and you do, there's a letting go, right? Like you have your version and that Lily, as you say, will live forever with you. But she changed because she became someone else's and. It is a little mourning process can happen. And I love what you said about you're going for emotion and it's so interesting 'cause it's exactly why we just threw away two months worth of work because without even knowing it, I would've told you two months ago, of course I'm going for emotion.

But I was really going, trying to figure out story points. I was trying to figure out all these story points and how do we get this story point in and how do we, will the audience understand this story point? And that's why it got so gross and not gross, but like crumbly because I don't, emotionally, I'm not going for the feeling.

And it's a love story, man. It's a love story. Let's just get to the lovers. Why are we spending all this time on all this stuff? And when I just let myself go for the love story and the feeling I, yes. Some part of my brain is very worried about the logic and the will and the he and is it all the, I'm just ignoring it for right now.

I'm just going for the feeling of it. So much more fun. So much more fun. So I wanted to ask you in terms of feeling, we talk a lot in this show, we call it lava in terms of personal themes that come in and looking at your work, one theme, and I'm sure there's many that seems to be in there, is, kind of underdogs whether they're trying to lead or create a team, kind of staying true and authentic to their core, their values, or discovering them as they go.

And I just wondered how that's personal to you. I know that you began and you've talked about, working with, developed and developing an impoverished, underprivileged communities. Do you see any theme that's just from what you are interested in emotionally, thematically, that you're drawn to those projects and or how did having that piece of your life where you were working in third world countries kind of influence now what you're doing with sports cooking and other topics.

John: Well, now I feel like we're getting some therapy territory, so thank you.

Meg: Well, it's awesome, man. It's art.

John: Yeah. Yeah. I, it's interesting 'cause I don't know if I've ever put that fine a point on it.

'cause the underdog thing. I don't think I've ever thought about that, but I can see why you would think that. And I am drawn to stories of places off the beaten path, whether it's that figuratively or literally. And so you could look at underdogs as like the off the beaten path character.

So I definitely agree with you there. Yeah. And the story is I was, I was 26, 27 and my father was an academic corner of the university. My mom was a school teacher, both children of the baby boom generation coming outta World War II, where it's you gotta make sure you can get a job, that you can pay your bills.

And so like filmmaking and art seemed like the dumbest thing in the world. And so, for a long time I was just trying to smash this square peg in a red round hole as like an academic myself. And I went to South Africa to a master's degree and I gravitated towards international development and working with, underprivileged children and, townships in South Africa and street kids. And ultimately for one reason or another I decided like I actually had this really acute moment of clarity where I went in this basement where all the other master's thesis would live like hard binded.. After you finished it, you spent two or three years.

And there was literally like an Indiana Jones layer of dust over these books. And I was like, so this is what's gonna happen with like, all this work that I've invested all this time in. And so I decided to try to turn my thesis into a documentary. Because I wanted it to live on and hopefully impact someone and hopefully promote some form of change.

So I came at documentary from that point of view, so I used the rest of my financial aid money to buy a Sony PD 150, which was like a $3,000 camera back then and mini dvs, and I just started shooting. I didn't know what I was doing. And then I got back to the States and I learned how to edit and I took a community college class and I started working all these things together.

So yeah, I would probably connect those dots. Like the reason I wanted to work with people from disenfranchised communities is because they didn't have representation. And then I'm attracted to these smaller backwaters like Trinidad, Colorado and the Pecos League, or Wrexham and Wales, which is very much the underdog town and kind of shit on by other people in the area.

It's kind of like a backwater, at least it was before Ryan Reynolds showed up. So yeah, I think there is a little bit of that sort of will to give the unrepresented some representation. And that's kind of evolved into giving them character and giving them some sense of joy and going back to Welcome to Wrexham to continue to answer that question.

One of the things that was most important to me is the show Sunderland 'til I Die. We kept on being a reference point, which is also about a soccer club, and I would watch that show and they made everyone feel like such sad sack. It's a great series, by the way. I'm not like shitting on it, but

Meg: No, I know. It's the context. Yeah.

John: But totally it was like, it leaves you with this feeling like if the teen loses, like there's no sunrise the next morning. And the one thing I know about the British is they have the best self-deprecating senses of humor. Humor is like a coping mechanism. It's a source of healing.

So I needed the show to have that sense and represent that in a real way. And if I go back to the documentary I was trying to make with street kids, the funnest part of making that documentary is, you get to know these street kids really well and they're super funny 90% of the time and their situations are tragic, but they're still kids and like they actually loved being on the street.

And the thing that was hard is convincing 'em is no, this is bad for you. You should go somewhere else. And like right after Halloween, one time this kid found a Spider-Man. Like this street kid found a Spider-Man costume. And so for a month there was a Spider-Man Street kid running around the streets of Cape Town, South Africa.

And like I found that so joyful. And to give the underrepresented, not only that sort of sad sack treatment, but always show that there's like life and joy and survival in those situations was so important to me. So I don't know, I always gravitate to those little moments.

Meg: I see that in all of your work, I see that in all of your work, all of the, it's so respectful to say yes they need a voice. They need to be heard and seen, and guess what? And they're full of joy and they're people and they have really joyful moments and silly moments and funny moments and sad moments. And and I, that's what I love so much about your work is all of those levels of humanity and that you, it's so not condescending.

It's so, you, you respect so much the people that you're whose lives you're entering. I just love the joy that you bring to those. That's why I love Wrexham. I love it so much because I love the pa pathos and humanity and pain that you were able to get to, but also that incredible joy. It's amazing.

So we ask a couple of craft questions on different guests. So I'd love to have you approach this from your vantage point. What do you think about, or what would be for you? A great character introduction, which is interesting 'cause you just talked about, you're realizing you had to introduce this character.

So what's a great character introduction for your kind of storytelling?

John: It's probably very similar to yours in the mechanical sense of one that alleviates the need for lots of exposition. So it's like a scene where you can just like drop in and it's you kind of know what this character's all about by that singular moment.

And oftentimes that becomes like the cold open to the first episode of a series or a future doc or something because you learn so much.

Meg: Do you find that it's, do you find that it's them in behavior? Or is there a pre, and maybe there is no answer to this, but is there a predominance of, when somebody's doing something, making a choice, having a problem, and responding to it, more of who they are versus them just kind of in a situation, a scene.

At least that's how I kind, I try to approach it from a. When you've got to create it out of nothing. Do you see any similarities in a great character introduction in terms of what they're doing or how we're meeting them?

John: I mean in terms of what they're doing? I would say it should have some sense of surprise.

Like I can give you an example that, have you ever heard of the documentary film Undefeated?

Meg: Sure.

John: Which is it's about this like Memphis high school football team that didn't win for a million years, and they got this coach and I forgot the name of the filmmakers, but they're very talented.

So, it's this scene it's a a feature doc about this Memphis high school football team, inner city, all black team, white coach, and. This one player gets picked on or bullied and he literally leaves a team meeting and jumps over a fence and goes home. And the filmmakers go home with him and he is behind his house and he is got pet turtles and he is playing with one and he is talking to the off-camera producer, which I actually really love 'cause I don't like to try to pretend like the camera's not there.

I love like that conversation with behind the camera, even if you have to keep the voice in. 'cause that's, that is part of the reality in that moment. And this always makes me cry, but he's like: "turtles are a lot like us, they've got this hard shell, they gotta be so hard all the time, but deep down, they're just soft in their skin and bones."

And it was like such a perfect metaphor for the situation that kid was going through. But not only that kid, but all of these kids in this inner city environment that they were growing up in, they had to just be tough, but on the inside they're like kind of soft and he was hurt because he was being picked on and bullied.

And so there's a level of like metaphor that I think is like a perfect character introduction because again, like you don't want it to be exposition, you want it to be lyrical. So I always felt like that moment was such a perfect character introduction or a way to get to know someone, especially when they speak in, in metaphor, it's like easily digestible and also lets the audience interpret it in a way that most that resonates the most with them. I love, so I'm always looking for those moments.

Meg: And I love that character because he's so insightful and he's so honest and he's so vulnerable and you know that he opened up, that you just love him.

I like, I love him right now, just hearing his story and I wanna know what happens. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John: You wanna give him a hug.

Meg: I do. I want to give him a hug. And see what, make sure he is okay. What do you do when you get stuck?

John: Oh, man. I mean, I'm stuck right now. I generally try to unplug for a little while and just walk away and then come back at it.

But also I can't put enough of a fine point on it. Like a documentary director is not like. The auteur like up on the hill, like pointing his finger, do this, do that. Like it really is a collaboration. Like I wouldn't do this if I wasn't collaborating with amazing editors and producers and things like that.

Sometimes it's like letting go. I said this to one of my editors the other day who I think I was over noting, and then he finally was like, okay, I just need, I need a day to like work on this. I'm like, okay, cool. So I just let him alone and then I remember because I literally, we were up against a deadline too.

And before he sent what I needed to watch and before I hit play, I was like, please work. Please work. Please work. And like it was fucking,

Meg: That's what I do with my writing partner. Please have gone away and made it work. Please.

John: It was beautiful. So sometimes you just have to get outta your own way and let other talented people take a swing at it and then get to the film festival and act like it's all your own work.

Meg: Fair enough. From a writing standpoint. I know, but from a writing standpoint, sometimes you have to be brave and say, this doesn't work. Can you read it? Yeah. And just talk it out with me. And that's letting that other person in to, but it's very vulnerable because you're handing them something that doesn't work.

And we do ask people sometimes on our workshop site, tell us the thing that's not working. That's hard, right? To say, I know this doesn't work, but how else can we help you? How else can we, we need to know something that doesn't, that you think doesn't work. So I love that.

John: Yeah.

Meg: Well, listen, we always end our episode asking the same three questions, so we're gonna ask you now, and I just love this conversation so much.

What brings you the most joy when it comes to your work?

John: Adding music to it.

Meg: That's good. I love that.

John: I mean, but what that means is I actually shouldn't say that. 'cause the note I always give people is the music shouldn't do the work like it should be there, but the music does help. Take it all the way there and it starts to feel like. You took something that is raw and turned it into art, and that's a really good feeling.

Meg: That's a beautiful feeling. Yeah. All right. What pisses you off about your work?

John: I don't know if I should say, because I wanna say bad notes.

Meg: People have said it.

John: I mean, I I guess I would say that my version of that is like, notes that are in are given for the wrong reason, I would say. Because sometimes you can really feel that oh, this is a note that's being given out of fear instead of progress.

So that, I think, pissed off is a tough word, I'd say disappointed. Yeah, because like you're gonna, there's often times you're just gonna lose that fight and you have to make compromises. And that's part of it too. Like it's a collaboration, but it is hard sometimes where you have some notes where it's like the intent of the note is not for the better.

It's out of fear that rather than...

Meg: Fear-based notes are the hardest.

Okay. What advice would you give your younger self if you got to sit down and have a cup of coffee with you maybe out there? Looking at those masters, dusty, masters books what advice would you give your younger self?

John: You see that sign up there on the wall?

Meg: I don't, but what is it? What does it say?

John: It says, just fucking create. And I, that's been like a little note card folded on half of my desk for probably 15 years now. Because I mean, you, it's, there's always, whether it's in your world, it's like writer's block and in mine it's like, it is mostly on the post side where you're like trying to figure something out and you get distracted or walk away, and sometimes you just have to sit down and be like, not be afraid to just try things differently. Like just fucking create something and then react to it and then try it again. Just fucking keep creating and so that's just something that I, I probably learned 10 years in, or I started.

I remember I was sitting at this very desk one night at two in the morning, and I remember just saying it to myself looking at a timeline, like just fucking create, just do something. And so I started doing that and I think your version would be like that stream of consciousness where you just let yourself write and you go and then you edit it back later.

It's just, just let yourself do that though. I do have a practical advice that I was thinking about because of something we said before we started. Getting started, which is I feel like this career, this entertainment based career, the one practical piece of advice I give to people like ask for advice is like just start with being on time and following through.

Because there's so many people that just don't, like if you know you get your first PA job or like associate producer or whatever, it's just just show up on time. And then if you say you're gonna do it by the deadline. You say you're gonna do it and follow through and you'll be ahead by 75% of everyone else.

Meg: And that's the same for writing. You know what? You wanna be a writer? Show up, sit at your desk and follow through. That's what you have to do. A lot and a lot of it you're gonna throw away and you're gonna go again and again, but just, you know what, show up and follow through. I love it. I love it so much.

John: Yeah.

Meg: Thank you so much for coming on the show.

John: Thank you for having me. It was very fun.

Meg: Thanks so much for tuning into the Screenwriting Live. Please check out our workshop site 'cause we do have some new workshops dropping soon. So come on over. We've got a great community over there and I love, Lorien and I love hearing your stories.

And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.